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JerseyFlyer
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RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:32 pm

According to this RR is to re-engine 5 747Fs for Silk Way.

"Cargo carrier Silk Way West Airlines has entered an agreement with Boeing to re-engine its 747-400F fleet. The carrier has a fleet of five Boeing 747-400Fs, which are all set to be powered by Rolls-Royce RB211-524 engines.
Rolls-Royce and Silk Way West Airlines have been partnered since 2017. Three of Silk Way’s five 747-400Fs are currently equipped with Rolls-Royce engines, while its two remaining 747-400Fs (VP-BCR and VP-BCV) are fitted with Pratt & Whitney PW4056 engines."

https://simpleflying.com/silk-way-boein ... lls-royce/

My bet is that the engines are from scrapped BA frames. But is it realistic to swap RR for PW on a 747? Or is it a Simple Flying typo?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:28 pm

Well that’s interesting.
 
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PM
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:01 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
According to this RR is to re-engine 5 747Fs for Silk Way.

"Cargo carrier Silk Way West Airlines has entered an agreement with Boeing to re-engine its 747-400F fleet. The carrier has a fleet of five Boeing 747-400Fs, which are all set to be powered by Rolls-Royce RB211-524 engines.
Rolls-Royce and Silk Way West Airlines have been partnered since 2017. Three of Silk Way’s five 747-400Fs are currently equipped with Rolls-Royce engines, while its two remaining 747-400Fs (VP-BCR and VP-BCV) are fitted with Pratt & Whitney PW4056 engines."

https://simpleflying.com/silk-way-boein ... lls-royce/

My bet is that the engines are from scrapped BA frames. But is it realistic to swap RR for PW on a 747? Or is it a Simple Flying typo?

I'd love to think this was true but I have my doubts. Is it really worth the effort? What's wrong with the PW4000s?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:22 pm

This is what the RR press release says.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... pport.aspx

"Rolls-Royce plc has today signed an agreement with Silk Way West Airlines to provide replacement engines for five of its RB211-524 powered Boeing 747-400F aircraft that will support their operations until 2026."

Same wording in the Silk Way West press release:
https://silkwaywest.com/news/102/

So nothing about a swap.

I think that Simple Flying made this conclusion that they will swap based on the current fleet which is indeed 3x RR and 2x PW. But there could be another explanation of course.
 
B757capt
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:26 pm

Swapping engines are not as easy as the article makes it sound. The modification to the pylons alone would be extremely expensive. I agree with Momo1435, I think the writer has this all wrong. I have been noticing lately that the Simple Flying articles are written by folks with almost zero technical experience.
 
E90SLAM
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:39 pm

One paragraph caught my attention and bothers me.

"Silk Way also has five Boeing 747-8Fs in its fleet. These aircraft are equipped with GEnx-2B67 engines and are not included in the re-engine agreement."

Well duh, RR doesn't have any offering for 747-8Fs.
 
rbavfan
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:14 pm

PM wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
According to this RR is to re-engine 5 747Fs for Silk Way.

"Cargo carrier Silk Way West Airlines has entered an agreement with Boeing to re-engine its 747-400F fleet. The carrier has a fleet of five Boeing 747-400Fs, which are all set to be powered by Rolls-Royce RB211-524 engines.
Rolls-Royce and Silk Way West Airlines have been partnered since 2017. Three of Silk Way’s five 747-400Fs are currently equipped with Rolls-Royce engines, while its two remaining 747-400Fs (VP-BCR and VP-BCV) are fitted with Pratt & Whitney PW4056 engines."

https://simpleflying.com/silk-way-boein ... lls-royce/

My bet is that the engines are from scrapped BA frames. But is it realistic to swap RR for PW on a 747? Or is it a Simple Flying typo?

I'd love to think this was true but I have my doubts. Is it really worth the effort? What's wrong with the PW4000s?


Whats wrong ask United about older PW4000's.
 
TW870
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:22 pm

B757capt wrote:
Swapping engines are not as easy as the article makes it sound. The modification to the pylons alone would be extremely expensive. I agree with Momo1435, I think the writer has this all wrong. I have been noticing lately that the Simple Flying articles are written by folks with almost zero technical experience.


