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qf789
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Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:54 am

There are reports coming in that on the 20th December 21 EK231 operating DXB-IAD was involved in a serious incident on departure

Below are the key points involved in the incident though some of it is unconfirmed at this point in time

EK231 operated by 77W A6-EQI
Aircraft departed DXB with flight director set at 0 feet instead of an altitude 4000 feet, according to attached article pilots forgot to set flight director at an altitude of 4000 feet
Aircraft pitched downwards after takeoff at one point was traveling at 262 knots at 175 feet ASL
It is alleged the aircraft sustained damaged though continued to IAD and operated the return flight back to DXB, though the return flight was delayed
It is also unconfirmed that all 4 pilots have been fired
FAA said to be investigating the incident

https://onemileatatime.com/news/emirate ... per-footer
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:19 am

Something doesn’t add up, wouldn’t the plane still be in manual control this early into the flight? Not familiar with the 777 flight systems.
 
777luver
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:16 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Something doesn’t add up, wouldn’t the plane still be in manual control this early into the flight? Not familiar with the 777 flight systems.


One would think so. 175 ASL would be just seconds after t/o. You're right, something doesn't add up here with that part
 
EK216
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:42 am

From the article --

... a Boeing 777 (presumably) full of passengers and fuel was descending right after takeoff, to the point that it was lower than many high rises in Dubai, and flying at a very fast pace.


That sounds very spine-tingling. I wonder if the passengers noticed at all.
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:07 am

A few strange things as pointed out above but also surely the pilots wouldn’t be fired straight away. Perhaps stood down pending further investigation but fired on the spot before everything is determined? Really?
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:37 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Something doesn’t add up, wouldn’t the plane still be in manual control this early into the flight? Not familiar with the 777 flight systems.


Some pilots engage the automation as soon as the wheels are up, but not sure on specific planes and their differences. There was a famous quip about Asiana several years ago that the autopilot would do virtually everything on the plane.
 
T54A
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:04 am

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Something doesn’t add up, wouldn’t the plane still be in manual control this early into the flight? Not familiar with the 777 flight systems.


Some pilots engage the automation as soon as the wheels are up, but not sure on specific planes and their differences. There was a famous quip about Asiana several years ago that the autopilot would do virtually everything on the plane.


That would be appropriate behavior in congested airspace or when flying a complex SID.
 
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qf789
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:13 am

The AVherald is reporting that the aircraft rotated past the end of the runway and was airborne just at the runway end safety area

http://avherald.com/h?article=4f24b2d7
 
VMCA787
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:23 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:
A few strange things as pointed out above but also surely the pilots wouldn’t be fired straight away. Perhaps stood down pending further investigation but fired on the spot before everything is determined? Really?

You obviously haven't had the "pleasure" of working for a ME3. The simple fact is if you are terminated then there is no problem. Issue solved. Forget everything you know about workers' rights.
 
LHAM
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:29 am

What sort of damage could be sustained from this?
Tires maybe because of the higher speed while on tarmac?
 
santi319
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:47 am

VMCA787 wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
A few strange things as pointed out above but also surely the pilots wouldn’t be fired straight away. Perhaps stood down pending further investigation but fired on the spot before everything is determined? Really?

You obviously haven't had the "pleasure" of working for a ME3. The simple fact is if you are terminated then there is no problem. Issue solved. Forget everything you know about workers' rights.

Thiss, the ME3 are NOT regulated at all like the rest of the west, people forget that. Heck, people even completely forget about the Flydubai accident in Rostov, which was 100% the airline and the regulations over there ‘s fault. Not even a word on it.

That area of the world is known to hide anything for their image.
 
kalvado
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:05 am

LHAM wrote:
What sort of damage could be sustained from this?
Tires maybe because of the higher speed while on tarmac?

Could easily be some damage to the underside of the plane from antennas, and hopefully not something more substantial like trees.
75 feet agl above houses... Even with single floors may mean rooftop antennas or weather wanes could be collected, or pieces of roof could hit something.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:14 am

kalvado wrote:
LHAM wrote:
What sort of damage could be sustained from this?
Tires maybe because of the higher speed while on tarmac?

