Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
b777900
Topic Author
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:27 pm

What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:34 am

What will PHF do with all that gate space, There are 3 new airlines and none have PHF on target to expand too seems like all that empty space is waste.
 
nkops
Posts: 2306
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:27 pm

Not too familiar with PHF, but not sure what you could do with it. I am sure the airport , like every airport, is in constant discussions with airlines and you just hope for the best.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:45 pm

Wow, that's quite a dropoff...and a huge over abundance of gates (I'd imagine AA uses two gates, maybe three max, and it appears the airport has nine jetways). Maybe put one of those concourses on a truck and move it to FAT, which has a major shortage of gate space (TIC, of course). In all seriousness though, I always thought that the Virginia Beach metro area was way too small for two airports. With ORF so close (and Richmond not too far the other way), it seems like a bit of a waste to have a terminal at PHF.
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:26 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Wow, that's quite a dropoff...and a huge over abundance of gates (I'd imagine AA uses two gates, maybe three max, and it appears the airport has nine jetways). Maybe put one of those concourses on a truck and move it to FAT, which has a major shortage of gate space (TIC, of course). In all seriousness though, I always thought that the Virginia Beach metro area was way too small for two airports. With ORF so close (and Richmond not too far the other way), it seems like a bit of a waste to have a terminal at PHF.


PHF is a great option for people in the Hampton Roads area. I lived there for years and always hoped they would find more service. The drive through the tunnel to ORF is a huge pain and the drive to Richmond isn't much better. There are a lot of people in Hampton Roads, it's the closest airport to Colonial Williamsburg, Busch Gardens and William and Mary. They must charge higher fees than the surrounding competition that make it uncompetitive.
 
JFKCMILAXFLL
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:45 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:39 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Wow, that's quite a dropoff...and a huge over abundance of gates (I'd imagine AA uses two gates, maybe three max, and it appears the airport has nine jetways). Maybe put one of those concourses on a truck and move it to FAT, which has a major shortage of gate space (TIC, of course). In all seriousness though, I always thought that the Virginia Beach metro area was way too small for two airports. With ORF so close (and Richmond not too far the other way), it seems like a bit of a waste to have a terminal at PHF.


The only thing I can think of is that residents of the Peninsula (Hampton, Newport News, Williamaburg) would have a nearby airport, and therefore wouldn't have to traverse the Hampton Roads bridge and tunnel (a smaller version of the Chesapeake Bay bridge and tunnel) and its tolls. But it seems that ORF is far busier, probably due to the larger population on the "Todewater" side (Norfolk/Pertsmouth/Virgina Beach). I was a student at the then-Hampton Institute for the 1975/76 school year, and had occasion to use both PHF and ORF. Usually, I travelled between Hampton and my native NYC by bus (or occasionally car), but my grandmother passed away in March, so I flew PHF-JFK on NA for her services in Brooklyn. Her wishes were to be interred in her native North Carolina, next to my grandfather, so after the services in Brooklyn, my mother and I and a few relatives flew LGA-CLT on DL, with my grandmother's remains in the cargo hold. After the services in NC, I returned to Hampton on Piedmont, CLT-FAY-ORF.
 
deanva1957
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:39 pm

I love the airport. It has always had trouble keeping airlines, if Air Tran would have kept flying instead of merging with Southwest the airport would still be a busy one. I hope Delta will be returning and I read that they have another airline coming don't know when though.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:58 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Wow, that's quite a dropoff...and a huge over abundance of gates (I'd imagine AA uses two gates, maybe three max, and it appears the airport has nine jetways). Maybe put one of those concourses on a truck and move it to FAT, which has a major shortage of gate space (TIC, of course). In all seriousness though, I always thought that the Virginia Beach metro area was way too small for two airports. With ORF so close (and Richmond not too far the other way), it seems like a bit of a waste to have a terminal at PHF.


PHF is a great option for people in the Hampton Roads area. I lived there for years and always hoped they would find more service. The drive through the tunnel to ORF is a huge pain and the drive to Richmond isn't much better. There are a lot of people in Hampton Roads, it's the closest airport to Colonial Williamsburg, Busch Gardens and William and Mary. They must charge higher fees than the surrounding competition that make it uncompetitive.


While PHF would be a great option for the folks on the Hampton side, a lot of HR folks wishing to see more service at PHF need to realize that the region itself can’t support two airports that successfully sustain airline services. It has gotten away with RJ services from DL and AA ATL and CLT, PHL hubs prior to Covid.

The drive to Richmond from the folks on the Hampton/NN/Williamsburg side has improved tremendously with I-64 being widened from 2 to 3 lanes. I just don’t see the airport seeing any new carriers.
Last edited by bigb on Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BENAir01
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:15 pm

My family that lives in Williamsburg flies out of Richmond. It's not too much farther, cheaper, and has more nonstops. PHF has to subsidize air carrier to get more passamgers and I'm not sure they're willing to do that.
 
southernav
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:52 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:37 pm

Where did Air Tran serve PHF from?
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 8268
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:47 pm

“If you build it, they will come!” :duck:
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4750
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:03 pm

southernav wrote:
Where did Air Tran serve PHF from?

