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FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
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AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:47 am

Another Holiday meltdown on the Horizon, combined with the potential of TSA staffing shortages?
Thanksgiving travel start in less than two weeks, and I am told that there is a huge amount of Open Time for that period at my former carrier, (especially FO’s due to the rash of recent upgrading being required), I can only imagine how bad it is at AA to come out with a last minute offer like this. Most folks I know that are willing to work the holidays will wait until the last minute to pick up Op at 200% or even 300%.

Offer letter from the Union:
https://www.alliedpilots.org/Portals/0/ ... 21-006.pdf

The APA Board rejected the offer unanimously, voting 20-0 against it.
The Union wants more input into scheduling, and wants to renegotiate the entire contract.

From OMAAT:

November 23 through November 29, 2021
December 22, 2021, through January 2, 2022
The idea is as follows:

Pilots would receive 150% pay for all flights over peak holiday dates
Pilots who pick up trips during the period would receive 200% pay
Pilots would receive positive space travel to their base; this means that pilots who don’t live at their base would be guaranteed a seat to get to work, rather than having to fly standby.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/america ... LVV63zQ29g
 
Pi7472000
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:52 am

Just avoid flying American or Southwest. Delta and United are good choices as they have not faced this cancellation chaos due to staffing shortages.
 
zuckie13
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:58 am

It'll be interesting to see who blinks first. It'd be bad all around if they blow the holidays and lose a lot of revenue.
 
stlAV8R
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:59 am

The best thing that could happen to AA is for it to completely shut down and start over a la Alitalia. Both sides are so toxic that they'll ruin holiday travel just to win.
 
maverick4002
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:28 pm

I'm returning on an international flight on Nov 27. They better not mess my stuff up!
 
smokeybandit
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:49 pm

I chose not to travel anywhere for the holidays because of concerns of these kind of issues.
 
JohanTally
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:12 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Just avoid flying American or Southwest. Delta and United are good choices as they have not faced this cancellation chaos due to staffing shortages.

Last year it was Delta that couldn't deliver on the busy holiday travel season.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-chr ... tions/amp/
 
Jetport
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:13 pm

If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.
 
F27500
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:41 pm

I've seen it all now .. a company resorting to bribing their employees not to call out sick. Pretty humiliating .. and talk about setting a bad precedent.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:19 pm

Jetport wrote:
If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.


If you believe this is just about rates of compensation, I don't believe you have a true grasp of the issues involved. On the upside, you do have management potential.
 
jetwet1
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:19 pm

Just great, I'm supposed to be making a few flights to CTG over the next 3 months, I really hate to have to switch to UA/DL/CM (schedule and price) but I would also hate to be stranded in CTG....Okay, that's a total lie, but getting stuck in MIA would just be a pain.
 
Dreamflight767
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:24 pm

Management (in all industry) need to understand it isn’t always about $. I would imagine Pilots have been frustrated and angry for a long time and they aren’t been listened to. They have the advantage of being heard now so the half better listen.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:34 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
Jetport wrote:
If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.


If you believe this is just about rates of compensation, I don't believe you have a true grasp of the issues involved. On the upside, you do have management potential.


I hear you, but for me the offer of positive space for commuting is a not insignificant non-pay olive branch. A hard no in the face of some - maybe not enough - effort from the company to improve working conditions is not a way to send a constructive message to management.
 
VMCA787
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:37 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:

If you believe this is just about rates of compensation, I don't believe you have a true grasp of the issues involved. On the upside, you do have management potential.


Boy, you hit the nail on the head! I just love the comments about how much money we (Pilots) make. The problem is all pilots don't make that kind of money. What you have here is a situation where the airline is trying to negotiate in the media. The issue is about jobs! Bribing the pilots or APA only takes care of the problem over the holidays. The problem is long term. AA (mis) management needs to bring more pilots back, like all of them. They need to get a side letter about upgrades and how to handle the problem the company created. To all the people who think that being an airline pilot is a great job, I have one question. Why is there such a retention problem and why aren't the doors being overwhelmed with qualified applicants?

For me it was a great job, on strike 4 times, cutbacks, downgrades all the good things in life! My dad was a surgeon and I should have followed his advice and gone and been a dermatologist!
 