Could easily be some damage to the underside of the plane from antennas, and hopefully not something more substantial like trees.
75 feet agl above houses... Even with single floors may mean rooftop antennas or weather wanes could be collected, or pieces of roof could hit something.

But this aircraft flew all the way to Washington and also the return flight to DXB. Either the „damage“ was very minor or … well.
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:19 am

You can lose your job at the ME3 even the preceding incident is not your fault.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:35 am

I have a set of question for all posters who claim [one would loose job at the ME3 for whatever reasons].

My questions are:
1, Have you seen the employment contract between the pilot and the airline?
2, Have you had direct knowledge of local employment laws in UAE or Qatar?
3, Have you seen the company procurement of ME3?
4, Do you know any pilot personally that was fired for no reason from ME3 (please do not include those fired during pandemic or Etihad that was downsizing, those are different from the case here)?

Please understand that I am not trying to defending ME3 and the general knowledge of lack of workers right in middle east, especially if you are a domestic helper or working in the lowest income jobs, or if you are from certain undesirable regions considered by the host nations.

But all ME3 are modern companies based on modern airline structures. Pilots are highly regarded professionals by almost all ME countries and are considered as privileged people.

I am genuinely intrigued by people here repeatedly make it sounds they have first hand knowledge that ME treats the higher class pilots like the lower class street cleaners. Since I don't have direct knowledge of the contract, maybe some poster here made the claim can shed some lights to people like me who do not know the full story?
 
a320fan
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:35 am

N14AZ wrote:
kalvado wrote:
LHAM wrote:
What sort of damage could be sustained from this?
Tires maybe because of the higher speed while on tarmac?

Could easily be some damage to the underside of the plane from antennas, and hopefully not something more substantial like trees.
75 feet agl above houses... Even with single floors may mean rooftop antennas or weather wanes could be collected, or pieces of roof could hit something.

But this aircraft flew all the way to Washington and also the return flight to DXB. Either the „damage“ was very minor or … well.


The 777 is a tough bird. QR had an incident in MIA a few years ago where they overran the runway on departure, collected a few antennas, nearly took out cars in the carpark, and ended up with a big gaping gash torn into the underside of the fuselage. Flew all the way to DOH with no indication that anything abnormal was going on.
 
DEN2021
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:36 am

Didn’t something like this happen to a QR 777 out of MIA?
 
HB-IWC
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:42 am

N14AZ wrote:
But this aircraft flew all the way to Washington and also the return flight to DXB. Either the „damage“ was very minor or … well.


The departure from IAD was delayed by 3 hours and after returning to Dubai, the aircraft was out of action for the next 3 days, when it was dispatched to Brussels. The delay and subsequent down time may or may not be related to the incident, of course.
 
Theseus
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:56 am

Besides workers right, the fact that they are fired before any independent enquiry raises a lot of questions to me. Where do opportunities to learn from the mishap go ? Also, what message does it send to the crews that may observe a (less obvious) mishap and should report so that all the community can learn of it ? (if you cover it up you may keep your job unless someone else notices). Seems at the very opposite of what everybody has done for decades and how global safety standards have raised to the levels they are at today.
 
TC957
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:59 am

chonetsao wrote:
I have a set of question for all posters who claim [one would loose job at the ME3 for whatever reasons].


I am genuinely intrigued by people here repeatedly make it sounds they have first hand knowledge that ME treats the higher class pilots like the lower class street cleaners. Since I don't have direct knowledge of the contract, maybe some poster here made the claim can shed some lights to people like me who do not know the full story?


If you check back on historical threads on pilot employment by the ME3, you'll come across many situations where they have had contracts terminated for the most minor of situations. Unless the pilots are Emirati / Qatari nationals of course. Just goes with the territory out there.
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:06 am

chonetsao wrote:
I have a set of question for all posters who claim [one would loose job at the ME3 for whatever reasons].

My questions are:
1, Have you seen the employment contract between the pilot and the airline?
2, Have you had direct knowledge of local employment laws in UAE or Qatar?
3, Have you seen the company procurement of ME3?
4, Do you know any pilot personally that was fired for no reason from ME3 (please do not include those fired during pandemic or Etihad that was downsizing, those are different from the case here)?

