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FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:43 am

departedflights wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Having been on the receiving end of those meltdown phone calls, I feel your pain.
It is just as bad, or even worse, in scheduling and support than it is for the line.


As a crew member... I want to say that I needed a good laugh tonight! Thank you for providing it! I owe you! That was great!

Thanks…
We really do realize that you folks are out there at the end of a string by yourself, thinking we have forgotten about you, but with very few exceptions we haven’t. We just have to triage and prioritize a hundred or more crews at the same time. Got two hours until pumpkin? I am not worrying about you for a bit until I get other issues solved. It isn’t personal.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:55 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Not only bad but terribly sad.

This is being caused as much by the Vax mandate, as it is anything else.

First they panic cut during Covid, issuing long-term LOA’s to everyone that would take it, but laying off ops and training staff to the bone. You don’t just hire type-rated Training Captains off the street. A lot of those people found other jobs elsewhere, especially in Boxes and Corporate flying.

AA also cut several fleet types, putting a bunch of already senior pilots at the bottom of other lists, contributing greatly to the training backlog as well.

Now you add the Vax mandate into it, and a bunch of retirement-eligible senior pilots call it quits. Now you have to upgrade FO’s adding even more to the training mess. But OOPS, you just can’t upgrade a bunch of FO’s, because other, more Senior Captains on other types want to move into those higher paying slots. Oh look, more training bottle necks.

There are other factors at play as well, like QOL. (This is a REAL issue, folks, especially for commuters. You might live 30 minutes from Miami where you were based pre-Covid, but now have to commute to LAX or PHX because of type changes and bids. Even Commuting to New York can turn a 3-4 day rotation into 5-6 day experience that you will get real tired of, real quick. So the guy says I bid four full days off over the holiday to be with my family, screw it.


If it’s the vaccine mandate, why isn’t United, Frontier, Atlas, Alaska, etc., etc., etc. having the same issue?

As far as Atlas and that group of companies they operate, and others, they tend to be stopovers on the way up, or last resorts on the way down or out. I imagine that many of their crews aren’t Senior, they are known for high turnover and much of that growth has come only in recent years.

As far as United goes, they haven’t ramped up the way some others have, for example Newark and SFO has only recently come back to near 2019 levels, and United relies a lot more heavily on the regionals than some others do. They are telling the media how many have requested exemptions, but not how many have left and retired. That is an important bit of info.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:20 am

OldB747Driver wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.

Well, to all pilot-wannabe desk-jockeys out there, have at it - the money tree is waiting to be harvested and is yours for the taking. The jig is up, fellow professional pilots; they discovered our ruse. Let's not distract them from learning what an underworked, overpaid life we enjoy.

Zuckie probably doesn’t know that some regionals have a hard core group of lifers who stay because QOL is worth more than the money to them.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:29 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.

Well, to all pilot-wannabe desk-jockeys out there, have at it - the money tree is waiting to be harvested and is yours for the taking. The jig is up, fellow professional pilots; they discovered our ruse. Let's not distract them from learning what an underworked, overpaid life we enjoy.


Clearly I did not make my point clearly You work the same hours or so that I do - and you get paid more.
Hence - you ARE compensated for being away from home more and having those long days.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3576
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:35 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.

Well, to all pilot-wannabe desk-jockeys out there, have at it - the money tree is waiting to be harvested and is yours for the taking. The jig is up, fellow professional pilots; they discovered our ruse. Let's not distract them from learning what an underworked, overpaid life we enjoy.

Zuckie probably doesn’t know that some regionals have a hard core group of lifers who stay because QOL is worth more than the money to them.


And the hard core lifers tend to have something in their past that might make getting that mainline job difficult to impossible in most times.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 455
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:10 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.

Well, to all pilot-wannabe desk-jockeys out there, have at it - the money tree is waiting to be harvested and is yours for the taking. The jig is up, fellow professional pilots; they discovered our ruse. Let's not distract them from learning what an underworked, overpaid life we enjoy.

Zuckie probably doesn’t know that some regionals have a hard core group of lifers who stay because QOL is worth more than the money to them.


It's a life decision thing. Same goes for athletes and whether their families move with them when they change teams/are traded. Your making a choice, but that's the choice you made - so it bugs me to hear the complaining about it. Happens in other places too. I have a co-worker who drives a nearly two hour commute each way. It's a choice - he chose to live in a cheaper place, but every time he whines about the commute I just get annoyed. I chose to live closer to work, and it costs more, but I get to spend more time at home as a result.

Lots of pilots commute so they can (a) not move their family and (b) live somewhere cheaper than where the bases are. Other make a choice that they want to live where they are based to have more family time. Either way it's the choice they made, and they have to live with it. If they hate it that much, make the other choice.
 
Airbuser
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:10 pm

The pilots are burned out. I have plenty of money so it’s not about the money. It’s about being taken advantage of by management pilots that have not flown the line since the 1990s. They have no idea how bad it is out there. Working a 14 hour day then having to book your own hotel gets old really fast. Use UBer to get to that hotel then expense it. Then hope they approve it so you get reimbursed. Now my crew has 6 people the last time I did this.over two thousand dollars on my credit card because this company has no idea how to operate when there is a little weather. I for one will enjoy my 6 days over thanksgiving off. Odds are my over sold commute on the Monday after the Holliday will afford an extra week off when I can’t make my trip. It’s so nice to not care any more. I am fed up.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:05 pm

Airbuser wrote:
The pilots are burned out. I have plenty of money so it’s not about the money. It’s about being taken advantage of by management pilots that have not flown the line since the 1990s. They have no idea how bad it is out there. Working a 14 hour day then having to book your own hotel gets old really fast. Use UBer to get to that hotel then expense it. Then hope they approve it so you get reimbursed. Now my crew has 6 people the last time I did this.over two thousand dollars on my credit card because this company has no idea how to operate when there is a little weather. I for one will enjoy my 6 days over thanksgiving off. Odds are my over sold commute on the Monday after the Holliday will afford an extra week off when I can’t make my trip. It’s so nice to not care any more. I am fed up.

