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Opus99
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:54 am

checklist350 wrote:
No mention yet for the Air Lease LOI for 111 aircraft including the A350F? Does this count as a launch order?
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... ility-fund

25 A220-300
55 A321 neo
20 A321 XLR
4 A330 neo
7 A350F

To be fair a lot of airshow orders are LOIs before they become firm in the coming months/weeks
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:01 am

checklist350 wrote:
No mention yet for the Air Lease LOI for 111 aircraft including the A350F? Does this count as a launch order?
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... ility-fund

25 A220-300
55 A321 neo
20 A321 XLR
4 A330 neo
7 A350F

Of course this was already posted here in this thread, see page 1, post 44.
 
A350ForEver
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:11 am

BobMUC wrote:
Press release from Airbus:

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... y-aircraft

And to be precise: It's a MoU and not an order yet!


Yes, but a MoU is better than nothing :D
Very very good DAS 2021 for Airbus ;)
 
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keesje
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:31 am

Jazeera Airways MoM for A320NEO and A321NEO

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/aviation/d ... rways-deal

While the executives described the deal as a memorandum of understanding rather than a firm order, Rohit Ramachandran, CEO of Jazeera Airways, said he considered the handshake “to far exceed any immediate formal collateral” behind the agreement.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:49 am

keesje wrote:
Jazeera Airways MoM for A320NEO and A321NEO

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/aviation/d ... rways-deal

While the executives described the deal as a memorandum of understanding rather than a firm order, Rohit Ramachandran, CEO of Jazeera Airways, said he considered the handshake “to far exceed any immediate formal collateral” behind the agreement.


MoM - Memorandum Of Misunderstanding? :lol:
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:54 am

 
 
Opus99
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:56 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:

Love that for Ibom Air. They’ve been leasing 220s from Egypt air and it’s confirmation that they love them
 
PhilipBass
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:02 am

Every A220 sale is a confirmation of the qualities of the plane. It is just so much "easier" to lease a used 737 or 319 or an Embraer. The quality of the plane makes a compelling case for placing the order instead of going with an existing model.
 
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keesje
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:08 am

scbriml wrote:
keesje wrote:
Jazeera Airways MoM for A320NEO and A321NEO

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/aviation/d ... rways-deal

While the executives described the deal as a memorandum of understanding rather than a firm order, Rohit Ramachandran, CEO of Jazeera Airways, said he considered the handshake “to far exceed any immediate formal collateral” behind the agreement.


MoM - Memorandum Of Misunderstanding? :lol:


While a contract is a contract, I've seen formal contracts still there while both partners grew apart meanwhile & silently agreed it was over.

At the other side there are long term informal agreements both sides will go a long way honoring without even looking for formalities.

The Chinese & Japanese are often second category.
 
StTim
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:27 am

I was always taught that when you need to formally go back to the wording of the contract the relationship is already breaking down.

I only had to use it once as a shot over the bows so to speak.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:43 am

scbriml wrote:
keesje wrote:
Jazeera Airways MoM for A320NEO and A321NEO

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/aviation/d ... rways-deal

While the executives described the deal as a memorandum of understanding rather than a firm order, Rohit Ramachandran, CEO of Jazeera Airways, said he considered the handshake “to far exceed any immediate formal collateral” behind the agreement.


MoM - Memorandum Of Misunderstanding? :lol:

While not enjoying the best of days ATM, this retort brought a hoot of laughter and brightened my day!

Perhaps Boeing will now set to work on developing the MoU
 
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scbriml
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:55 am

keesje wrote:
scbriml wrote:
keesje wrote:
Jazeera Airways MoM for A320NEO and A321NEO

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/aviation/d ... rways-deal



MoM - Memorandum Of Misunderstanding? :lol:


While a contract is a contract, I've seen formal contracts still there while both partners grew apart meanwhile & silently agreed it was over.

At the other side there are long term informal agreements both sides will go a long way honoring without even looking for formalities.

The Chinese & Japanese are often second category.


You completely missed the joke. ;)
 
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:24 pm

sassiciai wrote:
scbriml wrote:
keesje wrote:
Jazeera Airways MoM for A320NEO and A321NEO

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/aviation/d ... rways-deal



MoM - Memorandum Of Misunderstanding? :lol:

While not enjoying the best of days ATM, this retort brought a hoot of laughter and brightened my day!