Please understand that I am not trying to defending ME3 and the general knowledge of lack of workers right in middle east, especially if you are a domestic helper or working in the lowest income jobs, or if you are from certain undesirable regions considered by the host nations.

But all ME3 are modern companies based on modern airline structures. Pilots are highly regarded professionals by almost all ME countries and are considered as privileged people.

I am genuinely intrigued by people here repeatedly make it sounds they have first hand knowledge that ME treats the higher class pilots like the lower class street cleaners. Since I don't have direct knowledge of the contract, maybe some poster here made the claim can shed some lights to people like me who do not know the full story?


As someone who worked in aviation in the ME. Trust me. You can be shown the door at the moment notice. Regardless of your profession.
 
dopplerd
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:18 am

DEN2021 wrote:
Didn’t something like this happen to a QR 777 out of MIA?


Yeah, the pilots took off from a runway intersection but had calculated for full length and took out some runway lights. They flew all the way to Qatar with a 2 foot gash in the tail.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:35 am

chonetsao wrote:
I have a set of question for all posters who claim [one would loose job at the ME3 for whatever reasons].

My questions are:
1, Have you seen the employment contract between the pilot and the airline?
2, Have you had direct knowledge of local employment laws in UAE or Qatar?
3, Have you seen the company procurement of ME3?
4, Do you know any pilot personally that was fired for no reason from ME3 (please do not include those fired during pandemic or Etihad that was downsizing, those are different from the case here)?

Please understand that I am not trying to defending ME3 and the general knowledge of lack of workers right in middle east, especially if you are a domestic helper or working in the lowest income jobs, or if you are from certain undesirable regions considered by the host nations.

But all ME3 are modern companies based on modern airline structures. Pilots are highly regarded professionals by almost all ME countries and are considered as privileged people.

I am genuinely intrigued by people here repeatedly make it sounds they have first hand knowledge that ME treats the higher class pilots like the lower class street cleaners. Since I don't have direct knowledge of the contract, maybe some poster here made the claim can shed some lights to people like me who do not know the full story?


1: Yes, and it’s not worth the price of the paper it is written on. Employee relations is a solid one-way street, where the employer can and will change any element of a contract if they feel like it.
2: Yes. Give you an example: QR has a ranking structure that goes from 1 to 13; 1 is the tea boy and 13 is AAB himself. Grade 10 and above are VP, SVP, EVP, C-suite. In their HR department they have two people dedicated to handling grade 10s and above who gets fired. Fired. Tells you all you need to know about how toxic the working environment is.
3: I’ve no idea what you mean by this
4: Yes, several. One got fired for carrying out a missed approach, which just happened to have a local SVP onboard who didn’t like the “delay” it caused. Another voiced his displeasure with a contract change, which meant more work for less pay, and was escorted by security to his home. They found stationary (a pen and a block of paper) carrying the company logo, and was fired for theft of company property. He had attended a training course and had brought his notes (the block of paper) and the pen with him when the training ended. As had every single other attendant at that training course.

And for the part I’ve highlighted, it takes the price for providing the laugh of the day. You’re so far off in that assessment it doesn’t even come close to describing realities. Sure, they’d like to portray themselves as being all modern, and they sure knows how to spend money buying all the most modern and fancy kit. But they are not, and anybody who’s not a local is regarded as nothing but hired help, easily replaced hired help at that. Or, in other words, a necessary evil they wished they could do without, but for various reasons can’t. Pilots are universally hated by the management of ME3, and are as from being “highly regarded” as can possibly be. You are right they are regarded as privileged, and that’s just one more reason they are hated.

Trust this has brought the enlightenment you were looking for.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:28 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
There was a famous quip about Asiana several years ago that the autopilot would do virtually everything on the plane.

What was the quip?
 
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par13del
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:30 pm

So foreign pilots are willing to sacrifice their "liberties" for the few extra dollars they will make working in that toxic environment, are they being "encouraged" by their respective governments for "political" reasons, and I mean those from the EU in particular and possibly Americans, pilots from other nations may already be used to such environments.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:41 pm

B777LRF wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I have a set of question for all posters who claim [one would loose job at the ME3 for whatever reasons].