Most people don’t understand how mentally taxing flying can be, especially when you do it every day for a living, and all of the financial ups and downs that come with it. For me, flying can be both relaxing and stressful. Once I begin, I really can’t think about anything else but what I am doing in the moment, my troubles and concerns stay on the ground until the engine is off and the key is out. That is part of the reason I like it so much.

In my own little plane, two two-hr legs on a hot and bumpy day wipes you out. Three and you are down for the count once you get on the ground. I can’t imagine what doing five legs with extensions for two days straight in stormy northeast weather is like. Neither can anyone else if the haven’t done it. Most people in aviation do it because they love it. But when you fly every day, year in-year out, it becomes a job just like any other. It is not like working an assembly line or plugging in servers for a living. When things go bad, it can go really bad, with lives on the line.

My uncle, now passed, who in addition to being a senior Captain at a major flew Tomcats on Carrier decks, had his own burnout solution. He was a partner in a small home built Oldfield Baby Great Lakes (an aerobatic biplane) that he would force himself to fly for an hour or so twice a month, whether he wanted to or not, to remind himself of why it was that he got into flying in the first place.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:41 pm

MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.


You clearly don't understand the profession. Many pilots deal with sleep dysfunction, time zone changes and short rest periods. Add in stress, irrops and reroutes. There is a good reason why they can only fly limited hours/days. Most folks who screw up in their job wouldn't kill hundreds of people.

Pilots experience higher levels of stress, more irregular diets, shorter life expectancy and higher exposure to risk factors such as radiation (flying extended periods at high altitude) then the population in general.

Money isn't everything and more and more folks are realizing that spending holidays on the road isn't all its cracked up to be despite the higher pay. As for fully automated flying, that requires not just the planes to be massively upgraded but airspace and airports world wide to be upgraded as well. That reality is decades away so don't hold your breath.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:07 pm

gdg9 wrote:
Jetport wrote:
If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.


Interesting for a senior 777 pilot to turn down over $600 an hour, but it does seem there are other issues at play here.


Perhaps the incremental income added to a senior 777 pilot’s annual income doesn’t matter to them. To someone making $30k, sure.

This is the equivalent of a department manager in HQ ordering a pizza lunch when his/her employees have been working 12 hour days, including weekends, for the past six weeks to meet the deadlines of an IT implementation go-live. While HR is saying, “That’s a good way to say thank you and keep our employees motivated and engaged”, employees just don’t care about the damn pizza lunch.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1368
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:04 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.

Well, to all pilot-wannabe desk-jockeys out there, have at it - the money tree is waiting to be harvested and is yours for the taking. The jig is up, fellow professional pilots; they discovered our ruse. Let's not distract them from learning what an underworked, overpaid life we enjoy.


Clearly I did not make my point clearly You work the same hours or so that I do - and you get paid more.
Hence - you ARE compensated for being away from home more and having those long days.

Possibly.
How about another explanation -- pilots are way more qualified than you are? Maybe their higher salary compensates skills, knowledge, and to a degree, capability. Heck, even in WWII, when they needed all the pilots they could get, washing people out in training, en masse, was a thing. Not everyone can be a pilot. Not every pilot can be an airline pilot. Gotta compensate for that, no?

Now, the rest of inconveniences that result from actually flying the line, needed to be compensated as extra, correct?
 
kiowa
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:33 pm

Airbuser wrote:
The pilots are burned out. I have plenty of money so it’s not about the money. It’s about being taken advantage of by management pilots that have not flown the line since the 1990s. They have no idea how bad it is out there. Working a 14 hour day then having to book your own hotel gets old really fast. Use UBer to get to that hotel then expense it. Then hope they approve it so you get reimbursed. Now my crew has 6 people the last time I did this.over two thousand dollars on my credit card because this company has no idea how to operate when there is a little weather. I for one will enjoy my 6 days over thanksgiving off. Odds are my over sold commute on the Monday after the Holliday will afford an extra week off when I can’t make my trip. It’s so nice to not care any more. I am fed up.



Fed up and stressed out is a bad combination for the responsibility that pilots have.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm

Reading through this thread (I read every post), I am glad my family cancelled the big Thanksgiving and we are just having dinner with family and probably neighbors (they are going through a medical crisis, so we help).

Interesting times ahead!
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:47 pm

Just a small remark for all of those complaining about crazy pilot life: Many of those sitting behind you have crazy schedules as well.
Heck, if I could have a monthly schedule such as posted by AABusDrvr for the same money as I'm making now - it is likely much less than an AA Airbus pilot makes - I'd be really happy.
That said, I fully understand their lack of interest to work over the holidays. Home time is just too precious. I'm not sure what would make me to work in that time, 100% copay definitely not.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:30 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
Clearly I did not make my point [...] You work the same hours or so that I do - and you get paid more.
Hence - you ARE compensated for being away from home more and having those long days.