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gdg9
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:06 pm

Jetport wrote:
If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.


Interesting for a senior 777 pilot to turn down over $600 an hour, but it does seem there are other issues at play here.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:16 pm

I would be surprised if AA invited APA to a schedule conference and gave them real power. Scheduling is 'Keys to the kingdom' on pilot labor cost, FA labor cost, aircraft utlization, and gate utilization. There are lots of trips that are FAA-legal that are not necessarily appealing -- you can't have APA veto those and still have a cost-competitive carrier. The decades-long solution is to force those trips upon the less-senior in category. Pilots bidding a new type know that.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:21 pm

Yeah from what I gather this isn't about pilots "not needing the money" it's about putting a Band-Aid on a systemic problem. Band-Aids are great but protecting an underlying wound but eventually wear out and fall off.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:36 pm

Jetport wrote:
If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.



Right?
I’m curious as to what the Union hopes to accomplish by turning this down
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:41 pm

This reminds me of conversations I had with Eastern employees in the early 80's. Yikes.
 
MDC862
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:10 pm

I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.
 
alfa164
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:22 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
This reminds me of conversations I had with Eastern employees in the early 80's. Yikes.


:checkmark: That's the first thing I thought of, too. And we all know how well that ended...

:roll:
 
LHUSA
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:23 pm

MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.


I have to laugh because this is largely accurate. I'm often astonished at the entitled attitudes of my pilot friends (and FA friends too) and the comments they make and expectations they hold. I know it's a tough life, but they did chose it and it feels as though many times they disagree with upper management simply for the sport of it and to inflate their importance rather than resolving issues prudently. It truly is as if they think all management are these cackling, villainous characters whose sole motivation is to ruin the lives of the crew. I fully understand their needs to protect their own livelihood but it's comical how far they take it.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:54 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
Jetport wrote:
If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.


If you believe this is just about rates of compensation, I don't believe you have a true grasp of the issues involved. On the upside, you do have management potential.


I hear you, but for me the offer of positive space for commuting is a not insignificant non-pay olive branch. A hard no in the face of some - maybe not enough - effort from the company to improve working conditions is not a way to send a constructive message to management.


Making advance plans to prevent the holiday flying period from becoming a disaster also helps keep their own members from being stranded out of position in random cities during a meltdown with long hold times into scheduling to try to get home.
 
ozark1
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:23 pm

F27500 wrote:
I've seen it all now .. a company resorting to bribing their employees not to call out sick. Pretty humiliating .. and talk about setting a bad precedent.

Not only bad but terribly sad.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:33 pm

MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

Lol…. You have never actually met anyone from the FAA, have you.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:34 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:

If you believe this is just about rates of compensation, I don't believe you have a true grasp of the issues involved. On the upside, you do have management potential.


I hear you, but for me the offer of positive space for commuting is a not insignificant non-pay olive branch. A hard no in the face of some - maybe not enough - effort from the company to improve working conditions is not a way to send a constructive message to management.


Making advance plans to prevent the holiday flying period from becoming a disaster also helps keep their own members from being stranded out of position in random cities during a meltdown with long hold times into scheduling to try to get home.

Advance planning is talking about it months before, not scrambling because you screwed yourself, and the current bid period has already started.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:50 pm

ozark1 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
I've seen it all now .. a company resorting to bribing their employees not to call out sick. Pretty humiliating .. and talk about setting a bad precedent.

Not only bad but terribly sad.

This is being caused as much by the Vax mandate, as it is anything else.

First they panic cut during Covid, issuing long-term LOA’s to everyone that would take it, but laying off ops and training staff to the bone. You don’t just hire type-rated Training Captains off the street. A lot of those people found other jobs elsewhere, especially in Boxes and Corporate flying.

AA also cut several fleet types, putting a bunch of already senior pilots at the bottom of other lists, contributing greatly to the training backlog as well.

Now you add the Vax mandate into it, and a bunch of retirement-eligible senior pilots call it quits. Now you have to upgrade FO’s adding even more to the training mess. But OOPS, you just can’t upgrade a bunch of FO’s, because other, more Senior Captains on other types want to move into those higher paying slots. Oh look, more training bottle necks.

