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vaughanparry
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BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:00 pm

The BBC has this today regarding Premier League football teams flying to their away fixtures within England:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59213173

It was probably only a matter of time before this issue was made more public and the COP26 conference in Glasgow, which concludes today, is doubtless a factor. It was only a month ago that Manchester United's short hop from MAN to EMA in October provoked its own furore: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58938198

From the article: "The biggest distance between Premier League clubs this season is the 348 miles from Newcastle to Brighton." This is obviously true but this next statement is irrelevant, not least because there are no direct trains between Newcastle and Brighton (London is in the way): "On a standard Friday (the day before the teams usually play), 12 of 14 trains departing Newcastle before 16:00 GMT take five hours or less to get to Brighton."

Anyway, I wonder which, if any, of the PL team's will blink first and bow to public pressure (assuming this public pressure even exists). The article mentions other European countries' attempts to reduce their flying and it will be interesting to see how this develops. Watch this (air)space...
 
TC957
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:43 pm

Think Newcastle to Southampton is a bit further. Southampton fly to most of their away games up north. I really don't see what business it is of anyone how teams get to away fixtures. With trains and road travel, there is always the risk of disruption along the route.
 
hpff
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:11 pm

I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)
 
skipness1E
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:21 pm

England does not have excellent coach and rail links for well paid athletes who need to be on time and rested before a game.
The sum total of all of these flights isn't even a rounding error. I know this, I live there. This is just standard media virtue signalling. For example, they ensured Boris used a train to come back from COP26 in the same week it looks like Russia are going to invade Ukraine, I'd really prefer our leaders to be making the best use of their time. This is cult nonsense.
 
skipness1E
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:22 pm

hpff wrote:
I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)

A massive climate impact? How so. Quantify "massive"? I think that's hysterical cult nonsense.
 
hpff
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:53 pm

skipness1E wrote:
hpff wrote:
I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)

A massive climate impact? How so. Quantify "massive"? I think that's hysterical cult nonsense.


It's relative. Using the BBC's chart domestic flights emit almost 10 times as much carbon as taking a coach. If you're trying to hit climate targets, these flights in the aggregate are very low hanging fruit.
 
AAIL86
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:15 pm

hpff wrote:
I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)


I mean, everything we do on an individual and collective scale impacts our environment. Many flew to COP26 on private jets, which to me the easiest option to reduce one's travel emissions is use a commercial carrier rather then go private. Business class is not that much worse then private....lol!
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:34 pm

Many of the flights are unnecessary - but time is money. In this respect, football clubs are no different to other businesses.

hpff wrote:
I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)


That is because Plymouth currently has no airport. Prior to this, Plymouth Argyle often flew to their more distant away games, either with Air Southwest or other turboprop operators, precisely because the road and rail links are so poor in the far South West.

I'd further question whether the UK's road and rail links are excellent - if you are travelling between key major population centres perhaps, but if you need to travel from region to region you will often find them average at best.
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:10 am

Usual picking on football clubs nonsense. I would rather the players reach their games in the best shape so they play at peak performance, and taking flights sometimes is part of that, as the article actually acknowledges. Clubs are not stupid, today's sports science goes to the extreme, calculating fatigue from travel, sleep time, preparation for the next game etc. Statements such as "On a standard Friday (the day before the teams usually play), 12 of 14 trains departing Newcastle before 16:00 GMT take five hours or less to get to Brighton." highlights how the people writing these articles have little clue. Clubs for preparation reasons often don't travel down the day before, preferring the day itself, and will fly back as soon as possible after so they can rest and prepare for the next game. They plan their schedules to be as efficient as possible to keep their athletes in top condition.

I know lots of fans who fly domestically to away games. Are these bad people? No, and I thought Air Passenger Duty was there to pay for the environmental impact of flying? Are they really saying it has nothing to do with pollution and it is just another tax grab??? :o :lol: Further, if clubs just paid to offset their carbon emissions from the travel then what's the problem? Probably doing more to offset their carbon impact than the writers of the silly article.
 
