Air Belgium to operate B747?

lesfalls · Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:11 pm

Seems that Air Belgium is looking for crew members with experience on the B747-400/747-8 according to the following link:

https://www.linkedin.com/mwlite/jobs/vi ... CH_ORGANIC

Wondering if this would be for passengers or for the typical 747 Cargo ops.

Your thoughts?

cedarjet · Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:15 pm

Plenty of passenger 747s lying around. Most likely this is for a cargo op but if the A340 works for KF, maybe the 747 will too. ACMI charters usually include lots of sitting around waiting for the phone to ring, so a low purchase price is arguably more important than low fuel burn

zkojq · Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:20 pm

Interesting. I guess CMA CGM is behind this? They have very deep pockets...

Maybe the two ex-Saudia 747-8Fs that were rumored to be going go Air Bridge Cargo are actually going to Air Belgium?

drdisque · Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:23 pm

I'm 90% certain that this is growing the freighter operation for CMA CGM

There's so few 748i's that they wouldn't bother asking about 748 experience if this was passenger.

aemoreira1981 · Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:49 pm

I have to wonder why CMA CGM doesn't buy Air Belgium outright. Definitely this sounds like a tender for someone else.

JannEejit · Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:37 pm

How much passenger business does Air Belgium actually do right now ?

tomcat · Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:57 pm

Well, it is clear. There is the following detail in the add:

ABOUT THE VACANCY...

Air Belgium is starting up operations on B747-8 Freighters beginning of next year

Boeing757100 · Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:48 pm

Someone who commented on another article theorized that maybe the 2 QR 748s are headed to Air belgium but I personally refute that since I think QR uses the 748Fs pretty often and no sign of retirement yet.

cedarjet · Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:07 pm

Even their Wikipedia page has two 747-8Fs coming

ACMIdriver · Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:22 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
Someone who commented on another article theorized that maybe the 2 QR 748s are headed to Air belgium but I personally refute that since I think QR uses the 748Fs pretty often and no sign of retirement yet.

I would also guess they will be getting the Qatari aircraft, I can't think of anyone else with an orphan fleet that would give up a 748F in this market.

Also don't forget Air Belgium is an ACMI airline, who's to say that the aircraft wouldn't just continue to fly on behalf of QR?

ojjunior · Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:13 am

ACMIdriver wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Someone who commented on another article theorized that maybe the 2 QR 748s are headed to Air belgium but I personally refute that since I think QR uses the 748Fs pretty often and no sign of retirement yet.

I would also guess they will be getting the Qatari aircraft, I can't think of anyone else with an orphan fleet that would give up a 748F in this market.

Also don't forget Air Belgium is an ACMI airline, who's to say that the aircraft wouldn't just continue to fly on behalf of QR?

ACMI stands for... ?

DN4CAAD · Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:21 am

ojjunior wrote:
ACMIdriver wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Someone who commented on another article theorized that maybe the 2 QR 748s are headed to Air belgium but I personally refute that since I think QR uses the 748Fs pretty often and no sign of retirement yet.

I would also guess they will be getting the Qatari aircraft, I can't think of anyone else with an orphan fleet that would give up a 748F in this market.

Also don't forget Air Belgium is an ACMI airline, who's to say that the aircraft wouldn't just continue to fly on behalf of QR?

ACMI stands for... ?

Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, and Insurance

Polot · Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:49 am

Saudia has two stored (for reasons not entirely
clear, at least to me) 748Fs: HZ-AI3 and HZ-AI4. I would expect those to be the frames before the Qatari ones.

CALMSP · Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:01 am

Polot wrote:
Saudia has two stored (for reasons not entirely
clear, at least to me) 748Fs: HZ-AI3 and HZ-AI4. I would expect those to be the frames before the Qatari ones.

yeah, I am still shocked that they didn't bring those back into the operation.

zkojq · Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:08 am

Given that it's roughly a decade since the first 747-8s were delivered, could it be that some leases are up for renewal? I highly doubt anyone would willingly give up a 747-8 in the current demand environment and not extend/renew a lease, but if there was some kind of tender process then it's not impossible for one of the big players to lose out to CMA CGM. :scratchchin:

Boeing757100 wrote:
Someone who commented on another article theorized that maybe the 2 QR 748s are headed to Air belgium but I personally refute that since I think QR uses the 748Fs pretty often and no sign of retirement yet.

