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dc10lover
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:32 pm

11/19/2021

ALC orders 111 Airbus aircraft, launches Sustainability Fund
The agreement covers all Airbus families, including the A220, A320, A330 and A350. Joint creation of a sustainability fund fosters industry decarbonization solutions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.compos ... ility-fund

Air Lease Corp. (ALC, Los Angeles, Calif., U.S.) has signed a letter of intent (LoI) covering all Airbus (Toulouse, France) Families. The agreement including 25 A220-300s, 55 A321neos, 20 A321XLRs four A330neos and seven A350Fs. The order, which will be finalized in the coming months, reportedly makes ALC one of Airbus’ largest customers and lessor with the biggest A220 order book. Founded in 2010, ALC has ordered a total of 496 Airbus aircraft to date.
Last edited by dc10lover on Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:40 pm

Does Euro Atlantic still operate scheduled flights, or have they gone completely charter / leasing? If so they might be a contender.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:20 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Scott Hamilton acknowledges talking to Airbus. He doesn’t hide his relationship with Airbus marketing

Scott Hamilton talked to Airbus Chief Commercial Officer Christian Scherer at the IATA AGM on Oct. 3-5 in Boston, and Bjorn Fehrm spoke to Head of Freighter marketing, Crawford Hamilton,


From an article last week: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... more-37783

This smells like it could be a leak from Airbus who probably wanted the deal announced at Dubai or to at least keep up the momentum after the show. Scott knows who it is but is attracting attention with this riddle of a leak.



You do realise that if you cover aviation you are going to need to speak to all OEM's marketing departments? Airbus doesn't need to keep up momentum, Boeing shooting themselves in the foot currently is momentum enough.
 
MCTSET
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:45 am

Could be TUI.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:36 am

On its recent showcase visit to WAW, the A220 came with this on hand:
Image
 
T4thH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:34 am

oxonrow wrote:
On its recent showcase visit to WAW, the A220 came with this on hand:
Image


Please note, this is "Airbus showcase" standard, when they are in a meeting on board for one single customer. As regular, you will also see the headrest with the logo.

There is pretty sure already a nice big collection of them in Airbus storage from former showcases, as for AF, Qantas,
e.g. (I have regular seen them for the head rests on photos).

But it proves, Airbus was in WAW on demand/request of LOT. So it is something more serious, so it is was not just a regular showcase for everyone, there was minimum a meeting/showcase for LOT alone on board during this WAW travel. So the plane was booked for several hours just for one airline-> LOT.
 
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keesje
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:40 am

oxonrow wrote:
On its recent showcase visit to WAW, the A220 came with this on hand:
Image


A nice gesture for LOT people visiting the aircraft, but LOT would do it's own house style safety cards.

KLM might be the one. Apart from A330 WB's (being replaced by 787s) they are one of the last 737 operators left EC mainland. They have a lot of 737 infrastructure, Componets and Engine maintenance deals based on the 737 platform.

A321NEo seems a slam dunk for KLM, as with many (most?) other airlines. It's capacity & payload range capability / flexibility scores high in most fleet-network simulations/ evaluations. https://www.facebook.com/10456362295308 ... 337483982/

For the A220, if Airbus committed to A220-500's from ~2026 they might have a chance.. The 737-800 still have life in them and A220-300/ A321 deliveries starting from ~2023-24 might help. But KLM / Transavia need a ~180+ seat aircraft and the A320NEO seems less popular these days..

Still a 737-8 + A321 split deal might be a likely outcome. If Boeing has a convincing (for KLM Engineering/ fleet executives) MAX plan..
 
Billly2903
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:48 am

Mortyman wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
KLM?


They operate A330s, which should rule them out.



Yes, but if we nitpick a little, the KLM Airbus 330's supposedly will be retired by 2025 ...

I think KLM is happy with their E2 tho.
 
Billly2903
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:55 am

MrHMSH wrote:
A little tidbit from a recent Leeham News article: a carrier which does not operate any Airbus ships is in talks to buy A220s and A321neos, with a deal possibly to be confirmed before the end of the year.