Something is very wrong with this article. I cannot think of any example of any U.S. made jet swapping engines within the same generation of technology - given the technical complexity you describe. The RB211 is a 3-shaft turbofan and the PW4000 is a 2-shaft, so just that alone requires a ton of work on pylons, electrical, hydraulic, etc. Plus, the PW4056 from what I read has better specific fuel consumption than the RB211-524H. Why would you do a giant job like this to begin operating an engine that is going to burn more fuel on most trips than the PW4056? Airlines just don't care that much about fleet commonality. I think the way to read this is that they are going to keep the RB211 powered birds for longer, and have Rolls Royce due power by the hour type support.
 
TW870
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:24 pm

rbavfan wrote:
PM wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
According to this RR is to re-engine 5 747Fs for Silk Way.

"Cargo carrier Silk Way West Airlines has entered an agreement with Boeing to re-engine its 747-400F fleet. The carrier has a fleet of five Boeing 747-400Fs, which are all set to be powered by Rolls-Royce RB211-524 engines.
Rolls-Royce and Silk Way West Airlines have been partnered since 2017. Three of Silk Way’s five 747-400Fs are currently equipped with Rolls-Royce engines, while its two remaining 747-400Fs (VP-BCR and VP-BCV) are fitted with Pratt & Whitney PW4056 engines."

https://simpleflying.com/silk-way-boein ... lls-royce/

My bet is that the engines are from scrapped BA frames. But is it realistic to swap RR for PW on a 747? Or is it a Simple Flying typo?

I'd love to think this was true but I have my doubts. Is it really worth the effort? What's wrong with the PW4000s?


Whats wrong ask United about older PW4000's.


The PW4077 with the uncontained failure problems on the 777-200 is a different motor. The core drives a much larger fan on the PW4077 than the PW4056 does on the 747-400. There is not a similar history of mechanical problems.
 
744SPX
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:38 pm

PM wrote:
What's wrong with the PW4000s?


The PW4056 nacelles are rather ugly/ghetto-looking compared to the CF6-80 and RB211 nacelles. :biggrin:
 
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PM
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:44 pm

From the RR release.

"Rolls-Royce plc has today signed an agreement with Silk Way West Airlines to provide replacement engines for five of its RB211-524 powered Boeing 747-400F."

Five. "Five of its RB211-524 powered 747-400F".

That doesn't seem to include the two PW powered aircraft. And they only have three RB211-524 powered 747-400F.

The only conclusion must be that Silk Way are going to acquire two more and RR will provide support for all five.

Their three RR 747-400s came from Cargolux. Cargolux still have several RR-powered 747s. Could two more be going to Silk Way?

Maybe ... leaving the fleet as the new A350Fs start arriving ... :duck:
 
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xms3200
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:50 pm

I personally don't even bother reading or believing anything out of "Simple Flying", there are much more credible sources out there.
 
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GlobalAirways
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:50 pm

TW870 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
PM wrote:
I'd love to think this was true but I have my doubts. Is it really worth the effort? What's wrong with the PW4000s?


Whats wrong ask United about older PW4000's.


The PW4077 with the uncontained failure problems on the 777-200 is a different motor. The core drives a much larger fan on the PW4077 than the PW4056 does on the 747-400. There is not a similar history of mechanical problems.


His name is "rbavfan." Don't waste your time trying...
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:31 pm

Was told in early March this year that the ex BA RB211-524‘s we’re heading to Silk Way.
Doesn’t Cargolux still fly 2 ex Cathay RR powered 744F’s…?
Maybe Silkway and Cargolux will swap the relative 747 frames
Now it looks like they have RR onboard to manage the project as well. .
Everyone’s a winner,
Silkway with a standardised 744F fleet
Cargolux too
RR providing support .
 
jbmitt
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:25 pm

Are there retired aircraft passenger or cargo that could provide donor pylons and/or associated parts?

I don't know about engine overhauls but could there be more available cores and support to justify the capital expense?
 
smartplane
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:52 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Was told in early March this year that the ex BA RB211-524‘s we’re heading to Silk Way.
Doesn’t Cargolux still fly 2 ex Cathay RR powered 744F’s…?
Maybe Silkway and Cargolux will swap the relative 747 frames
Now it looks like they have RR onboard to manage the project as well. .
Everyone’s a winner,
Silkway with a standardised 744F fleet
Cargolux too
RR providing support .

Seems more likely than converting from PW to RR in 2022, to use for 4 years.

Has RR packaged PW engine support? RR and PW seem increasingly 'close'.

Does Cargolux have any financial interest in Silkway?