They started PHF about two years before RIC. I seem to remember them serving ATL, MCO, and I think even PHL, LGA, and BOS, but don't quote me on that. I think at one point they had about five or six destinations going at once. When they opened RIC, it pulled a lot of that traffic away, so they ended up serving ATL, MCO, TPA, LGA, and BOS from there...maybe a couple of others. My memory is fuzzy, so some of the details may be off.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10453
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:29 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
“If you build it, they will come!” :duck:


The plan appears to be to keep throwing money at it.

Giardino said talks are under way with all airlines in the marketplace. He touted the airport’s $38 million in capital improvements made since 2016 with $40 million planned for terminal enhancements through 2027.

In July, the airport was awarded a grant valued at $847,646, through the U.S. Department of Transportation to recruit United Airlines’ return to the airport for the first time since the early 1980s. Backed by public, private and regional support, the grant will help start twice daily nonstop flights to Washington Dulles International Airport next year, although Joseph said details are being finalized. The grant and associated add-ons resulted in a $2 million investment in the airport.

And, in September, ground was broken for a $15 million airport expansion by Aery Aviation, a Newport News aerospace company. The project will create a 60,000-square-foot hangar and engineering facility at the airport. Joseph said it’s the largest private monetary investment for the airport, which will serve as the ground lessor.


That really doesn't fix the problem of competition for travelers posed by proximate airports with more n/s destinations, frequencies, and more carriers for more fare price competition.

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-busi ... story.html
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4390
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
“If you build it, they will come!” :duck:


The plan appears to be to keep throwing money at it.

Giardino said talks are under way with all airlines in the marketplace. He touted the airport’s $38 million in capital improvements made since 2016 with $40 million planned for terminal enhancements through 2027.

In July, the airport was awarded a grant valued at $847,646, through the U.S. Department of Transportation to recruit United Airlines’ return to the airport for the first time since the early 1980s. Backed by public, private and regional support, the grant will help start twice daily nonstop flights to Washington Dulles International Airport next year, although Joseph said details are being finalized. The grant and associated add-ons resulted in a $2 million investment in the airport.

And, in September, ground was broken for a $15 million airport expansion by Aery Aviation, a Newport News aerospace company. The project will create a 60,000-square-foot hangar and engineering facility at the airport. Joseph said it’s the largest private monetary investment for the airport, which will serve as the ground lessor.


That really doesn't fix the problem of competition for travelers posed by proximate airports with more n/s destinations, frequencies, and more carriers for more fare price competition.

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-busi ... story.html


IAD-PHF makes little sense. There is significant traffic between NVA/DC and the Hampton Roads, it is a route that makes little sense via air. ORD-PHF would be much more useful.
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:34 pm

Could/would a carrier like Avelo, find PHF attractive for some routes and/or profitable uses for aircraft there (especially if well incentivized to do so)?

On a related note - what would be some of the highest demand (and/or highest yielding routes) out of PHF?
 
User avatar
b777900
Topic Author
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:27 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:44 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
“If you build it, they will come!” :duck:


The plan appears to be to keep throwing money at it.

Giardino said talks are under way with all airlines in the marketplace. He touted the airport’s $38 million in capital improvements made since 2016 with $40 million planned for terminal enhancements through 2027.

In July, the airport was awarded a grant valued at $847,646, through the U.S. Department of Transportation to recruit United Airlines’ return to the airport for the first time since the early 1980s. Backed by public, private and regional support, the grant will help start twice daily nonstop flights to Washington Dulles International Airport next year, although Joseph said details are being finalized. The grant and associated add-ons resulted in a $2 million investment in the airport.

And, in September, ground was broken for a $15 million airport expansion by Aery Aviation, a Newport News aerospace company. The project will create a 60,000-square-foot hangar and engineering facility at the airport. Joseph said it’s the largest private monetary investment for the airport, which will serve as the ground lessor.


That really doesn't fix the problem of competition for travelers posed by proximate airports with more n/s destinations, frequencies, and more carriers for more fare price competition.

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-busi ... story.html


IAD-PHF makes little sense. There is significant traffic between NVA/DC and the Hampton Roads, it is a route that makes little sense via air. ORD-PHF would be much more useful.


OR even better PHF-EWR or PHF-IAH on e175..
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:48 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
Could/would a carrier like Avelo, find PHF attractive for some routes and/or profitable uses for aircraft there (especially if well incentivized to do so)?

On a related note - what would be some of the highest demand (and/or highest yielding routes) out of PHF?