Weren't the QR 747-8Fs acquired at reasonably short notice inorder to help supply food to Qatar when the blockade was causing shortages? With the blockade ended, maybe they're no longer necessary (though I find that hard to believe giventhe currentworldwide air freight situation)?

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... eing-747-8

Boavida · Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:07 pm

Looking good

https://twitter.com/ivanconinx/status/1 ... 4214042625

Spacepope · Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:25 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Plenty of passenger 747s lying around. Most likely this is for a cargo op but if the A340 works for KF, maybe the 747 will too. ACMI charters usually include lots of sitting around waiting for the phone to ring, so a low purchase price is arguably more important than low fuel burn

Definitely for cargo ops, and no passenger 748s to be picked up right now.

Combine that with China banning Preighter ops after the new year.... pax is a no-go

Either they are going to get contracted by the Chinese to operate the former Saudia 748Fs, or maybe an operator like Silk Way are planning to dispose of a few?

na · Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:53 pm

Boavida wrote:
Looking good

https://twitter.com/ivanconinx/status/1 ... 4214042625

It very likely won't look like this!

FCOTSTW · Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:20 pm

Just read the posting:

Air Belgium is starting up operations on B747-8 Freighters beginning of next year and are looking for flight crew members

leleko747 · Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:38 pm

Boavida wrote:
Looking good

https://twitter.com/ivanconinx/status/1 ... 4214042625

If this really happen... will be one of the most beautiful B747-8F out there.
That black antiglare shield (area beneath the cockpit windows) is fantastic! :bouncy:

jimmy9irons · Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:19 pm

Why is China banning preighter ops?

Boeing757100 · Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:37 pm

zkojq wrote:
Given that it's roughly a decade since the first 747-8s were delivered, could it be that some leases are up for renewal? I highly doubt anyone would willingly give up a 747-8 in the current demand environment and not extend/renew a lease, but if there was some kind of tender process then it's not impossible for one of the big players to lose out to CMA CGM.

Boeing757100 wrote:
Someone who commented on another article theorized that maybe the 2 QR 748s are headed to Air belgium but I personally refute that since I think QR uses the 748Fs pretty often and no sign of retirement yet.

Weren't the QR 747-8Fs acquired at reasonably short notice inorder to help supply food to Qatar when the blockade was causing shortages? With the blockade ended, maybe they're no longer necessary (though I find that hard to believe giventhe currentworldwide air freight situation)?

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... eing-747-8

I guess but didnt AAB eventually grow on to the 748F and even wanted a third?
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/carrier ... for-777fs/

rbavfan · Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:38 pm

leleko747 wrote:
Boavida wrote:
Looking good

https://twitter.com/ivanconinx/status/1 ... 4214042625

If this really happen... will be one of the most beautiful B747-8F out there.
That black antiglare shield (area beneath the cockpit windows) is fantastic!

747's had the black triangle from near day 1. TWA.

LTEN11 · Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:41 am

leleko747 wrote:
Boavida wrote:
Looking good

https://twitter.com/ivanconinx/status/1 ... 4214042625

If this really happen... will be one of the most beautiful B747-8F out there.
That black antiglare shield (area beneath the cockpit windows) is fantastic!

In all seriousness, there isn't a bad looking 748, but this would look very nice indeed.

Spacepope · Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:53 am

jimmy9irons wrote:
Why is China banning preighter ops?

Because bulk loading the main deck is a time consuming goat rope

airsmiles · Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:21 am

Spacepope wrote:
jimmy9irons wrote:
Why is China banning preighter ops?

Because bulk loading the main deck is a time consuming goat rope

Since when is time-consuming a reason to stop operations?

LTEN11 · Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:37 am

airsmiles wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
jimmy9irons wrote:
Why is China banning preighter ops?