What we know from Scott Hamilton so far is thus:

- European
- Not an LCC/ULCC
- Also operates widebodies.
- Operates a network which suggests A321LRs or A321XLRs would be the variant (but not confirmed which variant)
- Not Icelandair

http://leehamnews.com/2021/11/16/air-le ... by-others/

And... where is the part that suggested the customer is a European ?
 
DartHerald
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:51 pm

In the comments:

Bryce
November 16, 2021
Aha…tidbits of info are being given away!
Are we allowed play “20 Questions”?

If so:
(1) Is the mystery customer NB-only?
(2) Is it an LCC?
(3) Is it European?


I sense a reprimand coming…

REPLY
Scott Hamilton
November 16, 2021
1. No
2. No
3. Yes
 
T4thH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:54 pm

Billly2903 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
A little tidbit from a recent Leeham News article: a carrier which does not operate any Airbus ships is in talks to buy A220s and A321neos, with a deal possibly to be confirmed before the end of the year.

What we know from Scott Hamilton so far is thus:

- European
- Not an LCC/ULCC
- Also operates widebodies.
- Operates a network which suggests A321LRs or A321XLRs would be the variant (but not confirmed which variant)
- Not Icelandair

http://leehamnews.com/2021/11/16/air-le ... by-others/

And... where is the part that suggested the customer is a European ?

Just check the link...
And check the comments below, where the author: Scott Hamilton, has answered some question to: Keesje, Jermaine e.g..
Icelandair?-> Nope

If so:
(1) Is the mystery customer NB-only?
(2) Is it an LCC?
(3) Is it European?
->
1. No
2. No
3. Yes


The rest of the discussion there is without the author....
And it ended like as we see here in this forum...As also half of them there are also here, in this forum....

To say it in a German meme, in English (as it is in English and only in black and white of course):
"The same procedure as every year, James"
 
icelandair75w
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:08 pm

While he did say "No" about Icelandair in the comments section, I can't help but think it is.
It's been said multiple times in the last few months in the financial result presentations and other news of Icelandair Group that a fleet announcement would be made by years end.
Will be interesting to see who this actually turns out to be.
 
kayik
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:27 pm

My guess is LOT
 
T4thH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:28 pm

icelandair75w wrote:
While he did say "No" about Icelandair in the comments section, I can't help but think it is.
It's been said multiple times in the last few months in the financial result presentations and other news of Icelandair Group that a fleet announcement would be made by years end.
Will be interesting to see who this actually turns out to be.

Please note, there are several European airlines, where a decision for the next month regarding orders will be done, have been are already announced shall be done in next month/till end of the year or is widely expected/rumored.
-> Lufthansa group regarding additional planes in the A220/E2 size group (A220 expected).
-> KLM for a general decision, also for the reginal arms (A321 Neo/LR/XLR? or additional MAX or additional E2?)
-> IAG group (just remind the MOI regarding the MAX order....and, where is the order? They have to replace some planes and order soon So a big order is pending/already overdue)
-> AF: order for HOP is pending. And this will be an order for a plane with less than 100 seats (so most likely E190E2)..
-> LOT...as, let us call it, "have been something, in a form betrayed" by Boeing and are really upset.
.......and other, but smaller European one or LCC, or or or

He has excluded Iceland air so...Harris would have been easily able to avoid it by just not answering, but he has, so, I really think, it is not Iceland air.
 
744SPX
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:07 pm

william wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I wonder if Scott Hamilton’s source is the Airbus marketing department. I find such specific leaked information about a potential order a bit odd.


I find Leeham News informative and entertaining, he is the Airbus Marketing Department.


I was waiting to see when this would devolve into an Airbus vs Boeing thread. I was not disappointed. :roll:
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:07 pm

One important factor to consider re LO is that the Polish government (for better or worse) is actively pursuing a plan to make Poland a more viable actor in the aviation industry. Dreamliner and Max troubles apart, this comes with understanding that Poland and Polish business entities cannot rely on US producers alone -- in my view seeing Airbus aircraft with Polish reg numbers is a question of when, not if. Also of note is that the PGL (Polish Aviation Group holding that controls LO) also has a stated aim of becoming an actor on the leasing market. LO reps have repeatedly stated that introducing Airbus aircraft to the fleet would be possible with sufficient 'scale' -- the PGL move into the lessor market may mean that 'scale' is nigh.
Last edited by oxonrow on Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:18 pm

T4thH wrote:
-> LOT...as, let us call it, "have been something, in a form betrayed" by Boeing and are really upset.