Not really…… The market isn’t there for PHF for successful service with ORF.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1683
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:49 pm

Aren't there lots of airports with far too much gate space? IIRC, ITO opened its terminal back in the regulated era - when all U.S. mainland-Hawaii operators were required by the government to serve the airport along with HNL. I believe much of this gigantic terminal (designed for what, 8 747s?!?) has been empty in the decades since then. PIT was once thought to be the nicest airport in the world; but then its sole hub carrier decided to focus on more lucrative opportunities elsewhere (CLT, DCA, PHL and PHX). I believe PIT is finally getting around to downsizing its white elephant terminal. Even MEM, which had an insanely old terminal, is knocking down gates that just won't be needed. MCI had three awfully designed horseshoe shaped terminals that I don't think ever were fully utilized, but luckily the two remaining ones will soon be torn down once a much more modern, appropriately sized facility opens to replace them. Another airport in Missouri, STL, has so many empty gates some are believed to be haunted! ONT has been getting a lot busier lately, but for a while was a ghost town catering more to filming than commercial airline passengers. I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of other small towns that had big dreams and built far more space than they ever needed.... Perhaps PHF is another one of them?
Last edited by SurfandSnow on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:53 pm

b777900 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

The plan appears to be to keep throwing money at it.

Giardino said talks are under way with all airlines in the marketplace. He touted the airport’s $38 million in capital improvements made since 2016 with $40 million planned for terminal enhancements through 2027.

In July, the airport was awarded a grant valued at $847,646, through the U.S. Department of Transportation to recruit United Airlines’ return to the airport for the first time since the early 1980s. Backed by public, private and regional support, the grant will help start twice daily nonstop flights to Washington Dulles International Airport next year, although Joseph said details are being finalized. The grant and associated add-ons resulted in a $2 million investment in the airport.

And, in September, ground was broken for a $15 million airport expansion by Aery Aviation, a Newport News aerospace company. The project will create a 60,000-square-foot hangar and engineering facility at the airport. Joseph said it’s the largest private monetary investment for the airport, which will serve as the ground lessor.


That really doesn't fix the problem of competition for travelers posed by proximate airports with more n/s destinations, frequencies, and more carriers for more fare price competition.

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-busi ... story.html


IAD-PHF makes little sense. There is significant traffic between NVA/DC and the Hampton Roads, it is a route that makes little sense via air. ORD-PHF would be much more useful.


OR even better PHF-EWR or PHF-IAH on e175..


UA barely even flies ORF-IAH already lol. There’s a bigger demand for ORF-ORD with military traffic between With Big Navy in Norfolk and Navy Training Command in Chicago.

I think there is way too much wishful think for service at PHF lol.
 
TexasAirCorp
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:24 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:04 pm

Am surprised no one has mentioned People Express 2.0 which had its main base at PHF. Its business model was sh*t, and the people behind it were crooks, but it did prove there is some demand in the catchment area for an Allegiant/Avelo style service. ATL, EWR, PIT and PVD showed enough demand for 3-4x weekly, and the usual Southern holiday spots (MCO, MSY etc) worked on 1-2x weekly. Frontier also served DEN from PHF for a good few years and saw some success, it was quickly upgraded from an A318 to an A320.

I can't see Breeze looking at PHF since they already have a base at ORF, but I think someone like Avelo could make it work with a few 737-700s.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 2080
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:19 pm

Many towns in the Carolinas went through an airport consolidation process. That's why you see airports serving multiple municipalities, like GSO, GSP, RDU, etc.

I am wondering why this was missed with the Hampton Roads area?

Rajahdhani wrote:
Could/would a carrier like Avelo, find PHF attractive for some routes and/or profitable uses for aircraft there (especially if well incentivized to do so)?

On a related note - what would be some of the highest demand (and/or highest yielding routes) out of PHF?


PHF would really have to undercut its fees vs ORF if it's going to attract ULCCs, which I don't see it doing.

I feel the best politically-friendly solution for situations like this would be to have one airport operate as cargo and charter operations, and the other airport would be focused on passenger operations. So in this instance, PHF could be the primary cargo airport for the Hampton Roads region, and ORF would be the primary passenger airport.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10453
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:08 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Aren't there lots of airports with far too much gate space?


There are some, and you cite some good examples. They're spending a lot of money to shrink MEM (although updates were needed). CVG spend a lot of $ to demo Concourse C. Airport passenger facilities are fixed assets - it costs $$$ to shrink (and they can't be relocated!)

A couple of posts come at this from opposite directions:

(yours) Facilities vacated rapidly

readytotaxi - Build it and they will come

If PIT hadn't been built, US would have dehubbed even earlier. Yet U.S. bankruptcy law means a 25-year lease on a terminal is worth just slightly more than the paper on which it's written, given the propensity of U.S. carriers to make Chapter 11 filings and make use of the contracts termination provision.