There are other factors at play as well, like QOL. (This is a REAL issue, folks, especially for commuters. You might live 30 minutes from Miami where you were based pre-Covid, but now have to commute to LAX or PHX because of type changes and bids. Even Commuting to New York can turn a 3-4 day rotation into 5-6 day experience that you will get real tired of, real quick. So the guy says I bid four full days off over the holiday to be with my family, screw it.
 
11C
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:56 pm

MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.


Be careful what you wish for (pilotless airplanes). I am enjoying it, and I don’t begrudge anyone with a skill who earns a decent living. I agree, there are lots of whiners, but there are also plenty of serious people who care about safety. You don’t get a safety system like we have by employing subpar people, and cutting corners. I’d say you are engaging in a bit of whining yourself.
 
subramak1
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:45 pm

To me it looks like AA management has treated its people like shit and now are facing the music. I wonder why so many companies screw up on this basic management premise.
 
Lootess
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:04 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
I've seen it all now .. a company resorting to bribing their employees not to call out sick. Pretty humiliating .. and talk about setting a bad precedent.

Not only bad but terribly sad.

This is being caused as much by the Vax mandate, as it is anything else.

First they panic cut during Covid, issuing long-term LOA’s to everyone that would take it, but laying off ops and training staff to the bone. You don’t just hire type-rated Training Captains off the street. A lot of those people found other jobs elsewhere, especially in Boxes and Corporate flying.

AA also cut several fleet types, putting a bunch of already senior pilots at the bottom of other lists, contributing greatly to the training backlog as well.

Now you add the Vax mandate into it, and a bunch of retirement-eligible senior pilots call it quits. Now you have to upgrade FO’s adding even more to the training mess. But OOPS, you just can’t upgrade a bunch of FO’s, because other, more Senior Captains on other types want to move into those higher paying slots. Oh look, more training bottle necks.

There are other factors at play as well, like QOL. (This is a REAL issue, folks, especially for commuters. You might live 30 minutes from Miami where you were based pre-Covid, but now have to commute to LAX or PHX because of type changes and bids. Even Commuting to New York can turn a 3-4 day rotation into 5-6 day experience that you will get real tired of, real quick. So the guy says I bid four full days off over the holiday to be with my family, screw it.


Pretty much nailed it, they don't call this the great resignation for nothing.

Lots of QoL was lost in all this shuffling of vaccine mandates, fleet simplification, and massive ramp-up of ops after cutting so much early 2020. Aggressiveness on the company's part is getting the reciprocal treatment from APA.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:07 pm

MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.
Last edited by OldB747Driver on Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:11 pm

11C wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.


Be careful what you wish for (pilotless airplanes). I am enjoying it, and I don’t begrudge anyone with a skill who earns a decent living. I agree, there are lots of whiners, but there are also plenty of serious people who care about safety. You don’t get a safety system like we have by employing subpar people, and cutting corners. I’d say you are engaging in a bit of whining yourself.

As the FAA so often likes to remind us, the rules are there for a reason, and they are written in blood.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:21 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.

That’s just it. A lot of people don’t understand how really acute the Pilot shortage really is. The Great Resignation has moved that date up dramatically.

And given current economic realities, we are not far off from another hard downturn, a rinse-repeat cycle.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:24 pm

Management isn’t shy about sticking it to workers, when they can. Why should workers be shy about it? And I am on the management side, always have been. But still… don’t bankrupt your carrier. That’s all I am saying.
 
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UPlog
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:25 pm

AA pilots have been working under an amendable contract since January 2020. They started negotiations in early 2019, and here were are almost 3 years later and still nothing.

A band-aid approach is not the way to solve things, and the company needs to get serious and get down and negotiate an updated agreement.

(for reference the AA pilot JCBA dates from the bankruptcy and US merger and is largely a concessionary one)
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:05 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
A lot of people don’t understand how really acute the Pilot shortage really is. The Great Resignation has moved that date up dramatically.


Where's the mainline pilot shortage? It's looks like DL lost fewer than 200 pilots of the 18K employees that took voluntary separation packages costing $3+ Billion. Being a pilot at DL/AA/UA/WN/FedEx/UPS is still a great deal (and AS only marginally worse).