Well yes they are suing Boeing because they want an IMO unproportionable high compensation for the MAX grounding..... Either they want that kind of money to finance the Airbus planes, or they are threatening to exclude Boeing from future business.... either way, I don't think Boeing will give in.

T4thH wrote:
-> KLM for a general decision, also for the reginal arms (A321 Neo/LR/XLR? or additional MAX or additional E2?)


AF/KLM apparently will decide on the KLM and Transavia NB replacement in a few weeks, it's not set in stone yet who the winner will be... Rumors about a decision in favor of Boeing were premature. The A321XLR is not a part of the RFP, maybe, if Airbus wins, KLM may see possibilities for potential A321XLR routes but it's not on their priority list yet. Tha A220 is not considered for KL or HV, if Airbus wins it will be the A320/A321.

Billly2903 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

They operate A330s, which should rule them out.



Yes, but if we nitpick a little, the KLM Airbus 330's supposedly will be retired by 2025 ...

I think KLM is happy with their E2 tho.


Correct, the E2-195 is 8% more efficient per trip than their E190s. I don't think they need to expand their order for 25 E295s yet though. But it will be interesting if all E190s will be replaced by E295s or that KL will order E2-190s too.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:54 pm

G'day

icelandair75w wrote:
While he did say "No" about Icelandair in the comments section, I can't help but think it is.
It's been said multiple times in the last few months in the financial result presentations and other news of Icelandair Group that a fleet announcement would be made by years end.
Will be interesting to see who this actually turns out to be.


I am fully aware that everything concerning Iceland is about fish and getting the fish to the customers. But I doubt Icelandair is in a position to place the sizable order mentioned by Leeham nor do they require that number of aircraft. Besides I feel the A220 is too small to move the required volume of fish. The A220 does not take cans either, which come in handy to move fresh fish. I guess they will settle for some A321's, I don't think they even need a long range version of this, plus a few small widebodies.

As for TUI a package tour operator I believe the A220 would be too small being too expensive on a movement per bum cost.

LOT, while I do not want to exclude them, they may be in the market for some A220'ies, possibly also A 321's, but I doubt they are in a position to order the numbers Leeham implies.

Air Europa is in no position to order anything now.

The one competition for a sizable order we know about that is up for a decision short term is KLM/Transavia. And yes, I know they have a few A330'ies but Leeham may have talked about narrowbodies only. Sister AirFrance already committed to the A220 so economies of scale would make sense here. All three, Air France, KLM and Transavia will likely require something bigger like the A321 too, so we end up with the sizeable order mentioned by Leeham. The Embraers at Cityhopper are likely to stay around for a while, there is no rush to replace those before the mainline is fully equipped with new generation equipment. :twocents:

Cheers

Peter
 
godsbeloved
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:11 pm

Please keep in mind that Dutch government is maximizing number of flights in AMS (+LEY) thus growth, longer term, will have to come from more seats per aircraft instead of more flights. To me this implies we can expect more A321/MAX10 size aircraft in the coming order and we won't see a like for like substitution of smaller aircraft....
 
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Polot
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:15 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
The one competition for a sizable order we know about that is up for a decision short term is KLM/Transavia. And yes, I know they have a few A330'ies but Leeham may have talked about narrowbodies only. Sister AirFrance already committed to the A220 so economies of scale would make sense here. All three, Air France, KLM and Transavia will likely require something bigger like the A321 too, so we end up with the sizeable order mentioned by Leeham. The Embraers at Cityhopper are likely to stay around for a while, there is no rush to replace those before the mainline is fully equipped with new generation equipment. :twocents:

KLM has no use for the A220 with E195-E2s in the fleet. The A223 is not big enough to be worth it over the 195E2 that are replacing the 73G, too small versus 738s (or A320s), and AMS too slot contained to be cutting such a fine line between E195E2/A223s.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:34 pm

Polot wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
The one competition for a sizable order we know about that is up for a decision short term is KLM/Transavia. And yes, I know they have a few A330'ies but Leeham may have talked about narrowbodies only. Sister AirFrance already committed to the A220 so economies of scale would make sense here. All three, Air France, KLM and Transavia will likely require something bigger like the A321 too, so we end up with the sizeable order mentioned by Leeham. The Embraers at Cityhopper are likely to stay around for a while, there is no rush to replace those before the mainline is fully equipped with new generation equipment. :twocents:

KLM has no use for the A220 with E195-E2s in the fleet. The A223 is not big enough to be worth it over the 195E2 that are replacing the 73G, too small versus 738s (or A320s), and AMS too slot contained to be cutting such a fine line between E195E2/A223s.


Question directed at anyone that knows, are there many routes on which KLM could use the payload-range advantage of the A220-300 over the E195-E2?

Would it be possible that AF-KLM have an off-record confirmation from Airbus that the A220-500 is coming, just that they can't yet commit to a time-schedule for it? If so an A220-300 ordercould anticipate a common fleet of 300's and 500's in the future.
Last edited by Taxi645 on Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
T4thH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:43 pm

frigatebird wrote:
T4thH wrote:
-> LOT...as, let us call it, "have been something, in a form betrayed" by Boeing and are really upset.


Well yes they are suing Boeing because they want an IMO unproportionable high compensation for the MAX grounding..... Either they want that kind of money to finance the Airbus planes, or they are threatening to exclude Boeing from future business.... either way, I don't think Boeing will give in.

[


Sorry, this part is not correct.
LOT DOES NOT GET ANY COMPENSATION for the MAX and the B787 disasters. This is the problem and LOT is the last airline without any form of agreement with Boeing, and the only one, who has this problem.

They have no own Boeing planes (all leased) and it seems, they have really bad contracts, that neither the lessor nor Boeing has to pay any compensation in this case. .
Yes, it seems these were NOW really bad contracts and pretty sure, the leasing rates are really low. (this was GOOD...till it failed)...as they excludes any compensation. Seems LOT made a gamble....and lost.
 
kayik
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:26 pm

Another all Boeing airline is SunExpress. They have a sizeable domestic route network from their İzmir hub. 737-800 is to big for at least some of their domestic destinations. They had 42 MAX on order and non delivered as far as I know although some are produced.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 pm

Taxi645 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
The one competition for a sizable order we know about that is up for a decision short term is KLM/Transavia. And yes, I know they have a few A330'ies but Leeham may have talked about narrowbodies only. Sister AirFrance already committed to the A220 so economies of scale would make sense here. All three, Air France, KLM and Transavia will likely require something bigger like the A321 too, so we end up with the sizeable order mentioned by Leeham. The Embraers at Cityhopper are likely to stay around for a while, there is no rush to replace those before the mainline is fully equipped with new generation equipment. :twocents:

KLM has no use for the A220 with E195-E2s in the fleet. The A223 is not big enough to be worth it over the 195E2 that are replacing the 73G, too small versus 738s (or A320s), and AMS too slot contained to be cutting such a fine line between E195E2/A223s.


Question directed at anyone that knows, are there many routes on which KLM could use the payload-range advantage of the A220-300 over the E195-E2?

Would it be possible that AF-KLM have an off-record confirmation from Airbus that the A220-500 is coming, just that they can't yet commit to a time-schedule for it? If so an A220-300 ordercould anticipate a common fleet of 300's and 500's in the future.


Back in July, SimpleFlying reported a tender issue by AF-KL Group to acquire new aircraft from Airbus. So it is very much possible this could be it

https://simpleflying.com/air-france-klm-airbus-boeing/
 
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Polot
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:25 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
Polot wrote:
KLM has no use for the A220 with E195-E2s in the fleet. The A223 is not big enough to be worth it over the 195E2 that are replacing the 73G, too small versus 738s (or A320s), and AMS too slot contained to be cutting such a fine line between E195E2/A223s.


Question directed at anyone that knows, are there many routes on which KLM could use the payload-range advantage of the A220-300 over the E195-E2?

Would it be possible that AF-KLM have an off-record confirmation from Airbus that the A220-500 is coming, just that they can't yet commit to a time-schedule for it? If so an A220-300 ordercould anticipate a common fleet of 300's and 500's in the future.


Back in July, SimpleFlying reported a tender issue by AF-KL Group to acquire new aircraft from Airbus. So it is very much possible this could be it

https://simpleflying.com/air-france-klm-airbus-boeing/

Which is almost certainly 737Max vs A320neo family, since the airplanes are intended to replace KL’s 738/739s and Transavia’s 737NGs. They are not going to be interested in A220s to replace 176-189 seat jets.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:14 pm

Taxi645 wrote:
are there many routes on which KLM could use the payload-range advantage of the A220-300 over the E195-E2?


None. Most routes are only a hundred to a few hundred nm. All airports on mainland Europe is less than 1200 nm from AMS, including Moscow to the northeast and Istanbul to the southeast.

The only destination that KLM/Transavia operates with a narrowbody from AMS that is further than this, is the Canary Islands (1700 nm).
 
Capt.Fantastic
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:50 pm

Could it be Air Europa ?
 
DartHerald
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:56 pm

Of course, we could all just wait and see!
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:58 pm

oxonrow wrote:
On its recent showcase visit to WAW, the A220 came with this on hand:
Image


I really like this bird.
Hope they go for it.
Though looking at the numbers they seem quite big for LOT alone.
 
EMB170
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:17 pm

If it's indeed KL, it would make sense for a couple of reasons:

(1) Fleet commonality with AF on the A220s. Now that AF has ordered A220s, it makes sense for economies of scale for KL to have the same a/c.
(2) Allows KL to launch A321LRs on longer stage lengths (Middle East, Caucasus, New England, etc) if they have a market in mind that's too small for the 789.

I agree it's likely not LO as I can't see LO placing an order for that many aircraft.
 
godsbeloved
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:37 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
are there many routes on which KLM could use the payload-range advantage of the A220-300 over the E195-E2?


None. Most routes are only a hundred to a few hundred nm. All airports on mainland Europe is less than 1200 nm from AMS, including Moscow to the northeast and Istanbul to the southeast.

The only destination that KLM/Transavia operates with a narrowbody from AMS that is further than this, is the Canary Islands (1700 nm).


Before the pandemic, Transavia used to fly these routes or will start these shortly, that are relatively long:. I don't see them going the LR/XLR route though...

2800NM HV6901/6905 AMS-DXB
2500NM AMS-BJL
2300NM ORY-SID
 
sxf24
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:37 pm

EMB170 wrote:
If it's indeed KL, it would make sense for a couple of reasons:

(1) Fleet commonality with AF on the A220s. Now that AF has ordered A220s, it makes sense for economies of scale for KL to have the same a/c.
(2) Allows KL to launch A321LRs on longer stage lengths (Middle East, Caucasus, New England, etc) if they have a market in mind that's too small for the 789.

I agree it's likely not LO as I can't see LO placing an order for that many aircraft.


What slots is KL going to use?
 
MEA-707
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:53 pm

Of course if Transavia buys A321xlr's they can open up a lot of things like Natal, St Maarten, Tanzania, Namibia, Seychelles, Kenya, Nepal, Sri Lanka and other things with tourism and VFR appeal, with the disappearance of Martinair, KLM doesn't have a long range LCC and while trying to open up more tourist destinations it might be that the 787 is still too big for some of these destinations.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:04 pm

The A321neo would indeed be an excellent aircraft for Transavia, especially as Orly and Schipol became more and more slot constrained. Not really sure how the A220 would fit in here although Transavia Netherlands does have a handful of 737-700s. I guess as Transavia Netherlands does more and more flying out of EIN and RTM, maybe a larger fleet of smaller aircraft does become more viable? With the NEO production rate being hiked eventually to ~75 a month, it does give Airbus the ability to win RFPs (such as KLM/Transavia) that weren't necessarily worth their while in previous times. Will be interesting to see what the result is here.

