Last scheduled passenger transatlantic crossing in a prop aircraft?

f4f3a · Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:41 pm

I was wondering when the last passenger service of a scheduled propliner service was across the Atlantic. I would assume during the early 1960s?

Clipper73 · Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:00 pm

Loftleiðir Icelandic from KEF to JFK maybe around 1970 with a Canadair CL-44

SRQKEF · Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:01 pm

Loftleiðir flew their Canadair CL44 "Monsters" TATL JFK-KEF (and onwards to LUX) until 1971:

They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

f4f3a · Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:52 pm

That's pretty cool I had no idea it was that late

zmatt1 · Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:57 pm

How about non turbo prop Trans Atlantic service?

PlymSpotter · Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:59 pm

It has been possible to travel between Europe and North America by turboprops a few times in the past years, when different services lined up.

Generally routings were UK - Iceland - Greenland - Canada, with carriers like FlyBe, Air Iceland and Air Greenland. The sticking point has generally been the sector from Greenland to Canada, which has operated occasionally by various Canadian carriers.as either a charter or scheduled charter.

masseybrown · Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:08 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
Loftleiðir flew their Canadair CL44 "Monsters" TATL JFK-KEF (and onwards to LUX) until 1971:

They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

What a handsome plane. I always loved the CL-44 (aka Britannia).

TW870 · Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:40 pm

Excellent thread and I cannot wait to see what we come up with.

I am curious about last piston transatlantic service. My Dad flew a Super Constellation from the U.S. to Europe right after he graduated from college in May of 1963. He clearly recalls the drone of the engines, the nighttime stopover in Gander, and the fire pouring out of the exhaust stacks on takeoff. He said it was a charter airline, but he does not remember which one. My strong hunch is that it was one of the passenger L1049Hs of Capitol Airways. There are lots of shots of these U.S. based aircraft in Europe in the mid-1960s. I cannot figure out how to insert a picture from the a.net database, but here is N1006C, a 1049H, on short final to THF in 1967. Might it have been flying transatlantic passenger charters still when this was taken?

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Capitol ... on/1243655

My guess is it was Capitol or some other charter airline that operated the last piston service, likely sometime in the mid-1960s.

PI4EVR · Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:12 pm

It could have also been Seaboard & Western (later Seaboard World), Trans International, Flying Tiger Line or Capitol International. They were flown as both tour operator civilian charters and military passenger services. I flew a Flying Tiger Connie in 1961 but it was a trans-Pacific military charter,

Phosphorus · Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:32 pm

These guys have a good synopsis here:
https://www.duxfordaviationsociety.org/ ... ater&id=88

Of course, Tu-114 should get a mention. It flew from USSR to Canada and Cuba well into late 1960's, but when did it stop -- you'd have to dig it up. In mid-70's, all Tu-114 were pulled from commercial service, as a flying lab (daily flights, simulating actual commercial service) discovered fatigue cracking, This we know for sure. Whether any Tu-114 still flew regular transatlantic at that point, or they were relegated to domestic duties only -- I don't know.

Revelation · Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:52 pm

TW870 wrote:
Excellent thread and I cannot wait to see what we come up with.

I am curious about last piston transatlantic service. My Dad flew a Super Constellation from the U.S. to Europe right after he graduated from college in May of 1963. He clearly recalls the drone of the engines, the nighttime stopover in Gander, and the fire pouring out of the exhaust stacks on takeoff. He said it was a charter airline, but he does not remember which one. My strong hunch is that it was one of the passenger L1049Hs of Capitol Airways. There are lots of shots of these U.S. based aircraft in Europe in the mid-1960s. I cannot figure out how to insert a picture from the a.net database, but here is N1006C, a 1049H, on short final to THF in 1967. Might it have been flying transatlantic passenger charters still when this was taken?

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Capitol ... on/1243655

My guess is it was Capitol or some other charter airline that operated the last piston service, likely sometime in the mid-1960s.

Cool picture!

The digits at the end of the link ( 1243655 ) are the 'photoid', the code to post the picture looks like:

[photoid]1243655[/photoid]

MIflyer12 · Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:07 pm

Clipper73 wrote:
Loftleiðir Icelandic from KEF to JFK maybe around 1970 with a Canadair CL-44

That's a very interesting find. I had thought 707s and DC-8s had killed off TATL props pretty quickly but Iceland was not a high-income country in the 1960s.

f4f3a · Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:35 pm

Some great photos what handsome things these propliners were . Totally forgot about the tu 114

Cubsrule · Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:57 pm

It was scheduled for today: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/GRL ... /BGGH/BIKF

Clipper73 · Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Clipper73 wrote:
Loftleiðir Icelandic from KEF to JFK maybe around 1970 with a Canadair CL-44

That's a very interesting find. I had thought 707s and DC-8s had killed off TATL props pretty quickly but Iceland was not a high-income country in the 1960s.

