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Flying-Tiger
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A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:42 pm

Thought it to be of interested to track the freighter movements & developments of the A330 (P2F) and A350 (F) types. Maybe someone else will start a corresponding B767/777 (P2F / F) topic to hve both covered?

Recent developments - A330 P2F

- Qantas has signed up for two A330-200 to be converted into P2Fs by EFW.
- CMA CGM seems to be getting one A330-200 P2F, to be operated by Air Belgium (assumed)

Recent developments - A350F

- CMA CGM has firmed its order for four A350F
- Singapore Airlines Cargo (7+5), Air France (4+4) and Air Lease (7) are MoU / LoI at this stage
 
TC957
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:56 pm

Good idea - thanks for starting this topic thread. Is Airbus still formally offering new-build A332F's ? Any unfulfilled orders ?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:03 pm

TC957 wrote:
Good idea - thanks for starting this topic thread. Is Airbus still formally offering new-build A332F's ? Any unfulfilled orders ?


As the A332F is based on the A330ceo I think it'd be a surprise. Granted Airbus do make ceos for conversion to tankers, but I don't think the A332F is in formal offer anymore.
 
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PM
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:28 pm

This should be an interesting thread. Thanks.

For the record (rather a depressing record) I thought I'd give what I believe are the final numbers on the A330F.

My numbers may be out by a few but this is more or less the picture.

Airbus received orders for 107 A330Fs. Many were from leasing companies. (Avion, Guggenheim, Intrepid, Flyington, AirCastle MatlinPaterson, BOC)

38 planes were built and delivered.

29 were converted to passenger airframes.

40 were cancelled. (Mostly by the leasing companies.)

Bottom line ... 107 orders received; 38 planes delivered.

Ouch.
 
TC957
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:22 pm

I guess the A332F didn't sell well as it wasn't really superior for operating costs than a B763F, but it looks like the upcoming A350F will have the 77F in it's current form nailed. I take it Airbus have no intention of making an A338F.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:42 pm

I guess it would be easy to produce an A338F if there was demand for it, given that the 338 is a mildly developed 332.

Absent a big demand for 338Fs, I think Airbus has decided it can better Boeing at the high end of the freighter market, and let the lower end be covered by converted 332s and 333s.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:58 pm

QR just sold out its A330F prior to covid-19
 
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Scoreboard
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:32 pm

PM wrote:
This should be an interesting thread. Thanks.

For the record (rather a depressing record) I thought I'd give what I believe are the final numbers on the A330F.
38 planes were built and delivered.
.


And the breakdown of orders was

3 Aircastle
6 Avianca
5 BOC Aviation
5 Etihad AW
4 Malaysia AL
1 MNG AL
5 Qatar AW
9 Turkish AL

currently operators
4 Air Belgium (1584, 1594, 1688, 1708)
2 Air Hong Kong (1032, 1414)
6 Avianca Cargo (1368, 1380, 1428, 1448, 1506, 1534)
3 European Air Transport (1070, 1524, 1772)
5 Hong Kong Air Cargo (1051, 1062, 1115, 1175, 1320)
3 Malaysia AL (1136, 1148,1180)
1 MNG AL (1332)
3 Sichuan AL (1350, 1386, 1408)
10 Turkish AL (1004, 1092, 1164, 1344, 1418, 1442, 1550, 1722, 1750, 1768)
1 Wizz Air / Hungarian Govt (1578)
 
MD80MKE
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:04 pm

Thanks author for creating this thread, we kinda needed this for a while.

A status update on the A330P2F program.
Currently EFW has delivered 3 A330-200P2F and 10 A330-300P2F to date.