It's easy to argue terminal construction plans are too ambitious but people do that without perfect foresight. Remember all the *****ing that AS and WN did about spending in SEA? It doesn't look overbuilt now, does it? SMF's expansion also had lots of detractors. Little airports with good access to somebody else's money will do stupid things.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26701
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:41 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
southernav wrote:
Where did Air Tran serve PHF from?

They started PHF about two years before RIC. I seem to remember them serving ATL, MCO, and I think even PHL, LGA, and BOS, but don't quote me on that. I think at one point they had about five or six destinations going at once. When they opened RIC, it pulled a lot of that traffic away, so they ended up serving ATL, MCO, TPA, LGA, and BOS from there...maybe a couple of others. My memory is fuzzy, so some of the details may be off.


I think that’s it plus FLL.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5297
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:01 pm

There are a few airlines not currently serving ORF such as AS, XP, B6, and SY who could add service out of PHF.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:39 pm

jplatts wrote:
There are a few airlines not currently serving ORF such as AS, XP, B6, and SY who could add service out of PHF.


AS will not start SEA to ORF non-stop….. Especially when ORF currently lacks any trans con flights to LAX or SFO currently…. Why in the earth would they start SEA-PHF? Not happening….

B6 will not fly to PHF when they don’t even fly to ORF… (This is actually a surprise to me that they don’t fly to ORF already)….

XP is a wild card….. This could be a possibility I have to admit.

SY is a wild card….
 
jplatts
Posts: 5297
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:02 am

bigb wrote:
AS will not start SEA to ORF non-stop….. Especially when ORF currently lacks any trans con flights to LAX or SFO currently…. Why in the earth would they start SEA-PHF? Not happening….


AS had operated CHS-SEA nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and SEA was the only city west of DEN that had nonstop service from CHS prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are some AS destinations in Alaska, British Columbia, Montana, and Washington State that have nonstop service to SEA on AS but no nonstop service to California.

AS might possibly be willing to add service to ORF or PHF with AS having served SEA nonstop from CHS prior to B6 adding CHS-LAX nonstop service along with ORF/PHF being one of the top remaining U.S. markets without AS service.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4390
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:27 am

jplatts wrote:
bigb wrote:
AS will not start SEA to ORF non-stop….. Especially when ORF currently lacks any trans con flights to LAX or SFO currently…. Why in the earth would they start SEA-PHF? Not happening….


AS had operated CHS-SEA nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and SEA was the only city west of DEN that had nonstop service from CHS prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are some AS destinations in Alaska, British Columbia, Montana, and Washington State that have nonstop service to SEA on AS but no nonstop service to California.

AS might possibly be willing to add service to ORF or PHF with AS having served SEA nonstop from CHS prior to B6 adding CHS-LAX nonstop service along with ORF/PHF being one of the top remaining U.S. markets without AS service.


As would probably launch ORF/PHF to SAN before SEA. At least SAN has a navy/navy contractor related traffic to somewhat support the route. Im not quite sure what travel-heavy economic ties there are between Hampton Roads and SEA.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:28 am

jplatts wrote:
bigb wrote:
AS will not start SEA to ORF non-stop….. Especially when ORF currently lacks any trans con flights to LAX or SFO currently…. Why in the earth would they start SEA-PHF? Not happening….


AS had operated CHS-SEA nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and SEA was the only city west of DEN that had nonstop service from CHS prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are some AS destinations in Alaska, British Columbia, Montana, and Washington State that have nonstop service to SEA on AS but no nonstop service to California.

AS might possibly be willing to add service to ORF or PHF with AS having served SEA nonstop from CHS prior to B6 adding CHS-LAX nonstop service along with ORF/PHF being one of the top remaining U.S. markets without AS service.


CHS and ORF are completely different markets…… Telling ya, living in the area since 2012. Until ORF sees a LAX or SFO flight, SEA is out of the picture. PHF isn’t going to anything from AS at all….
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4750
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:30 am

MAH4546 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
southernav wrote:
Where did Air Tran serve PHF from?

They started PHF about two years before RIC. I seem to remember them serving ATL, MCO, and I think even PHL, LGA, and BOS, but don't quote me on that. I think at one point they had about five or six destinations going at once. When they opened RIC, it pulled a lot of that traffic away, so they ended up serving ATL, MCO, TPA, LGA, and BOS from there...maybe a couple of others. My memory is fuzzy, so some of the details may be off.


I think that’s it plus FLL.

I thought there was something in south Florida.. They had a genuinely decent little operation at PHF, all from the original concourse of about four or five gates. Presumably that's what People Express (3?) was trying to recreate — that, and scamming the airport authority.

AirTran shifting the majority of their ops to RIC and then WN pulling the plug after the merger is what sent the airport into a tailspin though. The airport was always great because of the simplicity, but then they grew too much to be simple anymore. Maybe they could try to go after Allegiant to see if they'd give it another shot...it seems like their kind of market.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:35 am

usflyer msp wrote:
jplatts wrote:
bigb wrote:
AS will not start SEA to ORF non-stop….. Especially when ORF currently lacks any trans con flights to LAX or SFO currently…. Why in the earth would they start SEA-PHF? Not happening….