Our family almost flew this in 1970 because of the attractive pricing until my father found out it was on a prop and that nixed the deal.

DETA737 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:31 am

Below is an article about the final year of turboprop flights over the Atlantic.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/arch ... c-the.html

crownvic · Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:13 am

DETA737 wrote:
Below is an article about the final year of turboprop flights over the Atlantic.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/arch ... c-the.html

That was an entertaining article to read. Thanks for sharing.

I think the topic starter may have been caught off guard with the CL-44 and with the term "Propliner", many only think pistons. So, with that in mind, I am going to guess that TWA was the last transatlantic operator with a lower fare "option" aboard the Constellation as opposed to flying on the 707. Just a guess.

FlyingElvii · Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:19 am

masseybrown wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Loftleiðir flew their Canadair CL44 "Monsters" TATL JFK-KEF (and onwards to LUX) until 1971:

They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

What a handsome plane. I always loved the CL-44 (aka Britannia).

They called “The Hippy Plane”

CrewBunk · Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:21 am

SRQKEF wrote:
They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

Other carriers, like Flying Tiger and Seaboard World also flew passengers in their CL-44s. Being a charter or military type operation, it would be hard to pinpoint a last flight.

The Royal Canadian Air Force also used the CL-44 for military transport. 166 (rear facing) seats.

N47 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:31 am

DETA737 wrote:
Below is an article about the final year of turboprop flights over the Atlantic.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/arch ... c-the.html

The WOW air of its time lol

lesfalls · Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:12 am

masseybrown wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Loftleiðir flew their Canadair CL44 "Monsters" TATL JFK-KEF (and onwards to LUX) until 1971:

They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

What a handsome plane. I always loved the CL-44 (aka Britannia).

Fascinating how they operated it for so long. Were there any economic advantages it had over other piston and jet aircraft of the time?

Always wondered if doing something similar to them would save the amount costs they did back then? Or do you think that you need to have the most efficient aircraft to save on cost in the 21st century?

lesfalls · Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:14 am

N47 wrote:
DETA737 wrote:
Below is an article about the final year of turboprop flights over the Atlantic.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/arch ... c-the.html

The WOW air of its time lol

Been on this site since 2014 and I have to say that is one of the best articles posted on this site in awhile.

Dominion301 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:26 am

TW870 wrote:
Excellent thread and I cannot wait to see what we come up with.

I am curious about last piston transatlantic service. My Dad flew a Super Constellation from the U.S. to Europe right after he graduated from college in May of 1963. He clearly recalls the drone of the engines, the nighttime stopover in Gander, and the fire pouring out of the exhaust stacks on takeoff. He said it was a charter airline, but he does not remember which one. My strong hunch is that it was one of the passenger L1049Hs of Capitol Airways. There are lots of shots of these U.S. based aircraft in Europe in the mid-1960s. I cannot figure out how to insert a picture from the a.net database, but here is N1006C, a 1049H, on short final to THF in 1967. Might it have been flying transatlantic passenger charters still when this was taken?

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Capitol ... on/1243655

My guess is it was Capitol or some other charter airline that operated the last piston service, likely sometime in the mid-1960s.

Wardair was flying transatlantic charters with DC-6Bs until 1966 - replaced by transatlantic 727-100 service! I'm sure someone did so later than them with pistons.

f4f3a · Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:33 am

Great article on Iceland air . Weirdly enough I am reading bill brysons book neither here nor there and he talks about the only cheap way to Europe was flying via kef to Luxembourg on Planes well past their prime

nickya340 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:33 am

I know this doesn’t really count as transatlantic but it’s still interesting. Air Greenland fly from Nuuk in Greenland to Reykjavik, Iceland in a dash 8-200. About 3 hours flight.

SRQKEF · Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:59 pm

nickya340 wrote:
I know this doesn’t really count as transatlantic but it’s still interesting. Air Greenland fly from Nuuk in Greenland to Reykjavik, Iceland in a dash 8-200. About 3 hours flight.

Icelandair (operated by Air Iceland Connect) also fly the same route on the same aircraft, along with Kulusuk, Ilulissat, Narsarsuaq and occasional flights to SFJ and Nerlerit Inaat.

TW870 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:04 pm

crownvic wrote:
DETA737 wrote:
Below is an article about the final year of turboprop flights over the Atlantic.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/arch ... c-the.html

That was an entertaining article to read. Thanks for sharing.

I think the topic starter may have been caught off guard with the CL-44 and with the term "Propliner", many only think pistons. So, with that in mind, I am going to guess that TWA was the last transatlantic operator with a lower fare "option" aboard the Constellation as opposed to flying on the 707. Just a guess.