600 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCE 04-08-2018
610 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCF 09-11-2019
709 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCJ 02-02-2019

116 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEA/B-LDO 05-12-2017
127 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEB 01-03-2018
231 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEC 24-09-2019
713 A330-343(P2F) GEODIS G-EODS 27-08-2021
777 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDR 14-06-2020
781 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDQ 23-08-2020
879 A330-343(P2F) MNG TC-MCM 17-11-2021
1107 A330-343(P2F) DHL D-ACVG 06-05-2021
1124 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDT 07-01-2021
1477 A330-343(P2F) DHL D-AJFK 30-09-2021

Currently in conversions are
868 A330-243(P2F) ex-Etihad Airways A6-EYQ MasAir XA- Entered DRS 13-06-2021
958 A330-343(P2F) ex-China Southern Airlines B-6502 CDB Aviation Entered DRS 23-04-2021
964 A330-343(P2F) ex-China Southern Airlines B-6501 CDB Aviation Entered DRS 06-08-2021
1401 A330-343(P2F) ex-Hi Fly 9H-HFC DHL Entered DRS 13-08-2021

There are two recent arrivals at DRS MSN 1357 and 1378, both ex-Avianca frames and currently less than 9 years old that are expected to entered conversion soon and the expectation is that both will go to DHL. Both of the CDB frames will go to MasAir.

Source
https://a380.boards.net/thread/1044/a330p2f
 
MD80MKE
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:09 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
- CMA CGM seems to be getting one A330-200 P2F, to be operated by Air Belgium (assumed)


This is interesting. Any idea on the timeline and the lessor behind (if any)?
 
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Revelation
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:23 pm

PM wrote:
Airbus received orders for 107 A330Fs. Many were from leasing companies. (Avion, Guggenheim, Intrepid, Flyington, AirCastle MatlinPaterson, BOC)

38 planes were built and delivered.

29 were converted to passenger airframes.

40 were cancelled. (Mostly by the leasing companies.)

Bottom line ... 107 orders received; 38 planes delivered.

Whether you intended to or not, this tends to support the skeptical outlook for the lease orders for A350F, IMO.

On the positive side, A350F is a much more capable and desirable aircraft.

On the negative side, customers willing to pay the going rate for factory fresh freighters do not grow on trees, especially in the environment where many different wide body conversion lines are being set up.

Hopefully we see the A350F LOIs become firm orders and lease placements get announced fairly soon.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:30 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
- CMA CGM seems to be getting one A330-200 P2F, to be operated by Air Belgium (assumed)


This is interesting. Any idea on the timeline and the lessor behind (if any)?


This will be where sources would be helpful. We already cover a lot of this in the Air Cargo megathread.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:35 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
Thanks author for creating this thread, we kinda needed this for a while.

A status update on the A330P2F program.
Currently EFW has delivered 3 A330-200P2F and 10 A330-300P2F to date.

600 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCE 04-08-2018
610 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCF 09-11-2019
709 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCJ 02-02-2019

116 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEA/B-LDO 05-12-2017
127 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEB 01-03-2018
231 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEC 24-09-2019
713 A330-343(P2F) GEODIS G-EODS 27-08-2021
777 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDR 14-06-2020
781 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDQ 23-08-2020
879 A330-343(P2F) MNG TC-MCM 17-11-2021
1107 A330-343(P2F) DHL D-ACVG 06-05-2021
1124 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDT 07-01-2021
1477 A330-343(P2F) DHL D-AJFK 30-09-2021

Currently in conversions are
868 A330-243(P2F) ex-Etihad Airways A6-EYQ MasAir XA- Entered DRS 13-06-2021
958 A330-343(P2F) ex-China Southern Airlines B-6502 CDB Aviation Entered DRS 23-04-2021
964 A330-343(P2F) ex-China Southern Airlines B-6501 CDB Aviation Entered DRS 06-08-2021
1401 A330-343(P2F) ex-Hi Fly 9H-HFC DHL Entered DRS 13-08-2021

There are two recent arrivals at DRS MSN 1357 and 1378, both ex-Avianca frames and currently less than 9 years old that are expected to entered conversion soon and the expectation is that both will go to DHL. Both of the CDB frames will go to MasAir.

Source
https://a380.boards.net/thread/1044/a330p2f

This list begs the question: did Airbus make a mistake in picking the A330-200 as its freighter basis? Should they have picked the A330-300 since it seems to be a bigger success in P2F conversion?
 
