DL201 diverts to SJU

LimaFoxTango · Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:14 am

Recently there was a thread about DL201 (JNB-ATL) diverting to BOS (sorry, couldn't find it to reference it here). Anyways, several people asked why not divert to SJU as it is the closest US port on the route. Many responded perhaps its easier to get an A350 crew to BOS than SJU. Well today, 03Dec, DL201 diverts to SJU! Guess it wasn't so difficult after all.

Anyone knows why DL201 diverts soo often? Is the A350 incapable of doing this route?

Boof02671 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:19 am

The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

F27500 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:39 am

Boof02671 wrote:
The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

So .. scheduling the wrong plane for the mission, then?

Boof02671 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:40 am

F27500 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

So .. scheduling the wrong plane for the mission, then?

They don’t have a plane that has that capability

AECM · Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:42 am

Boof02671 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

So .. scheduling the wrong plane for the mission, then?

They don’t have a plane that has that capability

Even the B77L that was the most capable plane on the route had to do fuel stops sometimes. In the end it depends on the performance vs payload vs weather but it would be interesting to know the average payload that DL201 is flying on the route.

novarupta · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:05 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
Recently there was a thread about DL201 (JNB-ATL) diverting to BOS (sorry, couldn't find it to reference it here). Anyways, several people asked why not divert to SJU as it is the closest US port on the route. Many responded perhaps its easier to get an A350 crew to BOS than SJU. Well today, 03Dec, DL201 diverts to SJU! Guess it wasn't so difficult after all.

Anyone knows why DL201 diverts soo often? Is the A350 incapable of doing this route?

DAL201 would often make a stop in Accra as well during the winter months due to headwinds (with the 777-200LR) - there is a thread over on the Tech-Ops side about this.

Aaron747 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:12 pm

F27500 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

So .. scheduling the wrong plane for the mission, then?

Nah, it's called winter. The headwinds are mighty strong.

Cubsrule · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

So .. scheduling the wrong plane for the mission, then?

Nah, it's called winter. The headwinds are mighty strong.

Winter and, I imagine, lots of folks trying to get out of South Africa due to Omicron.

Ziyulu · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:28 pm

Would the old 744s have enough range in this situation?

SESGDL · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:36 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Would the old 744s have enough range in this situation?

The A359 has a considerably better range than the 744. And even if it didn’t, the fuel savings would far outweigh any operational advantages that the 744 has.

Jeremy

dfwfanboy · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:38 pm

It would appear Delta actually knew the plane could only do CPT-ATL given the original schedule, not JNB-ATL, but cancelled the CPT-ATL portion of the flight regardless knowing they don't have the plane to consistently make JNB-ATL nonstop in winter.

JohanTally · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:40 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Would the old 744s have enough range in this situation?

No while quads would have better takeoff performance at hot and high the DL 744s wouldn't of had the range. The 744ER would be closer but still may come up short with a full load. DL knew that the 359 wasn't the right aircraft for the mission but the cost saving measure of eliminating a fleet superceded this flights winter performance. Even the 77L occasionally made tech stops but most likely at a lower frequency than the 359 will.

JohanTally · Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:42 pm

dfwfanboy wrote:
It would appear Delta actually knew the plane could only do CPT-ATL given the original schedule, not JNB-ATL, but cancelled the CPT-ATL portion of the flight regardless knowing they don't have the plane to consistently make JNB-ATL nonstop in winter.

I believe the South African Government forced DL to eliminate the CPT stopover.

ContinentalEWR · Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:05 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Would the old 744s have enough range in this situation?

No. The 747s made a fuel stop on the westbound leg on an island (those operated by SAA). DL didn't operate any 747s to JNB.

ContinentalEWR · Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:09 pm

The A350 isn't necessarily the wrong plane for JNB-ATL but it is the only plane DL has to keep this route running. The 777-200LRs were all exited from the fleet as we all know though at times, even if rarely, and almost always in winter, they too diverted, though that was infrequent. There is no other plane DL has to keep this route running or suspend it for a while. It will depend on demand and any operational costs DL is incurring for more frequent diversions on the westbound leg. The omicron variant is a factor, yes, but it is now looking like it has not originated necessarily in South Africa and may very well have been present elsewhere since October.

CaptSkibi · Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:27 pm

Here's the flight that diverted to BOS (a 19:20 flight):
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL201/history/20211127/2105Z/FAOR/KBOS

Looks like it took a more northerly route. That's a long flight to still take a diversion.