Perhaps Boeing will now set to work on developing the MoU


You mean a Middle of Universe aircraft? :biggrin:

I admit Scbriml's joke is far better :laughing:
 
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keesje
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:32 pm

MoM iso MuO? Ok, don't tell my Mom.. No major announcements from the regional big 3 airlines so far.
 
Opus99
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:40 pm

keesje wrote:
MoM iso MuO? Ok, don't tell my Mom.. No major announcements from the regional big 3 airlines so far.

I think the regional big 3 are on a big break from big orders
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:53 pm

MoU?

Maybe after "Dreamliner", the MoU should be "Master-of-the-Universe Liner"
 
Someone83
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:59 pm

Air Senegal is to lease 5 A220s from Macquarie

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021 ... 39.article
 
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keesje
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:09 pm

The A220 is gaining some orders from various new customers. Apparently the Canadians did/ do a good job. The pressure to increase production quickly must be rising and the A220 supply chain is negotiating.. Leasing companies that took the gamble 5-10 yrs ago are getting rewarded.
 
T4thH
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:28 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Air Senegal is to lease 5 A220s from Macquarie

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021 ... 39.article

The big question is now: Is this an independent additional order to the already existing firmed for Air Senegal for A220-300; or is this a swap, so the order from Air Senegal of 5 of the 8 jets is transferred to Macquairie? In this case, the Airbus order book will be reduced by 5.

Macquary has already several times reduced the order numbers for the A220 as they were not able to place them. So if the lessor or Air Senegal reduces the order number by 5 jets, it stays the same (and pretty sure, the lessor is the more save partner for Airbus then a small new started airline in Africa.
Last edited by T4thH on Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tvh
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:32 pm

T4thH wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
Air Senegal is to lease 5 A220s from Macquarie

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021 ... 39.article

The big question is now: Is this an independent additional order to the already existing firmed for Air Senegal for A220-300; or is this a swap, so the order from Air Senegal of 5 of the 8 jets is transferred to Macquaire? In this case, the Airbus order book will be reduced by 5.

Could also be a sale and lease back.
 
T4thH
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:35 pm

tvh wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
Air Senegal is to lease 5 A220s from Macquarie

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021 ... 39.article

The big question is now: Is this an independent additional order to the already existing firmed for Air Senegal for A220-300; or is this a swap, so the order from Air Senegal of 5 of the 8 jets is transferred to Macquaire? In this case, the Airbus order book will be reduced by 5.

Could also be a sale and lease back.


I have just further edited my former post, you were just to fast.. sale and lease back....The Macquaire order book will be reduced by 5....no this does not fit.
My edited text:
The big question is now: Is this an independent additional order to the already existing firmed for Air Senegal for A220-300; or is this a swap, so the order from Air Senegal of 5 of the 8 jets is transferred to Macquairie? In this case, the Airbus order book will be reduced by 5.

Macquary has already several times reduced the order numbers for the A220 as they were not able to place them. So if the lessor or Air Senegal reduces the order number by 5 jets, it stays the same (and pretty sure, the lessor is the more save partner for Airbus then a small new started airline in Africa.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:31 pm

Do leasing companies actually take a gamble if their frames do not get built until there is a customer for them? I haven't heard of many Leasing company while tails

keesje wrote:
The A220 is gaining some orders from various new customers. Apparently the Canadians did/ do a good job. The pressure to increase production quickly must be rising and the A220 supply chain is negotiating.. Leasing companies that took the gamble 5-10 yrs ago are getting rewarded.
 
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keesje
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:34 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Do leasing companies actually take a gamble if their frames do not get built until there is a customer for them? I haven't heard of many Leasing company while tails

keesje wrote:
The A220 is gaining some orders from various new customers. Apparently the Canadians did/ do a good job. The pressure to increase production quickly must be rising and the A220 supply chain is negotiating.. Leasing companies that took the gamble 5-10 yrs ago are getting rewarded.


They negotiated pricing & conditions when BBD badly needed commitments & they can lease them out in a situation when the market wants them and the supplier is close to over-committing on deliveries..
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:48 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
Duke91 wrote:
Judging by the stock movements, it seems as if Boeing won almost 400 orders the first day in Dubai

and airbus only up 1.7%. It is an excellent performance for Airbus but the markets don't recognize it but you can't say the Markets have already priced it. The market can't really afford to price it in until contracts are signed.