StTim
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:41 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
Thanks author for creating this thread, we kinda needed this for a while.

A status update on the A330P2F program.
Currently EFW has delivered 3 A330-200P2F and 10 A330-300P2F to date.

600 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCE 04-08-2018
610 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCF 09-11-2019
709 A330-243(P2F) EgyptAir SU-GCJ 02-02-2019

116 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEA/B-LDO 05-12-2017
127 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEB 01-03-2018
231 A330-322(P2F) DHL EI-HEC 24-09-2019
713 A330-343(P2F) GEODIS G-EODS 27-08-2021
777 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDR 14-06-2020
781 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDQ 23-08-2020
879 A330-343(P2F) MNG TC-MCM 17-11-2021
1107 A330-343(P2F) DHL D-ACVG 06-05-2021
1124 A330-343(P2F) DHL B-LDT 07-01-2021
1477 A330-343(P2F) DHL D-AJFK 30-09-2021

Currently in conversions are
868 A330-243(P2F) ex-Etihad Airways A6-EYQ MasAir XA- Entered DRS 13-06-2021
958 A330-343(P2F) ex-China Southern Airlines B-6502 CDB Aviation Entered DRS 23-04-2021
964 A330-343(P2F) ex-China Southern Airlines B-6501 CDB Aviation Entered DRS 06-08-2021
1401 A330-343(P2F) ex-Hi Fly 9H-HFC DHL Entered DRS 13-08-2021

There are two recent arrivals at DRS MSN 1357 and 1378, both ex-Avianca frames and currently less than 9 years old that are expected to entered conversion soon and the expectation is that both will go to DHL. Both of the CDB frames will go to MasAir.

Source
https://a380.boards.net/thread/1044/a330p2f

This list begs the question: did Airbus make a mistake in picking the A330-200 as its freighter basis? Should they have picked the A330-300 since it seems to be a bigger success in P2F conversion?


I think they have admitted that in discussions around the 350F.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:44 pm

I still don't see any compelling reason why anyone would spend 3-4x as much for a new A350 over a modified A330. According to my calculations the payback on the fuel savings is 46 years.

And in the 330 the door is ahead of the wing!
 
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Polot
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:46 pm

SteelChair wrote:
And in the 330 the door is ahead of the wing!

Which many operators have learned is not always superior (but no one is going to choose a freighter based on door position).


The 77F has done a lot to normalize the behind wing door for non-747 operators.
 
LDRA
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:47 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I still don't see any compelling reason why anyone would spend 3-4x as much for a new A350 over a modified A330. According to my calculations the payback on the fuel savings is 46 years.

And in the 330 the door is ahead of the wing!


What is the utilization?
 
MD80MKE
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:05 pm

Spacepope wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
- CMA CGM seems to be getting one A330-200 P2F, to be operated by Air Belgium (assumed)


This is interesting. Any idea on the timeline and the lessor behind (if any)?


This will be where sources would be helpful. We already cover a lot of this in the Air Cargo megathread.


Thanks I've been a regular follower of that thread which is a fascinating one. But I don't think I've read anything about the A330-200P2F there. There were indeed discussions about the factory -200Fs they acquired from Qatar and the 777F order though.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:12 pm

LDRA wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I still don't see any compelling reason why anyone would spend 3-4x as much for a new A350 over a modified A330. According to my calculations the payback on the fuel savings is 46 years.

And in the 330 the door is ahead of the wing!


What is the utilization?


I assume you mean in my amateur analysis.

4,700 hours per year.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:21 pm

SteelChair wrote:
LDRA wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I still don't see any compelling reason why anyone would spend 3-4x as much for a new A350 over a modified A330. According to my calculations the payback on the fuel savings is 46 years.

And in the 330 the door is ahead of the wing!


What is the utilization?


I assume you mean in my amateur analysis.

4,700 hours per year.


Oh wait, my bad. That analysis was 777CEO modified for cargo versus a new build A350F.

Let's say I'm off by a huge amount, say 50%. It's still a massive capital outlay up front for the new airplane with a fuel burn savings that only pays back slowly over time. Time value of money.