I apologize if I misinterpreted your intent; I responded in this manner because the thread creep was toward "How dare those overpaid pilots have the gall to turn down more money to work the holidays", and not "Yeah, you guys earn every single penny of your pay".

But please keep in mind that the airlines pay pilots to get multi-million dollar jets filled with paying cargo, mostly in the form of live humans, safely, efficiently, and legally from A to B. Not a penny for the divorce when the wife has "half a husband", not for missing their kids' plays and achievements, not the chest x-ray equivalent of radiation each time the cross the country, and DEFINITELY not for missing ANY holiday. That we ACCEPT that as inevitable is "part of the job" but that doesn't mean we have to bend over backwards when our airline can't figure out how to work WITH the labor to fix a problem rather than believing all problems are solved by simply throwing more money at them.
 
SteelChair
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:12 pm

"Throwing more money"

To some extent, all organized labor group have conditioned management that is exactly the situation. At contract time everything is for sale, for a price.

I remember seeing a blurb in aviation week years ago, 18 non pilot people at UAL made more than XXX/year. 5,300 pilots made more than XXX. I'll hand it to them, most of the ones I know truly believe they're worth it.
 
nwadeicer
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:17 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:22 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Just avoid flying American or Southwest. Delta and United are good choices as they have not faced this cancellation chaos due to staffing shortages.


I can guarantee you that Delta is facing staffing shortages all across the board.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:39 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.
Nonsense.

You are working 14 hours prior to take off and after landing when you have done a 14 hour flight?

Agitate for better terms, behave like entitled brats. Automation will arrive and when it does, job losses are going to be the norm.

Autos went through this, and jobs went to Mexico too because those companies did not want to deal with costs so high, and a regulatory environment that encouraged more free trade.

The last round of automation led to the cockpit losing a navigator and flight engineer, and these were able to transition to being pilots. The next round is going to be a bloodbath, and airlines will welcome these changes with open arms.

Not long ago pilots were on here complaining about how they would not accept a camera in the cockpit. It will start slow, but soon, even this lot won't have to be begged to come to work.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:00 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
Clearly I did not make my point [...] You work the same hours or so that I do - and you get paid more.
Hence - you ARE compensated for being away from home more and having those long days.

I apologize if I misinterpreted your intent; I responded in this manner because the thread creep was toward "How dare those overpaid pilots have the gall to turn down more money to work the holidays", and not "Yeah, you guys earn every single penny of your pay".

But please keep in mind that the airlines pay pilots to get multi-million dollar jets filled with paying cargo, mostly in the form of live humans, safely, efficiently, and legally from A to B. Not a penny for the divorce when the wife has "half a husband", not for missing their kids' plays and achievements, not the chest x-ray equivalent of radiation each time the cross the country, and DEFINITELY not for missing ANY holiday. That we ACCEPT that as inevitable is "part of the job" but that doesn't mean we have to bend over backwards when our airline can't figure out how to work WITH the labor to fix a problem rather than believing all problems are solved by simply throwing more money at them.

I have heard that phrase before. Are you a graduate of one of Vanderburgh’s classes?
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:04 pm

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.
Nonsense.

You are working 14 hours prior to take off and after landing when you have done a 14 hour flight?

Agitate for better terms, behave like entitled brats. Automation will arrive and when it does, job losses are going to be the norm.

Autos went through this, and jobs went to Mexico too because those companies did not want to deal with costs so high, and a regulatory environment that encouraged more free trade.

The last round of automation led to the cockpit losing a navigator and flight engineer, and these were able to transition to being pilots. The next round is going to be a bloodbath, and airlines will welcome these changes with open arms.

Not long ago pilots were on here complaining about how they would not accept a camera in the cockpit. It will start slow, but soon, even this lot won't have to be begged to come to work.

Obviously you have never met anyone from the FAA. Or a lawyer… There are a lot of recent innovations that you may eventually see overseas, but not in our lifetimes in America.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:06 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.
Nonsense.

You are working 14 hours prior to take off and after landing when you have done a 14 hour flight?

Agitate for better terms, behave like entitled brats. Automation will arrive and when it does, job losses are going to be the norm.

Autos went through this, and jobs went to Mexico too because those companies did not want to deal with costs so high, and a regulatory environment that encouraged more free trade.

The last round of automation led to the cockpit losing a navigator and flight engineer, and these were able to transition to being pilots. The next round is going to be a bloodbath, and airlines will welcome these changes with open arms.

Not long ago pilots were on here complaining about how they would not accept a camera in the cockpit. It will start slow, but soon, even this lot won't have to be begged to come to work.

Obviously you have never met anyone from the FAA. There are a lot of recent innovations that you may eventually see overseas, but not in our lifetimes in America.
Not long ago unions were telling us how you could not reduce people in the cockpit.

How is that going?
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 1368
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:06 pm

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.
Nonsense.

You are working 14 hours prior to take off and after landing when you have done a 14 hour flight?

Agitate for better terms, behave like entitled brats. Automation will arrive and when it does, job losses are going to be the norm.

Autos went through this, and jobs went to Mexico too because those companies did not want to deal with costs so high, and a regulatory environment that encouraged more free trade.

The last round of automation led to the cockpit losing a navigator and flight engineer, and these were able to transition to being pilots. The next round is going to be a bloodbath, and airlines will welcome these changes with open arms.