Opus99
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:45 am

As a chelsea fan, I know that the team travel via charter flight to away games in Newcastle.
 
ltbewr
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:30 pm

Even with the top tier US Sports teams and as little as 90 miles of travel (like NYC - Philadelphia), they will fly, buses (coaches) are very rarely used and trains are never used.I suspect that but for the shortest trips in mainland Europe, top tier Football teams use planes.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:04 pm

Did the BBC do a story about all the rich elites taking individual private jets to the climate summit? The whole environmental push is to reduce regular folks travel but not the rich and powerful.
 
jomur
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:04 pm

No top flight football team is ever going to go by train. If they don't fly then it will be by coach. Also do people know exactly how much equipment so goes with the teams which also has to get to the match. It's not as simple as just the players going. I've checked in several top flight football teams and it is a fair bit of extra kit.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:09 pm

AAIL86 wrote:
hpff wrote:
I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)


I mean, everything we do on an individual and collective scale impacts our environment. Many flew to COP26 on private jets, which to me the easiest option to reduce one's travel emissions is use a commercial carrier rather then go private. Business class is not that much worse then private....lol!


I take it you haven’t experienced both to compare.
 
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Lighthouse
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:36 pm

I think it’s ridiculous, some of the flight taken by Premier League clubs. Arsenal to Norwich, a sub two hour drive, is one of those mentioned.

20 minutes from their training ground to Luton
20 minutes before the flight is probably the minimum you’d want to arrive, to get onto the airfield, board everyone and close up.
10 minutes to push, start and taxi
15 minute flight.
5 minutes to taxi in
10 minutes to de-plane and board another coach
20 minutes coach to Carrow Road

I make that 1 hour 40 minutes total journey time. All that hassle to save 20 minutes of journey time, how is it beneficial to the team? Offer me that or two hours in a reclining leather chair with my iPad on a luxury coach and I know which I’d prefer.

SOU-NCL (or LGW for Brighton and Crystal Palace) I get, even if it’s far from eco-friendly. MAN-EMA and LTN-NWI though, that’s just absurd.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:25 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Did the BBC do a story about all the rich elites taking individual private jets to the climate summit? The whole environmental push is to reduce regular folks travel but not the rich and powerful.


Yes they did, in particular the amount of business and presidential jets shuttling between Glasgow (GLA) and Prestwick (PIK) a distance of 32 miles, for pick up/drop off/parking. Air Force One's arrival at 50 miles away Edinburgh (EDI) drew particular criticism for not only flying to the wrong city, but then using a flown from the USA, 18 car motorcade to transfer to Glasgow and the Cop26 conference. The three VH-60 "Marine One" choppers that were delivered inside seperate C-17 aircraft and not used at all, also drew commentary. The gas bill for 'Team USA' to attend a climate conference must be an entertaining number, let alone all the other countries.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:09 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I suspect that but for the shortest trips in mainland Europe, top tier Football teams use planes.


No, they don't.

Of course they do for further distances, but if it's a bit doable they go by coach. Here in the Netherlands the furthest distance between two clubs in the Eredivisie (MVV - FC Groningen) is 335 kilometers, 3 hours and 40 minutes drive. Make that 4 hours. And they go by coach! Even though their home cities (Maastricht and Groningen) both have an airport, they don't fly. Of course neither MVV nor FC Groningen are top tier clubs but they do play in the same league as Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV. There are no scheduled domestic flights in the Netherlands by the way, all airports are 100% international.

Now the Netherlands is a small country, but let's look at our neighbors. I mean the Germans, they got a whole bunch of top clubs all over the country. Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, etc. And mostly they go by coach as well, which is no surprise given Germany's excellent highway network. You can cross the country within a day, I did so when I was driving to Switzerland. Left home in the Netherlands mid-morning, stopped for the night in the Black Forest (south of Stuttgart) in the evening. And I didn't exactly rush, after all I was on holiday. If I wanted I could have driven from the Netherlands to Switzerland within a day. Anyway, German teams only fly if they have to which generally is only for international matches which are too far to do by coach.

One thing I can tell you about those coaches top tier clubs use is that they're luxury, it's like flying business class only on a bus instead of a plane. Given that most short haul flights in Europe don't have any business class seats, it's better for the players to go by coach instead of plane. That might take a bit more time but they arrive more well-rested.
 
TC957
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:19 pm

[
20 minutes from their training ground to Luton
20 minutes before the flight is probably the minimum you’d want to arrive, to get onto the airfield, board everyone and close up.
10 minutes to push, start and taxi
15 minute flight.
5 minutes to taxi in
10 minutes to de-plane and board another coach
20 minutes coach to Carrow Road

I make that 1 hour 40 minutes total journey time. All that hassle to save 20 minutes of journey time, how is it beneficial to the team? Offer me that or two hours in a reclining leather chair with my iPad on a luxury coach and I know which I’d prefer.