LOT seems to have had a very challenging relationship with Boeing regarding compensation for the 737MAX grounding. Maybe this is Airbus making hay whilst the sun shines and opportunistically getting some NEOs into their fleet?

How about El Al? I don't believe they have any Max's either in fleet or on order. They're a 100% Boeing airline with a long haul fleet.


keesje wrote:
Leeham has been critical on Boeing, but he is close with local Boeing communities. And unfortunately he proved right in recent years. It was a mess, he was reporting it. Qualifying him as Airbus Marketing is Shooting the Messenger.



All the tropes about Leeham being an Airbus marketing mouthpiece are indeed a bit tiresome. A classic case of shooting the messenger who has a tendency to deliver uncomfortable truths.

As the tropes become more common, I feel it's important to point out that many of them originate in the aftermath of the 737MAX accidents, like with similar efforts to discredit Dominic Gates of the Seattle times. I distinctly remember someone saying that Leeham had "lost all credibility" when they stated as a matter of fact that the two crashes were linked. Those same voices also seem to be the ones furthering the narrative that grounding the aircraft was an overreaction and that everything has been fine management wise at Boeing for the past decade or two. One can make up one's own mind about how grounded in reality such statements are.

At the end of the day, Boeing could alway drop sales hints/rumours Leeham's way, though based on the Dubai Airshow, I guess they might be a little thin on the ground.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:19 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
Of course if Transavia buys A321xlr's they can open up a lot of things like Natal, St Maarten, Tanzania, Namibia, Seychelles, Kenya, Nepal, Sri Lanka and other things with tourism and VFR appeal, with the disappearance of Martinair, KLM doesn't have a long range LCC and while trying to open up more tourist destinations it might be that the 787 is still too big for some of these destinations.


Transavia does not operate widebodies and it is an LCC.

Honestly, everyone, look at the OP. There are some basics there before guessing airlines that are clearly out of scope. If you want to say KLM or LOT (as I did with LOT) because Leeham made a mistake and forgot about small A330s and Embraers, that's one thing - but don't just go on a spiel about how an airline should have A220s or A321neoXLRs when its off topic.
 
T4thH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:32 am

kayik wrote:
Another all Boeing airline is SunExpress. They have a sizeable domestic route network from their İzmir hub. 737-800 is to big for at least some of their domestic destinations. They had 42 MAX on order and non delivered as far as I know although some are produced.

No, as SunExpress is no European airline, as home in Antalya, it has no widebodies...and it is the same as for TUI fly or other charter airlines in Europe. the smalest useful jetsize for a charter airline iseems to be somehing in the size of an A320 or B737-8.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:38 am

T4thH wrote:
kayik wrote:
Another all Boeing airline is SunExpress. They have a sizeable domestic route network from their İzmir hub. 737-800 is to big for at least some of their domestic destinations. They had 42 MAX on order and non delivered as far as I know although some are produced.

No, as SunExpress is no European airline, as home in Antalya, it has no widebodies...and it is the same as for TUI fly or other charter airlines in Europe. the smalest useful jetsize for a charter airline iseems to be somehing in the size of an A320 or B737-8.


TUI (UK) have some 767s in their fleet, plus of course the 787s. Their network includes a fair number of longhaul and midhaul routes, so I wouldn't discount them.
 
F27500
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:49 am

Cargolux.
 
bluecrew
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:55 am

mig17 wrote:
KLM, and both Transavia are currently looking to place a large narrowbody order ...

KLM is also taking delivery of Embraer E2's for CityHopper. Not saying it's impossible, but it would make the A220 interest a bit odd.
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:06 am

Considering that the entire IAG fleet is Airbus, except for BA, it makes sense for BA to replace its Boeings with Airbus.