Not long ago pilots were on here complaining about how they would not accept a camera in the cockpit. It will start slow, but soon, even this lot won't have to be begged to come to work.


Well, I can't argue if 14 hour flight requires additional 14 hours of work. I could see how a string of flights 14 hours long altogether, could require 14 or more hours of extra work. But this is actually small potatoes, compared to the bigger point you are making.

You say that "next round" of job losses to automation in pilot profession is imminent. If true... Well, than it's up to the pilot unions to make sure to secure their position. Kinda, "making hay while the sun shines". Securing best terms and long-term job security, for example. Rather than accepting short-term handouts. No?
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:14 pm

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
Nonsense.

You are working 14 hours prior to take off and after landing when you have done a 14 hour flight?

Agitate for better terms, behave like entitled brats. Automation will arrive and when it does, job losses are going to be the norm.

Autos went through this, and jobs went to Mexico too because those companies did not want to deal with costs so high, and a regulatory environment that encouraged more free trade.

The last round of automation led to the cockpit losing a navigator and flight engineer, and these were able to transition to being pilots. The next round is going to be a bloodbath, and airlines will welcome these changes with open arms.

Not long ago pilots were on here complaining about how they would not accept a camera in the cockpit. It will start slow, but soon, even this lot won't have to be begged to come to work.

Obviously you have never met anyone from the FAA. There are a lot of recent innovations that you may eventually see overseas, but not in our lifetimes in America.
Not long ago unions were telling us how you could not reduce people in the cockpit.

How is that going?

Automation is NOT the end-all. A computer can’t react to what it isn’t programmed for.
Take self-driving Tesla’s, or the Air France 447 crash in 2009, or even more recent, the Boeing MAX issues.

Warren Vanderburgh’s famous (At least among many pilots) “Children of the Magenta Line” class. Keep in mind this is a decade old, or more!
https://youtu.be/5ESJH1NLMLs
Last edited by FlyingElvii on Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
twoaislesforme
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:02 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:14 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.


They all chose their profession fully aware of the pros and cons. I ask because my wife commutes up to 90 minutes each way per day to get to work. On a crowded bus and trains. I ask because every day she is responsible to pay for her own lunch which, in NYC, costs on average $15.00 a day. I ask because the commuter rails are always packed and are always late. 8 hour work day, 3 to 4 hours each day commuting, 5 days a week....so be right back, let me go get my violin.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8906
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:18 pm

SteelChair wrote:
"Throwing more money"

To some extent, all organized labor group have conditioned management that is exactly the situation. At contract time everything is for sale, for a price.

I remember seeing a blurb in aviation week years ago, 18 non pilot people at UAL made more than XXX/year. 5,300 pilots made more than XXX. I'll hand it to them, most of the ones I know truly believe they're worth it.



If the pilots weren’t worth the pay offered, do you think the contract would have XXX/year for pilots? Would a profit making business just hand out money because pilots should live in nice houses?

Automation? The idea that automation will reduce crews below 2 is A.net dreaming—won’t happen in the next 50 years. They can’t automate subways, trains, trucks, maritime shipping or cars yet. I wouldn’t be worried about automatic planes. It’s a specialized craft that generates lots of revenue hence the pay. Heck, the pilot pay at corporates is usually as high as the legal staff and exceeds much of the staff at HNWI and PE firms. That’s what it takes.

As my old chief pilot told the CEO, “next time you don’t think I’m worth, have the new MBA come up here and watch him negotiate the squall line or land at KHPN in an ice storm”.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:24 pm

Most of the plane spotters who chime in don’t know about the massive sacrifices all the employees made to avoid bankruptcy. Only for AA to file for bankruptcy while upper management bailed with their complete pensions and massive bonuses. The amount of employee and union bashing here is amazing. Then again it just a bunch of bitter people who wished they had the ability to be pilots. Or wished they worked for an airline. That’s why they stand outside of airports for hours taking pics and recording tail numbers. To them it’s a hobby. To the employees it’s how they support their families.
 
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mach86
Posts: 18
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:33 pm

I'm really getting a chuckle out of all the desk jockeys comparing their 40 hour a week job to airline pilots. As if hours worked should mean equal compensation. If your cubicle loses pressurization over the Arctic how many lives are depending on you and your cubicle mate to get your desks onto a strip of pavement 3 hours away? How many hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment and potential litigation does your company place in your hands to sit at that desk for 40 hours a week?
Airline pilot compensation levels have nothing to do with "hours worked". It is a reflection of immense responsibility and trust.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 446
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:34 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Well, I can't argue if 14 hour flight requires additional 14 hours of work. I could see how a string of flights 14 hours long altogether, could require 14 or more hours of extra work. But this is actually small potatoes, compared to the bigger point you are making.

You say that "next round" of job losses to automation in pilot profession is imminent. If true... Well, than it's up to the pilot unions to make sure to secure their position. Kinda, "making hay while the sun shines". Securing best terms and long-term job security, for example. Rather than accepting short-term handouts. No?
Go at it.

DL757NYC wrote:
Most of the plane spotters who chime in don’t know about the massive sacrifices all the employees made to avoid bankruptcy. Only for AA to file for bankruptcy while upper management bailed with their complete pensions and massive bonuses. The amount of employee and union bashing here is amazing. Then again it just a bunch of bitter people who wished they had the ability to be pilots. Or wished they worked for an airline. That’s why they stand outside of airports for hours taking pics and recording tail numbers. To them it’s a hobby. To the employees it’s how they support their families.
No, some of us are just surprised at the consistent whining that comes from these unions. We don't want this, do this and this, no, do this like this.