SOU-NCL (or LGW for Brighton and Crystal Palace) I get, even if it’s far from eco-friendly. MAN-EMA and LTN-NWI though, that’s just absurd.[/quote]

The M11 motorway has speed-restricted roadworks sections causing delays and occasional weekend closures recently. Brighton also flew LGW - NWI for their game last month and the potential of M11 delays no doubt was the thinking of teams flying LTN - NWI.
 
southbay1
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:15 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Even with the top tier US Sports teams and as little as 90 miles of travel (like NYC - Philadelphia), they will fly, buses (coaches) are very rarely used and trains are never used.I suspect that but for the shortest trips in mainland Europe, top tier Football teams use planes.


Not true. The NY (Yankees and Mets), Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington Major League Baseball teams take Amtrak Acela trains when traveling to each others cities.

I know that NBA teams in those cities do the same. I would assume NHL also but I don't have any knowledge of their travel arrangements.
 
AAIL86
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
hpff wrote:
I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)


I mean, everything we do on an individual and collective scale impacts our environment. Many flew to COP26 on private jets, which to me the easiest option to reduce one's travel emissions is use a commercial carrier rather then go private. Business class is not that much worse then private....lol!


I take it you haven’t experienced both to compare.



I have. How about you?
The upper deck of LH’s 747-8 is not that much worse, especially when you consider the climate impact of a J ticket is ~1/100 a solo private jet flight.

For us as humans to overcome the climate crisis it’s going to take innovation, compromise, and sacrifice.
The billion of us at the bottom without clean water can’t sacrifice anything. Going from private jet to J (or short haul charter jet to motor coach, in the case of this thread) should be the easiest decision in the world for those truly concerned.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:26 am

skipness1E wrote:
I think that's hysterical cult nonsense.

I think you a right.

I have a much better idea. Instead of restricting the players' travel mode we might just prohibit spectators.

With no spectators a lot of petrol and diesel fuel will be saved from private cars, trains and coaches.

Also when my national (Danish) team plays abroad - in Britain, Spain, Russia or whereever - then about half a dozen charter planes take off to bring our supporters to the match.
 
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fortytwoeyes
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:27 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Now the Netherlands is a small country, but let's look at our neighbors. I mean the Germans, they got a whole bunch of top clubs all over the country. Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, etc. And mostly they go by coach as well, which is no surprise given Germany's excellent highway network.

Anyway, German teams only fly if they have to which generally is only for international matches which are too far to do by coach.


Nearly all of that is wrong. For example, for the last Bundesliga matchday, 5 of the 9 games are confirmed to have had the away team fly in. Out of the remaining 4, some probably did too, but the information isn't always public. Judging by the distances involved, Möchengladbach may have gone to Mainz by coach, and that's probably it.
 
GLANKG
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:48 am

1) England is roughly about 23% the size of France and it's not like there are many PL or even EPL teams in Cornwall or north of Manchester & Leeds.

2) There is a massive difference between Newcastle or south coast teams traveling to away games vs Man U MAN to EMA or Arsenal LTN to NWI.

3) The vast majority of away fixtures could be reached by train within 3 hours. For example there are almost 90 daily train services between central London (7 clubs) and Manchester (2 clubs) and the journey is about 2.5 hours (with the fastest 2h11).
 
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JannEejit
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:01 am

prebennorholm wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
I think that's hysterical cult nonsense.

I think you a right.

I have a much better idea. Instead of restricting the players' travel mode we might just prohibit spectators.

With no spectators a lot of petrol and diesel fuel will be saved from private cars, trains and coaches.

Also when my national (Danish) team plays abroad - in Britain, Spain, Russia or whereever - then about half a dozen charter planes take off to bring our supporters to the match.


But of course if we all take the 'cult nonsense' attitude and assume it's a case of "Well they're doing it so we can to...",
then what do we achieve ? Virtue signalling it might be but it does help to instill the notion in people's heads that every little helps. At the end of the day, assuming a "it's cult nonsense" attitude is really just part of the overall problem. Football players and other idols of public admiration and influence, really should be leading by example.

Oh and yes, I presume a convoy of Sunclass fleet will be making its way across the North Sea to my local (GLA) today and tomorrow, with both players and fans aboard ? There was certainly no shortage last time.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:05 am

prebennorholm wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
I think that's hysterical cult nonsense.