Yes, I see it more as a comment on where the stocks started. Boeing has been down since 2020, so an investor might sense an opportunity if there are signs that commercial aviation is rebounding ... which could be one take-away from the Airbus orders.

(Or, says my cynical side: it's stock prices... like there's logic?)
 
Cardude2
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:30 pm

Heres where we stand:

35x A220-300
281x A321 Neo
49x A321 Xlr
4x A330 neo
2x A330MRTT
7x A350F

order conversion of 38x A320 Neo's to A321 Neo's

I'm not counting MOU's but I am counting LOI's, and to answer a question earlier yes the 7 LOI's for the A350F's are launch orders.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:07 am

keesje wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Do leasing companies actually take a gamble if their frames do not get built until there is a customer for them? I haven't heard of many Leasing company while tails

keesje wrote:
The A220 is gaining some orders from various new customers. Apparently the Canadians did/ do a good job. The pressure to increase production quickly must be rising and the A220 supply chain is negotiating.. Leasing companies that took the gamble 5-10 yrs ago are getting rewarded.


They negotiated pricing & conditions when BBD badly needed commitments & they can lease them out in a situation when the market wants them and the supplier is close to over-committing on deliveries..

I got curious on this, not to rain down on everyone's parade, A220 has some lessors' deal which are quite substantial if you add them up:
Air Lease Corporation - 50 (the previous deal excluding recent DAS'21 order)
Ilyushin Finance Co.- 14
Lease Corporation International - 20
Macquarie AirFinance - 29
Nordic Aviation Capital - 20
Odyssey Airlines - 10

That's around 143 airframes. Have they been allocated for or delivered? I understand those of Ilyushin Finance Co have been delivered but no customer yet. Tracking these airframes might need quite an effort and lessors may need sometime to clear their logs too.

Anyhow, a good show by all OEMs in DAS'21.
 
T4thH
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:34 am

Ups...we all have all missed something.

Yes Ibom Air has ordered 10x A220, but not 10x A220-300. All news only say: 10x A220...and we have estimated 10x A220-300, but this seems to be wrong.
According "aerotelegraph"" from Germany, these were 3x A220-300 and 7x A220-100. See attached the "aerotelegraph" Dubai Airshow listing, just click through the images.
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/die-bestellungen-der-dubai-airshow-2021

So also the last meme here in Anet by some, the A220-100 is dead as a Dodo...is for the bin.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:13 am

The reality of Nigerian airlines actually taking delivery of new build aircraft orders isn't good at all so I wouldn't hold your breath....
 
Opus99
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:06 am

fcogafa wrote:
The reality of Nigerian airlines actually taking delivery of new build aircraft orders isn't good at all so I wouldn't hold your breath....

Air peace has been taking deliveries of their E2s but yes you have a point
 
T4thH
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:23 pm

fcogafa wrote:
The reality of Nigerian airlines actually taking delivery of new build aircraft orders isn't good at all so I wouldn't hold your breath....

Ibom Air is flying with two wet leased A220-300 from Egypt Air and if I do not mix it, there is a big development fund for Africa, located in US, behind them, they seems to be successful now and happy with the A220, the order for 10 A220 is not so big and an order for the A220-100 is useful, as not all runways in Africa are long, and these airports are now not served accordingly. It seems, they know, what they are doing, and not to start with a megalomaniac approach.
Let us say, I expect they will have a better chance to stay and to get successful than other new starting airlines/wet dreams of some stupid billionaires e.g..
 
Vicenza
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:40 pm

fcogafa wrote:
The reality of Nigerian airlines actually taking delivery of new build aircraft orders isn't good at all so I wouldn't hold your breath....


Based on what if I may ask?
 
estorilm
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:46 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:

Although perhaps the most interesting 7 A350F's isn't the best endorsement a new project could receive, although I suspect it does confirm that Airbus are actually going to make it :)

55 A321's and another 20 XLR's - I'm losing track, what's the backlog for the XLR now? At this rate I could see it possibly having more orders before EIS than the 757 got in its entire life-time.