Because bulk loading the main deck is a time consuming goat rope

Since when is time-consuming a reason to stop operations?

I think part of it was the time an aircraft takes up gate space and the amount of staff needed too be used to load/unload the aircraft.

MRYapproach · Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:00 am

LTEN11 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Because bulk loading the main deck is a time consuming goat rope

Since when is time-consuming a reason to stop operations?

I think part of it was the time an aircraft takes up gate space and the amount of staff needed too be used to load/unload the aircraft.

Can they really be maxing out gate space for widebodies if they still allow only one flight per week per city per airline?

LTEN11 · Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:56 am

MRYapproach wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:

Since when is time-consuming a reason to stop operations?

I think part of it was the time an aircraft takes up gate space and the amount of staff needed too be used to load/unload the aircraft.

Can they really be maxing out gate space for widebodies if they still allow only one flight per week per city per airline?

I can't answer that, but there is a lot more than a single flight a week going into most places per airline, especially the Chinese airlines. There may only be a single flight per week carrying passengers.

WayexTDI · Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:01 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Because bulk loading the main deck is a time consuming goat rope

Since when is time-consuming a reason to stop operations?

I think part of it was the time an aircraft takes up gate space and the amount of staff needed too be used to load/unload the aircraft.

Are they really loaded/unloaded at the gate? That'd be silly since the plane is in cargo operation, not pax operation.
As far as the staff needed, that's on the airline, not on the airport.

skipness1E · Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:19 pm

Air China has 4-5 daily preighters into LHR alone. That's before we get to Hainan, China Southern, China Eastern and Xiamen Air who are all common. What's taking up THAT slack?

airsmiles · Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:36 pm

Spacepope wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:

I think part of it was the time an aircraft takes up gate space and the amount of staff needed too be used to load/unload the aircraft.

Are they really loaded/unloaded at the gate? That'd be silly since the plane is in cargo operation, not pax operation.
As far as the staff needed, that's on the airline, not on the airport.

The aircraft takes up too much time and space on the ground at the airport, inhibiting operations. Honestly it's silly debating this, since the gov already made its decision (we covered this a while back when it was announced in the excellent air cargo thread). I suppose you personally could take it up with the Chinese government though, I wish you luck in your efforts.

Does this affect every Chinese airport and all operators or just the busiest airports and operators with a high number of flights into China? I haven’t seen this decision reported elsewhere but, there again, I wasn’t particularly looking for it.

airsmiles · Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:39 pm

Spacepope wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:

I think part of it was the time an aircraft takes up gate space and the amount of staff needed too be used to load/unload the aircraft.

Are they really loaded/unloaded at the gate? That'd be silly since the plane is in cargo operation, not pax operation.
As far as the staff needed, that's on the airline, not on the airport.

The aircraft takes up too much time and space on the ground at the airport, inhibiting operations. Honestly it's silly debating this, since the gov already made its decision (we covered this a while back when it was announced in the excellent air cargo thread). I suppose you personally could take it up with the Chinese government though, I wish you luck in your efforts.

Does this affect all Chinese airports and all operators or just the busiest airports and airlines with many flights into China?

Spacepope · Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:42 pm

airsmiles wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Are they really loaded/unloaded at the gate? That'd be silly since the plane is in cargo operation, not pax operation.
As far as the staff needed, that's on the airline, not on the airport.

The aircraft takes up too much time and space on the ground at the airport, inhibiting operations. Honestly it's silly debating this, since the gov already made its decision (we covered this a while back when it was announced in the excellent air cargo thread). I suppose you personally could take it up with the Chinese government though, I wish you luck in your efforts.

Does this affect every Chinese airport and all operators or just the busiest airports and operators with a high number of flights into China? I haven’t seen this decision reported elsewhere but, there again, I wasn’t particularly looking for it.