My questions are:
1, Have you seen the employment contract between the pilot and the airline?
2, Have you had direct knowledge of local employment laws in UAE or Qatar?
3, Have you seen the company procurement of ME3?
4, Do you know any pilot personally that was fired for no reason from ME3 (please do not include those fired during pandemic or Etihad that was downsizing, those are different from the case here)?

Please understand that I am not trying to defending ME3 and the general knowledge of lack of workers right in middle east, especially if you are a domestic helper or working in the lowest income jobs, or if you are from certain undesirable regions considered by the host nations.

But all ME3 are modern companies based on modern airline structures. Pilots are highly regarded professionals by almost all ME countries and are considered as privileged people.

I am genuinely intrigued by people here repeatedly make it sounds they have first hand knowledge that ME treats the higher class pilots like the lower class street cleaners. Since I don't have direct knowledge of the contract, maybe some poster here made the claim can shed some lights to people like me who do not know the full story?


1: Yes, and it’s not worth the price of the paper it is written on. Employee relations is a solid one-way street, where the employer can and will change any element of a contract if they feel like it.
2: Yes. Give you an example: QR has a ranking structure that goes from 1 to 13; 1 is the tea boy and 13 is AAB himself. Grade 10 and above are VP, SVP, EVP, C-suite. In their HR department they have two people dedicated to handling grade 10s and above who gets fired. Fired. Tells you all you need to know about how toxic the working environment is.
3: I’ve no idea what you mean by this
4: Yes, several. One got fired for carrying out a missed approach, which just happened to have a local SVP onboard who didn’t like the “delay” it caused. Another voiced his displeasure with a contract change, which meant more work for less pay, and was escorted by security to his home. They found stationary (a pen and a block of paper) carrying the company logo, and was fired for theft of company property. He had attended a training course and had brought his notes (the block of paper) and the pen with him when the training ended. As had every single other attendant at that training course.

And for the part I’ve highlighted, it takes the price for providing the laugh of the day. You’re so far off in that assessment it doesn’t even come close to describing realities. Sure, they’d like to portray themselves as being all modern, and they sure knows how to spend money buying all the most modern and fancy kit. But they are not, and anybody who’s not a local is regarded as nothing but hired help, easily replaced hired help at that. Or, in other words, a necessary evil they wished they could do without, but for various reasons can’t. Pilots are universally hated by the management of ME3, and are as from being “highly regarded” as can possibly be. You are right they are regarded as privileged, and that’s just one more reason they are hated.

Trust this has brought the enlightenment you were looking for.


And yet not one single member of ME3 crew has been forced to work there against their will. * shrug *
 
Desertboki
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:42 pm

santi319 wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
A few strange things as pointed out above but also surely the pilots wouldn’t be fired straight away. Perhaps stood down pending further investigation but fired on the spot before everything is determined? Really?

You obviously haven't had the "pleasure" of working for a ME3. The simple fact is if you are terminated then there is no problem. Issue solved. Forget everything you know about workers' rights.

Thiss, the ME3 are NOT regulated at all like the rest of the west, people forget that. Heck, people even completely forget about the Flydubai accident in Rostov, which was 100% the airline and the regulations over there ‘s fault. Not even a word on it.

That area of the world is known to hide anything for their image.


So very true Santi. None of them have learned a single thing since Rostov. The GCAA are a joke.
 
Noshow
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:45 pm

Back to the incident please, what exactly happened? Wrong FMS weight input? Wrong flap setting? What prevents a T7 from lifting off? They won't rotate on flight director or autopilot for sure. Confusing. And what got damaged (claim/report by AVH) on the aircraft? Tailstrike?
 
chonetsao
Posts: 1170
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:06 pm

B777LRF wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I have a set of question for all posters who claim [one would loose job at the ME3 for whatever reasons].

My questions are:
1, Have you seen the employment contract between the pilot and the airline?
2, Have you had direct knowledge of local employment laws in UAE or Qatar?
3, Have you seen the company procurement of ME3?
4, Do you know any pilot personally that was fired for no reason from ME3 (please do not include those fired during pandemic or Etihad that was downsizing, those are different from the case here)?

Please understand that I am not trying to defending ME3 and the general knowledge of lack of workers right in middle east, especially if you are a domestic helper or working in the lowest income jobs, or if you are from certain undesirable regions considered by the host nations.