Here's the diversion to SJU/TJSJ (14:06):
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL201/history/20211202/2105Z/FAOR/TJSJ

airbazar · Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:16 pm

CaptSkibi wrote:
Here's the flight that diverted to BOS (a 19:20 flight):
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL201/history/20211127/2105Z/FAOR/KBOS

Looks like it took a more northerly route. That's a long flight to still take a diversion.

Here's the diversion to SJU/TJSJ (14:06):
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL201/history/20211202/2105Z/FAOR/TJSJ

The flightaware data for the JNB-BOS flight is incorrect. It was only about 15 hours. The 19 hrs include the time it spent in BOS plus the flight to ATL.

x1234 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:25 pm

This just proves that at flight edge performance the B789 is better than the A359. UA's JNB-EWR is 1 hour shorter and hasn't had any diversions.

AECM · Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:32 pm

x1234 wrote:
This just proves that at flight edge performance the B789 is better than the A359. UA's JNB-EWR is 1 hour shorter and hasn't had any diversions.

Do you know the payload of each flights?

flyfresno · Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:43 pm

I believe there are multiple weight versions of the A359 (not including the ULR). The newer versions are 280 ton max gross, vs the variant that Delta first received orders of, which is only 275 ton. The question seems to be how many (if any) 280T A359s Delta has, and how many they are getting in the future.

JohanTally · Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:44 pm

Did this SJU diversion require a crew change like the BOS diversion? Regularly adding an extra crew for this flight could really threaten it's viability.

TWFlyGuy · Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:59 pm

Don't they risk a pax lawsuit at some point? If you knowingly schedule it as a non-stop and it isn't you could have an issue. I remember TWA had this issue with TLV-JFK when it's late stage 747's had to make fuel stops and passengers sued because it was so frequent.

DaveMetroD · Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:01 pm

Keep a fleet of aircraft because it's needed for one route?

Cubsrule · Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:06 pm

AECM wrote:
x1234 wrote:
This just proves that at flight edge performance the B789 is better than the A359. UA's JNB-EWR is 1 hour shorter and hasn't had any diversions.

Do you know the payload of each flights?

Not just that, but the logic doesn't follow. The fact that the 789 can make JNB-EWR consistently does not mean that it could make JNB-ATL (~500 miles longer) regularly. And likewise, the fact that the 359 has to stop X times on JNB-ATL doesn't mean that it would have to stop X times on JNB-EWR.

ABMUC · Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:09 pm

Does this also affect higher MTOW versions of the 350?

airbazar · Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:20 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AECM wrote:
x1234 wrote:
This just proves that at flight edge performance the B789 is better than the A359. UA's JNB-EWR is 1 hour shorter and hasn't had any diversions.

Do you know the payload of each flights?

Not just that, but the logic doesn't follow. The fact that the 789 can make JNB-EWR consistently does not mean that it could make JNB-ATL (~500 miles longer) regularly. And likewise, the fact that the 359 has to stop X times on JNB-ATL doesn't mean that it would have to stop X times on JNB-EWR.

Yeah, I don't get x1234's statement. If the 789 can operate a shorter route therefore the A359 should be ok on a longer route? That doesn't make any sense.
We also know nothing about the operating details of each. Is UA blocking seats, carrying less cargo, etc. Is DL forgoing the non-stop because at this exact moment in time there are extenuating circumstances, like large number of people trying to exit SA? These are not normal times.

DaveMetroD wrote:
Keep a fleet of aircraft because it's needed for one route?

They could always grab a couple of A346's from the desert since those have commonality with the A330 fleet

I think if that were to happen the Internet would definitely break.

IADCA · Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:33 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AECM wrote:
x1234 wrote:
This just proves that at flight edge performance the B789 is better than the A359. UA's JNB-EWR is 1 hour shorter and hasn't had any diversions.

Do you know the payload of each flights?

Not just that, but the logic doesn't follow. The fact that the 789 can make JNB-EWR consistently does not mean that it could make JNB-ATL (~500 miles longer) regularly. And likewise, the fact that the 359 has to stop X times on JNB-ATL doesn't mean that it would have to stop X times on JNB-EWR.

Yeah, two independent variables makes things rather challenging.

The interesting part of this to me is whether the stops being caused by normal winter winds might cause DL to eventually plan a tech stop on this regularly in the winter. If done right, couldn't passengers clear immigration during fueling/re-crew? (And query how bags would work, and if that would be a limiter.) If so, it might not be such an annoyance.

DN4CAAD · Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:49 pm

Maybe has been discussed before but would DL ever go for the A35K? Commonality and higher MTOW with regard to A359

global1 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 pm

I believe the higher MTOW variants arriving in 2022 are earmarked for ATL-JNB, LAX-SYD, and JFK-DEL, if reinstated. It is capable of servicing those missions with full passenger and cargo loads.

MIflyer12 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:15 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
Maybe has been discussed before but would DL ever go for the A35K? Commonality and higher MTOW with regard to A359

Ever? There are no 35Ks in the widebody purchase plans that call for 26 more A330-900s and 26 more A350-900s as of the 3Q21 10-Q filing.

https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 21-10Q.pdf

Somehow I think they have too few routes (seat count, or range) that would justify the 35K.

Didn't the BOS diversion thread have a post about upcoming 283T 359s to Delta? Is that likely to get the diversion rate back to what DL had with the 77Ls?

Sdmccray1984 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:10 pm

Ok with all factors considered, if I book a JNB-ATL-LAX will the technical stop time be factored in to my schedule at booking, or would I risk missing my flight home to LAX due to the technical stop? Do they warn me when I book the ticket? How does DL schedule that?

Cubsrule · Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:15 pm

IADCA wrote:
The interesting part of this to me is whether the stops being caused by normal winter winds might cause DL to eventually plan a tech stop on this regularly in the winter. If done right, couldn't passengers clear immigration during fueling/re-crew? (And query how bags would work, and if that would be a limiter.) If so, it might not be such an annoyance.

They were blocked in for a bit more than an hour and a half in SJU. That would be pretty tight for unloading, FIS, TSA, and reloading. Honestly in the mid- to late-morning, when this flight arrives, ATL FIS is empty enough that the connecting time isn't that much longer with having to clear there.

INFINITI329 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:16 pm

Wouldnt JFK be a better diversion point? Granted it's 97nm further than BOS from JNB but with JFK being DL hub is seems more suitable. On a second note, why not just operate the JNB flight out of JFK instead of ATL at least until the right equipment can operate ATL-JMB-ATL without a diversion?

32andBelow · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:02 pm

Lol some delta dispatcher must be an a.netter

32andBelow · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:03 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Wouldnt JFK be a better diversion point? Granted it's 97nm further than BOS from JNB but with JFK being DL hub is seems more suitable. On a second note, why not just operate the JNB flight out of JFK instead of ATL at least until the right equipment can operate ATL-JMB-ATL without a diversion?

why does it need a hub? It need a fuel truck

Gillbilly · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:04 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Don't they risk a pax lawsuit at some point? If you knowingly schedule it as a non-stop and it isn't you could have an issue. I remember TWA had this issue with TLV-JFK when it's late stage 747's had to make fuel stops and passengers sued because it was so frequent.

I think Air Transat and maybe Allegiant got investigated for something similar. Don't know if it led to lawsuits though.

n9801f · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:11 pm

F27500 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

So .. scheduling the wrong plane for the mission, then?

Yes, if true, disappointing. And I hope they deal with it in a way that sets a realistic expectation with customers.

Cubsrule · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:17 pm

n9801f wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The plane can’t take full fuel, passengers and cargo due to its limitations.

So .. scheduling the wrong plane for the mission, then?

Yes, if true, disappointing. And I hope they deal with it in a way that sets a realistic expectation with customers.

Again, the fact that they are having operational issues this week - in the winter and with Omicron anxiety on top - really is not probative of whether the 359 is, in general, an appropriate aircraft for the route.

tinpusher007 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:20 pm

x1234 wrote:
This just proves that at flight edge performance the B789 is better than the A359. UA's JNB-EWR is 1 hour shorter and hasn't had any diversions.

Not going to pile on about the logic of this statement, but one more point about UAs 789's is that they are rather premium heavy and only seat 257. By comparison, AA seats 285 and Turkish seats 300 in their 789's respectively. At DL our A359's seat 306 so UA's 789s likely have a performance advantage in the form of having to carry less weight of pax and their bags.

majano · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:24 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
Anyone knows why DL201 diverts soo often? Is the A350 incapable of doing this route?

How often has it diverted? Is it only two times in (x flights), or are there more diversions previously unreported? I am not challenging you, just don't have the data.

tinpusher007 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:24 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
Maybe has been discussed before but would DL ever go for the A35K? Commonality and higher MTOW with regard to A359

We have asked management many times and the answer every time has been no. The sweet spot seems to be right around 300 seats. Mgt views the A35K as an unnecessary sub fleet.

airzim · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:24 pm

Double standard time. Continental was vilified for flying 757s TATL from Europe with an occasional fuel stop due to winter winds. "misrepresentation of non stop service", "wrong plane", "shouldn't fly the route if they don't fly the right plane", etc. No comparable outrage for sainted Delta.

32andBelow · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:27 pm

Tech stops happen all the time. AS was stopping ASA139 last week due to winds. Then when it happens it usually happens several times in a row since the wind condition hasn’t changed yet. I don’t think this is much of a big deal

AECM · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:27 pm

majano wrote:
LimaFoxTango wrote:
Anyone knows why DL201 diverts soo often? Is the A350 incapable of doing this route?

How often has it diverted? Is it only two times in (x flights), or are there more diversions previously unreported? I am not challenging you, just don't have the data.

According to FR24 history DAL201 started on the 2/08/2021 and until today it had 2 x diversions (BOS and SJU).

LAX772LR · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:28 pm

flyfresno wrote:
I believe there are multiple weight versions of the A359 (not including the ULR). The newer versions are 280 ton max gross, vs the variant that Delta first received orders of, which is only 275 ton. The question seems to be how many (if any) 280T A359s Delta has, and how many they are getting in the future.

All of DL's factory A359s from N512DN up, are already at 280T.

Those before it were delivered at 268T, then subsequently upgraded to 275T. Airbus is working on a 283T upgrate, that will be available in 2yrs.

dfwfanboy wrote:
It would appear Delta actually knew the plane could only do CPT-ATL given the original schedule, not JNB-ATL, but cancelled the CPT-ATL portion of the flight regardless knowing they don't have the plane to consistently make JNB-ATL nonstop in winter.

x1234 wrote:
This just proves that at flight edge performance the B789 is better than the A359. UA's JNB-EWR is 1 hour shorter and hasn't had any diversions.

Y'all sure jump to some fairly declarative conclusions, on rather inconclusive evidence.........

MIflyer12 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:29 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Wouldnt JFK be a better diversion point? Granted it's 97nm further than BOS from JNB but with JFK being DL hub is seems more suitable. On a second note, why not just operate the JNB flight out of JFK instead of ATL at least until the right equipment can operate ATL-JMB-ATL without a diversion?

I advanced that idea in the other JNB-ATL diversion thread. Is JFK a DL A350 pilot base?

MIflyer12 · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:31 pm

airzim wrote:
Double standard time. Continental was vilified for flying 757s TATL from Europe with an occasional fuel stop due to winter winds. "misrepresentation of non stop service", "wrong plane", "shouldn't fly the route if they don't fly the right plane", etc. No comparable outrage for sainted Delta.

Hmm, I was asking about DL's priority for reliable ops in the other thread.

It took UA years - Y E A R S - to pull the 757s of the TATL routes where Gander/Goose Bay/Bangor stops were a bit too frequent. Let's see if DL proves as mentally slow and indifferent to passenger needs. UA under Smisek set a high bar for contempt.

majano · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:34 pm

AECM wrote:
majano wrote:
LimaFoxTango wrote:
Anyone knows why DL201 diverts soo often? Is the A350 incapable of doing this route?

How often has it diverted? Is it only two times in (x flights), or are there more diversions previously unreported? I am not challenging you, just don't have the data.

According to FR24 history DAL201 started on the 2/08/2021 and until today it had 2 x diversions (BOS and SJU).

Thank you. So, three times weekly flight for twenty weeks without a diversion and two diversions in week 21. This being the case then, the premise of the OP's topic is somewhat misleading.

airzim · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
airzim wrote:
Double standard time. Continental was vilified for flying 757s TATL from Europe with an occasional fuel stop due to winter winds. "misrepresentation of non stop service", "wrong plane", "shouldn't fly the route if they don't fly the right plane", etc. No comparable outrage for sainted Delta.

Hmm, I was asking about DL's priority for reliable ops in the other thread.

It took UA years - Y E A R S - to pull the 757s of the TATL routes where Gander/Goose Bay/Bangor stops were a bit too frequent. Let's see if DL proves as mentally slow and indifferent to passenger needs. UA under Smisek set a high bar for contempt.

Sorry I'm not up to speed on what everyone posts on every thread.

But you're incorrect in regards to CO/UA's operations TATL during the winter. Of course the data is now very old, but their diversion rate/planned stops was insignificant in terms of their operations. But your comments feed right into the narrative that these airlines are being disingenuous to their customers. They're not. "Mentally slow?" "Set the bar high for contempt?" Statements like this shows a disregard to facts. This is a rational business, either the flights make sense, or they don't.

That's really the point with DL, sometimes conditions require fuel stops. It happens.

n9801f · Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:52 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Again, the fact that they are having operational issues this week - in the winter and with Omicron anxiety on top - really is not probative of whether the 359 is, in general, an appropriate aircraft for the route.

Sure.

Though winter does happen every year.

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