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Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:35 pm

Welcome to the Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread.

Please add your comments below. This thread is for Boeing Orders and General Discussion related to Boeing aircraft. The scope of the thread has been broadened compared to previous airshows to keep moderation down to a minimum

Please keep the thread on topic and be respectful to your fellow users, no personal attacks or flamebait please
 
xwb777
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:26 pm

Could we see Akasa firming up its B737MAX order at the show?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:16 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Could we see Akasa firming up its B737MAX order at the show?


I’d be surprised if it wasn’t
 
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qf789
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:44 am

Boeing says they are not at a point to launch a 777X freighter or announce customers

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 36576?s=20
 
Opus99
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:51 am

qf789 wrote:
Boeing says they are not at a point to launch a 777X freighter or announce customers

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 36576?s=20

Qatar being their silver bullet is boycotting the Dubai airshow. Bloomberg suggested 2 days ago. Let’s see how things Unravel over the coming weeks
 
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:56 am

Boeing also saying 777X planned first delivery is still 2023 and 787 deliveries are to resume soon though no date or timeline mentioned

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... ce=twitter
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:07 pm

Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards as well as discussing a re-engined 767, which dates back a few years if I recall?

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 43106?s=20

767X article: https://samchui.com/2019/10/11/boeing-s ... Y-3-2BBxro
 
airlineworker
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:43 pm

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards as well as discussing a re-engined 767, which dates back a few years if I recall?

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 43106?s=20

767X article: https://samchui.com/2019/10/11/boeing-s ... Y-3-2BBxro


767, my favorite widebody. 2-3-2 seating affords easy access to aisles and fewer dreaded middle seats.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:56 pm

They nixed the idea of a 767 when UA asked them.

https://monroeaerospace.com/blog/its-of ... ming-back/
 
BarrenLucidity
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:11 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
They nixed the idea of a 767 when UA asked them.

https://monroeaerospace.com/blog/its-of ... ming-back/


The full tweet is focused on re-engine a 767 freighter.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:22 pm

airlineworker wrote:
767, my favorite widebody. 2-3-2 seating affords easy access to aisles and fewer dreaded middle seats.


Never heard of packages complaining about not having aisle access :scratchchin:
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:24 pm

airlineworker wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards as well as discussing a re-engined 767, which dates back a few years if I recall?

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 43106?s=20

767X article: https://samchui.com/2019/10/11/boeing-s ... Y-3-2BBxro


767, my favorite widebody. 2-3-2 seating affords easy access to aisles and fewer dreaded middle seats.


As per the tweet, a re-engined 767 would focus on a freighter version.

I really hope Boeing can re-engine a freighter version of the 767. I think it would sell well and cover a segment of the market that has few alternative options.

I hope we hear more about this going forward.
 
JibberJim
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:25 pm

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards as well as discussing a re-engined 767, which dates back a few years if I recall?

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 43106?s=20

767X article: https://samchui.com/2019/10/11/boeing-s ... Y-3-2BBxro


Is there anything else than the tweet about the exemption, announcing asking for an exemption right when everyone is looking at COP26 seems an "interesting" PR choice?
 
fcogafa
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:46 pm

How would a B764 capacity compare to the MD11, is it a good replacement?
 
SteelChair
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:20 pm

More talk about re-engined 767F's?

Talk talk talk no action. Why even release anything when there is nothing to say? The inaction om the 767 and the statement on no 777X yet means there is insufficient demand.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:26 pm

fcogafa wrote:
How would a B764 capacity compare to the MD11, is it a good replacement?


The MD-11 sits in the middle between the A330-300 and 777-200. So the MD-11 is a good portion bigger than the 767-400. AFAIK the 767-400 was developed as a DC-10/L-1011 replacement in mind.
 
2175301
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:34 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
767, my favorite widebody. 2-3-2 seating affords easy access to aisles and fewer dreaded middle seats.


Never heard of packages complaining about not having aisle access :scratchchin:


"Smart" packages are just starting to appear in shipping.... So, the freight companies had better plan for their talk-back.
 