Lit of major full service airlines with no Airbus (taken from top 50 list which would be useful for such a large order):
Lufthansa Cargo
Air France Hop
KLM Cityhopper
Martinair
Cityjet
Utair
LOT
Air Europa
Jet2 only has a single Airbus
TUI Airways
Azur Air
Smartwings
UIA
Belavia
Blue Air
Icelandic Air
Icelandic Air Cargo
Royal Flight
Pegas Fly
Nordstar
Luxair
Enter Air
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:37 am

I took out any airlines which only have narowbodies

Lufthansa Cargo
Martinair
Utair
LOT
Air Europa
TUI Airways
Azur Air
UIA
Icelandic Air
Icelandic Air Cargo
Royal Flight
Pegas Fly
Cargolux
Fly Pro
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:42 am

TUI as a whole only has Boeing and Embraer fits the description and has 46 MAX on order. Some of their subsidiaries/departments are only operating Boeing (e.g. TUI UK has both widebodies and is Boeing only, has some MAX on order).
 
T4thH
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:08 am

MrHMSH wrote:
T4thH wrote:
kayik wrote:
Another all Boeing airline is SunExpress. They have a sizeable domestic route network from their İzmir hub. 737-800 is to big for at least some of their domestic destinations. They had 42 MAX on order and non delivered as far as I know although some are produced.

No, as SunExpress is no European airline, as home in Antalya, it has no widebodies...and it is the same as for TUI fly or other charter airlines in Europe. the smalest useful jetsize for a charter airline iseems to be somehing in the size of an A320 or B737-8.


TUI (UK) have some 767s in their fleet, plus of course the 787s. Their network includes a fair number of longhaul and midhaul routes, so I wouldn't discount them.
Sorry in case of a a misunderstanding. I do not see the A220 for Tui Fly, else (European Airline + wb, more or less all Boeing (and no Airbus)) fits pretty well for TuiFly.
Tui Belgium has a low number of E-jets, but I do not see, that Tui Fly will order the A220.
 
inkjet7
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:12 pm

T4thH wrote:
-> AF: order for HOP is pending. And this will be an order for a plane with less than 100 seats (so most likely E190E2)..

For the record: HOP will receive two E190's ex KL-C after maintenance in WAW. (ex PH-EZI/K).
 
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keesje
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:25 pm

For Transavia A321s seem great. Their 738s always seem stuffed. They used to operate 757s too sold one to NZ Airforce, that's having fun with them..https://youtu.be/Z2kzmP1Jy_M..
 
TWA902fly
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:43 pm

beachroad wrote:
For my money:

Air Europa: The only non LCC that has an exclusively Boeing fleet in Europe (apart from Icelandair). Seems odd timing in view of the IAG discussions. I guess the LR or XLR would fit Europe to Central & South America and the 737-800s would be oddballs in IAG.

TUI: Strictly speaking TUI Belgium obscurely has 4 Embraers, but most people see them as Boeing only. I wonder if they might dump the 737-MAX-10 order in favour of A321, I guess the LR and XLR are equally at home on short hops to Spain or longhaul? Having been on the front line of both 787 and MAX early delivery issues, I can't imagine they've got big love for Boeing.

I thought maybe Transavia, but they've not had widebody aircraft since the 1990s; then I wondered about Jet2 - but they already have A321s on order and wet leased Air Tanker A330s in the recent past.

I don't think there are any other airlines based in Europe that are exclusively Boeing and have wide body aircraft, so Air Europa or TUI if Scott forgot about TUI's obscure four Embraers.


Where exactly in Central America can an XLR make it to from MAD?, MAD-SJO is 5286sm, MAD-PTY is 5072sm, etc. For reference, MAD-Central America is roughly the same distance as MAD-SEA/YVR.

'902
 
airlinepeanuts
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:16 pm

Avelo
 
Ryga
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:38 pm

airlinepeanuts wrote:
Avelo


“European” :lol:
 
jbs2886
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:13 pm

airlinepeanuts wrote:
Avelo


Please read the OP. That’s an LLC, not European, and doesn’t have WB. Come on.
 
sxf24
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Re: Leeham News: An exclusive Boeing operator is in talks for A220 and A321neo

Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:16 pm

I think the parameters of the discussion that are unnecessarily narrow. KL is evaluating Airbus, as is another Europe adjacent Boeing operator. This is normal.

I know of two all Airbus operators seriously evaluating the MAX.

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