Yes, there are pilots that got pushed off of retired types at AA and DL and need to be retrained. That's no push to increase wages or accept other higher costs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:12 am

OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.


Nicely put, sir. I have attended the funerals of a half dozen of those slacker AF pilots who never got the chance to be entitled. They just got a epitaph. Oh, and the civilian pilots, four of those had funerals before being entitled airline pilots. If it were so easy a career, everyone would be one.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3162
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:19 am

It's amazingly easy on here to find the people who have never worked as a crewmember. These are exactly the kinds of people that think the lifestyle is easy, with nary a glimmer of experience personally. 15 days off sounds like a lot. Until you have to commute standby the day before and the day after on full planes. Those 15 days off become 7 in a hurry. We get paid well (at least the pilots do), but only when the parking brake is off. All the work we do with that mechanical issue that forces us to delay a flight? Unpaid. The 5-6 hours we might get paid on a 14 hour duty day certainly puts that pay rate into a different perspective. We get paid for half (or less) of the work we do. So forgive me if I'm not especially apologetic about the pay rates, and anyone criticizing a labor group for pursuing a better contract for their members should try doing it before they blanketly look down on it.

Good on the AA pilots. Their contract is lagging far behind their peers, and this stop-gap attempt by AA management in exchange for some sizeable leverage currently held by the pilots is woefully transparent.
 
mga707
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:10 am

OldB747Driver wrote:
Jetport wrote:
On the upside, you do have management potential.


Best line I've read on here in a long time. Kudos!
 
mga707
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:14 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:


Advance planning is talking about it months before, not scrambling because you screwed yourself, and the current bid period has already started.


Bingo. The adage "Your lack of advance planning does not constitute an emergency on my part" applies.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:26 am

The issue is not the pay. It's that AA pilots realize the schedule is just totally impossible and setup for another disaster.

Many pilots got stuck in random cities during the halloween meltdown and no one could get a hold of crew scheduling. Pilots dont want to go thru that again, or maybe even worse if theres a real weather event. Crew scheduling was a total disaster during these melt downs ,crews were just as lost as passengers. Didnt know what to do or how or when they would get home. Many got stuck in random cities and rescheduled with no details of how to get home. That just made the situation worse. Crew schedulibg didnt seem to know where crew was ,ie why we saw such last minute cancels.

Breaks are required and hotels are mandatory time. The holidays it will he even harder for them to get hotels in all those random cities to recover last minute. The pilots know this, halloween hotels were available, thanksgiving and xmas finding all those hotels to recover will be much harder. Would take even longer to pull out of the staffing tail spin. AA needs a reasonable holiday schedule that's just what has to happen ie why the pilots want to be involved
 
Busyboy2
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:57 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:48 am

Jetport wrote:
If the pilots are so wealthy they can turn this down, they likely don't need jobs at all. I know I would take time and half for my normal schedule and double time for extra shifts, especially with how good American Pilot's base pay is.


What you would do is irrelevant
 
zuckie13
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:16 am

OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.


I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:53 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
The issue is not the pay. It's that AA pilots realize the schedule is just totally impossible and setup for another disaster.

Many pilots got stuck in random cities during the halloween meltdown and no one could get a hold of crew scheduling. Pilots dont want to go thru that again, or maybe even worse if theres a real weather event. Crew scheduling was a total disaster during these melt downs ,crews were just as lost as passengers. Didnt know what to do or how or when they would get home. Many got stuck in random cities and rescheduled with no details of how to get home. That just made the situation worse. Crew schedulibg didnt seem to know where crew was ,ie why we saw such last minute cancels.

Breaks are required and hotels are mandatory time. The holidays it will he even harder for them to get hotels in all those random cities to recover last minute. The pilots know this, halloween hotels were available, thanksgiving and xmas finding all those hotels to recover will be much harder. Would take even longer to pull out of the staffing tail spin. AA needs a reasonable holiday schedule that's just what has to happen ie why the pilots want to be involved

Having been on the receiving end of those meltdown phonecalls, I feel your pain.
It is just as bad, or even worse, in scheduling and support than it is for the line. They got cut to the bone like everyone else, and suffered a huge brain drain on top of it. This has been emphasized by several meltdowns since peak summer, across several carriers.

The Management burnout is real, as well.
They let pretty much all of the juniors go, leaving only senior staff and management in the ops departments. When the Fed money came, many chose to not return, due to Fed handouts and plenty of other higher paying jobs available. In our case, they didn’t even begin the first new hire training group until May, for the summer crunch. Many in scheduling or support don’t come back after the first or second major meltdown, too many other jobs out there with a whole lot less stress if you aren’t committed to it.

Anyone that has been in this business longer than a month realizes that you have to step up when the schit hits the fan, or else everything falls apart. You do whatever it takes to rebuild the operation. Over the years, I have pulled several 48 hr shifts in the stations, and plenty of 16-20 hr ones at HQ. Been the last group to leave the building and lock the doors forever at a couple of carriers, too. It is what it is…

But you can only do that for so long. Don’t get me wrong, I loved my position, but at some point you begin the “ Is this really worth it?” calculation, as many are being forced to right now. In my case, it was the third round of “Go Away” checks last fall that tipped my decision. I have other skills, and a decent 401k, so why not? I wasn’t the only one, by far. And now the mandate is forcing people that are already retirement eligible to make that same decision, in work group with a far more marketable skill and a fatter 401K than mine. It is a pretty easy decision to make really, if you don’t have three seperate alimony payments.

So now all of that experience and brain power is gone. Instead of someone on the end of the phone who has done this a hundred times, knows the systems backwards and forwards, knows your contract backwards and forward, has a memorized list of backup hotels and limos in almost every city along with the personal cell phone numbers of who to “really” talk with to get anything done, can tell you how to get to the “other” pickup point and save 30 minutes waiting in line because they have used it themselves, you’ve got a newbie who barely understands the contract she read last month, stressed because everyone in the room is hollering, and calling for a sup or coordinator that already has three other people at the desk asking questions, because she isn’t sure what to do next.

We aren’t the only industry going through this, by far, but we can inconvenience a whole lot more people than most.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1935
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:01 am

zuckie13 wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.


I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.

Spend 100-150 nights a year in hotels, usually in a different city every night, away from your family for years on end, and then get back to us, K?
 
flyboy730
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:16 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:14 am

OldB747Driver wrote:
MDC862 wrote:
I am amazed that guys who only work 10-15 days a month, scream about "quality of life" which means max days off and sitting at home, choose to live in other parts of the Country or world and commute, are paid an exorbitant salary for 1,000 hours working max a year, get per diem money, free travel for them n family, chose this profession praying they would get picked up by a major carrier because they would be set for life with A&B funds, trained mostly in military under tax payer footing the bill, yet non-stop complain how difficult they have it and want more.

Enjoy it while you can. It is only a matter of time before pilot less travel becomes a reality. We have fought 2 wars with the technology and Airbus is incorporating part of it in next system upgrades. Maybe then the complaining will stop.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Do you even understand where these numbers come from?
  • I ask because our days are rarely 8 hours (more like 10-14).
  • I ask because to log 1000 flight hours probably requires another 1000 hours of unpaid/unlogged time to acquire.
  • I ask because per diem is to compensate for the extra $$ we have to pony up to buy our meals away from home and places where a hamburger might cost $15 and is the only thing we can find at 11pm.
  • I ask because pilots know that moving their family around for every jump in employment or upgrade/transfer to another type is more disruptive than for us to undertake the four-letter word that is "commute".
  • I ask because even those "free-loading" military-trained guys not only sacrificed a LOT of their own freedoms and put their very lives on the line for our nation, but had to prepare themselves to be selected to get those pilot slots - something a LOT of "kids" preferred not to do. (BTW, if you have a problem paying for their training, maybe you need to write your Congressperson and explain why we shouldn't be spending ~800 Billion/year on that effort, not the pilots that fulfill the mission)

One last thought - if a company is justified in operating in a capitalistic manner, why are pilots penalized for doing the same? If there's a high demand for pilots but not enough qualified to fill that demand, the laws of economics say pilots just got more expensive. So be it.


^^^you get it!!

I remember back in 01/02 and 07-09 when we were told in the regionals very clearly that if we don’t like things, there are 1000’s of pilots lined up to take our jobs. There was never a hint of human compassion given to us. As with so many things in life, what goes around generally comes around. The companies and management teams always took advantage of all leverage in every downturn, so why shouldn’t the work groups do the same? As I learned a long time ago, take everything you can because in this industry it is only a matter of time before they will take everything they can.
 
departedflights
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:20 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Having been on the receiving end of those meltdown phone calls, I feel your pain.
It is just as bad, or even worse, in scheduling and support than it is for the line.


As a crew member... I want to say that I needed a good laugh tonight! Thank you for providing it! I owe you! That was great!
 
OldB747Driver
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:36 am

zuckie13 wrote:
I think it's better to try to compare apples to apples.

You are saying that a pilot really works about 2000 hours a year. So does someone with a 40ish hour a week desk job.
A pilot happens to do it in fewer, but longer days, but the number of hours is similar.
Due to the way pilot pay is done, your main salary is the hours that you are actually flying - but - that rate is a far higher hourly rate than my desk job salary.
The annual pay of a pilot at a major with even just a few years of experience blows most desk jobs out of the water.
So yes, there may be some hardships, but in raw dollars - they are compensated for it.

Well, to all pilot-wannabe desk-jockeys out there, have at it - the money tree is waiting to be harvested and is yours for the taking. The jig is up, fellow professional pilots; they discovered our ruse. Let's not distract them from learning what an underworked, overpaid life we enjoy.
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:37 am

I'd welcome anyone who thinks pilots live on easy street to come any work my schedule this month. As awarded I work 16 days (4, 4 day trips) for 90.5 hours of credit, and 297 hours of time away from base ( thats from report on day 1, to release on day 4). The majority of my trips report before 06:30 on the first day, and finish after 21:00 on the last day. For comparison sake, 40 hours a week, working 4 weeks a month is 160 hours. So I'm at "work' over 100 hours more than the average cube dweller.

You might as well forget about employee travel benefits, it's near impossible to get on a flight standby, to anywhere you want to go. For many years now, we have been forced to buy tickets for family vacations.

I've lost count of how many anniversaries, birthdays, holidays etc I've missed over the years. Thank god for an understanding and supportive wife.

I had the opportunity to talk to an old friend who is an AA pilot in an airport this week. It sounds like things will get much worse, before they get any better. They are not filling new hire classes, and check airman are resigning en masse, with no new applicants to fill the positions.

Over the last several decades, airline pilot has gone from a stellar career, to just a decent job.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: AA Pilots Union Rejects 150%/200% ExtraPay Offer for Working the Holiday Periods

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:44 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
I've seen it all now .. a company resorting to bribing their employees not to call out sick. Pretty humiliating .. and talk about setting a bad precedent.

Not only bad but terribly sad.

This is being caused as much by the Vax mandate, as it is anything else.

First they panic cut during Covid, issuing long-term LOA’s to everyone that would take it, but laying off ops and training staff to the bone. You don’t just hire type-rated Training Captains off the street. A lot of those people found other jobs elsewhere, especially in Boxes and Corporate flying.

AA also cut several fleet types, putting a bunch of already senior pilots at the bottom of other lists, contributing greatly to the training backlog as well.

Now you add the Vax mandate into it, and a bunch of retirement-eligible senior pilots call it quits. Now you have to upgrade FO’s adding even more to the training mess. But OOPS, you just can’t upgrade a bunch of FO’s, because other, more Senior Captains on other types want to move into those higher paying slots. Oh look, more training bottle necks.

There are other factors at play as well, like QOL. (This is a REAL issue, folks, especially for commuters. You might live 30 minutes from Miami where you were based pre-Covid, but now have to commute to LAX or PHX because of type changes and bids. Even Commuting to New York can turn a 3-4 day rotation into 5-6 day experience that you will get real tired of, real quick. So the guy says I bid four full days off over the holiday to be with my family, screw it.


If it’s the vaccine mandate, why isn’t United, Frontier, Atlas, Alaska, etc., etc., etc. having the same issue?

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