AS had operated CHS-SEA nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and SEA was the only city west of DEN that had nonstop service from CHS prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are some AS destinations in Alaska, British Columbia, Montana, and Washington State that have nonstop service to SEA on AS but no nonstop service to California.

AS might possibly be willing to add service to ORF or PHF with AS having served SEA nonstop from CHS prior to B6 adding CHS-LAX nonstop service along with ORF/PHF being one of the top remaining U.S. markets without AS service.


As would probably launch ORF/PHF to SAN before SEA. At least SAN has a navy/navy contractor related traffic to somewhat support the route. Im not quite sure what travel-heavy economic ties there are between Hampton Roads and SEA.


There is actually Naval presence in the PNW with Bremerton Navy base and shipyard and Bangor Submarine base. That alone will not sustain that route (what kid of connection flow will go through SEA? That would mainly be a O/D run.) Same goes for SAN in my opinion (which would strictly be a strong O/D route). At least with LAX or SFO, those flights would be able to carry west coast connecting passengers that normally have to flow through ORD, DEN, DFW, IAH (morning and mid-day flights) to get out west.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:37 am

atcsundevil wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
They started PHF about two years before RIC. I seem to remember them serving ATL, MCO, and I think even PHL, LGA, and BOS, but don't quote me on that. I think at one point they had about five or six destinations going at once. When they opened RIC, it pulled a lot of that traffic away, so they ended up serving ATL, MCO, TPA, LGA, and BOS from there...maybe a couple of others. My memory is fuzzy, so some of the details may be off.


I think that’s it plus FLL.

I thought there was something in south Florida.. They had a genuinely decent little operation at PHF, all from the original concourse of about four or five gates. Presumably that's what People Express (3?) was trying to recreate — that, and scamming the airport authority.

AirTran shifting the majority of their ops to RIC and then WN pulling the plug after the merger is what sent the airport into a tailspin though. The airport was always great because of the simplicity, but then they grew too much to be simple anymore. Maybe they could try to go after Allegiant to see if they'd give it another shot...it seems like their kind of market.


You would thing Allegiant would be great there, but they already set up shop in ORF though. I would see SY and XP as wild cards that set up shop if they choose to do so. A poster made a suggestion about those two, I could see that happening for those two.
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 1106
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:46 am

flyfresno wrote:
Wow, that's quite a dropoff...and a huge over abundance of gates (I'd imagine AA uses two gates, maybe three max, and it appears the airport has nine jetways). Maybe put one of those concourses on a truck and move it to FAT, which has a major shortage of gate space (TIC, of course). In all seriousness though, I always thought that the Virginia Beach metro area was way too small for two airports. With ORF so close (and Richmond not too far the other way), it seems like a bit of a waste to have a terminal at PHF.



I am from Richmond and I can tell you taking the tunnel from Virginia Beach or Norfolk and literally driving right past ORF is a non-starter. In addition, ORF is well served by ULCC's. In the other direction RIC is on the east side of Richmond and is a booming airport in terms of growth and flight alternatives. Williamsburg/Newport News is 45 minutes away from RIC depending on traffic. Sorry to say PHF is kind of in no man's land.
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:49 am

What about Breeze (MX)?
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:18 am

SkyVoice wrote:
What about Breeze (MX)?


Negative, Breeze has a base set up a base and major ops in ORF.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8853
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:49 am

jplatts wrote:
bigb wrote:
AS will not start SEA to ORF non-stop….. Especially when ORF currently lacks any trans con flights to LAX or SFO currently…. Why in the earth would they start SEA-PHF? Not happening….


AS had operated CHS-SEA nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and SEA was the only city west of DEN that had nonstop service from CHS prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are some AS destinations in Alaska, British Columbia, Montana, and Washington State that have nonstop service to SEA on AS but no nonstop service to California.

AS might possibly be willing to add service to ORF or PHF with AS having served SEA nonstop from CHS prior to B6 adding CHS-LAX nonstop service along with ORF/PHF being one of the top remaining U.S. markets without AS service.


If it wasn’t for Boeing I can’t imagine any reason why AS would have attempted CHS-SEA. The Boeing connection makes CHS a bit of an outlier, and I think it’s fair to say that no other secondary East Coast market would have service to SEA before at least one airport in Cali. DL and AA are by far the largest network carriers in ORF, and maybe one of those two might try ORF-LAX next time the economy is at the top of the cycle, otherwise you can forget it.
 
User avatar
Wynnster8
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:55 am

jplatts wrote:
bigb wrote:
AS will not start SEA to ORF non-stop….. Especially when ORF currently lacks any trans con flights to LAX or SFO currently…. Why in the earth would they start SEA-PHF? Not happening….