XLR? Probably over a thousand by now

Total order was 450 by Dec 2020, this year Airbus has not logged any formal/specific order for A321XLR. This is their first for the year. With Indigo Partner's 29 A321XLR and Air Lease's 20 order, the tally will now be around 500. Of course, this is not definite. I am sure Delta's order for 55, United's 71, Jet2's 51, LATAM's 21 (the other A321neo major orders this year) would allow some clauses for them to switch between A321neo, LR and XLR versions. From Jan 2021 to Oct 2021, Airbus has secured order for 216 A321 orders, but also lost 42 A321 orders this year, including Czech Airlines's 3 A321XLR.


The whole XLR thing just blows my mind, it seems like just yesterday that EVERYONE was calling this a "niche" aircraft. The numbers sold at this one airshow are what many thought the entire model might sell TOTAL. "Who want's to fly on a narrow-body for that long?" "It'll take too long to get people out of one door, never gonna sell" "won't have enough baggage space" "airlines won't want to pay the extra weight fees for a narrow body like this" "P2P market resurgence hasn't happened enough for a plane line this" and "everyone will wait for the MoM before committing to an older base design / compromise"

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

The only thing more impressive than the overall A321NEO orders to me is the XLR orders.

That reminds me, what happened to the LR? I thought that would be overall more economical option for many airlines - fees and price are less, it's pretty flexible for multiple routes with the removable ACT's etc etc. I think many thought it would be like a 75/25 split between LR and XLR.

Airbus really seem to have had a crystal ball when they went all-in on the XLR immediately on the heels of the LR (and many of us were scratching our heads a bit). Personally I think they just knew the P2P market would explode, and that Boeing was in absolutely no position to be delivering a new narrow-body in the next decade.
 
TaromA380
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:13 pm

Airbus A320
1988 (Toulouse) - 2021 (Dubai Air Show)
RIP

We cherish the memories we have with this airliner and know it is smiling down on all of us.
 
djpearman
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:20 pm

estorilm wrote:
That reminds me, what happened to the LR? I thought that would be overall more economical option for many airlines - fees and price are less, it's pretty flexible for multiple routes with the removable ACT's etc etc. I think many thought it would be like a 75/25 split between LR and XLR.

Airbus really seem to have had a crystal ball when they went all-in on the XLR immediately on the heels of the LR (and many of us were scratching our heads a bit). Personally I think they just knew the P2P market would explode, and that Boeing was in absolutely no position to be delivering a new narrow-body in the next decade.

Isn't the benefit of the XLR the lower RCT weight versus the ACTs on the LR? That would mean a lower empty weight. Sure, it may lack the ability to be removed, but how often is belly cargo the limiting factor on an A321? And as for fees dependent on MTOW, wouldn't that be adjustable using the multitude of A321 weight variants?
Last edited by djpearman on Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
StTim
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:21 pm

TaromA380 wrote:
Airbus A320
1988 (Toulouse) - 2021 (Dubai Air Show)
RIP

We cherish the memories we have with this airliner and know it is smiling down on all of us.


As Mark Twain wrote "The report of my death was an exaggeration." So too could the A320.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:57 pm

T4thH wrote:
Ups...we all have all missed something.

Yes Ibom Air has ordered 10x A220, but not 10x A220-300. All news only say: 10x A220...and we have estimated 10x A220-300, but this seems to be wrong.
According "aerotelegraph"" from Germany, these were 3x A220-300 and 7x A220-100. See attached the "aerotelegraph" Dubai Airshow listing, just click through the images.
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/die-bestellungen-der-dubai-airshow-2021

So also the last meme here in Anet by some, the A220-100 is dead as a Dodo...is for the bin.


yay I love the 100, thanks for the clarification.

Heres where we stand:

7x A220-100
28x A220-300
281x A321 Neo
49x A321 Xlr
4x A330 neo
2x A330MRTT
7x A350F

order conversion of 38x A320 Neo's to A321 Neo's

I'm not counting MOU's but I am counting LOI's, and to answer a question earlier yes the 7 LOI's for the A350F's are launch orders.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:58 pm

estorilm wrote:
The whole XLR thing just blows my mind, it seems like just yesterday that EVERYONE was calling this a "niche" aircraft.


It was because they were focused on the edge case roles of the XLR and not the primary roles. Pretty much every A321-200 (ceo or neo) comes with at least one additional fuel tank to provide sufficient range. The XLR's Rear Center Tank offers more fuel volume than the Auxiliary Cargo Tanks the non-XLR models use without the loss of rear cargo hold space. Combined with the higher available operating weights, it offers maximum flexibility to operators.


estorilm wrote:
That reminds me, what happened to the LR? I thought that would be overall more economical option for many airlines - fees and price are less, it's pretty flexible for multiple routes with the removable ACT's etc etc.


The RCT is a more effective use of space than the ACTs on the XLR - especially when you use the maximum of three ACTs the XLR can handle. And while ACTs are removeable, it's not a quick change so most operators would generally not go through the effort. So unless you're flying with all three ACTs full, you're just losing belly cargo space and payload.

I expect it was this lack of flexibility that pushed Airbus to develop the RCT as it is a much more elegant and flexible system than the LR's ACTs.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:19 pm

Stitch wrote:
Pretty much every A321-200 (ceo or neo) comes with at least one additional fuel tank to provide sufficient range.


This claim again. I seem to recall correcting you in the past in this regard. I suppose if you repeat it enough times, it'll be taken as a fact.

Most 321ceo/neo delivered upto this point are not optioned with an ACT. Until recently, North American airlines were pretty much the exception in selecting ACTs.

A lot of 321 operators including my current and previous employer are flying 321ceo/neo with a barebones 89t mtow option and to my knowledge none of the Chinese airlines are ACT equipped.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:28 am

Chaostheory wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Pretty much every A321-200 (ceo or neo) comes with at least one additional fuel tank to provide sufficient range.


This claim again. I seem to recall correcting you in the past in this regard. I suppose if you repeat it enough times, it'll be taken as a fact.

Most 321ceo/neo delivered upto this point are not optioned with an ACT. Until recently, North American airlines were pretty much the exception in selecting ACTs.

A lot of 321 operators including my current and previous employer are flying 321ceo/neo with a barebones 89t mtow option and to my knowledge none of the Chinese airlines are ACT equipped.


Fair enough. It's what I have read a fair number of times on the site so it stuck in my head.

Does make it interesting why the XLR is so popular then, if the RCT is generally unused and just extra empty weight being carried around.
 
Duke91
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:59 am

Stitch wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Pretty much every A321-200 (ceo or neo) comes with at least one additional fuel tank to provide sufficient range.


This claim again. I seem to recall correcting you in the past in this regard. I suppose if you repeat it enough times, it'll be taken as a fact.

Most 321ceo/neo delivered upto this point are not optioned with an ACT. Until recently, North American airlines were pretty much the exception in selecting ACTs.

A lot of 321 operators including my current and previous employer are flying 321ceo/neo with a barebones 89t mtow option and to my knowledge none of the Chinese airlines are ACT equipped.


Fair enough. It's what I have read a fair number of times on the site so it stuck in my head.

Does make it interesting why the XLR is so popular then, if the RCT is generally unused and just extra empty weight being carried around.


No one accurately can predict the future and having some reserves in case that performance is needed is nice to have. Then the additional weight is a nonissue
 
tommy1808
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:53 am

Stitch wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Pretty much every A321-200 (ceo or neo) comes with at least one additional fuel tank to provide sufficient range.


This claim again. I seem to recall correcting you in the past in this regard. I suppose if you repeat it enough times, it'll be taken as a fact.

Most 321ceo/neo delivered upto this point are not optioned with an ACT. Until recently, North American airlines were pretty much the exception in selecting ACTs.

A lot of 321 operators including my current and previous employer are flying 321ceo/neo with a barebones 89t mtow option and to my knowledge none of the Chinese airlines are ACT equipped.


Fair enough. It's what I have read a fair number of times on the site so it stuck in my head.

Does make it interesting why the XLR is so popular then, if the RCT is generally unused and just extra empty weight being carried around.


It delivers that extra bit of range one ACT in a vanilla Neo or an LR couldn´t, taking it from a niche aircraft over the Atlantik to one that can be deployed on plenty of city pairs. Heck, it could do some TPAC flying between Japan an Canada/US. Just plot the ranges from its customers hubs.

best regards
Thomas
 
LTEN11
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:19 am

Duke91 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:

This claim again. I seem to recall correcting you in the past in this regard. I suppose if you repeat it enough times, it'll be taken as a fact.

Most 321ceo/neo delivered upto this point are not optioned with an ACT. Until recently, North American airlines were pretty much the exception in selecting ACTs.

A lot of 321 operators including my current and previous employer are flying 321ceo/neo with a barebones 89t mtow option and to my knowledge none of the Chinese airlines are ACT equipped.


Fair enough. It's what I have read a fair number of times on the site so it stuck in my head.

Does make it interesting why the XLR is so popular then, if the RCT is generally unused and just extra empty weight being carried around.


No one accurately can predict the future and having some reserves in case that performance is needed is nice to have. Then the additional weight is a nonissue


That nice to have extra capability, is also a liability when you're not using it. The maybe we'll need it in 5-10 years time, has meant paying extra for the aircraft, higher fuel consumption (admittedly probably not a huge amount more, but it adds up as the years go by) and loss of perspective cargo revenue. To have that extra capability and not use it to it's fullest is an expensive waste.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14718
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:22 am

LTEN11 wrote:
Duke91 wrote:
Stitch wrote:

Fair enough. It's what I have read a fair number of times on the site so it stuck in my head.

Does make it interesting why the XLR is so popular then, if the RCT is generally unused and just extra empty weight being carried around.


No one accurately can predict the future and having some reserves in case that performance is needed is nice to have. Then the additional weight is a nonissue


That nice to have extra capability, is also a liability when you're not using it. The maybe we'll need it in 5-10 years time, has meant paying extra for the aircraft, higher fuel consumption (admittedly probably not a huge amount more, but it adds up as the years go by) and loss of perspective cargo revenue. To have that extra capability and not use it to it's fullest is an expensive waste.


As an Airline you are probably not considering the XLR unless you already could make use of more than what a A321neo + 1ACT can provide on some city pairs, making all but the price premium a non-issue.

best regards
Thomas
 
LTEN11
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:53 am

tommy1808 wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Duke91 wrote:

No one accurately can predict the future and having some reserves in case that performance is needed is nice to have. Then the additional weight is a nonissue


That nice to have extra capability, is also a liability when you're not using it. The maybe we'll need it in 5-10 years time, has meant paying extra for the aircraft, higher fuel consumption (admittedly probably not a huge amount more, but it adds up as the years go by) and loss of perspective cargo revenue. To have that extra capability and not use it to it's fullest is an expensive waste.


As an Airline you are probably not considering the XLR unless you already could make use of more than what a A321neo + 1ACT can provide on some city pairs, making all but the price premium a non-issue.

best regards
Thomas


Yes mate, I'm well aware of that. I was responding to another poster who was implying that there are no real consequences in buying a more capable and expensive aircraft and then not taking advantage of that extra capability.
 
ABMUC
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:21 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:51 am

People forget that the flexibility is one of the main selling points. You can do a couple of short hops during the day and a long haul trip during night. The XLR is part of the 32x infrastructure. Airbus got it right as proven by the ever increasing sales figures.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 3208
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:11 am

If you look at the kind of flying the A321 does in Europe and Asia the majority of it is short sectors where the capacity is required, not the range. Even longer sectors like Scandinavia to the Canaries wouldn’t have much in the way of cargo aside from passenger bags. In North America the use is different and often the aircraft is used on much longer sectors. In this case the capacity [Band[/B] range are required, so our North American friends may be generalising the importance of carrying a big payload a long way.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:41 am

2x A400M to Indonesia. And additional a LOI for further 4x A400M.

The European plane-maker Airbus announced that the Indonesia Ministry of Defense has placed an order for two Airbus A400M aircraft in multirole tanker and transport configuration.

https://defence-blog.com/indonesia-orders-two-airbus-a400m-military-airlifters/
Indonesia Ministry of Defence orders two Airbus A400Ms

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2021-11-indonesia-ministry-of-defence-orders-two-airbus-a400ms
 
airbazar
Posts: 10610
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 pm

estorilm wrote:
The whole XLR thing just blows my mind, it seems like just yesterday that EVERYONE was calling this a "niche" aircraft. [...]
The only thing more impressive than the overall A321NEO orders to me is the XLR orders.

That reminds me, what happened to the LR?

Many people predicted that the LR would go away after the XLR's launch.

On its success, imagine how many more it would sell if it was actually optimized for what it is. Really makes you wonder how Boeing who once had 100% market share in this segment with the 757, completely blew it.

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