TWA is a good guess because by the early-1960s, they were undercapitalized compared to their competitors, and had a harder time affording new aircraft. But in the case of jet aircraft, they were so much more efficient that even TWA moved very quickly to get the Constellations off the Atlantic. I believe - and someone please correct me if I am wrong - that the last piston transatlantic service for TWA was on the southern route that went IDL-BOS-Azores-Lisbon-Madrid, flight 900/901. I believe it was an L1649 passenger service until the middle of the 1962 high season. But it was gone by the end of that season. Here is a late-August 1962 schedule that shows all jet.

http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/com ... w62-05.jpg

TWA of course continued to haul cargo to Europe on converted L1649 freighters, but that ended in 1963 as well. So as others have shown, piston service continued for at least a few more high seasons on the non-scheduled airlines.

xjetflyer2001 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Clipper73 wrote:
Loftleiðir Icelandic from KEF to JFK maybe around 1970 with a Canadair CL-44

That's a very interesting find. I had thought 707s and DC-8s had killed off TATL props pretty quickly but Iceland was not a high-income country in the 1960s.

I have been wondering what the 1st scheduled commercial jet aircraft was for trans atlantic flights and what year that took place

MEA-707 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:32 pm

a BOAC Comet 4 on 4 october 1958 London-New York, followed by a Pan Am 707 New York to Paris on 26 october 1958. Indeed in about 4 years the long routes were mostly replaced by jets, which were quicker and also more efficient. I think holiday/charter airlines like Martinair and Spantax still occasionally flew orchestras, sports teams and such transatlantic til about 1969 on DC-6es and 7s

xjetflyer2001 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:16 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
a BOAC Comet 4 on 4 october 1958 London-New York, followed by a Pan Am 707 New York to Paris on 26 october 1958. Indeed in about 4 years the long routes were mostly replaced by jets, which were quicker and also more efficient. I think holiday/charter airlines like Martinair and Spantax still occasionally flew orchestras, sports teams and such transatlantic til about 1969 on DC-6es and 7s

Thank You

F27500 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:09 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
Loftleiðir flew their Canadair CL44 "Monsters" TATL JFK-KEF (and onwards to LUX) until 1971:

They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

That has "Cargo plane converted to haul passengers" written all over it!

F27500 · Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:56 pm

N47 wrote:
DETA737 wrote:
Below is an article about the final year of turboprop flights over the Atlantic.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/arch ... c-the.html

The WOW air of its time lol

Actually the current day Icelandair is pretty low rent too. Here they are the national carrier of Iceland ... and on transatlantic flights, they actually charge for meals. Pretty tacky.

mga707 · Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:44 am

F27500 wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Loftleiðir flew their Canadair CL44 "Monsters" TATL JFK-KEF (and onwards to LUX) until 1971:

They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

That has "Cargo plane converted to haul passengers" written all over it!

More like passenger aircraft (Bristol Britannia) converted to cargo aircraft (Canadair CL-44) re-converted back to haul passengers, with the 'swing-tail' feature of the cargo version disabled.

VirginFlyer · Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:56 am

mga707 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Loftleiðir flew their Canadair CL44 "Monsters" TATL JFK-KEF (and onwards to LUX) until 1971:

They were the only non-cargo operator of the type.

That has "Cargo plane converted to haul passengers" written all over it!

More like passenger aircraft (Bristol Britannia) converted to cargo aircraft (Canadair CL-44) re-converted back to haul passengers, with the 'swing-tail' feature of the cargo version disabled.

And just to add to it all, a cockpit windshield borrowed from the Convair 880.

V/F

TheFlyingDisk · Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:29 am

F27500 wrote:
N47 wrote:
DETA737 wrote:
Below is an article about the final year of turboprop flights over the Atlantic.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/arch ... c-the.html

The WOW air of its time lol

Actually the current day Icelandair is pretty low rent too. Here they are the national carrier of Iceland ... and on transatlantic flights, they actually charge for meals. Pretty tacky.

Considering that Loftleidir ended up merged with another airline to form Icelandair, quite fitting really.

crownvic · Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:07 am

It's also worth noting that it is easy to call these CL-44s "relics" compared to their jet counterparts, but what many did not realize is, this specific sub-fleet of passenger CL-44Js were mostly early to mid 1960s builds and if you flew on one in the late 60s or early 70s, they were actually quite young.

f4f3a · Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:25 am

Taking the comfort and speed aspect of the cl 44 aside. We're they more economical to run vs say a dc8 or 707 ?

TC957 · Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:44 pm

Almost certainly, given the fuel-thirstyness of DC-8's and 707's of that era.

Pendennis · Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:09 pm

From my sightings, the last passenger piston-engined airliners from North America which I saw in the UK were all in the Summer of 1966: Super Constellations of Nordair (Canada) and American Flyers; DC-7Cs of Saturn, Transair (Canada) and Pacific Western. If I remember correctly, these airlines flew affinity group charters (Canada) or flew on behalf of Travel Clubs (USA). They were more or less scheduled services during the Summer months but could not be booked direct, only via the relevent organisation. At this time IATA fixed the fares for their members, which were virtually all of the legacy airlines. These scheduled charters were the way to get cheap fares before deregulation.

Loftleidir were non-IATA hence outside their fare regime; Luxembourg was also outside these regulations hence International Air Bahama (Nassau-Luxembourg for Miami-Europe) and Trek (South Africa-Europe).

Clipper73 · Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:19 pm

Pendennis wrote:
From my sightings, the last passenger piston-engined airliners from North America which I saw in the UK were all in the Summer of 1966: Super Constellations of Nordair (Canada) and American Flyers; DC-7Cs of Saturn, Transair (Canada) and Pacific Western. If I remember correctly, these airlines flew affinity group charters (Canada) or flew on behalf of Travel Clubs (USA). They were more or less scheduled services during the Summer months but could not be booked direct, only via the relevent organisation. At this time IATA fixed the fares for their members, which were virtually all of the legacy airlines. These scheduled charters were the way to get cheap fares before deregulation.

Loftleidir were non-IATA hence outside their fare regime; Luxembourg was also outside these regulations hence International Air Bahama (Nassau-Luxembourg for Miami-Europe) and Trek (South Africa-Europe).

Is this the same way Laker operated International Caribbean on the Luxembourg-Barbados route.

MohawkWeekend · Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:21 pm

Always wanted to try it Loftleidir but alas never did. I just remember that it was way cheaper that than any other carrier in the late 60's. Does anyone have an idea of what a Y ticket from JFK to say Paris was on Pan American vs a Y ticket from JFK to Luxembourg would have been?

Those cockpit windows weren't really from a CV-880, were they?

opticalilyushin · Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:26 am

[twoid][/twoid]

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Always wanted to try it Loftleidir but alas never did. I just remember that it was way cheaper that than any other carrier in the late 60's. Does anyone have an idea of what a Y ticket from JFK to say Paris was on Pan American vs a Y ticket from JFK to Luxembourg would have been?

Those cockpit windows weren't really from a CV-880, were they?

The cockpit windscreen was similar but not identical to that of Convair's. Interestingly though the 12 frames built for the RCAF (Yukons) retained the original Britannia windscreen design.

CrewBunk · Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:53 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Always wanted to try it Loftleidir but alas never did. I just remember that it was way cheaper that than any other carrier in the late 60's. Does anyone have an idea of what a Y ticket from JFK to say Paris was on Pan American vs a Y ticket from JFK to Luxembourg would have been?

During the summer of 1966, PA charged $484.50 for a round trip in Y. JFK-LHR took 6:40.

During the same summer, LL charged $439.70 for JFK-KEF-LHR-KEF-JFK. JFK-KEF took 7:00 in a CL-44, then KEF-LHR took 4:35 in a DC-6B.

(JFK-KEF-LUX-KEF-JFK was $389.50. KEF-LUX took 4:00 in a CL-44).

whisperjet727 · Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:49 am

I believe Cubana flew Britannias across the Atlantic during the 1980s

CrewBunk · Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:37 am

whisperjet727 wrote:
I believe Cubana flew Britannias across the Atlantic during the 1980s

The transition from the Britannia to the IL-62 on the Atlantic was made between 1970 and 1974, so that by 1974, all of Cubana’s Atlantic flights were on the IL-62.

baje427 · Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:52 am

Didn't FI use the Q400 on some KEF-UK routes ?

crownvic · Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:05 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Always wanted to try it Loftleidir but alas never did. I just remember that it was way cheaper that than any other carrier in the late 60's. Does anyone have an idea of what a Y ticket from JFK to say Paris was on Pan American vs a Y ticket from JFK to Luxembourg would have been?

Those cockpit windows weren't really from a CV-880, were they?

It was actually closer to a CV-990, but as was noted, not exactly. The builder of the CL-44 (Canadair), always had a long standing relation with Convair down in San Diego as they licensed built several of the Convair twins in Canada and several other types as well.

crownvic · Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:16 am

Since we are talking about these large Canadian "hybrids", we should not forget the RCAF CP-107 "Argus" which was essentially a shortened Britannia with the Bristol Proteus engines replaced by piston Wright 3350 Duplex Cyclone engines (found on the DC-7) and DC-7 style cockpit!

Dominion301 · Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:43 am

baje427 wrote:
Didn't FI use the Q400 on some KEF-UK routes ?

Yes. Aberdeen I believe.

Swiss03 · Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:10 am

if one wanted to take a visit to pedantry corner, technically speaking Air Greenland still operates a trans atl. service from KEF to both Nuuk and SFJ using Q200 as Iceland is considered part of Europe and Greenland part of N. America

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