Engine support a precursor to an A33 or A35 freighter order?
 
TW870
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:11 pm

jbmitt wrote:
Are there retired aircraft passenger or cargo that could provide donor pylons and/or associated parts?

I don't know about engine overhauls but could there be more available cores and support to justify the capital expense?


Sure, there are donor aircraft, but again, I don't see the case for a massive, first-ever re-engining program for a small number of aircraft near the end of their useful lives that would make the aircraft less efficient and not more efficient. Zero improvement in payload, performance, or range after a hugely expensive project.

My guess is that RR is going to provide support and spares. Potentially they could swap a few low-time motors off of younger BA retired frames than those on the older ex-Cargolux birds. But as others have said, the article is so poorly written that we would need another source to actually understand the transaction.
 
7673mech
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:56 pm

TW870 wrote:
jbmitt wrote:
Are there retired aircraft passenger or cargo that could provide donor pylons and/or associated parts?

I don't know about engine overhauls but could there be more available cores and support to justify the capital expense?


Sure, there are donor aircraft, but again, I don't see the case for a massive, first-ever re-engining program for a small number of aircraft near the end of their useful lives that would make the aircraft less efficient and not more efficient. Zero improvement in payload, performance, or range after a hugely expensive project.

My guess is that RR is going to provide support and spares. Potentially they could swap a few low-time motors off of younger BA retired frames than those on the older ex-Cargolux birds. But as others have said, the article is so poorly written that we would need another source to actually understand the transaction.



You realize it’s been done on classics?

Never say never. Maybe some of the engineering was part of the 777 deal? Stranger things have happened.

That said this new journalism takes press releases and tries to make a story without talking to anyone, getting facts.
 
PhilipBass
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:09 pm

B757capt wrote:
I have been noticing lately that the Simple Flying articles are written by folks with almost zero technical experience.

There are websites set up which track topics which are of interest to the public. If there is interest for a topic which will generate traffic the operators of these media companies will create a website and hope it gains traction. An equivalent type website to Simple Flying would be carscoops.com or motor1.com if you are interested in cars or InsideEVs if interested in EVs. They recycle news, have little understanding of their topic and just hope to get traffic. They will also redirect websites to their website to generate traffic too e.g. worldcarfans.com directs to motor1.com.
rideapart.com exists because there is an interest motorcycles, not because the operator of the website knows anything about motorcycles.
If there are press releases creating content then they'll spew it out on their website.
Motor1.com and carscoops are examples of websites with no journalists. Even though the manufacturers have press events and test drive events, the websites keep budget low an regurgitate press-releases. some are more tabloidy than others or just draw plain wrong conclusions from what has been stated in press releases.
Aviation websites are just like car sites to them and generate traffic to serve adverts.
 
Max Q
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:10 pm

Maybe they’re just acquiring spare engines for future use

Might be cheaper than an expensive overhaul, especially if they’re getting them at a fire sale price
 
na
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:36 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Was told in early March this year that the ex BA RB211-524‘s we’re heading to Silk Way.
Doesn’t Cargolux still fly 2 ex Cathay RR powered 744F’s…?
Maybe Silkway and Cargolux will swap the relative 747 frames
Now it looks like they have RR onboard to manage the project as well. .
Everyone’s a winner,
Silkway with a standardised 744F fleet
Cargolux too
RR providing support .


Wrong. Cargolux has a subfleet of RR-powered 744Fs which were bought new, not just the two 2nd hand frames coming from CX. Plus they have some second-hand 744Fs with GEs, but none with PWs!
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:11 pm

Apologies Norbert…. Was just trying to think outside the box.
No harm done eh.?
 
TW870
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:52 pm

7673mech wrote:

You realize it’s been done on classics?


No I don't realize. But I would love to learn. I know that they rotate engine types within the same generation of PW engines on the classics. JT9D-7Q powered birds at Northwest could swap -7R4G2 motors as long as they were symmetrically changed. So you could run -7Qs on the outer pods and -7R4G2s on the inner pods on an airplane that was, for example, -7Q powered from the factory. They never swapped between JT9D generations from what I know. No -7F or -7J birds ever got -7Qs, for example. But I have never heard of an engine manufacturer change. What ship number and engine type are you talking about?
 
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Spacepope
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:53 am

While I don't feel like wasting the brainpower on deciphering the article from SimpleMindsFlyer, I guess this could be seen as an excellent way to stop competing for used engines with the 767 converted freighters, of which the Pratt engines are becoming more popular in that fleet.