Only one thing we can be sure of: the company that makes that investment will claim they are green on the press release!
 
StTim
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:31 pm

Fuel burn is only part of the equation.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:55 pm

Drum roll please, looks like we have the first *firmed* orders for the A350F, the four CMA CMG ones...

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... freighters

Now the hard part begins, making money on the project.
Last edited by Revelation on Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
smartplane
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:59 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I still don't see any compelling reason why anyone would spend 3-4x as much for a new A350 over a modified A330. According to my calculations the payback on the fuel savings is 46 years.

If the comparison is with an A350, then surely ditto and more for the 777X.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:03 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
This list begs the question: did Airbus make a mistake in picking the A330-200 as its freighter basis? Should they have picked the A330-300 since it seems to be a bigger success in P2F conversion?

Airbus's COO agrees with that idea:

“The mistake Airbus made [with the A330-200F] was to say, ‘Look, we don’t have an airplane that is really capable of that having density, but we want that range.’ We developed the 330 freighter on the basis of the -200, and that was the mistake. We should have done it on the -300, because the 200, even though it’s got a little better structural capability than the -300 still doesn’t have the structural capability for the heavy freight. We should’ve gone for volumetric payload, as opposed to trying to compromise between structural payload and volume. We’re not making that same mistake [with the A350] because we’re starting with the bigger module.”

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... fications/
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
This list begs the question: did Airbus make a mistake in picking the A330-200 as its freighter basis? Should they have picked the A330-300 since it seems to be a bigger success in P2F conversion?

Airbus's COO agrees with that idea:

“The mistake Airbus made [with the A330-200F] was to say, ‘Look, we don’t have an airplane that is really capable of that having density, but we want that range.’ We developed the 330 freighter on the basis of the -200, and that was the mistake. We should have done it on the -300, because the 200, even though it’s got a little better structural capability than the -300 still doesn’t have the structural capability for the heavy freight. We should’ve gone for volumetric payload, as opposed to trying to compromise between structural payload and volume. We’re not making that same mistake [with the A350] because we’re starting with the bigger module.”

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... fications/

Thanks, now I remember that article...
Lesson learned for Airbus. They missed the coach on the A330F, but are still benefitting from the cargo conversions (aftermarket for decades to come).
 
Articuno
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:59 am

A freighter the size of an A332F could not be commercially successful without orders from FedEx or UPS. That is where the 763F beats the A332F. Currently, 224 out of the 251 orders (89.24%)for the 763F are from FedEx and UPS.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:21 am

Articuno wrote:
A freighter the size of an A332F could not be commercially successful without orders from FedEx or UPS. That is where the 763F beats the A332F. Currently, 224 out of the 251 orders (89.24%)for the 763F are from FedEx and UPS.


They better get to designing folding wings if there is any hope then. The 767 fits in. The same gates as the A300 and MD-10/11. Switching to A330/350 will require 747/777 sized gates due to wingspan, and a massive investment at infrastructure for that to change.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:22 am

Articuno wrote:
A freighter the size of an A332F could not be commercially successful without orders from FedEx or UPS. That is where the 763F beats the A332F. Currently, 224 out of the 251 orders (89.24%)for the 763F are from FedEx and UPS.


One can almost imagine the sales pitches that have been thrown at them from Airbus and Boeing....
 
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zkojq
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 am

It's enjoyable watching CMA CGM building their fleet so quickly. I wonder which MSN their P2F is.

Revelation wrote:
Whether you intended to or not, this tends to support the skeptical outlook for the lease orders for A350F, IMO.


Does it? How many lessors cancelled orders for the 777F (a far more comparable plane to the A350 freighter)?

smartplane wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I still don't see any compelling reason why anyone would spend 3-4x as much for a new A350 over a modified A330. According to my calculations the payback on the fuel savings is 46 years.

If the comparison is with an A350, then surely ditto and more for the 777X.


And similar for the 777F - which has been selling very well in recent years.
 