Read for yourself. It's going to put a lot of pressure on belly freight (you can still operate pax airliners in as belly freight only).

https://theloadstar.com/china-cabin-car ... ght-rates/

airsmiles · Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:51 pm

Spacepope wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

The aircraft takes up too much time and space on the ground at the airport, inhibiting operations. Honestly it's silly debating this, since the gov already made its decision (we covered this a while back when it was announced in the excellent air cargo thread). I suppose you personally could take it up with the Chinese government though, I wish you luck in your efforts.

Does this affect every Chinese airport and all operators or just the busiest airports and operators with a high number of flights into China? I haven’t seen this decision reported elsewhere but, there again, I wasn’t particularly looking for it.

Read for yourself. It's going to put a lot of pressure on belly freight (you can still operate pax airliners in as belly freight only).

https://theloadstar.com/china-cabin-car ... ght-rates/

Seems like China are really shooting themselves in the foot with that decision.

aristoenigma · Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:33 pm

Polot wrote:
Saudia has two stored (for reasons not entirely
clear, at least to me) 748Fs: HZ-AI3 and HZ-AI4. I would expect those to be the frames before the Qatari ones.

The timeline suggested in the articles is early 2022. Also the suggestion is three 748Fs are being sourced. Maybe the two Qatari freighters plus one of the ex-Saudia freighters will be used. The ex-Saudia freighters are stored in two different places (Sharjah,UAE and China) Pretty short time left to get it all done so I doubt enough time for new liveries to be done. I bet it is probably driven by CMA CGM Air Cargo with Air Belgium providing pilots. Exciting times for us 747 junkies..

Boeing757100 · Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:43 pm

My apologies for bumping the thread, but yes, a quick look at the wiki page confirms 3 747s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Belgium_(2016)

And I thought the Saudi frames were going to Air Bridge cargo? A quick look at both frames at planespotters proves this.
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... afg/ey6kdo
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... afg/e967w8

So it can't be the Saudis. At this point, the Qatar ones seem more likely, but as stated, Qatar may want to hold on to them for 1-2 years to maximize the amount of freight they're flying amidst the boom. Also the nose loading is unique so that is another reason to at least keep them 1-2 years more. But this breaks Air Belgium's goal of having the 747s by "early this year" (2022).

Perhaps Nippon Cargo is gonna shed a few? They did have about 5-6 747-8Fs not built... Though I have no idea they would still at least keep them to maintain maximum capacity amid the boom right?

N661UA · Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:49 am

This is from SV before.I think it will be start next few weeks

Iemand91 · Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:37 pm

Air Belgium is expanding in cargo aircraft with fresh money from Hongyuan Group of China

In early December 2021, we announced that Air Belgium would launch Boeing 747-8 freighter operations in 2022. This development is taking place right now with the heavy involvement of the Hongyuan Group of China: the first pictures of the aircraft (see above) have appeared with the Hongyuan Group titles on the fuselage and the Air Belgium colours on the tail.

(...)

Two ex-Saudia B747-8F aircraft (HZ-AI3 and HZ-AI4) leased from Aircraft Finance Germany (AFG) under provisional registrations M-ABOV and M-ABOW are now integrated into the Air Belgium fleet to fly for Hongyuan Group. The first one already got Belgian registration OO-ABI.

747classic · Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:31 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
My apologies for bumping the thread, but yes, a quick look at the wiki page confirms 3 747s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Belgium_(2016)

And I thought the Saudi frames were going to Air Bridge cargo? A quick look at both frames at planespotters proves this.
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... afg/ey6kdo
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... afg/e967w8

So it can't be the Saudis. At this point, the Qatar ones seem more likely, but as stated, Qatar may want to hold on to them for 1-2 years to maximize the amount of freight they're flying amidst the boom. Also the nose loading is unique so that is another reason to at least keep them 1-2 years more. But this breaks Air Belgium's goal of having the 747s by "early this year" (2022).

Perhaps Nippon Cargo is gonna shed a few? They did have about 5-6 747-8Fs not built... Though I have no idea they would still at least keep them to maintain maximum capacity amid the boom right?