Show up to work, do your work, wait for a salary. That is what most people in almost every other profession do.

FlyingElvii wrote:
Automation is NOT the end-all. A computer can’t react to what it isn’t programmed for.
Take self-driving Tesla’s, or the Air France 447 crash in 2009, or even more recent, the Boeing MAX issues.

Warren Vanderburgh’s famous (At least among many pilots) “Children of the Magenta Line” class. Keep in mind this is a decade old, or more!
https://youtu.be/5ESJH1NLMLs
Automation gets better with time. You cannot compare where aviation is today to where it was 60 years ago, and majority of that is down no nothing else other than automation.

You have fewer crew in the cockpit and they are doing less work. So what do mostly do? They monitor automation.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:46 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
"Throwing more money"

To some extent, all organized labor group have conditioned management that is exactly the situation. At contract time everything is for sale, for a price.

I remember seeing a blurb in aviation week years ago, 18 non pilot people at UAL made more than XXX/year. 5,300 pilots made more than XXX. I'll hand it to them, most of the ones I know truly believe they're worth it.



If the pilots weren’t worth the pay offered, do you think the contract would have XXX/year for pilots? Would a profit making business just hand out money because pilots should live in nice houses?


I don't know anyone whom I consider to be knowledgeable about this industry that thinks pilot compensation would be what it is without unions.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8906
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:14 am

SteelChair wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
"Throwing more money"

To some extent, all organized labor group have conditioned management that is exactly the situation. At contract time everything is for sale, for a price.

I remember seeing a blurb in aviation week years ago, 18 non pilot people at UAL made more than XXX/year. 5,300 pilots made more than XXX. I'll hand it to them, most of the ones I know truly believe they're worth it.



If the pilots weren’t worth the pay offered, do you think the contract would have XXX/year for pilots? Would a profit making business just hand out money because pilots should live in nice houses?


I don't know anyone whom I consider to be knowledgeable about this industry that thinks pilot compensation would be what it is without unions.


Yes, it has served to increase airline pilot pay, but no, in that it has depressed pay in other sectors—especially regionals and before that other lower rungs in the ladder to major airline. Corporate pilots, no, the pilots there are, nowadays, not moving on and still can demand pay at $250k in the bigger markets and probably work less.

Yes, the whining and complaining are a feature of airline flying, to a degree not even in the military and certainly not in the corporate shops I’ve visited or flown with.

It’s a unique craft, requires certain mental and physical skills that aren’t common to find. Ship captains were once that way as any visit to whaling towns will show. Locomotive engineers were, too.

Fascinating comment on unions seeing as many A.nutters seem to be of a pro-union political position. I suppose unions are bad when the members make more than the median wage.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:34 am

SteelChair wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
"Throwing more money"

To some extent, all organized labor group have conditioned management that is exactly the situation. At contract time everything is for sale, for a price.

I remember seeing a blurb in aviation week years ago, 18 non pilot people at UAL made more than XXX/year. 5,300 pilots made more than XXX. I'll hand it to them, most of the ones I know truly believe they're worth it.



If the pilots weren’t worth the pay offered, do you think the contract would have XXX/year for pilots? Would a profit making business just hand out money because pilots should live in nice houses?


I don't know anyone whom I consider to be knowledgeable about this industry that thinks pilot compensation would be what it is without unions.


Compensation is, and always has been driven by supply and demand, in the end. For the foreseeable future, demand will outstrip supply. And as we have all have seen proof of recently, that can inverse in a flash. Asian Recession, 9/11, 2008, 2020, etc.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 3042
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:13 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it were so easy a career, everyone would be one.


Sigh... Why do pilots always think everyone wants to be one? That job is murder for one's social skills.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:23 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it were so easy a career, everyone would be one.


Sigh... Why do pilots always think everyone wants to be one? That job is murder for one's social skills.


How so? I thought you were a pilot. Why do we think everyone wants to be a pilot? Because they say so, perhaps?
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 331
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:30 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:


If the pilots weren’t worth the pay offered, do you think the contract would have XXX/year for pilots? Would a profit making business just hand out money because pilots should live in nice houses?


I don't know anyone whom I consider to be knowledgeable about this industry that thinks pilot compensation would be what it is without unions.


Compensation is, and always has been driven by supply and demand, in the end. For the foreseeable future, demand will outstrip supply. And as we have all have seen proof of recently, that can inverse in a flash. Asian Recession, 9/11, 2008, 2020, etc.


CEO compensation is not based on supply and demand. Sure, that’s what HR executives and boards will tell you. It is a good old boys club racket. Nothing more.

Pilot compensation would be in a different place without unions.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it were so easy a career, everyone would be one.


Sigh... Why do pilots always think everyone wants to be one? That job is murder for one's social skills.


How so? I thought you were a pilot. Why do we think everyone wants to be a pilot? Because they say so, perhaps?


I am no longer current. I was an engineer who maintained a series of ratings for my old job, and I still do hold a valid PPL, but I have no intention of recertifying any type ratings. I never flew for an airline though.

In any case, when my company showed precursors of impending failure at the beginning of last year, I left altogether to pursue a career in the entertainment machine. So far so good.



Anyway, the statement indicates that by saying everyone would be one. But more generally, a large number of pilots I still know seem to think that. I am really not sure why.
 
scottyraven
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:49 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:14 am

mga707 wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
Jetport wrote:
On the upside, you do have management potential.


Best line I've read on here in a long time. Kudos!

*chef's kiss* that line is a brutal mic drop. well done
 
smi0006
Posts: 2738
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:23 am

Can I ask as an Aussie we don’t have the same commuter culture here, there are a few but no match for the US numbers. What happens in the US if you don’t make your trip because you didn’t get there in time, cancellations, full flights etc. In AU you would simply be considered to not show up for work - and face disciplinary action and potential loose your job. But it seems there is a different approach more leniency in the US?
 
jetmatt777
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:28 am

smi0006 wrote:
Can I ask as an Aussie we don’t have the same commuter culture here, there are a few but no match for the US numbers. What happens in the US if you don’t make your trip because you didn’t get there in time, cancellations, full flights etc. In AU you would simply be considered to not show up for work - and face disciplinary action and potential loose your job. But it seems there is a different approach more leniency in the US?


Commuters do have some protection if you make a good faith effort to make the trip including reasonable and realistic backup options that fall through.
 
N353SK
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:52 am

smi0006 wrote:
Can I ask as an Aussie we don’t have the same commuter culture here, there are a few but no match for the US numbers. What happens in the US if you don’t make your trip because you didn’t get there in time, cancellations, full flights etc. In AU you would simply be considered to not show up for work - and face disciplinary action and potential loose your job. But it seems there is a different approach more leniency in the US?


Almost all US carriers have a “commuter clause” in their labor contracts. The commuter clauses generally stipulate that a pilot needs to try for at least two flights to get to domicile before his/her trip report time. Usually if a pilot can show that he/she got bumped from two flights due to unavailability of seats/jumpseats (usually by saving the “standby” boarding cards as proof of showing up) that would have arrived before the trip the pilot will not be disciplined. Each airline’s commuter clause is a little different, but that’s generally how things work.

It may seem odd, but remember that in the US pilots are not hired into specific domicile cities. They then bid for positions (domicile, aircraft, and seat) in accordance with their seniority, but as a new hire they basically get sent wherever the company needs them. For example, a pilot in new hire training at American Airlines might get based in New York or Los Angeles initially even though he lives in Dallas. As his seniority advances he has the chance to bid for a DFW position in future bids.
 
Josh76040
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:01 am

nwadeicer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Just avoid flying American or Southwest. Delta and United are good choices as they have not faced this cancellation chaos due to staffing shortages.


I can guarantee you that Delta is facing staffing shortages all across the board.


Yup. Delta just hides its delays by deferring the flights it can’t staff. The joke at Delta is “We never cancel flights. We just delay them forever.” Delta’s creative rescheduling and its spin machine are pure facade.

I’m just waiting for a status match and I’m gone to UA or AA.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:06 am

N353SK wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Can I ask as an Aussie we don’t have the same commuter culture here, there are a few but no match for the US numbers. What happens in the US if you don’t make your trip because you didn’t get there in time, cancellations, full flights etc. In AU you would simply be considered to not show up for work - and face disciplinary action and potential loose your job. But it seems there is a different approach more leniency in the US?


Almost all US carriers have a “commuter clause” in their labor contracts. The commuter clauses generally stipulate that a pilot needs to try for at least two flights to get to domicile before his/her trip report time. Usually if a pilot can show that he/she got bumped from two flights due to unavailability of seats/jumpseats (usually by saving the “standby” boarding cards as proof of showing up) that would have arrived before the trip the pilot will not be disciplined. Each airline’s commuter clause is a little different, but that’s generally how things work.

It may seem odd, but remember that in the US pilots are not hired into specific domicile cities. They then bid for positions (domicile, aircraft, and seat) in accordance with their seniority, but as a new hire they basically get sent wherever the company needs them. For example, a pilot in new hire training at American Airlines might get based in New York or Los Angeles initially even though he lives in Dallas. As his seniority advances he has the chance to bid for a DFW position in future bids.


That and don’t a few carriers allow positive space tickets in some cases?
 
e38
Posts: 918
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:10 am

smi0006 wrote:
Can I ask as an Aussie we don’t have the same commuter culture here, there are a few but no match for the US numbers. What happens in the US if you don’t make your trip because you didn’t get there in time, cancellations, full flights etc. In AU you would simply be considered to not show up for work - and face disciplinary action and potential loose your job. But it seems there is a different approach more leniency in the US?


smi0006, I agree with the responses above from jetmatt777 and N353SK. My company has similar policies.

However, keep in mind, it is not a situation where you just "do not show up for work."

If you determine you are not going to make it to your crew base in time for your trip, as soon as possible, you call crew scheduling and explain the situation to them and provide them with the appropriate information. Scheduling will call out a "reserve" pilot so that your scheduled trip departs on time; then, in some cases, they will help you find flights to get you back on your assigned trip.

But, if you abuse the policy, yes, you can face disciplinary action and/or lose your job.

e38
 
smi0006
Posts: 2738
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:17 am

e38 wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Can I ask as an Aussie we don’t have the same commuter culture here, there are a few but no match for the US numbers. What happens in the US if you don’t make your trip because you didn’t get there in time, cancellations, full flights etc. In AU you would simply be considered to not show up for work - and face disciplinary action and potential loose your job. But it seems there is a different approach more leniency in the US?


smi0006, I agree with the responses above from jetmatt777 and N353SK. My company has similar policies.

However, keep in mind, it is not a situation where you just "do not show up for work."

If you determine you are not going to make it to your crew base in time for your trip, as soon as possible, you call crew scheduling and explain the situation to them and provide them with the appropriate information. Scheduling will call out a "reserve" pilot so that your scheduled trip departs on time; then, in some cases, they will help you find flights to get you back on your assigned trip.

But, if you abuse the policy, yes, you can face disciplinary action and/or lose your job.

e38


Fascinating! Thanks so much for the informative response, always been a curiosity, such a very different approach. Not passing any judgement just fascinating the diversity in the industry - thanks guys.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:40 am

Josh76040 wrote:
nwadeicer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Just avoid flying American or Southwest. Delta and United are good choices as they have not faced this cancellation chaos due to staffing shortages.


I can guarantee you that Delta is facing staffing shortages all across the board.


Yup. Delta just hides its delays by deferring the flights it can’t staff. The joke at Delta is “We never cancel flights. We just delay them forever.” Delta’s creative rescheduling and its spin machine are pure facade.

I’m just waiting for a status match and I’m gone to UA or AA.


Check the statistics for the last few years and I think you'll find that DL beats UA and AA by a substantial margin in DOT on time and completion factor. Especially AA, I don't know how their BOD can continue to sanction such poor performance.

You can start with 2021 stats here:

https://www.transportation.gov/individu ... mer-report
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:46 am

gaystudpilot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

I don't know anyone whom I consider to be knowledgeable about this industry that thinks pilot compensation would be what it is without unions.


Compensation is, and always has been driven by supply and demand, in the end. For the foreseeable future, demand will outstrip supply. And as we have all have seen proof of recently, that can inverse in a flash. Asian Recession, 9/11, 2008, 2020, etc.


CEO compensation is not based on supply and demand. Sure, that’s what HR executives and boards will tell you. It is a good old boys club racket. Nothing more.

Pilot compensation would be in a different place without unions.
There are fewer pilots than needed. The training is expensive, and in the US, getting hours needed somewhat a cost too.

If there was more pilots than needed in the market, none of these strike actions or crazy demands would be common place.

Unions are simply leveraging a position of strength and the pilots seem to think that this should be normal.
 
AA94
Posts: 786
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:36 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Having been on the receiving end of those meltdown phonecalls, I feel your pain.
It is just as bad, or even worse, in scheduling and support than it is for the line. They got cut to the bone like everyone else, and suffered a huge brain drain on top of it. This has been emphasized by several meltdowns since peak summer, across several carriers.

The Management burnout is real, as well.
They let pretty much all of the juniors go, leaving only senior staff and management in the ops departments. When the Fed money came, many chose to not return, due to Fed handouts and plenty of other higher paying jobs available. In our case, they didn’t even begin the first new hire training group until May, for the summer crunch. Many in scheduling or support don’t come back after the first or second major meltdown, too many other jobs out there with a whole lot less stress if you aren’t committed to it.

Anyone that has been in this business longer than a month realizes that you have to step up when the schit hits the fan, or else everything falls apart. You do whatever it takes to rebuild the operation. Over the years, I have pulled several 48 hr shifts in the stations, and plenty of 16-20 hr ones at HQ. Been the last group to leave the building and lock the doors forever at a couple of carriers, too. It is what it is…

But you can only do that for so long. Don’t get me wrong, I loved my position, but at some point you begin the “ Is this really worth it?” calculation, as many are being forced to right now. In my case, it was the third round of “Go Away” checks last fall that tipped my decision. I have other skills, and a decent 401k, so why not? I wasn’t the only one, by far. And now the mandate is forcing people that are already retirement eligible to make that same decision, in work group with a far more marketable skill and a fatter 401K than mine. It is a pretty easy decision to make really, if you don’t have three seperate alimony payments.

So now all of that experience and brain power is gone. Instead of someone on the end of the phone who has done this a hundred times, knows the systems backwards and forwards, knows your contract backwards and forward, has a memorized list of backup hotels and limos in almost every city along with the personal cell phone numbers of who to “really” talk with to get anything done, can tell you how to get to the “other” pickup point and save 30 minutes waiting in line because they have used it themselves, you’ve got a newbie who barely understands the contract she read last month, stressed because everyone in the room is hollering, and calling for a sup or coordinator that already has three other people at the desk asking questions, because she isn’t sure what to do next.

We aren’t the only industry going through this, by far, but we can inconvenience a whole lot more people than most.


I've read a lot of good and wise things on this website, but this is one of the best and wisest. While I disagree with you that the vaccine mandate necessarily causes retirement chaos -- UA, for example, has proved that it's a non-issue -- I couldn't agree more with the rest of your post.

Aviation is an exciting industry to work in, especially for those who are truly passionate. The operation still gets my blood pumping -- there's something really special about watching all the pieces come together and moving millions of people to their destinations. But it's not an especially high paying industry for most management/ops folks, and free travel can only carry the day for so long -- at a certain point, it's more attractive to make more money working less hours and buy your own travel.

I'm a more junior employee, and I've never been more concerned about the "brain drain." In my department, senior folks are leaving faster than they can pass knowledge to the rest of us, and we're having to come to grips with the fact that eventually that knowledge will cease to exist. I'm too young and too junior to be so jaded, but I can't help but feel pangs of dread at what's to come.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:43 am

AA94 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Having been on the receiving end of those meltdown phonecalls, I feel your pain.
It is just as bad, or even worse, in scheduling and support than it is for the line. They got cut to the bone like everyone else, and suffered a huge brain drain on top of it. This has been emphasized by several meltdowns since peak summer, across several carriers.

The Management burnout is real, as well.
They let pretty much all of the juniors go, leaving only senior staff and management in the ops departments. When the Fed money came, many chose to not return, due to Fed handouts and plenty of other higher paying jobs available. In our case, they didn’t even begin the first new hire training group until May, for the summer crunch. Many in scheduling or support don’t come back after the first or second major meltdown, too many other jobs out there with a whole lot less stress if you aren’t committed to it.

Anyone that has been in this business longer than a month realizes that you have to step up when the schit hits the fan, or else everything falls apart. You do whatever it takes to rebuild the operation. Over the years, I have pulled several 48 hr shifts in the stations, and plenty of 16-20 hr ones at HQ. Been the last group to leave the building and lock the doors forever at a couple of carriers, too. It is what it is…

But you can only do that for so long. Don’t get me wrong, I loved my position, but at some point you begin the “ Is this really worth it?” calculation, as many are being forced to right now. In my case, it was the third round of “Go Away” checks last fall that tipped my decision. I have other skills, and a decent 401k, so why not? I wasn’t the only one, by far. And now the mandate is forcing people that are already retirement eligible to make that same decision, in work group with a far more marketable skill and a fatter 401K than mine. It is a pretty easy decision to make really, if you don’t have three seperate alimony payments.

So now all of that experience and brain power is gone. Instead of someone on the end of the phone who has done this a hundred times, knows the systems backwards and forwards, knows your contract backwards and forward, has a memorized list of backup hotels and limos in almost every city along with the personal cell phone numbers of who to “really” talk with to get anything done, can tell you how to get to the “other” pickup point and save 30 minutes waiting in line because they have used it themselves, you’ve got a newbie who barely understands the contract she read last month, stressed because everyone in the room is hollering, and calling for a sup or coordinator that already has three other people at the desk asking questions, because she isn’t sure what to do next.

We aren’t the only industry going through this, by far, but we can inconvenience a whole lot more people than most.


I've read a lot of good and wise things on this website, but this is one of the best and wisest. While I disagree with you that the vaccine mandate necessarily causes retirement chaos -- UA, for example, has proved that it's a non-issue -- I couldn't agree more with the rest of your post.

Aviation is an exciting industry to work in, especially for those who are truly passionate. The operation still gets my blood pumping -- there's something really special about watching all the pieces come together and moving millions of people to their destinations. But it's not an especially high paying industry for most management/ops folks, and free travel can only carry the day for so long -- at a certain point, it's more attractive to make more money working less hours and buy your own travel.

I'm a more junior employee, and I've never been more concerned about the "brain drain." In my department, senior folks are leaving faster than they can pass knowledge to the rest of us, and we're having to come to grips with the fact that eventually that knowledge will cease to exist. I'm too young and too junior to be so jaded, but I can't help but feel pangs of dread at what's to come.

When I left the stations, I was the last one that knew how to board a flight without a computer, and where the stickers were stashed. Only had to do it once or twice, but I am still glad that the old-timers made sure I knew how to do it.
 
Chemist
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:09 am

I think it's time to AAvoid this situation.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1793
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:05 pm

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

Compensation is, and always has been driven by supply and demand, in the end. For the foreseeable future, demand will outstrip supply. And as we have all have seen proof of recently, that can inverse in a flash. Asian Recession, 9/11, 2008, 2020, etc.


CEO compensation is not based on supply and demand. Sure, that’s what HR executives and boards will tell you. It is a good old boys club racket. Nothing more.

Pilot compensation would be in a different place without unions.
There are fewer pilots than needed. The training is expensive, and in the US, getting hours needed somewhat a cost too.

If there was more pilots than needed in the market, none of these strike actions or crazy demands would be common place.

Unions are simply leveraging a position of strength and the pilots seem to think that this should be normal.


There has not been a total pilot shortage since the Vietnam War.

There may be occaisional shortages at the regionals.

There will NEVER be a shortage of candidates jobs at major airlines in the USA.

There haven't been strikes in many years in the USA.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:

CEO compensation is not based on supply and demand. Sure, that’s what HR executives and boards will tell you. It is a good old boys club racket. Nothing more.

Pilot compensation would be in a different place without unions.
There are fewer pilots than needed. The training is expensive, and in the US, getting hours needed somewhat a cost too.

If there was more pilots than needed in the market, none of these strike actions or crazy demands would be common place.

Unions are simply leveraging a position of strength and the pilots seem to think that this should be normal.


There has not been a total pilot shortage since the Vietnam War.

There may be occaisional shortages at the regionals.

There will NEVER be a shortage of candidates jobs at major airlines in the USA.

There haven't been strikes in many years in the USA.
Yours is a play on words.

1. There will be no shortage of candidates for jobs at the major airlines because they pay better.

2. A shortage is just that. A shortage i.e. not having enough. Not long ago Kirby was stating how the air force is not training enough pilots.....for them to attract into private service. This is one of the reasons they started an academy.

3. Airlines have yielded to unions and employees. That is not to say that management does not do other dumb stuff.

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