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flee
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:07 am

TC957 wrote:
Good idea - thanks for starting this topic thread. Is Airbus still formally offering new-build A332F's ? Any unfulfilled orders ?

Why would anyone buy a new build A332F when there are so many A332 and A333 P2F conversions available? I think that in the next 5 years, a lot of A330s that are coming off leases will be converted into freighters - and most of them will be A333P2Fs.
 
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zkojq
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:28 am

flee wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Good idea - thanks for starting this topic thread. Is Airbus still formally offering new-build A332F's ? Any unfulfilled orders ?

Why would anyone buy a new build A332F when there are so many A332 and A333 P2F conversions available? I think that in the next 5 years, a lot of A330s that are coming off leases will be converted into freighters - and most of them will be A333P2Fs.



Indeed - the market for -300 conversions seems to be very strong right now. Main constraint is conversion positions at EFW. In the A330/A340 retirements and secondary market thread it was discussed that, barring writeoffs, the newest A330-300 to be scrapped was one built way back in 1998. As compared to about 2009 for A330-200s.
 
SYD330
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:01 am

Are there going to be plans to use the NEO engine option on the A350 Freighter's?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:25 am

SYD330 wrote:
Are there going to be plans to use the NEO engine option on the A350 Freighter's?

As of today (December 20th or 21st - depending where you live- 2021), there are no NEO engine options on the A350, let alone the still-under-development freighter.

Did you mean to ask if Airbus is going to produce an A330-800F?
 
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PM
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:31 am

Revelation wrote:
PM wrote:
Airbus received orders for 107 A330Fs. Many were from leasing companies. (Avion, Guggenheim, Intrepid, Flyington, AirCastle MatlinPaterson, BOC)

38 planes were built and delivered.

29 were converted to passenger airframes.

40 were cancelled. (Mostly by the leasing companies.)

Bottom line ... 107 orders received; 38 planes delivered.

Whether you intended to or not, this tends to support the skeptical outlook for the lease orders for A350F, IMO.



Yes, the same thought occurred to me. But I don't think history will repeat itself. Airbus got burned on the 330F. I think they're on far firmer ground now.

Well, I hope so ...
 
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PM
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:43 am

Scoreboard wrote:
PM wrote:

And the breakdown of orders was

3 Sichuan AL (1350, 1386, 1408)


I think 1408 should be 1406.
 
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flee
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:23 am

Polot wrote:
I think A333P2F can have a role in FX/UPS’s fleet- it is a much larger aircraft than the 763F. The A332P2F not so much.

I am not so sure as they already operate the B777F - why have another type of aircraft to complicate matters?
 
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Polot
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:54 am

flee wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think A333P2F can have a role in FX/UPS’s fleet- it is a much larger aircraft than the 763F. The A332P2F not so much.

I am not so sure as they already operate the B777F - why have another type of aircraft to complicate matters?

Any A330P2F would be for regional use while the 777F’s primary focus would be long haul. See DHL for example. UPS also doesn’t have any 777Fs.
 
MD80MKE
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:53 pm

Not sure why post yesterday got deleted, but first A330P2F for MasAir EI-MYY has done with conversion and did a test flight yesterday. Spent 7 months at DRS and is the fastest frame to date to be completed. It has a white coat of paint so I expect it to enter service as is. https://www.flightradar24.com/EIMYY/2a8b02d2
 
a2b7
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:10 pm

Polot wrote:
flee wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think A333P2F can have a role in FX/UPS’s fleet- it is a much larger aircraft than the 763F. The A332P2F not so much.

I am not so sure as they already operate the B777F - why have another type of aircraft to complicate matters?

Any A330P2F would be for regional use while the 777F’s primary focus would be long haul. See DHL for example. UPS also doesn’t have any 777Fs.

It is true that most A330P2Fs at DHL are for regional use, but note that the two A333P2Fs that were delivered to EAT Leipzig last year (D-ACVG and D-AJFK) have been busy with transatlantic runs. On flightradar24.com, I see for example the following routes:
Transatlantic: LEJ-JFK, JFK-BRU, BRU-CVG, BRU-MIA, MIA-MAD, MXP-CVG
Regional: LEJ-BRU, MXP-LEJ, BRU-MXP, MAD-MXP
Let's see whether they switch to more regional routes as more 777Fs arrive.
 
BHRN
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:33 pm

flee wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think A333P2F can have a role in FX/UPS’s fleet- it is a much larger aircraft than the 763F. The A332P2F not so much.

I am not so sure as they already operate the B777F - why have another type of aircraft to complicate matters?


I agree with Polot. A333P2F can have a different role at FX with their 777s, which is currently being undertaken by their MD11s. It's too much a gap capacity-wise between their 767F and 777F.

That said, this wouldn't happen unless FX is able to sort out the wingspan/gate issue at their US hubs.
 
HPRamper
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:00 am

BHRN wrote:
flee wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think A333P2F can have a role in FX/UPS’s fleet- it is a much larger aircraft than the 763F. The A332P2F not so much.

I am not so sure as they already operate the B777F - why have another type of aircraft to complicate matters?


I agree with Polot. A333P2F can have a different role at FX with their 777s, which is currently being undertaken by their MD11s. It's too much a gap capacity-wise between their 767F and 777F.

That said, this wouldn't happen unless FX is able to sort out the wingspan/gate issue at their US hubs.

They aren't going to redo the gates at the hubs. It's a nonstarter.

The capacity gap is solved with more frames, which they have options for anyway. FX wants factory freighters now, I give them a sub-10% chance of doing an about face and picking up P2F Airbus frames, when they very openly want to replace the A300s and move to an all-Boeing fleet. More likely they pressure Boeing on a 764F which will almost exactly match the capacity of the MD11F.
 
BHRN
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:56 pm

HPRamper wrote:
That said, this wouldn't happen unless FX is able to sort out the wingspan/gate issue at their US hubs.
They aren't going to redo the gates at the hubs. It's a nonstarter.

The capacity gap is solved with more frames, which they have options for anyway. FX wants factory freighters now, I give them a sub-10% chance of doing an about face and picking up P2F Airbus frames, when they very openly want to replace the A300s and move to an all-Boeing fleet. More likely they pressure Boeing on a 764F which will almost exactly match the capacity of the MD11F.


Agree...A330P2F just wouldn't happen. Otherwise, we could have seen new builds A332F rather than 767F in the first place.

But again, 764F doesn't seem to be the solution either. Being 6.4m longer than the 763F, I will give it max 4pos/8LD2 extra capacity. That is still far from what FX is carrying on the MD11. Using more frames might work for domestic, but wouldn't work for international markets where there are frequency/traffic rights cap.

Perhaps there will be a place for a 772P2F one day.
 
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Polot
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:56 pm

BHRN wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
That said, this wouldn't happen unless FX is able to sort out the wingspan/gate issue at their US hubs.
They aren't going to redo the gates at the hubs. It's a nonstarter.

The capacity gap is solved with more frames, which they have options for anyway. FX wants factory freighters now, I give them a sub-10% chance of doing an about face and picking up P2F Airbus frames, when they very openly want to replace the A300s and move to an all-Boeing fleet. More likely they pressure Boeing on a 764F which will almost exactly match the capacity of the MD11F.


Agree...A330P2F just wouldn't happen. Otherwise, we could have seen new builds A332F rather than 767F in the first place.

But again, 764F doesn't seem to be the solution either. Being 6.4m longer than the 763F, I will give it max 4pos/8LD2 extra capacity. That is still far from what FX is carrying on the MD11. Using more frames might work for domestic, but wouldn't work for international markets where there are frequency/traffic rights cap.

Perhaps there will be a place for a 772P2F one day.

Well that’s why they have ~60 777Fs (and I’m sure will look at 77L/WP2Fs).
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5265
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:41 pm

BHRN wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
That said, this wouldn't happen unless FX is able to sort out the wingspan/gate issue at their US hubs.
They aren't going to redo the gates at the hubs. It's a nonstarter.

The capacity gap is solved with more frames, which they have options for anyway. FX wants factory freighters now, I give them a sub-10% chance of doing an about face and picking up P2F Airbus frames, when they very openly want to replace the A300s and move to an all-Boeing fleet. More likely they pressure Boeing on a 764F which will almost exactly match the capacity of the MD11F.


Agree...A330P2F just wouldn't happen. Otherwise, we could have seen new builds A332F rather than 767F in the first place.

But again, 764F doesn't seem to be the solution either. Being 6.4m longer than the 763F, I will give it max 4pos/8LD2 extra capacity. That is still far from what FX is carrying on the MD11. Using more frames might work for domestic, but wouldn't work for international markets where there are frequency/traffic rights cap.

Perhaps there will be a place for a 772P2F one day.

The 763F is 80% of the usable capacity of the MD11F. The 764F with its extra length will be close enough to the 11 that the deficit will be negligible.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1039
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:03 pm

I hope that the mods don`t lock this tread , please ! The topic is A330/ 350 freighter which excludes any team B model.
 
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JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1991
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:32 pm

Possible small Ethiopian order for 350Fs alongside 777Fs:

"Ethiopian Airlines (ET, Addis Ababa) is planning to order around five B777 freighters and could add "some" A350Fs to the mix, Chief Executive Tewolde GebreMariam told the state-run WALTA news agency.

He did not specify whether the airline was considering adding more B777-200Fs or rather ordering B777X freighters, once Boeing confirms the development."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... hter-order
 
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mafaky
Posts: 895
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:36 pm

Any idea about the below indicated conversion?

See: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1466415&start=50#p23026987

As far as I can understand this conversion doesn't include the opening of a wide side loading cargo door (the 1L & 2L doors are left intact). The company says that it can be done in 4 weeks. And, if need arises, the cargo converted frame can be re-converted to all pax configuration. If a side loading bir cargo door is mounted, it's pretty much impractical to go back to all pax. config. But in this kind of conversion, there will not be any rails etc. in the floor of the cabin for palletised and/or container cargo.
 
Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
Posts: 4205
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:25 am

CDB Aviation has signed for 12 additional A330 P2F conversons with EFW - and has announced as Sichuan Airlines as client for 2 A330-300 P2F, and Jianxi Cargo Airlines as client for one A330-300 P2F. Announced at the same time were A330 conversion lines in Shanghai at ST Engineering and at Mobile at VT MAE.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220210005821/en/CDB-Aviation-Advances-A330-P2F-Strategy-with-New-Conversion-Order-and-Freighter-Introduction-in-China
 
Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
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Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:39 pm

ATSG has, during its earnings call, indicated that they already hold lease down payments for "more than half" of the A330s to be received from 2024 onwards - 14 to be precie:

Already, we have deposits from customers for 14 of the 20 A330s that we have previously committed to convert. I'm confident by the end of this year, our order book will include customer commitments for all of the first 20 A330s we plan to deploy.


And:

In light of that strong customer interest for an aircraft still two years away from delivery, we have boosted our conversion slot commitment by nine to 29 A330s for delivery over the next five years.


And:

We also made our first or secured access to our first feedstock for the A330. We have deposit on the first five of the 20 aircraft.


https://seekingalpha.com/article/4490708-air-transport-services-group-inc-atsg-ceo-rich-corrado-on-q4-2021-results-earnings-call

There is further indication that some of the 14 A330 clients will be named soon, apparently a mix of existing ATSG clients and new ones.
 
B777LRF
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: A330/350 Freighter Topic

Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:09 pm

Airbus have released more information on the A350F:

- “Industries highest” running load; 14 more full-weight (6.8 tons) positions than the 777F
- 28 tons less MTOW than the 777F, 32 tons less than the 777-8F (the latter is an estimate)
- 20% lower fuel burn than the 777F
- Ability to load large engines using floor restraint system rather than straps. Reduces turn-around time and negates the need to have empty positions for anchoring the straps
- Key requirement is ability to carry max payload on HKG to ANC sector; A350F MZFW range was designed to meet this requirement

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/stor ... marter-way

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