Since the RB211 isn't used on any freighter conversions and the passenger 767 fleet with RRs is down to about 4, it's a way to insulate those engine costs. Unfortunate though since the RB211 became a bit of an orphan engine with the parking of the pax 747s.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:26 am

It will be interesting to see what RR will do with the -524 now that BA is out of the game. Granted, Cargolux is an original operator of the engine and they should still keep supporting those airframes. The PW4000 and GE CF6 both have military applications that will keep them around for decades.
 
skipness1E
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:53 am

Atlas Air swapped JT9Ds for CF6s on N809MC. It's been done.
 
wjcandee
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:26 am

The press releases say that RR is going to provide basically PBTH engines for "5 of Silk Way West's RB211-524 powered 747-400s". That implies that the aircraft in question already have RB211s. The focus of the press releases is that RR is going to make sure that Silk Way is supplied with enough engines with enough remaining time on them to operate the frames through 2026, up to a certain number of total hours.

It stands to reason that if Silk Way was going to re-engine 2 of its aircraft, that significant project would be discussed in the release. Do we know whether we have just missed a step and they've already re-engined them, since it has been done by others before, at least with the 742? If Silk Way hasn't already re-engined them, it seems like the transaction isn't being well-described.

Nothing in the press release says "re-engine", and I don't think it's a fair inference that that work is part of the transaction.
 
Noshow
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:39 am

IMHO they will swap RR engines for RR engines. They just install younger ones. They will not move from PW to RR.
A new combination of airframe and engine would require some new certification. It's not that easy.
 
skipness1E
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:56 am

Noshow wrote:
IMHO they will swap RR engines for RR engines. They just install younger ones. They will not move from PW to RR.
A new combination of airframe and engine would require some new certification. It's not that easy.

It's not a new combination, it's a mod from one existing model to another though.
 
iAmAlaska49
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:37 am

Does no one recall that the original 777 prototype was built with PW engines but when CX picked it up, it was re-engined with RR engines??!
 
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747classic
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:39 pm

This is a maintenance support contract, for the upcoming years, to ensure support for the least popular engine at the 744 series.
A re-engine from PW4000 to RR is always possible, but will require a very costly masterchange and the benefits would be marginal.
Because the PW 4000 94 inch series are still in production for the KC-46A, the support for the PW engine will be assured for years to come.

Note (@skippness1E) :
The re-engine masterchange from PW to GE at the 747-200B was payed by Boeing for the GE-CF6-50 engine certification at RA001 and the USAF (E4 series, for the two first produced aircraft.)
Years later Atlas Air used the same masterchange to re-engine two PW powered 747-200's to GE power for fleet unity, using CF6 engines and CF6 pylons from scrapped ANA 747SR aircraft.
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:25 pm

As every one is guessing here
BA had a number of B744 fitted with RB211-524GT engines. The HP 04 module was replaced with the 04 module for the Trent engine. I believe BA had about 12 B744 fitted with these engines, which moved around and were fitted to some B767 as well. These engines were much better performers than the original, and BA wanted more conversions, but it was way too expensive.
Perhaps Silk Way has got access to these engines?
 
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Revelation
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:43 pm

iAmAlaska49 wrote:
Does no one recall that the original 777 prototype was built with PW engines but when CX picked it up, it was re-engined with RR engines??!

Yes, presumably because Boeing could not sell that machine otherwise, could acquire the proper pylons at their internal cost, used in-house knowhow and manpower, could get the return on investment over far more years than a 744F will be flying. It's a very different situation, IMO.
 
a2b7
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:07 pm

Flightglobal.com speculates that the 4th and 5th aircraft that are part of the deal are the two B744F currently operated by Sky Gates Airlines, see https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021 ... 42.article
 
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747classic
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Re: RR to re-engine Silk Way 747Fs swapping for PWs on two

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:18 pm

a2b7 wrote:
Flightglobal.com speculates that the 4th and 5th aircraft that are part of the deal are the two B744F currently operated by Sky Gates Airlines, see https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021 ... 42.article


These two former Cathay 747-467F's are ex Silk Way (VP-BCH and VP-BCI ) both operating now for Sky Gates with the same registrations.

All five (5) are already powered by RR RB211-524G/H-T engines (with the Trent upgrade).

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