I think you a right.

I have a much better idea. Instead of restricting the players' travel mode we might just prohibit spectators.

With no spectators a lot of petrol and diesel fuel will be saved from private cars, trains and coaches.

Also when my national (Danish) team plays abroad - in Britain, Spain, Russia or whereever - then about half a dozen charter planes take off to bring our supporters to the match.


But of course if we all take the 'cult nonsense' attitude and assume it's a case of "Well they're doing it so we can to...",
then what do we achieve ? Virtue signalling it might be but it does help to instill the notion in people's heads that every little helps. At the end of the day, assuming a "it's cult nonsense" attitude is really just part of the overall problem. Football players and other idols of public admiration and influence, really should be leading by example.

Oh and yes, I presume a convoy of Sunclass fleet will be making its way across the North Sea to my local (GLA) today and tomorrow, with both players and fans aboard ? There was certainly no shortage last time. ;)
 
StTim
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:16 am

Opus99 wrote:
As a chelsea fan, I know that the team travel via charter flight to away games in Newcastle.


This one is crazy. There is an excellent direct train service between London and Newcastle. Should be a train every time.

London teams to Norwich should be train as again there are direct services.

Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle to Norwich or Southampton then flying does make a lot of sense.
 
TC957
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:52 am

I wouldn't be surprised if cost is less chartering something like one of the Jota RJ's than rail. I don't know how many people from the club would travel to away games, but with all the players and associated managers, coaches, medical staff, partners and directors probably 40 to 50 all in. Given the high cost of rail travel in the UK, and no doubt they'll need first class, then it's not hard to see why they fly.
 
rutankrd
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:56 am

These flight are rather more common due to EPL COVID19 risk reducing measures on match days . No contact with the public allowed . Coach airport coach delivers that isolation most effectively
 
rutankrd
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:04 am

Rail is irrelevant especially cross country since the UK network is So London centric Travel East/West within England and it’s just three primary routes Either Carlisle/Newcastle , Manchester/Leeds or via Birmingham.

The East/West roads connections almost as poor .

Someone who doesn’t gives a crap about 22 men kicking bladder though tries to understand the climate change necessities sees the reasons as currently and temporarily acceptable.
Last edited by rutankrd on Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:08 am

southbay1 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Even with the top tier US Sports teams and as little as 90 miles of travel (like NYC - Philadelphia), they will fly, buses (coaches) are very rarely used and trains are never used.I suspect that but for the shortest trips in mainland Europe, top tier Football teams use planes.


Not true. The NY (Yankees and Mets), Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington Major League Baseball teams take Amtrak Acela trains when traveling to each others cities.

I know that NBA teams in those cities do the same. I would assume NHL also but I don't have any knowledge of their travel arrangements.


A few years ago,I checked the MLB Collective Bargaining Agreement,and IIRC any journey longer than 200 miles has to be flown. I would imagine it is cheaper to charter a bus or two than a plane, where possible.
 
WAC
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:40 am

AC Milan travel most of their domestic matches by train as Frecciarossa (state high speed train unit) is one the club sponsors. Trips taken by train is heavily promoted via social media posts.
 
vaughanparry
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:01 pm

On a (more or less) related note, the BBC has this today about Tahitian team AS Venus' 20,000 mile round trip to play a match against Trélissac in southwest France:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59277738. There's more here: https://www.oceaniafootball.com/as-venu ... nce-clash/
Spoiler alert: they lost 0-2.
Switching back to aviation, I've tried to find the team's route, operator, aircraft type, etc. but with little luck. We know from the second link that they flew to TLS (presumably from PPT?) but there's no further info (hardly surprising given that it's a football site!). I also wonder if this trip was some kind of record for a single sporting fixture? Over to you guys...
 
tallis
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:22 pm

There’s a lot of badly informed posts on this topic.

One of the key reasons PL teams chose to fly short distances is insurance. It’s a lot cheaper (and lower risk) to insure a team of very expensive players on a flown journey than on a coach or train, even bearing in mind the coach transfers at both ends. It also allows the players to avoid the public altogether which is really important for ensuring they arrive at matches on top form.

As for the environmental impact… using the BBC calculator is a total red herring. Do you really think their tool accounts for the fact that luxury coaches have far fewer seats on than the national Express ones from which the data is extracted? Or the fact that a Luton to Norwich flight won’t get anywhere near high enough to emit the upper atmosphere pollution that they’re so keen to emphasise?
 
ikramerica
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:31 pm

Montgomery Brewster would beg to differ!
 
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JannEejit
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:33 pm

tallis wrote:
There’s a lot of badly informed posts on this topic.

One of the key reasons PL teams chose to fly short distances is insurance. It’s a lot cheaper (and lower risk) to insure a team of very expensive players on a flown journey than on a coach or train, even bearing in mind the coach transfers at both ends. It also allows the players to avoid the public altogether which is really important for ensuring they arrive at matches on top form.

As for the environmental impact… using the BBC calculator is a total red herring. Do you really think their tool accounts for the fact that luxury coaches have far fewer seats on than the national Express ones from which the data is extracted? Or the fact that a Luton to Norwich flight won’t get anywhere near high enough to emit the upper atmosphere pollution that they’re so keen to emphasise?


Does an aircraft need to operate at upper most altitudes to pollute the upper atmosphere ? Surely greenhouse gases travel up the way from wherever they are emitted ? Coal fired power stations are firmly ground based but their emissions are the big talking point, especially around Cop26.
 
32andBelow
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:12 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Even with the top tier US Sports teams and as little as 90 miles of travel (like NYC - Philadelphia), they will fly, buses (coaches) are very rarely used and trains are never used.I suspect that but for the shortest trips in mainland Europe, top tier Football teams use planes.

That’s not true. Baseball teams don’t usually fly between NYC and PHL
 
tallis
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:45 am

JannEejit wrote:
Does an aircraft need to operate at upper most altitudes to pollute the upper atmosphere ? Surely greenhouse gases travel up the way from wherever they are emitted ? Coal fired power stations are firmly ground based but their emissions are the big talking point, especially around Cop26.


One of the major talking points at the moment is the impact of contrails, which are included as an impact in most modelling / comparison scenarios. However, clearly a very short football flight isn’t be going high enough to produce them - a paring of Luton and Norwich for example would be flown at an absolute maximum of FL240.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:49 pm

The underlying problem is that everyone supports fighting climate change, but few people are willing to give up something they really care about; they feel others should make sacrifices so they don't have to.

A good example of this is dog ownership. Researchers at organizations as diverse as New Scientist Magazine and the University of California at Los Angeles have quantified how dreadful dog ownership is for the environment. The problem is so serious that some progressive environmental groups in Europe have encouraged people to euthanize healthy dogs to lower their household's carbon emissions. However, most people think of dogs as a part of their family, and even though the scientific evidence is compelling, they are unwilling to live without dogs to help fight climate change.
 
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:40 pm

OMG pets!! No one is addressing the real problem. Way too many people. No way anyone will stop this climate change and mass extinction without some kind of curb on population. I see far too many families with 3, 4, or 5 kids. All this stuff on the news. Just window dressing. Stopping a few flights is not going to make a difference.
You are right, people will not give up anything. They are too selfish to even wear a mask to protect others. No way people will give up enough to help others. And politicians and the news just go after the easy stuff. Glad I'm 65
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:37 pm

vaughanparry wrote:
The BBC has this today regarding Premier League football teams flying to their away fixtures within England:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59213173

It was probably only a matter of time before this issue was made more public and the COP26 conference in Glasgow, which concludes today, is doubtless a factor. It was only a month ago that Manchester United's short hop from MAN to EMA in October provoked its own furore: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58938198

From the article: "The biggest distance between Premier League clubs this season is the 348 miles from Newcastle to Brighton." This is obviously true but this next statement is irrelevant, not least because there are no direct trains between Newcastle and Brighton (London is in the way): "On a standard Friday (the day before the teams usually play), 12 of 14 trains departing Newcastle before 16:00 GMT take five hours or less to get to Brighton."

Anyway, I wonder which, if any, of the PL team's will blink first and bow to public pressure (assuming this public pressure even exists). The article mentions other European countries' attempts to reduce their flying and it will be interesting to see how this develops. Watch this (air)space...


It's about 3 hours from Newcastle to London Kings Cross and then about 1 hour and a half from there to Brighton, giving a total of 4h30m. I wouldn't want to do it by coach as you'd get stuck in traffic going around London, probably giving a total time of about 7 hours. By plane you could fly to Gatwick in about 30m and then you´d have a short coach transfer.

The longest trips in England would have to be those between the southwest and the northeast, taking up to 10 hours by bus and involving connections if going by train.