AS had operated CHS-SEA nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and SEA was the only city west of DEN that had nonstop service from CHS prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are some AS destinations in Alaska, British Columbia, Montana, and Washington State that have nonstop service to SEA on AS but no nonstop service to California.

AS might possibly be willing to add service to ORF or PHF with AS having served SEA nonstop from CHS prior to B6 adding CHS-LAX nonstop service along with ORF/PHF being one of the top remaining U.S. markets without AS service.


The AS flight to CHS partially has to do with the Boeing plant in CHS.
 
NJFlyer27
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:19 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:57 am

I’m really surprised Allegiant didn’t try setting up shop here over Norfolk.

Williamsburg is much more of a leisure destination than Norfolk/Virginia Beach and would tie in well with other destinations they promote. They likely saw the Naval business as more opportunity.
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 1106
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:10 am

bigb wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
What about Breeze (MX)?


Negative, Breeze has a base set up a base and major ops in ORF.



Breeze is also 45 minutes up Interstate 64 at RIC.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:17 am

NJFlyer27 wrote:
I’m really surprised Allegiant didn’t try setting up shop here over Norfolk.

Williamsburg is much more of a leisure destination than Norfolk/Virginia Beach and would tie in well with other destinations they promote. They likely saw the Naval business as more opportunity.


How so? Most of the attractions (Oceanfront, Outter Banks) that bring tourists to the area are on the ORF side.
 
nkops
Posts: 2306
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:55 pm

I could see XP maybe doing a HVN-MCO-PHF-MCO-HVN kind of run, maybe the same with FLL or TPA
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:48 pm

Here's a pretty good article that sums up the history of the three airports serving the region...

http://www.virginiaplaces.org/transport ... roads.html
 
tichydev
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:33 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:26 pm

I see PHF's best bet for real growth being Avelo. (besides United Express or Delta Connection returning) Avelo is doing very well at HVN and will undoubtedly focus their growth there for a while but, eventually they're going to look at more markets on the East Coast. PHF does offer ULCC/LCC airlines a chance to compete with Breeze's operation at ORF.

Avelo so far is proving to be a nice step up from traditional ULCCs and they're very well liked thus far in the greater HVN area. While PHF's checkered past of failed leisure service south is going to be concerning to a carrier like them the numbers may be there (thinking much the same about SBY).

Wildcard? Contour? Maybe something to watch as they grow, unfortunately right now none of their bases really make sense for PHF besides maybe BNA if there is enough leisure market there. Perhaps if they make a return to Florida, a 30 seat RJ would be what PHF needs to make it work?
 
southernav
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:52 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:57 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
southernav wrote:
Where did Air Tran serve PHF from?

They started PHF about two years before RIC. I seem to remember them serving ATL, MCO, and I think even PHL, LGA, and BOS, but don't quote me on that. I think at one point they had about five or six destinations going at once. When they opened RIC, it pulled a lot of that traffic away, so they ended up serving ATL, MCO, TPA, LGA, and BOS from there...maybe a couple of others. My memory is fuzzy, so some of the details may be off.


Thanks!
 
NJFlyer27
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:19 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:24 pm

bigb wrote:
NJFlyer27 wrote:
I’m really surprised Allegiant didn’t try setting up shop here over Norfolk.

Williamsburg is much more of a leisure destination than Norfolk/Virginia Beach and would tie in well with other destinations they promote. They likely saw the Naval business as more opportunity.


How so? Most of the attractions (Oceanfront, Outter Banks) that bring tourists to the area are on the ORF side.


Yes, that is true.

However, I believe Williamsburg on its own is a destination Allegiant would promote like Savannah and Asheville.

PHF and ORF could be compared to the Tampa and St. Pete/Clearwater airports. Allegiant flies and promotes the St. Pete/Clearwater area rather than Tampa. It would be a similar relationship if Allegiant operated out of PHF.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:48 pm

NJFlyer27 wrote:
bigb wrote:
NJFlyer27 wrote:
I’m really surprised Allegiant didn’t try setting up shop here over Norfolk.

Williamsburg is much more of a leisure destination than Norfolk/Virginia Beach and would tie in well with other destinations they promote. They likely saw the Naval business as more opportunity.


How so? Most of the attractions (Oceanfront, Outter Banks) that bring tourists to the area are on the ORF side.


Yes, that is true.

However, I believe Williamsburg on its own is a destination Allegiant would promote like Savannah and Asheville.

PHF and ORF could be compared to the Tampa and St. Pete/Clearwater airports. Allegiant flies and promotes the St. Pete/Clearwater area rather than Tampa. It would be a similar relationship if Allegiant operated out of PHF.