But all ME3 are modern companies based on modern airline structures. Pilots are highly regarded professionals by almost all ME countries and are considered as privileged people.

I am genuinely intrigued by people here repeatedly make it sounds they have first hand knowledge that ME treats the higher class pilots like the lower class street cleaners. Since I don't have direct knowledge of the contract, maybe some poster here made the claim can shed some lights to people like me who do not know the full story?


1: Yes, and it’s not worth the price of the paper it is written on. Employee relations is a solid one-way street, where the employer can and will change any element of a contract if they feel like it.
2: Yes. Give you an example: QR has a ranking structure that goes from 1 to 13; 1 is the tea boy and 13 is AAB himself. Grade 10 and above are VP, SVP, EVP, C-suite. In their HR department they have two people dedicated to handling grade 10s and above who gets fired. Fired. Tells you all you need to know about how toxic the working environment is.
3: I’ve no idea what you mean by this
4: Yes, several. One got fired for carrying out a missed approach, which just happened to have a local SVP onboard who didn’t like the “delay” it caused. Another voiced his displeasure with a contract change, which meant more work for less pay, and was escorted by security to his home. They found stationary (a pen and a block of paper) carrying the company logo, and was fired for theft of company property. He had attended a training course and had brought his notes (the block of paper) and the pen with him when the training ended. As had every single other attendant at that training course.

And for the part I’ve highlighted, it takes the price for providing the laugh of the day. You’re so far off in that assessment it doesn’t even come close to describing realities. Sure, they’d like to portray themselves as being all modern, and they sure knows how to spend money buying all the most modern and fancy kit. But they are not, and anybody who’s not a local is regarded as nothing but hired help, easily replaced hired help at that. Or, in other words, a necessary evil they wished they could do without, but for various reasons can’t. Pilots are universally hated by the management of ME3, and are as from being “highly regarded” as can possibly be. You are right they are regarded as privileged, and that’s just one more reason they are hated.

Trust this has brought the enlightenment you were looking for.


Let me understand what you just said. So you are suggesting ME3 airlines are not in a modern company structure. What is your evidence? I mean, what is the difference between the ME3 and Korean Air which is ran by a family that a daughter of the company founder can cause misery to many?

Then you suggest that pilot is not privileged position in ME countries and think I am being stupid to suggest that (hence make you laugh). I find it hard to believe. As you suggested, Qatar has the grade of 1 to 13, where as teaboy is grade 1 and the big mouth CEO as top of 13. So where is pilot's grade? Grade 7, 8 or 9 I assume? If so, it is indeed pilots are a privileged class in the labour structure of ME countries. Because they only need to answer to few very high up people while have many more underneath them. As I said, I am not dispute the labour malpractice of ME countries. What I am trying to understand is how pilots as privileged class (Upper middle class) in ME countries are treated.

Finally you gave some examples. I found it interesting.

I can't comment the missed approach. But I found the two other cases interesting. So when contract change, the pilot effectively told the employer he is not happy for the new contract. Was not that normal for any western company to say that you can either sign the contract or leave? If he is not happy with the company why would he continue to fly for this company while the airline knows full well that he is not happy? You know pilot unhappy or depressed can be a big issue for flight safety.

Then the third case, taking company properties. I can think of BA's famous case against a Scotland based highly paid inflight manager. She was fired for taking leftover drinks after flight. Everyone else is doing that, according to online forums. And she was the one got fired.

Now, before you go on defensive, may I reassure you that I am not challenge what you said. I simply throw out some of my questions and ideas as I don't know the inside of these ME3 airlines. Your knowledge and experience is very much appreciated. However, that being said, we know it is very true that ME countries have a very outdated or often discriminatory class system, employees were treated badly depended on their job and where they were from. I still find it hard to believe that pilots are fired at the spot without proper litigation. For instance, there is a Labour Court system in several UAE emirates that handles disputes.

Finally my next question is, if it is so bad, why so many pilots still rush to ME3 and sign up to the contracts they desperately showing displeasure with? Don't they know what they sign up to?
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:11 pm

It seems strange that they didn't think to rotate until they reached 235 knots. The flight director is there to help, but it seems common sense to rotate once you hit an appropriate speed if the indication doesn't come up.

I imagine that if the plane performed the return leg without problems, the only "damage" is a possible tire overspeed. I'm sure if they hit something the plane would have been grounded at IAD.
Last edited by peterinlisbon on Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RogerMurdock
Posts: 187
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:16 pm

The suspected damage was due to overspeed at low altitude with flaps out, not a collision with anything. The aircraft was flown very low and fast over Dubai because the PF was blindly following the Flight Director which for some reason had altitude set to 0000.
 
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BobMUC
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:49 pm

Reminds me a little bid on this incident back in 2009:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_407
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:09 pm

Noshow wrote:
Back to the incident please, what exactly happened? Wrong FMS weight input? Wrong flap setting? What prevents a T7 from lifting off? They won't rotate on flight director or autopilot for sure. Confusing. And what got damaged (claim/report by AVH) on the aircraft? Tailstrike?


It is confusing. From Avherald

On Dec 27th 2021 Emirates Airlines released a crew alert to their pilots following the occurrence suggesting the crew had not picked up the previous flight crew had left the altitude setting at the Master Control Panel at airport elevation/00000 feet causing the flight director to not indicate takeoff rotation and climb out but instead indicate to maintain that altitude (ALT mode).


That looks like a clue regarding the altitude setting that sets the flight director. Altitude setting on the MCP (mode control panel) is on the before start checklist for a 777.

A great reference for those unfamiliar with the normal procedures for flying a 777

http://www.infinidim.org/777-normal-pro ... w-diagrams

MCP V2, HDG/TRK and ALT should be called as selected, and verified appropriate. This includes the V1 (PFD vs CDU), V2 as displayed on the PFD (not just the MCP/CDU), an appropriate heading/track selection for the departure, and an Altitude selection appropriate for the (expected/cleared) departure clearance.


Image
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:11 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Something doesn’t add up, wouldn’t the plane still be in manual control this early into the flight? Not familiar with the 777 flight systems.


Some pilots engage the automation as soon as the wheels are up, but not sure on specific planes and their differences. There was a famous quip about Asiana several years ago that the autopilot would do virtually everything on the plane.


I don’t believe you can engage the autopilot at below 400 feet
 
eaa3
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:42 pm

qf789 wrote:
There are reports coming in that on the 20th December 21 EK231 operating DXB-IAD was involved in a serious incident on departure

Below are the key points involved in the incident though some of it is unconfirmed at this point in time

EK231 operated by 77W A6-EQI
Aircraft departed DXB with flight director set at 0 feet instead of an altitude 4000 feet, according to attached article pilots forgot to set flight director at an altitude of 4000 feet
Aircraft pitched downwards after takeoff at one point was traveling at 262 knots at 175 feet ASL
It is alleged the aircraft sustained damaged though continued to IAD and operated the return flight back to DXB, though the return flight was delayed
It is also unconfirmed that all 4 pilots have been fired
FAA said to be investigating the incident

https://onemileatatime.com/news/emirate ... per-footer


Why fire the pilots that weren't operating?
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:53 pm

santi319 wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
A few strange things as pointed out above but also surely the pilots wouldn’t be fired straight away. Perhaps stood down pending further investigation but fired on the spot before everything is determined? Really?

You obviously haven't had the "pleasure" of working for a ME3. The simple fact is if you are terminated then there is no problem. Issue solved. Forget everything you know about workers' rights.

Thiss, the ME3 are NOT regulated at all like the rest of the west, people forget that. Heck, people even completely forget about the Flydubai accident in Rostov, which was 100% the airline and the regulations over there ‘s fault. Not even a word on it.

That area of the world is known to hide anything for their image.


Not true. A LOT has happened and changed as a result. And all for the better. Trust me.
 
DMPHL
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:37 pm

LHAM wrote:
What sort of damage could be sustained from this?
Tires maybe because of the higher speed while on tarmac?


Normal operations do not usually involve high speed flight at low altitude. This would most definitely be an overspeed situation, in which there is a possibility the aircraft (including aero elements like wings, vertical stabilizer, etc.) could have sustained structural damage.

N14AZ wrote:
kalvado wrote:
LHAM wrote:
What sort of damage could be sustained from this?
Tires maybe because of the higher speed while on tarmac?

Could easily be some damage to the underside of the plane from antennas, and hopefully not something more substantial like trees.
75 feet agl above houses... Even with single floors may mean rooftop antennas or weather wanes could be collected, or pieces of roof could hit something.

But this aircraft flew all the way to Washington and also the return flight to DXB. Either the „damage“ was very minor or … well.


Even if the damage was minor, or there was no damage, I can't imagine, say, a pilot at BA or UA or LH electing to continue on a 14-hour flight after a rotation past the runway threshold, flying at high speed at low altitude, and pitch event. The assumption has to be that something is wrong with the plane, and that they have to return to the airport.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
And yet not one single member of ME3 crew has been forced to work there against their will. * shrug *


People go where the work is. Lots of people at the ME3 were there because of bankruptcy/furlough/other situations beyond their control, and not a burning desire to work there.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:14 pm

The flight director has got nothing to do with the take off
The take off is done by sight and the rotation is at a specific rotation speed
It has zero to do with the flight directer
You pith smoothly at Vr, rotation speed, to a pitch attitude of around 15 degrees
That’s it

After that, then you will look for the flight director
 
kalvado
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:14 pm

DMPHL wrote:
LHAM wrote:
What sort of damage could be sustained from this?
Tires maybe because of the higher speed while on tarmac?


Normal operations do not usually involve high speed flight at low altitude. This would most definitely be an overspeed situation, in which there is a possibility the aircraft (including aero elements like wings, vertical stabilizer, etc.) could have sustained structural damage.

Was there any high speed situation? If they used flaps 5, their reported speed of 234 knots is just shy of the 235 knot limit. Could be flaps 15, though.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:44 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
scbriml wrote:
And yet not one single member of ME3 crew has been forced to work there against their will. * shrug *


People go where the work is. Lots of people at the ME3 were there because of bankruptcy/furlough/other situations beyond their control, and not a burning desire to work there.


Doesn't change the fact that none of them were kidnapped or press-ganged into working for the ME3. They made a conscious decision and should have been very aware of the potential consequences of that decision. * shrug *
 
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zkojq
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:14 pm

Similar thing happened to a Singapore 777 taking off from Shanghai a few years ago, though from memory in that case the Altitude Window was set to 200ft, causing an over speed incident and a lot of confusion.

I wonder how fatigued the crew were at the time of the incident. Will be interesting to see what the NTSB finds if they look into how many hours the crew have flown (vs logged) in the past 30 days...


LoganTheBogan wrote:
A few strange things as pointed out above but also surely the pilots wouldn’t be fired straight away. Perhaps stood down pending further investigation but fired on the spot before everything is determined? Really?


Uh yeah, this is Emirates and that's how things work there (and at most of the rest of the ME3, let's be honest). EK407's crew were dismissed as soon as they arrived back (as pax) to Dubai. Same with the Qatar 777 crew involved in the overrun at Miami.

https://www.dohanews.co/report-qatar-ai ... -incident/

You can see from his quote just how important setting a positive safety culture is to the QR CEO /s :roll:

The simple fact is if you are terminated then there is no problem. Issue solved. Forget everything you know about workers' rights.

:checkmark:

santi319 wrote:
Thiss, the ME3 are NOT regulated at all like the rest of the west, people forget that. Heck, people even completely forget about the Flydubai accident in Rostov, which was 100% the airline and the regulations over there ‘s fault. Not even a word on it.


:checkmark:

From memory the head of the GCAA at that time was also the CEO of FlyDubai at the time.

It's sad how the same happened with EK407: the UAE lobbied hard to have everything in the preliminary report that made Emirates look bad removed. And the ATSB relented, which was incredibly disappointing. Rostering, MFF issues, fatigue, all removed.


chonetsao wrote:
1, Have you seen the employment contract between the pilot and the airline?

2, Have you had direct knowledge of local employment laws in UAE or Qatar?


You're not aware that the airline can change the contract without the employees consent? Do you also think that the hundreds and hundreds of flightcrew laid off were paid the redundancy pay stipulated in their contracts? :lol:

Theseus wrote:
Where do opportunities to learn from the mishap go ? Also, what message does it send to the crews that may observe a (less obvious) mishap and should report so that all the community can learn of it ? (if you cover it up you may keep your job unless someone else notices).


And that's the crux of the issue here: a punitive safety culture vs an open safety culture. Unfortunately an open safety culture is often completely at odds with trying to save face.

FlapOperator wrote:
People go where the work is. Lots of people at the ME3 were there because of bankruptcy/furlough/other situations beyond their control, and not a burning desire to work there.


:checkmark:

And once you are there, it's very difficult to get out. Leaving process is very difficult and exit visas can be complicated. Even if you don't have a new job lined up it's difficult dragging the family out. And whilst I don't believe it's still the case, there was definitely a time when the most "popular" way for QR crew who didn't have family in the Gulf to leave was to simply go AWOL during a layover. Bit difficult to do that now with hotel room confinement on layover, I guess.

And if you do want to find a job before you leave, the nonfunctional PBS system makes using leave to fly overseas for a job interview neigh on impossible. Took one guy 13 months of trying before he was able to actually use his leave to get to one of my recruitment sessions (and IIRC he wasn't even able to use staff travel for it).

Not much of a surprise that "EK resignation tips" is the longest thread in PPRUNE history. ;)
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:14 pm

scbriml wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
scbriml wrote:
And yet not one single member of ME3 crew has been forced to work there against their will. * shrug *


People go where the work is. Lots of people at the ME3 were there because of bankruptcy/furlough/other situations beyond their control, and not a burning desire to work there.


Doesn't change the fact that none of them were kidnapped or press-ganged into working for the ME3. They made a conscious decision and should have been very aware of the potential consequences of that decision. * shrug *


Go work there and then we talk again.
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:16 pm

Desertboki wrote:
santi319 wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
You obviously haven't had the "pleasure" of working for a ME3. The simple fact is if you are terminated then there is no problem. Issue solved. Forget everything you know about workers' rights.

Thiss, the ME3 are NOT regulated at all like the rest of the west, people forget that. Heck, people even completely forget about the Flydubai accident in Rostov, which was 100% the airline and the regulations over there ‘s fault. Not even a word on it.

That area of the world is known to hide anything for their image.


So very true Santi. None of them have learned a single thing since Rostov. The GCAA are a joke.


The GCAA bends the rules to help their own airlines.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:00 pm

sixfootscream wrote:
Go work there and then we talk again.


:lol: Been there, done that, etc. I've worked and lived extensively in the Middle East & North Africa - Dubai, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Libya & Algeria, I know how stuff works there. Next?

Nobody working for the ME3 had a gun pointed to their head, they chose to go work there.
 
TravelForum
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:18 pm

Can we just talk about the actual incident/event that occurred and leave the rest (politics/local culture/customs) out of this. At this point, I don't care who was fired (or not) -- I want to learn more about what happened.
 
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zeke
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:40 pm

BobMUC wrote:
Reminds me a little bid on this incident back in 2009:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_407


Reminds me of an even earlier incident https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/147120


scbriml wrote:
sixfootscream wrote:
Go work there and then we talk again.


:lol: Been there, done that, etc. I've worked and lived extensively in the Middle East & North Africa - Dubai, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Libya & Algeria, I know how stuff works there. Next?

Nobody working for the ME3 had a gun pointed to their head, they chose to go work there.


Your contributions are not helpful as they are not relevant to the aviation industry. The majority of people working in the Middle East are there out of necessity. For example pilots from South Africa can hardly go back home to work.

In other industries, you do 10 years working overseas and come back home you are generally rewarded for doing so, both in terms of pay and promotion. As a pilot you will star at the bottom entry level again.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:37 pm

Did the mode they were in by not setting the altitude inhibit any automated V1 and Rotate calls that should have happened?

Regardless - the crew should still be monitoring those speeds anyway with the non flying pilot (and maybe the other two who would/should have been in the jump seats and paying attention) calling them out even if the automation didn't. If none of them called it out - that's why the discipline most likely (whether or not you agree with it).
 
kalvado
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:52 pm

Is it possible that, besides human factors, some obscure automation factor prevented them from rotating?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Emirates serious incident on takeoff on EK231 DXB-IAD on 20 December 2021

Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:05 am

No, unless they engaged the autopilot on the take-off roll, if that can be done might. Pull back, the houses get smaller.

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