Planespotters changed the ownership of both ex Saudia 747-8F aircraft to the Hongyuan Group, operated by Air Belgium

M-ABOW ( ex HZ-AI4 ), pictured above at XMN (Haeco) for maintenance ( + landing gear change ?) , ferried to XMN at December 07th 2021
M-ABOV (ex HZ-AI3) is still parked at SJH.

Boeing757100 · Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:08 pm

747classic wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
My apologies for bumping the thread, but yes, a quick look at the wiki page confirms 3 747s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Belgium_(2016)

And I thought the Saudi frames were going to Air Bridge cargo? A quick look at both frames at planespotters proves this.
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... afg/ey6kdo
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... afg/e967w8

So it can't be the Saudis. At this point, the Qatar ones seem more likely, but as stated, Qatar may want to hold on to them for 1-2 years to maximize the amount of freight they're flying amidst the boom. Also the nose loading is unique so that is another reason to at least keep them 1-2 years more. But this breaks Air Belgium's goal of having the 747s by "early this year" (2022).

Perhaps Nippon Cargo is gonna shed a few? They did have about 5-6 747-8Fs not built... Though I have no idea they would still at least keep them to maintain maximum capacity amid the boom right?

Planespotters changed the ownership of both ex Saudia 747-8F aircraft to the Hongyuan Group, operated by Air Belgium

M-ABOW ( ex HZ-AI4 ), pictured above at XMN (Haeco) for maintenance ( + landing gear change ?) , ferried to XMN at December 07th 2021
M-ABOV (ex HZ-AI3) is still parked at SJH.

Ok, so that takes care of 2, but what about the 3rd? Maybe Nippon Cargo (or Qatar) will release one though that's improbable given the conditions.

747classic · Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:00 pm

Wikipedia is an unreliable source, the mentioned number of 3x 747-8F for Air Belgium in : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Belgium_(2016) was sourced from this article (24), see :
https://simpleflying.com/air-belgium-cargo-747-8-ops/
Not the most reliable source (understatement) , but in that article I can't find any indication of 3 X 747-8F !! Not even in the comments.

DN4CAAD · Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:57 pm

Hongyuan is the official warehousing storage supplier of the 2022 Beijing Olympics according to a quick google search. These birds will probably be up in the air very soon if they are moving goods ahead of the games

aristoenigma · Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:46 pm

747classic wrote:
Wikipedia is an unreliable source, the mentioned number of 3x 747-8F for Air Belgium in : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Belgium_(2016) was sourced from this article (24), see :
https://simpleflying.com/air-belgium-cargo-747-8-ops/
Not the most reliable source (understatement) , but in that article I can't find any indication of 3 X 747-8F !! Not even in the comments.

The rumour of three 748s has circulated since the ad for pilots went out. https://onemileatatime.com/news/air-belgium-boeing-747/
Not sure how accurate that site is as it may just be passing on rumours but the article does reference 3 prospective 748Fs. Could be unverified though. Seems that the two ex Saudia freighters are a really good start.

andrej · Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:02 pm

M-ABOW is now enroute from Xiamen to Europe (Brussels?).

se210 · Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:22 pm

andrej wrote:
M-ABOW is now enroute from Xiamen to Europe (Brussels?).

Appears to be heading for BRU...
FlightAware M-ABOW
ADS-B Exchange M-ABOW

se210 · Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:29 pm

M-ABOW was on the move at BRU today (January 26th; around 12:30pm) and appears to have moved from the north cargo apron over to Taxiway Y on the east side of the field. For a while it was being followed by a BRU Inspection vehicle. See https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=424bd3&lat=50.899&lon=4.478&zoom=14.0&showTrace=2022-01-26&leg=2

Picalausa · Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:37 pm

I was able to picture it during the towing on taxiway B10
https://flic.kr/p/2mZhdHP

ben7x · Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:15 pm

Picalausa wrote:
I was able to picture it during the towing on taxiway B10
https://flic.kr/p/2mZhdHP

Such an ugly livery… :/

Cardude2 · Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:42 pm

if the third 748 story is true, they could have gotten it from Cathay, they are not doing well. But the Qatar frames would fit better, especially A7-BGA.

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