Williamsburg/Hampton Roads area can’t really be compared to Tampa/Saint Pete/Clearwater. That’s a big stretch, no offense lol.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:27 pm

Having grown up on the Peninsula, on the ghetto side, having learned to fly at PHF, and having loved Williamsburg and Gloucester street all my life, I have to say Williamsburg has little to offer that is worth people buying an airline ticket to go see. The percentage of the population that celebrates American history is being widdled down fast.

The economic power of the area is flat.

It's just one large area living on government pay.
 
hpff
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:20 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:23 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Wow, that's quite a dropoff...and a huge over abundance of gates (I'd imagine AA uses two gates, maybe three max, and it appears the airport has nine jetways). Maybe put one of those concourses on a truck and move it to FAT, which has a major shortage of gate space (TIC, of course). In all seriousness though, I always thought that the Virginia Beach metro area was way too small for two airports. With ORF so close (and Richmond not too far the other way), it seems like a bit of a waste to have a terminal at PHF.


I am from Richmond and I can tell you taking the tunnel from Virginia Beach or Norfolk and literally driving right past ORF is a non-starter. In addition, ORF is well served by ULCC's. In the other direction RIC is on the east side of Richmond and is a booming airport in terms of growth and flight alternatives. Williamsburg/Newport News is 45 minutes away from RIC depending on traffic. Sorry to say PHF is kind of in no man's land.


I mean, PHF serves a purpose - it's the most convenient airport for about 300,000 people, which isn't nothing. RIC is an hour and ORF could be anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour depending on the level of tunnel traffic. If you haven't been to the region, the connectivity between Newport News and Norfolk is terrible, there are only eight lanes of traffic total over two bridges (the US17 bridge barely counts), the bridge-tunnels are four and five miles long, and one of the bridge-tunnels takes you very far out of the way for most things in the region, including the airport.

The airport's heyday sort of makes sense - two lanes to RIC, which had some of the highest fares in the country a decade ago, terrible tunnel traffic to ORF, and DL trying to put pressure on AirTran - only one of those things is true today, and there's a plan in place to try and expand the tunnel by 2025. If this happens it's not impossible PHF could lose its remaining AA service. I think it'd still be unlikely the airport would shutter completely - there's just enough of a geographical niche for the airport to exist - but I don't think its level of service could be deemed incorrect. While the terminal has a decent number of jetways, it really isn't that big.

Williamsburg is also lovely (and not unpopular) but I believe it's mostly a driving destination.
 
bigb
Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:28 pm

hpff wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Wow, that's quite a dropoff...and a huge over abundance of gates (I'd imagine AA uses two gates, maybe three max, and it appears the airport has nine jetways). Maybe put one of those concourses on a truck and move it to FAT, which has a major shortage of gate space (TIC, of course). In all seriousness though, I always thought that the Virginia Beach metro area was way too small for two airports. With ORF so close (and Richmond not too far the other way), it seems like a bit of a waste to have a terminal at PHF.


I am from Richmond and I can tell you taking the tunnel from Virginia Beach or Norfolk and literally driving right past ORF is a non-starter. In addition, ORF is well served by ULCC's. In the other direction RIC is on the east side of Richmond and is a booming airport in terms of growth and flight alternatives. Williamsburg/Newport News is 45 minutes away from RIC depending on traffic. Sorry to say PHF is kind of in no man's land.


I mean, PHF serves a purpose - it's the most convenient airport for about 300,000 people, which isn't nothing. RIC is an hour and ORF could be anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour depending on the level of tunnel traffic. If you haven't been to the region, the connectivity between Newport News and Norfolk is terrible, there are only eight lanes of traffic total over two bridges (the US17 bridge barely counts), the bridge-tunnels are four and five miles long, and one of the bridge-tunnels takes you very far out of the way for most things in the region, including the airport.

The airport's heyday sort of makes sense - two lanes to RIC, which had some of the highest fares in the country a decade ago, terrible tunnel traffic to ORF, and DL trying to put pressure on AirTran - only one of those things is true today, and there's a plan in place to try and expand the tunnel by 2025. If this happens it's not impossible PHF could lose its remaining AA service. I think it'd still be unlikely the airport would shutter completely - there's just enough of a geographical niche for the airport to exist - but I don't think its level of service could be deemed incorrect. While the terminal has a decent number of jetways, it really isn't that big.

Williamsburg is also lovely (and not unpopular) but I believe it's mostly a driving destination.


300,000 is really nothing in the grand scheme things to be honest and won’t support a airport alone. I understand that crossing the bridge tunnels can be horrible. However there are many major cities with bigger traffic issues that this is served with a single airport as well.

The airport saw service as a means for cheap entry into the region with DL and AA coming in for competition. I’ll argue those PHF flights were great for two two things really, give AA and DL rebooking options for over sold flights out of ORF and provide backup options for non-rev stand by travel. Lol
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:38 pm

bigb wrote:
hpff wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

I am from Richmond and I can tell you taking the tunnel from Virginia Beach or Norfolk and literally driving right past ORF is a non-starter. In addition, ORF is well served by ULCC's. In the other direction RIC is on the east side of Richmond and is a booming airport in terms of growth and flight alternatives. Williamsburg/Newport News is 45 minutes away from RIC depending on traffic. Sorry to say PHF is kind of in no man's land.