I suppose another advantage of a charter plane is that it goes when you want to go, rather than trains which can be delayed, missed or cancelled. Plus I guess the club is paying for the time of the players and managers etc, which is pretty expensive. It could actually save money by flying them.
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:44 pm

TC957 wrote:
[
20 minutes from their training ground to Luton
20 minutes before the flight is probably the minimum you’d want to arrive, to get onto the airfield, board everyone and close up.
10 minutes to push, start and taxi
15 minute flight.
5 minutes to taxi in
10 minutes to de-plane and board another coach
20 minutes coach to Carrow Road

I make that 1 hour 40 minutes total journey time. All that hassle to save 20 minutes of journey time, how is it beneficial to the team? Offer me that or two hours in a reclining leather chair with my iPad on a luxury coach and I know which I’d prefer.

SOU-NCL (or LGW for Brighton and Crystal Palace) I get, even if it’s far from eco-friendly. MAN-EMA and LTN-NWI though, that’s just absurd.


The M11 motorway has speed-restricted roadworks sections causing delays and occasional weekend closures recently. Brighton also flew LGW - NWI for their game last month and the potential of M11 delays no doubt was the thinking of teams flying LTN - NWI.[/quote]

Agree with all of the above except, the direct route from the Arsenal training ground to Norwich is A1. A505 A11, no need to go near the M11

As to the argument that flying is more covid secure than travelling by coach, that's BS a coach all the way involves far less exposure to 3rd parties.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:07 am

JannEejit wrote:
Oh and yes, I presume a convoy of Sunclass fleet will be making its way across the North Sea to my local (GLA) today and tomorrow, with both players and fans aboard ? There was certainly no shortage last time. ;)

3000 Danish fans yesterday made that convoy to Glasgow spending a few hours watching their team lose 0 - 2 before returning home. Historically those 3000 is a pretty low number, which was blamed on the COVID situation.

I have no idea what metal they were on. Could have been five or six A380, but I guess not.

What a salute to the COP26 meeting ending the previous day in the same city. Ha-ha! It was almost funny. :swirl:
 
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JannEejit
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:33 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Oh and yes, I presume a convoy of Sunclass fleet will be making its way across the North Sea to my local (GLA) today and tomorrow, with both players and fans aboard ? There was certainly no shortage last time. ;)

3000 Danish fans yesterday made that convoy to Glasgow spending a few hours watching their team lose 0 - 2 before returning home. Historically those 3000 is a pretty low number, which was blamed on the COVID situation.

I have no idea what metal they were on. Could have been five or six A380, but I guess not.

What a salute to the COP26 meeting ending the previous day in the same city. Ha-ha! It was almost funny. :swirl:


I noted one Sunclass A321 with team and officials at GLA and fan charters, by Enter Air, Transavia and Air Seven, all 737's. Presumably some went to EDI via regular Danish connections too ?
 
7673mech
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:11 pm

So there is signage when you leave Farmingdale Airport on Long Island that says: Now for the most dangerous part of your trip.
Or something similar. Traveling by airplane is safer. Yes there have been cases where professional and college teams have been tragically lost, but still safer. US numbers:
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-co ... tion-mode/

And frankly, this is an aviation enthusiasts website, these discussion are tiring. Love airplanes, don’t care about carbon emissions. Until there is pushback globally against heavy industry and shipping and militaries for all the eco waste they produce, don’t want to hear it. Just my humble opinion of course.

Edit: watching Premier League now, wonder what cool planes these teams arrived in.
 
rutankrd
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:09 pm

7673mech wrote:
So there is signage when you leave Farmingdale Airport on Long Island that says: Now for the most dangerous part of your trip.
Or something similar. Traveling by airplane is safer. Yes there have been cases where professional and college teams have been tragically lost, but still safer. US numbers:
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-co ... tion-mode/

And frankly, this is an aviation enthusiasts website, these discussion are tiring. Love airplanes, don’t care about carbon emissions. Until there is pushback globally against heavy industry and shipping and militaries for all the eco waste they produce, don’t want to hear it. Just my humble opinion of course.

Edit: watching Premier League now, wonder what cool planes these teams arrived in.


Some of todays and yesterday EPL shuttles

Liverpool , and Watford both used Jota Avro G-JOTA today

Leicester Flew 2Excel 733 G-SWARD yesterday

Norwich used German Airways E190 D-ACJJ
 
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JannEejit
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:36 pm

7673mech wrote:

And frankly, this is an aviation enthusiasts website, these discussion are tiring. Love airplanes, don’t care about carbon emissions. Until there is pushback globally against heavy industry and shipping and militaries for all the eco waste they produce, don’t want to hear it. Just my humble opinion of course.

Edit: watching Premier League now, wonder what cool planes these teams arrived in.


Yeah we're all AV geeks on here, right ? So let's enjoy looking at the "cool planes" whilst we can. In ten years it's all going to look a whole lot different. Unless I'm mistaken, there is in fact a pushback against fossil fuel usage in general. Assuming aviation is to continue into the future, I'd suggest we keep up the conversations around these issues now and going forward.
 
vaughanparry
Topic Author
Posts: 88
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:41 am

rutankrd wrote:
7673mech wrote:
So there is signage when you leave Farmingdale Airport on Long Island that says: Now for the most dangerous part of your trip.
Or something similar. Traveling by airplane is safer. Yes there have been cases where professional and college teams have been tragically lost, but still safer. US numbers:
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-co ... tion-mode/

And frankly, this is an aviation enthusiasts website, these discussion are tiring. Love airplanes, don’t care about carbon emissions. Until there is pushback globally against heavy industry and shipping and militaries for all the eco waste they produce, don’t want to hear it. Just my humble opinion of course.

Edit: watching Premier League now, wonder what cool planes these teams arrived in.


Some of todays and yesterday EPL shuttles

Liverpool , and Watford both used Jota Avro G-JOTA today

Leicester Flew 2Excel 733 G-SWARD yesterday

Liverpool, Watford and Leicester all played at home yesterday (Saturday 20th Nov). I guess you mean that their respective opponents - Arsenal, Manchester United, and Chelsea - used Jota.

Norwich used German Airways E190 D-ACJJ
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:09 am

hpff wrote:
I mean, some of these flights are ridiculously short and have a massive climate impact, and there are five tiers in the English league - I guarantee you Plymouth coach or train to all their away games. There's really no need at all for the practice (for our American friends, England is roughly the size of Alabama with excellent train/coach links.)


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:18 am

We aviation fans and enthusiasts can and should no longer ignore the fact that flying is one of the most environmentally harmful and CO2-emitting means of transport. And we should learn to deal with this argumentatively. In this case, it is simply a no-go to fly a short distance in England. The teams here in Germany travel a lot by bus to the next game. Basically, nobody needs to fly within Germany. Our fast train system is great and e.g. from Hamburg to Frankfurt flying is not really faster than a train. Of course, including the travel time to the airport, waiting at security and in the waiting room are considerable time killers that don't exist with trains and buses!
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: BBC: Should England's top football teams be flying to domestic fixtures?

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:52 am

AirbusOnly wrote:
We aviation fans and enthusiasts can and should no longer ignore the fact that flying is one of the most environmentally harmful and CO2-emitting means of transport. And we should learn to deal with this argumentatively. In this case, it is simply a no-go to fly a short distance in England. The teams here in Germany travel a lot by bus to the next game. Basically, nobody needs to fly within Germany. Our fast train system is great and e.g. from Hamburg to Frankfurt flying is not really faster than a train. Of course, including the travel time to the airport, waiting at security and in the waiting room are considerable time killers that don't exist with trains and buses!


Except the players fly privately where the timing of departure/arrival at airports is maximised for efficiency for preparation. So it is a lot quicker than getting the train or bus. They are not sitting around the departure lounges at FRA waiting for a LH A320 flight out to BER. Germany does indeed have an excellent high-speed rail network. The UK does not. In any case, the entire entourage of a premiership football team going to a match is maybe 50 people, one chartered jet. Thousands of fans fly across the country, and into the country, to follow their team every other week. Are these bad people? No. Are they no doubt pushing more C02 out than the top flight squads of English football, and paying so through tax? Yes. Are carbon emmissions from aviation anywhere near industry across Europe? No. If the football club offsets its carbon emissions what is the problem? So articles like this are nothing then poor journalism trying to grab headlines. Instead of pointing the finger at easy to target football clubs, the debate should be about pushing R&D into sustainable fuel and zero emission aircraft so everyone can fly with no impact on the earth (discussion for another thread). In the meantime I want my team to continue to do whatever it feels necessary for peak performance on the pitch (if flying with carbon offsetting) and I will fly into games as necessary paying the carbon taxes there are in the UK.

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