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MrHMSH
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Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pm

A little tidbit from a recent Leeham News article: a carrier which does not operate any Airbus ships is in talks to buy A220s and A321neos, with a deal possibly to be confirmed before the end of the year.

What we know from Scott Hamilton so far is thus:

- European
- Not an LCC/ULCC
- Also operates widebodies.
- Operates a network which suggests A321LRs or A321XLRs would be the variant (but not confirmed which variant)
- Not Icelandair

http://leehamnews.com/2021/11/16/air-le ... by-others/
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:55 pm

KLM?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:57 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
KLM?


They operate A330s, which should rule them out.

The guess I've seen which looks promising is TUI.
 
SA280
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:59 pm

It might be LOT
 
timberwolf24
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:03 pm

European, non LLC/ULCC, operates wide bodies, does not have airbus, that would be LOT...
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:03 pm

SA280 wrote:
It might be LOT


They fit all the criteria, given they've not had a smooth relationship with Boeing of late (?) I can see this one being possible.
 
Opus99
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:06 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
SA280 wrote:
It might be LOT


They fit all the criteria, given they've not had a smooth relationship with Boeing of late (?) I can see this one being possible.

Very possible.

But they’re too small to add another 150 220s to the order book
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:11 pm

Opus99 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
SA280 wrote:
It might be LOT


They fit all the criteria, given they've not had a smooth relationship with Boeing of late (?) I can see this one being possible.

Very possible.

But they’re too small to add another 150 220s to the order book


I've not seen a figure of 150 anywhere, where did you see it? I reread the article and comments just to be sure.
 
EduardoL
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:13 pm

Ryanair?
 
rutankrd
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:16 pm

SA280 wrote:
It might be LOT


Yet they aren't all Boeing by a long way a heap of Brazilians and ATRs on estate.

Indeed I am struggling to identify any legacy all Boeing operator of size in Europe these days.

Only KLM and subsidiaries Transavia operate sizeable fleets of 737NG of any age today .
SAS were the other sizeable 737NG operator however they have already moved to Airbus for narrow bodies
Last edited by rutankrd on Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:17 pm

I don't see TUI operating A220s, I could see possibly being an Air Europa or something similar.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:18 pm

rutankrd wrote:
SA280 wrote:
It might be LOT


Yet they aren't all Boeing by a long way a heap of Brazilians and ATRs on estate.

Indeed I struggling to identify any legacy all Boeing operator of size in Europe these days.


Good point. If LO is to be eliminated, then TUI is the only option I can see.
 
Opus99
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:33 pm

Or it might be KLM and Scott made a mistake?
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:40 pm

One deal is with an exclusive Boeing operator, who also is in talks for an A321neo order. The sub-type couldn’t be learned, but given the carrier’s route system, it almost certainly will include the LR and/or XLR.


If we go solely by this it could be any pure 737 operator in Europe.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:52 pm

Icelandair?

They have 757s to replace, and may need something smaller than their MAX8s as well.
 
mig17
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:53 pm

KLM, and both Transavia are currently looking to place a large narrowbody order ...
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:53 pm

Oops, just re-read the OP which says "not Icelandair"!
 
T4thH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:58 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
One deal is with an exclusive Boeing operator, who also is in talks for an A321neo order. The sub-type couldn’t be learned, but given the carrier’s route system, it almost certainly will include the LR and/or XLR.


If we go solely by this it could be any pure 737 operator in Europe.

Sorry, no, as it is 1. no LCC/ULCC and 2. it is an airline with wide and smallbodies:

I say LOT, as LOT is the only airline globally, which has not paid by/has an agreement with Boeing regarding the MAX and B787 disaster. LOT has according to my knowledge, no own planes (or let us say, no Boeing planes, as I am not aware regarding the ATRs). Seems LOT has had only very special contracts with these lessors which have excluded any payments by Boeing or the lessors, so neither the lessors now Boeing are willed to pay. They are one the biggest loosers of this disaster, so they are no fans any more of Boeing.

And just remind, the total number of two different orders shall be enough, so a number of little less than 800 will be reached, so less 150 (for both orders). And the second one is someone else (as example Qantas, as the Qantas board will decide till end of this year; contract will be signed according schedule early in 2022...so no firmed contract this year...so unlikely, Qantas will be the second one).
Last edited by T4thH on Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:07 pm

mig17 wrote:
KLM, and both Transavia are currently looking to place a large narrowbody order ...


Are those order not 'group' orders, ie. AF/KL?

LO seems to be happy with the EMBs, would they switch to A220? Air Baltic A220 was recently in WAW to show what it has to offer, apparently it turned heads. LO management want scale to be able to diversify fleet and up-gauge its bargaining power -- if nothing else, this may be to show Boeing that its loyalty is no longer assured. But where would LO fly the A321? Asian market, India in particular yes, but the plane does not have the legs for expanding the North American offering. But it is also true that 787 may be too big for some markets where LO needs to build up presence before it could sustain widebody service. Would be great to see A321 in LO livery.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:12 pm

rutankrd wrote:
SA280 wrote:
It might be LOT


Yet they aren't all Boeing by a long way a heap of Brazilians and ATRs on estate.

Indeed I am struggling to identify any legacy all Boeing operator of size in Europe these days.

Only KLM and subsidiaries Transavia operate sizeable fleets of 737NG of any age today .
SAS were the other sizeable 737NG operator however they have already moved to Airbus for narrow bodies


LO ATRs are long gone (Q-400s still around). The Brazilians might as well count as Boeings now.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:15 pm

I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.
 
Noshow
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:18 pm

ITA Airways?
 
Ryga
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:22 pm

People keep saying TUI - personally I don’t see why it would be.

In terms of capacity, they have the MAX 10 on order. Nowhere on their short haul network would require A321LR? Egypt, Cape Verde, Gambia and Senegal are/will be operated solely by MAX aircraft.

As for the A220, they’re quite happy with their E190s and have said so recently. So would they not order more of those (E2 - if any) if they needed them?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:23 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I don't see TUI operating A220s, I could see possibly being an Air Europa or something similar.


That's a great shout. More heads needed to think of possible contenders!
 
jhz94
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:39 pm

What about Ukraine International Airlines? They do fit the description with Boeing 737, 767, 777 and E-Jets?
 
Duke91
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:46 pm

The real question is: What did Scott really mean?
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:17 pm

EduardoL wrote:
Ryanair?


You beat me too it! "Although it says not an LCC"

But if it were, the fun and threads we could look forwards too given MIOls history with Airbus.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:24 pm

EduardoL wrote:
Ryanair?


Is an LCC and doesn't operate widebodies.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:30 pm

What happened with Norwegians A320 neo order?
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:49 pm

I'm not sure Air Europa would have the authority to place an order currently, considering the IAG takeover is still progressing to the best of my knowledge.

So this leaves relatively few options - depending on the definition of Europe

I agree with other posters that LOT is a strong contender, and UIA to a lesser extent (in their case extra range is also useful due to sanctioned airspace)

I'd also suggest UTAir. They have the 30 x 737 MAX on order, which (when / if re-certified in Russia) will replace the smaller number of 737-400s and potentially the 800s, but they also have 30 x 737-500s, for which the A220-300 would be an ideal replacement. The A321 would be a suitable replacement for their trio of B767-200ERs.


Dan
 
texl1649
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:22 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.


Really, that is what Leeham News is, at this point.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:26 pm

Noshow wrote:
ITA Airways?


The OP literally says a carrier that doesn’t operate Airbus planes. ITA operates them exclusively.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:27 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
What happened with Norwegians A320 neo order?


It was cancelled.
 
DIJKKIJK
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:53 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
KLM?

They are by no means an exclusive Boeing operator with their A330s and multitudes of Embraers.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:11 pm

Has to be LOT I think.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:24 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
KLM?


They operate A330s, which should rule them out.



Yes, but if we nitpick a little, the KLM Airbus 330's supposedly will be retired by 2025 ...
 
beachroad
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:40 pm

For my money:

Air Europa: The only non LCC that has an exclusively Boeing fleet in Europe (apart from Icelandair). Seems odd timing in view of the IAG discussions. I guess the LR or XLR would fit Europe to Central & South America and the 737-800s would be oddballs in IAG.

TUI: Strictly speaking TUI Belgium obscurely has 4 Embraers, but most people see them as Boeing only. I wonder if they might dump the 737-MAX-10 order in favour of A321, I guess the LR and XLR are equally at home on short hops to Spain or longhaul? Having been on the front line of both 787 and MAX early delivery issues, I can't imagine they've got big love for Boeing.

I thought maybe Transavia, but they've not had widebody aircraft since the 1990s; then I wondered about Jet2 - but they already have A321s on order and wet leased Air Tanker A330s in the recent past.

I don't think there are any other airlines based in Europe that are exclusively Boeing and have wide body aircraft, so Air Europa or TUI if Scott forgot about TUI's obscure four Embraers.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:19 pm

Opus99 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
SA280 wrote:
It might be LOT


They fit all the criteria, given they've not had a smooth relationship with Boeing of late (?) I can see this one being possible.

Very possible.

But they’re too small to add another 150 220s to the order book


They already noted they want to expand in the EU & International.
 
sxf24
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:25 pm

Air Europa and Ukraine International have no money and are struggling to pay its bills. If either bought Airbus, it would be a worthless order. UTair isn’t much different, but a more viable proposition.

The only name suggested that’d really hurt Boeing is TUI.
 
Swiss03
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:38 pm

lets make a quick list here
European airlines with widebodies and an all being fleet
Air europa: ERJ 190 and ATR
TUI: has ERJ-190s (unless they are talking about a specific tui group member but as far as I'm aware tui orders as a group, not single airlines)
UIA: has ERJ190/195s
LOT: has ERJ/Q400
KLM: has A330 and E-jets
AF, LH, LX, OS, SN, BA, EI, IB, SK, EW, TK, ITA, AY, TAP, YU, CSA, DE, all the french tour operators: multiple airbus models on property

Unless I've forgotten something there must be something inherently incorrect with this report
 
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zeke
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:43 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.


It could come from anywhere, for example a ground support equipment supplier.
 
MEA-707
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:44 pm

Indeed everything is mentioned already. Unless they look at the Eurovision song contest and count Israel as European, El Al would be a spectacular Boeing airline for Airbus to win.
 
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william
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:46 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.


I find Leeham News informative and entertaining, he is the Airbus Marketing Department.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:52 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.


Really, that is what Leeham News is, at this point.

I wonder who their source was when they stated that Boeing was not going to launch the 777XF at the Dubai Air Show. You cannot cover aviation and not know a few people working at either Boeing or Airbus, or people connected to them.
 
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zeke
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:58 pm

Swiss03 wrote:
lets make a quick list here
European airlines with widebodies and an all being fleet
Air europa: ERJ 190 and ATR
TUI: has ERJ-190s (unless they are talking about a specific tui group member but as far as I'm aware tui orders as a group, not single airlines)
UIA: has ERJ190/195s
LOT: has ERJ/Q400
KLM: has A330 and E-jets
AF, LH, LX, OS, SN, BA, EI, IB, SK, EW, TK, ITA, AY, TAP, YU, CSA, DE, all the french tour operators: multiple airbus models on property

Unless I've forgotten something there must be something inherently incorrect with this report


Could add EO, UT and PS to the list
 
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keesje
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:00 pm

william wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.


I find Leeham News informative and entertaining, he is the Airbus Marketing Department.


Leeham has been critical on Boeing, but he is close with local Boeing communities. And unfortunately he proved right in recent years. It was a mess, he was reporting it. Qualifying him as Airbus Marketing is Shooting the Messenger.
 
DartHerald
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:07 pm

Are people over-interpreting what Leeham said - could an all-Boeing operator mean currently an all-Boeing narrowbody operator? That would perhaps broaden the possibilities.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:10 pm

keesje wrote:
william wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.


I find Leeham News informative and entertaining, he is the Airbus Marketing Department.


Leeham has been critical on Boeing, but he is close with local Boeing communities. And unfortunately he proved right in recent years. It was a mess, he was reporting it. Qualifying him as Airbus Marketing is Shooting the Messenger.


Scott Hamilton acknowledges talking to Airbus. He doesn’t hide his relationship with Airbus marketing

Scott Hamilton talked to Airbus Chief Commercial Officer Christian Scherer at the IATA AGM on Oct. 3-5 in Boston, and Bjorn Fehrm spoke to Head of Freighter marketing, Crawford Hamilton,


From an article last week: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... more-37783

This smells like it could be a leak from Airbus who probably wanted the deal announced at Dubai or to at least keep up the momentum after the show. Scott knows who it is but is attracting attention with this riddle of a leak.
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
Duke91
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:10 pm

I mean even the most neutral would report mostly negative stuff on Boeing and mostly positive on Airbus. It is just that almost all programs Boeing is doing right now is somehow messed up, while Airbus has been winning the past and this decade. If you look at it this way, no wonder it would sound like PR straight out of Airbus.
 
Duke91
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:13 pm

DartHerald wrote:
Are people over-interpreting what Leeham said - could an all-Boeing operator mean currently an all-Boeing narrowbody operator? That would perhaps broaden the possibilities.


That he forgot or isnt too technical about whether the suspect operates a few other is the most likely one that is fuzzy. I dont think he would mess up whether they are European, WB/NB operator, or non-LCC.

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