I mean, PHF serves a purpose - it's the most convenient airport for about 300,000 people, which isn't nothing. RIC is an hour and ORF could be anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour depending on the level of tunnel traffic. If you haven't been to the region, the connectivity between Newport News and Norfolk is terrible, there are only eight lanes of traffic total over two bridges (the US17 bridge barely counts), the bridge-tunnels are four and five miles long, and one of the bridge-tunnels takes you very far out of the way for most things in the region, including the airport.

The airport's heyday sort of makes sense - two lanes to RIC, which had some of the highest fares in the country a decade ago, terrible tunnel traffic to ORF, and DL trying to put pressure on AirTran - only one of those things is true today, and there's a plan in place to try and expand the tunnel by 2025. If this happens it's not impossible PHF could lose its remaining AA service. I think it'd still be unlikely the airport would shutter completely - there's just enough of a geographical niche for the airport to exist - but I don't think its level of service could be deemed incorrect. While the terminal has a decent number of jetways, it really isn't that big.

Williamsburg is also lovely (and not unpopular) but I believe it's mostly a driving destination.


300,000 is really nothing in the grand scheme things to be honest and won’t support a airport alone. I understand that crossing the bridge tunnels can be horrible. However there are many major cities with bigger traffic issues that this is served with a single airport as well.

The airport saw service as a means for cheap entry into the region with DL and AA coming in for competition. I’ll argue those PHF flights were great for two two things really, give AA and DL rebooking options for over sold flights out of ORF and provide backup options for non-rev stand by travel. Lol


Let's compare the Virginia Beach / Norfolk / Newport News metro area to a much larger one - Saint Louis, which also has two airports. Mid America airport has struggled, and has only really made it as a LCC only airport (Allegiant is the only carrier) - no legacy has really made a serious run at it because STL is just too close (even being all the way on the other side of the metro and in a different state). That sort of thing could happen with PHF, where a LCC works out, sure, but what other metro area that's even close in population to ORF/PHF has two airports that both have legacy carriers?

With regional consolidation ramping up at the legacy carriers, IMO, it's only a matter of time before AA consolidates PHF service into ORF.
 
hpff
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:20 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:58 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Let's compare the Virginia Beach / Norfolk / Newport News metro area to a much larger one - Saint Louis, which also has two airports. Mid America airport has struggled, and has only really made it as a LCC only airport (Allegiant is the only carrier) - no legacy has really made a serious run at it because STL is just too close (even being all the way on the other side of the metro and in a different state). That sort of thing could happen with PHF, where a LCC works out, sure, but what other metro area that's even close in population to ORF/PHF has two airports that both have legacy carriers?


St Louis is a terrible comparison because the secondary airport's really in the middle of nowhere, Lambert's fairly centrally located and Mid America's reason for existence was obsolete by the time it opened (overcrowding at Lambert). A better comparison because of the geographic constraints would be TPA/PIE, and there are several other instances of smaller relatively nearby airports both maintaining service, such as Harlingen/Brownsville or Appleton/Green Bay.

AA has served the airport to CLT and PHL since the days of US Airways Express, with the unique geography at play I think this is probably a correct level of support unless someone adds an ATL flight.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: What will PHF do with all that gate space

Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:17 am

hpff wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Let's compare the Virginia Beach / Norfolk / Newport News metro area to a much larger one - Saint Louis, which also has two airports. Mid America airport has struggled, and has only really made it as a LCC only airport (Allegiant is the only carrier) - no legacy has really made a serious run at it because STL is just too close (even being all the way on the other side of the metro and in a different state). That sort of thing could happen with PHF, where a LCC works out, sure, but what other metro area that's even close in population to ORF/PHF has two airports that both have legacy carriers?


St Louis is a terrible comparison because the secondary airport's really in the middle of nowhere, Lambert's fairly centrally located and Mid America's reason for existence was obsolete by the time it opened (overcrowding at Lambert). A better comparison because of the geographic constraints would be TPA/PIE, and there are several other instances of smaller relatively nearby airports both maintaining service, such as Harlingen/Brownsville or Appleton/Green Bay.

AA has served the airport to CLT and PHL since the days of US Airways Express, with the unique geography at play I think this is probably a correct level of support unless someone adds an ATL flight.


Tampa is a huge metro, double the size of Norfolk. It's also a major vacation destination. Not even close to being a valid comparison.

I'll admit I always thought it was extremely strange that GRB and ATW don't share an airport...something halfway between the two cities would likely have 3-4 more destinations and a couple more airline options than the two separately. It's really a huge missed opportunity for them...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos