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x1234
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NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:58 pm

With the NW/DL alliance staring in 1993 how often was DTW-AMS served back then? Even pre-COVID it was 4x daily ensuring the large TATL network volume to Europe, India, Africa and the Middle East.
 
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keesje
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:15 pm

I remember 4 flights a day, seasonal 5 times. Mostly operated by NWA DC10's at that time, later A333s. High load factors and cargo till MTOW.
Twice to the Memphis hubs and I believe 3x to Minneapolis hubs. A JV on all Transatlantic and onward connections. Very succesfull codesharing because all costs en benefit on the fligts were shared in the JV. Everybody was very committed and cooperation was close. Much closer than Star (LH & UA) and Oneworld (BA & AA), where partners were in reality still fighting for the premium passengers between them.
 
drdisque
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:33 am

NW B744s and KL B743s and B744s also routinely appeared on the route.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:39 am

I cannot recall DTW-AMS having fewer than four frequencies, although the equipment and operating carrier varied.



Worldwide service, worldwide reliability.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:21 am

It was (and is?) a strong joint venture that lasted decades. They shared the “World business class” seat product with the goal to be the most consistent US and European product. For its time, it provided remarkable 1-stop and 2-stop connections with near perfect reliability. We take this for granted today, but back then, an interline connection between carriers was clunky and risky. And you could be stranded on another continent. This was a dream.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:57 am

The route was typically at 4x daily, occasionally going to 5x during peak summer, and occasionally going to 3x daily during deep winter (in the mid 2000s).
NW equipment was DC-10-30, B742, B744, then A330. One brief summer the 5th daily seasonal was a B752 (75A) during the brief 757 TATL experiment.

KLM typically operated one of the flights up through the mid-2000s. KLM equipment was B743, B744, and MD-11. (did KLM ever use the 763 to DTW?)
 
Clipper73
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:11 am

When the route first started it was operated with a single 747-300 flight. After that KLM went double daily on the route one 747 and one MD11 and 767. After that Northwest started operating the route along with KLM and it was 4 daily from then on. I believe the largest capacity on the route was 1 X NW D10 2 X NW 744 1X KL744 and 1 X MD11 one summer in the early 2000s.
 
factsonly
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:16 am

Clipper73 wrote:
When the route first started it was operated with a single 747-300 flight. After that KLM went double daily on the route one 747 and one MD11 and 767. After that Northwest started operating the route along with KLM and it was 4 daily from then on. I believe the largest capacity on the route was 1 X NW D10 2 X NW 744 1X KL744 and 1 X MD11 one summer in the early 2000s.


Before KL/NW the route DTW-AMS was operated by PanAm.

KLM inaugurated AMS-DTW in 1992 with B747 daily.
NW inaugurated the 2nd daily service in 1995 with B747.

The following information is taken from airline timetables:

- 1975: DTW 19.10 - AMS 11.55 PA54 B747 daily
- 1991: DTW 18.25 - AMS 10.05 PA54 1 stop daily

- 1992 -1994: DTW 21.00 - AMS 10.25 KL616 non-stop B747 daily - inaugurated June 1st.1992
- 1992: DTW 21.30 - AMS 10.55 KL616 non-stop B747 6x weekly in winter, from winter 1993 daily

- 1995: DTW 17.05 - AMS 06.40 NW68 non-stop B747 daily inaugural NW May 2, 1995, in winter operated as KL616 non-stop M11 daily
- 1995: DTW 22.10 - AMS 11.35 KL618 non-stop B747 daily summer and winter
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:54 pm

The NW/KLM alliance was first announced in 1989, but began in 1993.
 
dfwfanboy
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:11 pm

keesje wrote:
Very succesfull codesharing because all costs en benefit on the fligts were shared in the JV. Everybody was very committed and cooperation was close. Much closer than Star (LH & UA) and Oneworld (BA & AA), where partners were in reality still fighting for the premium passengers between them.


Interesting info, but irrelevant considering the topic here is 1993. Star alliance and oneworld didn’t exist and BA was partnering with US Airways at the time.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:04 pm

Image

https://simpleflying.com/northwest-dc-10-klm-livery/

This alliance was so strong that they painted a DC-10 in mixed colors NW/KL
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:13 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Image

https://simpleflying.com/northwest-dc-10-klm-livery/

This alliance was so strong that they painted a DC-10 in mixed colors NW/KL



LIKE

wish we had that function!

One of the few lasting alliances that worked beautifully for both carriers
 
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airzim
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:41 am

jfklganyc wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Image

https://simpleflying.com/northwest-dc-10-klm-livery/

This alliance was so strong that they painted a DC-10 in mixed colors NW/KL



LIKE

wish we had that function!

One of the few lasting alliances that worked beautifully for both carriers


Not according to this article. It appears it wasn't all daisies and roses.

https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune ... 24/213761/

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/30/busi ... lines.html

I'm sure that KL owned 20% of NW didn't hurt either.

FYI, AZ and CO also painted a DC-10 with each others respective paint on either side, but they were hardly in a strong alliance.

 
N47
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:45 am

FCOTSTW wrote:
Image

https://simpleflying.com/northwest-dc-10-klm-livery/

This alliance was so strong that they painted a DC-10 in mixed colors NW/KL


This is exactly what i was thinking of when i opened this thread. For some reason i remember this livery being fully klm on the one side not just the front half it seems that i did not remember correctly.

It seemed like the nw/kl partnership lasted for a while i remember flying NW in 2005 from ewr to ams and i was suprised to see the amount of nw metal at ams. I remember the service being exceptional as well.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:09 am

KLM inaugurated non-stop DTW service on January 7th 1992. Until 1995, the KLM-operated flight was the only DTW-AMS non-stop flight offered by either carrier. The second DTW-AMS nonstop initiated was NW68 early in 1995.

keesje wrote:
I remember 4 flights a day, seasonal 5 times. Mostly operated by NWA DC10's at that time, later A333s. High load factors and cargo till MTOW.
Twice to the Memphis hubs and I believe 3x to Minneapolis hubs. A JV on all Transatlantic and onward connections. Very succesfull codesharing because all costs en benefit on the fligts were shared in the JV. Everybody was very committed and cooperation was close. Much closer than Star (LH & UA) and Oneworld (BA & AA), where partners were in reality still fighting for the premium passengers between them.


While your memory of the number of daily operations at Detroit is somewhat accurate, the information you present is factually incorrect. Furthermore, there is much you do not grasp of the financial peculiarities of the NWA/KLM "Joint Venture" (a topic for a different discussion). NWA/KLM were engaged in some heavy legal battles regarding this Joint Venture, as was the DOT and DOJ. The "Joint Venture" was renegotiated and modified many times. Also, DTW-AMS did *not always* have "high load factors and cargo till MTOW" as you suggest. Your recollection of service levels to Memphis and Minneapolis is incorrect given the time frame the original poster references. Facts will always prevail over conjecture.

Northwest initiated service to Amsterdam on June 1st 1988 from BOSTON. Progressively, Northwest added service to the following cities utilizing Northwest metal (in sequential order): Minneapolis (1991), Detroit (1995) Washington Dulles, JFK and EWR (1996), Delhi & Bombay (1997), Philadelphia, Seattle and Miami (1998) and Memphis (2004). Only BOS, PHL and SEA were exclusive NW metal routes; service to all other cities rotated between the two carriers based upon operational necessity. (Disclaimer: the years indicated in this list are from memory and not representative of if or when KLM initiated service..only referencing NWA Red Tail metal)

factsonly wrote:
Clipper73 wrote:
NW inaugurated the 2nd daily service in 1995 with B747.


Incorrect. The first NW metal deployed on DTW-AMS was a DC-10 operating Flight #68.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: NW/KL alliance in 1993 and DTW-AMS history

Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:37 pm

keesje wrote:
I remember 4 flights a day, seasonal 5 times. Mostly operated by NWA DC10's at that time, later A333s. High load factors and cargo till MTOW.
Twice to the Memphis hubs and I believe 3x to Minneapolis hubs. A JV on all Transatlantic and onward connections. Very succesfull codesharing because all costs en benefit on the fligts were shared in the JV. Everybody was very committed and cooperation was close. Much closer than Star (LH & UA) and Oneworld (BA & AA), where partners were in reality still fighting for the premium passengers between them.


From a time line perspective, the launch of NW/KL does not align with LH and UA or BA and AA. For one, in the early 1990s, BA was cooperating with US, where some US 767s were painted in full BA Landor livery. UA and LH and AA and BA came later. And NW operated DC10s and 747-200s/400s on TATL before the A333s, which only began deliveries a full decade after the NW/KL alliance began. A330s began deliveries at NW in 2003.

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