https://simpleflying.com/sukhoi-superjet-new/amp/

According to simple flying, the new version will be powered by the PD-8. Like the MC-21 Russian built aircraft seem to be moving away from having western built engines.

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

Whilst the original Superjet was a technically sound aircraft. There were considerable maintenance and support issues. This meant that it's European operators Cityjet and Brussels Airlines only operated the type for a short period.

Metchalus wrote:

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

Well, not that the SSJ had been attractive in foreign markets up to now...

dcajet wrote:

Metchalus wrote:

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

Well, not that the SSJ had been attractive in foreign markets up to now...

I can only think of two airlines that flew SSJs in the West and neither do now.

This is more to enable Iran sales.

I find it facinating that the PD-8 is the Russian part of the SAM-146, effectively replacing the SAFRAN core.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... e-engining

The new core is a higher pressure ratio, so the engine should gain a small amount of efficiency. I was unable to determine if fan diameter increased (one would think so, but I do not know).

Lightsaber

dcajet wrote:

Metchalus wrote:

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

Well, not that the SSJ had been attractive in foreign markets up to now...

A new engine if more efficient and more reliable could make the Sukhoi attractive again. They also would need more service stations in the west.

The Sukhoi SSJ was a commercial disaster in Europe and North America. Neither airlines nor manufacturer were happy with the outcome

Any airline with a wide choice of manufacturer is going to be very cautious about Sukhoi
I support lightsaber's comments - the target markets are Russia, Iran and other countries where airlines have limited choice of aircraft

The aircraft will never make it again in the west. It had its chance with Cityjet and their Brussels Airlines ops. Already then the aircraft wasn't as nice as the competition.

Relationships with Russia have deteriorated even further since so that doesn't help. It's a shame but this will be for Russia, the countries Russia invades/occupies/has significant control over (Kazakstan, Belarus maybe Ukraine in a few weeks) and Iran.

Will only be successful in Russia. So far any attempts of Russian airplanes to be sold abroad failed on the absolutely horrible support, availability of spare parts and difficult maintenance.
Add a sub par product when it comes to interior, training etc and no sane airline will go for it. Even Russian airlines are cancelling orders and withdrawing it from use.

Now with Russian built engines you are set for even more trouble.

Zaf wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Metchalus wrote:

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

Well, not that the SSJ had been attractive in foreign markets up to now...

A new engine if more efficient and more reliable could make the Sukhoi attractive again. They also would need more service stations in the west.

Agreed. But the SSJ has a really horrible reputation in the West for after-sale support (not that unusual for many Russian products). Just look at CityJet in Europe and Interjet in Mexico. A lot of Western operators won't consider the SSJ, which appears to be a pretty nice airplane, because they can get a comparable or better airplane from Airbus (the A220) or Embraer (the E-190/195-2), with a reliable source of manufacturer support. This hurts the SSJ, even if it is a lot cheaper than Western models.

It was quite disappointing Brussels Airlines didn't hold on to their SSJs just a little while longer so I could fly on one from Krakow to Brussels in July 2018.

af773atmsp wrote:

It was quite disappointing Brussels Airlines didn't hold on to their SSJs just a little while longer so I could fly on one from Krakow to Brussels in July 2018.

I only saw it once in the wild out of the window of the ATR I was flying, it was parked right next to us.

Only time I saw one was one of Interjet's taxiing at SAT.

Well, let’s face it. Why should it be succesfull in ‘the west’ in the first place. If it sells within Russia, Iran and countless other countries considered as ‘not the west’ it simply means that all the money is not floating to the USA or Europe. This alone is a good reason to develop these aircrat types such as the SSJ, C919 or Mc-21.
I can only see positives here, for all involved.

Metchalus wrote:

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

You can't reduce something below nonexistent.

Seriously, different engines won't make any difference in "western markets". It may help SSJ sales in sanctioned countries like Iran, Syria, etc.

Wasn't a shortage of certain engine parts due to sanctions (and thus an awful lot of time spent out of service) the main reason for the SSJ's lack of competitiveness in the west ?

marosbts wrote:

Add a sub par product when it comes to interior, training etc and no sane airline will go for it.

One would have to upgrade to the business jet version for a much better appreciation of the SSJ's interior.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raHGMSU4-WQ

Guess Russian billionaires will have "preferential" access to readily available parts and services.

scbriml wrote:

Seriously, different engines won't make any difference in "western markets". It may help SSJ sales in sanctioned countries like Iran, Syria, etc.

It's a given that the SSJ's best prospects remain in markets within Russia's sphere of influence. This raises the question whether it would be worth the trouble to
NEO already built frames (if any) or retrofit existing frames in service if feasible

scbriml wrote:

Metchalus wrote:

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

You can't reduce something below nonexistent.

Seriously, different engines won't make any difference in "western markets". It may help SSJ sales in sanctioned countries like Iran, Syria, etc.

A market may have just opened up in Qatar

DALCE wrote:

Well, let’s face it. Why should it be succesfull in ‘the west’ in the first place. If it sells within Russia, Iran and countless other countries considered as ‘not the west’.

Ok, I admit it, I actually laughed out loud at this phrase. “Countless other countries”?! These are not stars in the sky. There are literally only 195 countries in the world. And of those, how many do you think are either A) under some type of sanction by “the west”, and B) not under influence from China, who is promoting their own domestic airliner industry? You named two - Russia and Iran. We can also add Syria and Belarus. And? Where are these “countless other countries”? At a stretch: I can see a few SSJ’s in India, maybe Indonesia (less likely now). Cuba, if they are gifted away. A few in the Central Asian states. Honestly tho, it wouldn’t take all 10 digits of your hands to count where they will go.

Russian engineers are brilliant! Unfortunately, the same cultural mindset that makes Russians so fiercely independent also makes them bad business partners.

Hamlet69

seansasLCY wrote:

The aircraft will never make it again in the west. It had its chance with Cityjet and their Brussels Airlines ops. Already then the aircraft wasn't as nice as the competition.

Relationships with Russia have deteriorated even further since so that doesn't help. It's a shame but this will be for Russia, the countries Russia invades/occupies/has significant control over (Kazakstan, Belarus maybe Ukraine in a few weeks) and Iran.

It was not that it wasn't "as nice" it's that there were service part issues.

Higher services expectations, like global spare parts availability, increased software networking and such will make it harder for "exotic" manufacturers on the global market in the future. Add sanctions and western suppliers refraining from taking business risks under unstable political and legal conditions in the east and Russia will have even harder times ahead exporting its airliners. We have seen how almost all Russian airlines dropped soviet types and preferred used old western types big style before upgrading to newer builds. I remember the very limited engine service life of Soviet engines and bad spare parts availability being the main concerns.

Devilfish wrote:

It's a given that the SSJ's best prospects remain in markets within Russia's sphere of influence.

That is absolutely correct.

Like Boeing's best prospects are in the markets within USA's sphere of influence.

The Russian's are not stupid. It is absolutely understandable, that they want to get rid of "western" (especially US) made parts in their a/c to avoid becoming victims of political bully (diplomatically correct called "sanctions").

Many of the posters here seem to underestimate the Russian avaition industry and the Russian industry in general. They seem to forget, that for many years Russian rockets were the only means to transport US astronauts to the ISS and back. And unlike the Space Shuttle, without any accidents.

rbavfan wrote:

seansasLCY wrote:

The aircraft will never make it again in the west. It had its chance with Cityjet and their Brussels Airlines ops. Already then the aircraft wasn't as nice as the competition.

Relationships with Russia have deteriorated even further since so that doesn't help. It's a shame but this will be for Russia, the countries Russia invades/occupies/has significant control over (Kazakstan, Belarus maybe Ukraine in a few weeks) and Iran.

It was not that it wasn't "as nice" it's that there were service part issues.

I’m aware of that. I was speaking more from a passenger perspective. I was a regular on BMA-BRU and the plane just felt cheap compared to western models. Although I never had any delays on it.

Many of the posters here seem to underestimate the Russian avaition industry and the Russian industry in general. They seem to forget, that for many years Russian rockets were the only means to transport US astronauts to the ISS and back. And unlike the Space Shuttle, without any accidents.

This hurt ego attitude doesn't help. It is no question that they do have smart engineers. But the question is if they can sell their products under the current and future conditions successfully in the west? It doesn't look like due to issues way above the Super Jet.

seansasLCY wrote:

I was a regular on BMA-BRU and the plane just felt cheap compared to western models. Although I never had any delays on it.

Likewise my experience was that the cabin felt plasticky and cheap, lots of rattles and consistently the hardest landing for single bogey landing gear Ive ever felt. I can only imagine how that Aeroflot one felt that slammed into runway.
No thanks.

I have seen some MS-21 mock up and their cabin looked quite nice to be honest. So they seem to have learned their lesson. One of the main selling points was that the aisle got widened to make passing the food trolley inflight possible and easy for passengers and to speed up ground times.

Noshow wrote:

Many of the posters here seem to underestimate the Russian avaition industry and the Russian industry in general. They seem to forget, that for many years Russian rockets were the only means to transport US astronauts to the ISS and back. And unlike the Space Shuttle, without any accidents.

This hurt ego attitude doesn't help. It is no question that they do have smart engineers. But the question is if they can sell their products under the current and future conditions successfully in the west? It doesn't look like due to issues way above the Super Jet.

It is not a matter of selling it in the west. It is a matter of selling it all - even in Russia.

They see more and more sanctions coming out of the US and it is a matter of getting the parts in the first place, nothing to do with selling it in Iran. The C919 is heavily impacted by US sanctions and delayed - even though all customers are Chinese. China is now designing out western made components. I have heard of Western European companies designing out American and Israeli components like LIDARs for some applications and replace them Europe sourced components to reduce risk.

I believe the Superjet and MC-21 being redesigned with more Russian content is to preempt what might happen as a consequence of the Ukraine (and other) fights over securing political influence.

I believe in the long run, even Airbus will reduce the reliance on US components as US trade sanctions are occurring more and more frequently and widespread and the overall risk is becoming too high.

marosbts wrote:

Now with Russian built engines you are set for even more trouble.

That just means it's designed to be a sanctions buster.

Why would you buy these when the world will be flooded with servicable 737NGs, A32Xs, A330 once the rest of the world has upgraded to the latest NEOs and Maxes. Trade restrictions or not parts will be readily available through unofficial channels.
Short of airlines having their arms twisted there is no compelling reason to buy one of these against a cheap western plane with plenty of miles left on the clock.

AngMoh wrote:

I believe the Superjet and MC-21 being redesigned with more Russian content is to preempt what might happen as a consequence of the Ukraine (and other) fights over securing political influence.

I believe in the long run, even Airbus will reduce the reliance on US components as US trade sanctions are occurring more and more frequently and widespread and the overall risk is becoming too high.

That would be a wise move from Airbus. As an Airbus shareholder I can only support this.

Heinkel wrote:

AngMoh wrote:

I believe the Superjet and MC-21 being redesigned with more Russian content is to preempt what might happen as a consequence of the Ukraine (and other) fights over securing political influence.

I believe in the long run, even Airbus will reduce the reliance on US components as US trade sanctions are occurring more and more frequently and widespread and the overall risk is becoming too high.

That would be a wise move from Airbus. As an Airbus shareholder I can only support this.

The SSJ is a step back from the latest generation of aircraft. It would be tough to build a latest generation aircraft without GE, Raytheon Technologies, Honeywell, L3, or Northrop. The SSJ "Russification" isn't a NEO, it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.

If the Ukraine happens, aerospace exports to Russia will be halted by the EU. This would force the EU to ensure the USA is a closer ally... but that goes off topic.

The Russification of aircraft has concerns that other countries do not.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Heinkel wrote:

AngMoh wrote:

I believe the Superjet and MC-21 being redesigned with more Russian content is to preempt what might happen as a consequence of the Ukraine (and other) fights over securing political influence.

I believe in the long run, even Airbus will reduce the reliance on US components as US trade sanctions are occurring more and more frequently and widespread and the overall risk is becoming too high.

That would be a wise move from Airbus. As an Airbus shareholder I can only support this.

The SSJ is a step back from the latest generation of aircraft. It would be tough to build a latest generation aircraft without GE, Raytheon Technologies, Honeywell, L3, or Northrop. The SSJ "Russification" isn't a NEO, it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.

If the Ukraine happens, aerospace exports to Russia will be halted by the EU. This would force the EU to ensure the USA is a closer ally... but that goes off topic.

The Russification of aircraft has concerns that other countries do not.

Lightsaber

I don't agree that it is " it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.". If you look what the US has done with China, they have put Huawei on the banned list as well as many "defence" linked companies which include the companies behind the C919. They can not get parts from US and Europe even for domestic sales.

Russia is next. That means that the companies behind the Superjet and MC-21 will go on the banned list. That is no more SaM146 for Russia, which includes no engines even if the end customer is Aeroflot. From a Russian perspective, getting PD-8 and PD-14 engines ready is critical for domestic orders. We are going back to the 70s when Western and USSR aerospace were strictly separated.

lightsaber wrote:

Heinkel wrote:

AngMoh wrote:

I believe the Superjet and MC-21 being redesigned with more Russian content is to preempt what might happen as a consequence of the Ukraine (and other) fights over securing political influence.

I believe in the long run, even Airbus will reduce the reliance on US components as US trade sanctions are occurring more and more frequently and widespread and the overall risk is becoming too high.

That would be a wise move from Airbus. As an Airbus shareholder I can only support this.

The SSJ is a step back from the latest generation of aircraft. It would be tough to build a latest generation aircraft without GE, Raytheon Technologies, Honeywell, L3, or Northrop. The SSJ "Russification" isn't a NEO, it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.

If the Ukraine happens, aerospace exports to Russia will be halted by the EU. This would force the EU to ensure the USA is a closer ally... but that goes off topic.

The Russification of aircraft has concerns that other countries do not.

Lightsaber

According to another member, the failure of the SSJ sits squarely on the shoulders of the French engine partners. If true, substituting Russian made engines should turn the SSJ into a world beater.

I’ll keep the popcorn ready to see if that actually happens.

At least with the ARJ21 out there the SSJ can’t be worked as the absolute worst for reliability and support, so silver lining and all that.

Wouldn't PD-14 be too much power for SSJ?

The SAM146 wasn't ideal, but wasn't the only parts problem. Take it as my opinion as I posted information in old SSJ threads and I'm being too lazy.

When there are multiple problems, it is the fault of the prime.

AngMoh wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Heinkel wrote:

That would be a wise move from Airbus. As an Airbus shareholder I can only support this.

The SSJ is a step back from the latest generation of aircraft. It would be tough to build a latest generation aircraft without GE, Raytheon Technologies, Honeywell, L3, or Northrop. The SSJ "Russification" isn't a NEO, it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.

If the Ukraine happens, aerospace exports to Russia will be halted by the EU. This would force the EU to ensure the USA is a closer ally... but that goes off topic.

The Russification of aircraft has concerns that other countries do not.

Lightsaber

I don't agree that it is " it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.". If you look what the US has done with China, they have put Huawei on the banned list as well as many "defence" linked companies which include the companies behind the C919. They can not get parts from US and Europe even for domestic sales.

Russia is next. That means that the companies behind the Superjet and MC-21 will go on the banned list. That is no more SaM146 for Russia, which includes no engines even if the end customer is Aeroflot. From a Russian perspective, getting PD-8 and PD-14 engines ready is critical for domestic orders. We are going back to the 70s when Western and USSR aerospace were strictly separated.

The ban to Russia will be EU driven. If that happens, only Russia will be at fault. We can agree at that time there will be no choice but to obtain another engine.

We might indeed be going back in time to separated airspace. But that deserves to be discussed in another thread.

The SSJ was an interesting plane when launched. Vs. the E2 and A220, not so interesting anymore. It is a shame that politics is impacting aerospace again, but this is dual use technology.

How is the current SSJ dispatch reliability and utilization? If both are not high (over 99.5% dispatch and over 8 flights or hours per day), we could be discussing a potential that just wasn't realized.

Lightsaber

Late edit: SAFRAN claimed excellent dispatch reliability for the engine. I'd like to see a link on SAFRAN not meeting obligations. I've seen too many opinions here not based on reality to blame failures on anything but the true root cause(s).

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/sam146-en ... ght-hours/

AngMoh wrote:

I believe in the long run, even Airbus will reduce the reliance on US components as US trade sanctions are occurring more and more frequently and widespread and the overall risk is becoming too high.

You can't really contingency plan for the world order to collapse.

On the other hand, there should maybe be more second-sourcing of outside components and insourcing of single-source components. I think Boeing learned that, too. And certainly all the car manufacturers are learning about sourcing and supply in this brave new world we live in.

Airbus traditionally has a high share of US components, up to the point where the US is the lead Airbus nation by value supplied per individual airplane depending on customer selection of engines and avionics. It does not make sense for Airbus to move away from this. They even assemble and legally hand over aircraft in Canada and the US.
Airbus is NOT moving away from America.
And they won't install Russian engines to become "independent".

seansasLCY wrote:

rbavfan wrote:

seansasLCY wrote:

The aircraft will never make it again in the west. It had its chance with Cityjet and their Brussels Airlines ops. Already then the aircraft wasn't as nice as the competition.

Relationships with Russia have deteriorated even further since so that doesn't help. It's a shame but this will be for Russia, the countries Russia invades/occupies/has significant control over (Kazakstan, Belarus maybe Ukraine in a few weeks) and Iran.

It was not that it wasn't "as nice" it's that there were service part issues.

I’m aware of that. I was speaking more from a passenger perspective. I was a regular on BMA-BRU and the plane just felt cheap compared to western models. Although I never had any delays on it.

Russian manufacturers design based on military needs. They tend to be heavier & maintenance heavy. After all it does not matter if it's hard to maintain. We have people to do that and it keeps them busy. In the west it's all about keeping operating & employee cost down.

My one and only shot of it landing at MIA

c933103 wrote:

Wouldn't PD-14 be too much power for SSJ?

Yes but they are making a PD-8 for the SSJ.

https://www.aerospacetestinginternation ... j-new.html

lightsaber wrote:

The SAM146 wasn't ideal, but wasn't the only parts problem. Take it as my opinion as I posted information in old SSJ threads and I'm being too lazy.

When there are multiple problems, it is the fault of the prime.

AngMoh wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

The SSJ is a step back from the latest generation of aircraft. It would be tough to build a latest generation aircraft without GE, Raytheon Technologies, Honeywell, L3, or Northrop. The SSJ "Russification" isn't a NEO, it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.

If the Ukraine happens, aerospace exports to Russia will be halted by the EU. This would force the EU to ensure the USA is a closer ally... but that goes off topic.

The Russification of aircraft has concerns that other countries do not.

Lightsaber

I don't agree that it is " it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.". If you look what the US has done with China, they have put Huawei on the banned list as well as many "defence" linked companies which include the companies behind the C919. They can not get parts from US and Europe even for domestic sales.

Russia is next. That means that the companies behind the Superjet and MC-21 will go on the banned list. That is no more SaM146 for Russia, which includes no engines even if the end customer is Aeroflot. From a Russian perspective, getting PD-8 and PD-14 engines ready is critical for domestic orders. We are going back to the 70s when Western and USSR aerospace were strictly separated.

The ban to Russia will be EU driven. If that happens, only Russia will be at fault. We can agree at that time there will be no choice but to obtain another engine.

We might indeed be going back in time to separated airspace. But that deserves to be discussed in another thread.

The SSJ was an interesting plane when launched. Vs. the E2 and A220, not so interesting anymore. It is a shame that politics is impacting aerospace again, but this is dual use technology.

How is the current SSJ dispatch reliability and utilization? If both are not high (over 99.5% dispatch and over 8 flights or hours per day), we could be discussing a potential that just wasn't realized.

Lightsaber

Late edit: SAFRAN claimed excellent dispatch reliability for the engine. I'd like to see a link on SAFRAN not meeting obligations. I've seen too many opinions here not based on reality to blame failures on anything but the true root cause(s).

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/sam146-en ... ght-hours/

I don't really know how dispatch rates are calculated. eg if a Motor (not the Airplane) is available for every flight for 1000 hours but then has to be taken out of service because there is a fatigue crack in the combustion chamber how do they calculate the dispatch reliability of the motor? And if there are no available Motors to replace it how does that factor in?

As for a link to SAFRAN not meeting obligations, I can offer these for your analysis;

http://www.ato.ru/content/vse-specialis ... -sgoraniya

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comme ... ilure_for/

c933103 wrote:

Wouldn't PD-14 be too much power for SSJ?

Which is why its a PD-8

scbriml wrote:

Metchalus wrote:

Does this reduce their attractiveness in foreign markets?

You can't reduce something below nonexistent.

Seriously, different engines won't make any difference in "western markets". It may help SSJ sales in sanctioned countries like Iran, Syria, etc.

Fair enough, I was trying to be optimistic. The SSJ had its chance to get into Europe with Cityjet and that whole venture pretty much imploded.

I can't think of a logical reason why a European airline would buy it, instead of acquiring some Ejets.

Hopefuly the MC-21 has better fortunes. There are too many A320s and the skies are boring.

Hamlet69 wrote:

Cuba, if they are gifted away.

If only that were enough...maybe CU would be flying a handful soon!

lightsaber wrote:

The SSJ "Russification" isn't a NEO, it is substitution to enable sales to Iran and national pride.

They are calling it the 'SSJ-New' now.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 97.article

Quote:
"Russia’s United Engine has developed an automatic control system for the Aviadvigatel PD-8 powerplant which will be installed on the Sukhoi SSJ-New aircraft."

PD-8 engine has completed bench tests: https://rostec.ru/en/news/rostec-comple ... prototype/