2175301
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:41 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
They nixed the idea of a 767 when UA asked them.

https://monroeaerospace.com/blog/its-of ... ming-back/


That was a passenger version. Not a freighter.

A B764F with modern engines (same engines as the 748, a derivative of the 787 GE engines) was 1st proposed by Boeing several years ago. It would meet 2028 requirements, and the modern engines would fit under the wings of the B764 as it has taller landing gear than the previous versions of the 767.

My inside source at Boeing back then told me that the 764F was a go as soon as either FedEx or UPS was willing to order them and that Boeing was maintaining a small project/design team working on it.

However, since FedEx and UPS, or anyone else, can currently buy the 763F cheaper... it does not make sense at this time. My guess, 1st order and 764F launch will be about 2024 or 2025.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:36 pm

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards


So which aircraft currently flying don't meet the standards, and if so, how come they are allowed to fly?
 
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DBCoop3r
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:52 pm

edealinfo wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards


So which aircraft currently flying don't meet the standards, and if so, how come they are allowed to fly?

ICAO is not a government.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:10 pm

edealinfo wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards


So which aircraft currently flying don't meet the standards, and if so, how come they are allowed to fly?


The 2016 ICAO standards apply to NEW frames delivered from 2028. Old stuff can continue flying.
 
2175301
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:18 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards


So which aircraft currently flying don't meet the standards, and if so, how come they are allowed to fly?


The 2016 ICAO standards apply to NEW frames delivered from 2028. Old stuff can continue flying.


A better explanation is:

It is my understanding that the current production models of the 767F, 777F, and 747F do not meet the IACO standards to continue production (final assembly) from some date in 2028.

The 747 line is being closed down, and the 2028 standards only affect Boeing production of the 767F & 777F freighters after that date in 2028.

It is my understanding that all variants of the 737max and the 787 currently meet the 2028 standards and can continue production past 2028.

Edited to add: The 777X (all variants) and the proposed 764F all meet the 2028 standards.
Last edited by 2175301 on Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ClarkeKent
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:20 pm

edealinfo wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards


So which aircraft currently flying don't meet the standards, and if so, how come they are allowed to fly?


ICAO ANNEX 16 VOLUME III essentially inhibits new builds that don’t meet the 2028 requirements. The 767 currently does not meet these requirements. A GEnX on the 767 would fix this..
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:31 am

ClarkeKent wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Boeing is seeking an exemption from the ICAO CO2 standards


So which aircraft currently flying don't meet the standards, and if so, how come they are allowed to fly?


ICAO ANNEX 16 VOLUME III essentially inhibits new builds that don’t meet the 2028 requirements. The 767 currently does not meet these requirements. A GEnX on the 767 would fix this..


An engine upgrade also conveniently works for a future military derivatives as well. Better fuel efficiency = more time on station, more fuel offload. Unfortunately the 767 airfoil is really dated, similar to the original 747.
 
PITFlyer330
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:36 am

are there usually orders on day 1 of the show? Sunday?
 
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:01 am

Icelease orders 11 737-800BCF, Boeing also announces 3 more passenger to freighter conversion lines for 737-800BCF, 2 in Canada, 1 in the UK

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 06473?s=20
 
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:12 am

qf789 wrote:
Icelease orders 11 737-800BCF, Boeing also announces 3 more passenger to freighter conversion lines for 737-800BCF, 2 in Canada, 1 in the UK

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 06473?s=20


Boeing Press Release

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2021-11-14 ... 737-800BCF

In 2022, conversion line will open at Boeing MRO at LGW and in 2023 2 conversion lines will open at KF Aerospace in Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:45 pm

qf789 wrote:
Icelease orders 11 737-800BCF, Boeing also announces 3 more passenger to freighter conversion lines for 737-800BCF, 2 in Canada, 1 in the UK

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 06473?s=20


I wonder if FI will use some of these to replace their B752 freighters. Those are over 30 years old.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:03 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I wonder if FI will use some of these to replace their B752 freighters. Those are over 30 years old.

Even fish deserves something younger! :old:
 
 
tomcat
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:04 am

While waiting for the next press conference maybe we can enjoy the flight demo of the 777X. Watch out at about 5:30!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P66Kf17-fSc
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:43 am

Emirates SkyCargo for two B777-200LRF, though these were already on the books as UFOs:

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021/emirates-orders-more-777fs-for-skycargo-freight-arm/146412.article
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:32 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Emirates SkyCargo for two B777-200LRF, though these were already on the books as UFOs:

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021/emirates-orders-more-777fs-for-skycargo-freight-arm/146412.article


I wonder if these are tied to 777X delays? Bit of spoiler for the A350F launch too. Is just two freighters a bit disappointing from EK at its home air show? Or a sign that ordering several hundred of the latest wide body and cancelling them later not a great plan?
 
texl1649
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:56 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
Emirates SkyCargo for two B777-200LRF, though these were already on the books as UFOs:

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021/emirates-orders-more-777fs-for-skycargo-freight-arm/146412.article


I wonder if these are tied to 777X delays? Bit of spoiler for the A350F launch too. Is just two freighters a bit disappointing from EK at its home air show? Or a sign that ordering several hundred of the latest wide body and cancelling them later not a great plan?


Oh the commentary is funny. Maybe EK just has a need for 2 more freighters, and this is still the only official one offered right now (A350F is not industrially launched, only ATO, would make no sense to order just 2 of them). Boeing has the capacity to deliver these fairly quickly, common with their existing fleet of 777's, probably evaluating ramping up 77F production until 779 deliveries start in about 22-23 months, less than 50 on backlog I think.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:36 pm

With these 2 777Fs with quick delivery slots and the 4 777-300ERSFs (+ "kind of" options for more) that will come in 2023 (at the earliest) it looks like EK has made their choice for their Freighter fleet in the coming years. It doesn't look like they will be launch customer for either the A350F or the 777XF. It's no issue for them to keep on flying the current fleet of 777Fs until the end of the decade. Anything they order now is just quick expansion, why wait until after 2025 to grow?
 
2175301
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:16 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Emirates SkyCargo for two B777-200LRF, though these were already on the books as UFOs:

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021/emirates-orders-more-777fs-for-skycargo-freight-arm/146412.article



The article says that these 2 were the 2 "undisclosed customer" 777F's listed on Boeing order site, which means that they are not a new order. Just revelation of who ordered them.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:24 pm

I wonder if we see more identifications of the recent undisclosed 777F orders in the coming days.
 
avi8
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:49 pm

Am I the only one who thinks this show was extremely underwhelming for Boeing?

Although, they did get massive orders from UA and WN earlier in the year.
 
Opus99
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:51 pm

avi8 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks this show was extremely underwhelming for Boeing?

Although, they did get massive orders from UA and WN earlier in the year.

You’re not. But let us see what happens. I think this airshow was more about explaining themselves clearly than booking orders
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:54 pm

Today they had their most (our or five) press conferences booked but all in all very little news. At least nothing headline worthy. Last two days only one on each day. So I agree on mostly talking to (potential) customers, suppliers and important people.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:59 pm

An airshow is of course not only about new aircraft deals. A new contract with a titanium supplier is also important for them.

It also not over yet, it wouldn't the 1st time a flood of orders come on the last couple of days. But in the current climate nothing is as it was like 5 years ago.
 
T4thH
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:10 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
An airshow is of course not only about new aircraft deals. A new contract with a titanium supplier is also important for them.

It also not over yet, it wouldn't the 1st time a flood of orders come on the last couple of days. But in the current climate nothing is as it was like 5 years ago.

We have seen a "high" number of orders for new build and freighter conversions for Boeing, especially as they are from several different customers (also a "high" number), and for the overall small freighter market, these are really excellent numbers in total and for the number of customers. More can not expected during an Airshow, so Boeing is doing excellent. Please note "high" is in brackets, as "high" for the small freighter market is another "high" as for the Smallbody market as example.

But yes, I had expected few orders for the B737 Max and perhaps some for the B787 till now.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:54 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Emirates SkyCargo for two B777-200LRF, though these were already on the books as UFOs:

2175301 wrote:
The article says that these 2 were the 2 "undisclosed customer" 777F's listed on Boeing order site, which means that they are not a new order. Just revelation of who ordered them.


Hence why he noted "though these were already on the books as UFOs" :-D
 
2175301
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:18 pm

T4thH wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
An airshow is of course not only about new aircraft deals. A new contract with a titanium supplier is also important for them.

It also not over yet, it wouldn't the 1st time a flood of orders come on the last couple of days. But in the current climate nothing is as it was like 5 years ago.

We have seen a "high" number of orders for new build and freighter conversions for Boeing, especially as they are from several different customers (also a "high" number), and for the overall small freighter market, these are really excellent numbers in total and for the number of customers. More can not expected during an Airshow, so Boeing is doing excellent. Please note "high" is in brackets, as "high" for the small freighter market is another "high" as for the Smallbody market as example.

But yes, I had expected few orders for the B737 Max and perhaps some for the B787 till now.


Boeing has a history of not focusing on Airshows for announcing orders... As far as I can tell, they always come in with low numbers.... and count on the orders between airshows. Total Annual Orders is what matters, not just what you might sign at an airshow.

Pay attention to how many of the Airbus announcements are actually LOI's at each airshow.
 
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keesje
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:42 pm

2175301 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
An airshow is of course not only about new aircraft deals. A new contract with a titanium supplier is also important for them.

It also not over yet, it wouldn't the 1st time a flood of orders come on the last couple of days. But in the current climate nothing is as it was like 5 years ago.

We have seen a "high" number of orders for new build and freighter conversions for Boeing, especially as they are from several different customers (also a "high" number), and for the overall small freighter market, these are really excellent numbers in total and for the number of customers. More can not expected during an Airshow, so Boeing is doing excellent. Please note "high" is in brackets, as "high" for the small freighter market is another "high" as for the Smallbody market as example.

But yes, I had expected few orders for the B737 Max and perhaps some for the B787 till now.


Boeing has a history of not focusing on Airshows for announcing orders... As far as I can tell, they always come in with low numbers.... and count on the orders between airshows. Total Annual Orders is what matters, not just what you might sign at an airshow.

Pay attention to how many of the Airbus announcements are actually LOI's at each airshow.


That seems an opportunistic observation..

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airs ... ZF20131113
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:50 am

Air Tanzania shops at Boeing for one additional B787-8, two B737MAXs and one B767-300F:

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/air- ... -at-boeing
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:01 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
Air Tanzania shops at Boeing for one additional B787-8, two B737MAXs and one B767-300F:

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/air- ... -at-boeing

Nice little order, but I hope Boeing asks for 70% deposit before proceeding with building the airframe. Their current fleet is all over the place and previously their fleet were impounded in some airport for non-payment of fees.

What a diverse fleet: Dash 8 (76 seats), A220 (132 seats), B737MAX (170-230 seats), B787-8 (262 seats), then B767-300F.
 
Someone83
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:34 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
Air Tanzania shops at Boeing for one additional B787-8, two B737MAXs and one B767-300F:

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/air- ... -at-boeing


This is already firm, as it was previously booked as an unidentified ordre

https://www.stocktitan.net/news/BA/air- ... evdkf.html
 
LTEN11
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:03 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
Air Tanzania shops at Boeing for one additional B787-8, two B737MAXs and one B767-300F:

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/air- ... -at-boeing


More Giraffes on tails, that's got to be a good thing :D
 
chiki
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Boeing Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:36 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Air Tanzania shops at Boeing for one additional B787-8, two B737MAXs and one B767-300F:

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/air- ... -at-boeing

Nice little order, but I hope Boeing asks for 70% deposit before proceeding with building the airframe. Their current fleet is all over the place and previously their fleet were impounded in some airport for non-payment of fees.

What a diverse fleet: Dash 8 (76 seats), A220 (132 seats), B737MAX (170-230 seats), B787-8 (262 seats), then B767-300F.
I think they did a good job in right sizing their fleet, for a small carrier,

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