Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audio/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:06 am

Happened about 715 PST, 1015EST...
N880Z, owned by MedJet, LLC. Appears to be a subscription-based air Medical Transport company.

This one is a tough one to hear, so advanced warning is given.

Appears to be classic base-to-final turn stall and roll, the Lear is sleek, very fast, but unforgiving if you get too slow, while pulling the elevator into a tight turn. Same thing happened at Teterboro a few years ago, while circling to land. Pilot requested more lights, but was informed that they were already at max intensity.

Weather was 3,500 overcast, 2500 broken with rain at the time of the incident.

Audio:
Warning, this one could shake you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=LL9nO035iRk

Video of the crash:
https://rumble.com/vrikzb-plane-crashes ... diego.html

Aftermath:
https://twitter.com/Kaala_Nag/status/14 ... 6991578118
https://www.kusi.com/plane-plunges-into ... ing-storm/
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11194
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:20 am

Very sad. Sounds like a young-ish guy, too.

Interesting that he chose to switch to VFR and then didn't go around when he couldn't visually-identify the airport. Seems like he went from a high-workload situation into a very-high-workload situation but figured he could still get 'er in.

I'm sure our friend Juan Browne will have some great insights on this over at the Blancolirio Channel in a day or two, even though he is snowed-in at his brother's house and running on generator.

EDIT: Just looking at it, it's interesting. They're IFR for RWY 17, and cleared to land. They then ask to cancel IFR and switch landing runway to 27R. They pass over the airport at about 700 feet, climb a smidge to 800, and then make left traffic, but just on the face of it, it would seem like their left turn from the runway heading is awfully-tight to give them enough space to line up and land on 27R. Last radar return is at 56 degrees at about halfway along the arc between rwy 17 and 27R.

Also, I don't know what that metallic noise is in the background while the pilot is crying out. There may be more involved (as there often is) than what it appears at first blush. I also don't have a clear first impression from the Nest camera that documents the crash. Just horrible all around.
Last edited by wjcandee on Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:44 am

It’s a rainy evening in San Diego and generally overcast with a few light showers this afternoon. The choice to switch to VFR is a strange one.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11194
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:54 am

Also, for what it's worth, I think that the Med Jet LLC [two words] of El Cahon that owned this aircraft may well be different than the Medjet of Alabama that provides a kind of medical air transport insurance membership. The full name of the latter is Medjet Assistance LLC, and it's home office is Birmingham, AL. This Med Jet LLC gives an address of 15131 Chad Rd. in El Cahon.

Also, the fact that the entity that owns the aircraft is based in El Cahon might mean that the aircraft is based at El Cahon (the intended destination airport), and the pilots might have been quite familiar with the approach. This may have been a factor in their decisionmaking. (Update: from the Flightaware logs of this aircraft, it's pretty-clearly based at KSEE.)

Just a little more info. It looks like the LLC that owns the aircraft is a single-owner operation, using the home address of its managing member as its business address, because the address for the LLC on the Aircraft Registration and with the California Secretary of State is the home address of a Richard John Jones, who has a ground instructor certificate dating back to 1970, a flight engineer certificate from 2007, and the following airman ratings:

Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
Date of Issue: 7/11/2008

Ratings:
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

Type Ratings:
A/A-300 A/B-727 A/B-757 A/B-767 A/B-777
A/CE-500 A/DC-9 A/DC-10 A/EA-500S A/LR-JET

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.
B-757 B-767 B-777 CIRC. APCH. - VMC ONLY.

This aircraft has been flying all over the country, almost-daily, for at least the last month. As far East as Roanoke and TEB. Its trips up to November 22 were basically KSEE-ORIGIN-DESTINATION-KSEE. But from November 22 until December 23, it was all over the country, never coming home, then seemed to go back to trips from KSEE on December 23.

On Sunday, started at 7am and flew SEE-LAS-BUR-SEE. Then Monday flew SEE-HII (Lake Havasu City)-SNA and was on its way home. Left SEE at 2pm and was to be back in SEE about 7:15pm.

We'll have a good thought for the crew and their families tonight.
Last edited by wjcandee on Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:23 am, edited 7 times in total.
 
User avatar
SilverwingSpttr
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:07 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:55 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
It’s a rainy evening in San Diego and generally overcast with a few light showers this afternoon. The choice to switch to VFR is a strange one.


Agreed, especially considering it was Marginal VFR at best. Such a tragic event.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 698
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:16 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
It’s a rainy evening in San Diego and generally overcast with a few light showers this afternoon. The choice to switch to VFR is a strange one.


What were the winds doing at the time of the accident? Looks like 17 is 1000’ or so shorter than 27R… though I’m not sure why they wouldn’t have requested an approach to 27R if the wind was really a decision making factor
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:48 am

joeblow10 wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
It’s a rainy evening in San Diego and generally overcast with a few light showers this afternoon. The choice to switch to VFR is a strange one.


What were the winds doing at the time of the accident? Looks like 17 is 1000’ or so shorter than 27R… though I’m not sure why they wouldn’t have requested an approach to 27R if the wind was really a decision making factor

Worried about the stopping distance on a Wet runway, perhaps?
Last edited by FlyingElvii on Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11194
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:49 am

It looks like there's a LOC-D approach to the airport that brings you in over the hills to the east of the airport and requires you to maintain about 4000 feet until you're 7.5 miles from the 27R runway, I think. Then there's an RNAV (GPS) approach to Runway 17 that brings you in from the north over much less terrain, which appears to be what they were following coming down from SNA. Going to an IFR approach to 27R from where they were might have been seen as a PITA, if they could circle to land on 27R. There are some night circling restrictions, it appears, but I guess this wasn't one of them.

Bottom line is that this is an airport and an approach which one would assume they were familiar with.

From the owner's type ratings, I initially thought his resume looked like a career at two possible airlines, including one freight carrier, but the DC9 on there makes it look more like Continental (although if an MD80 is flown under a DC9 rating, it could also be AA).
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14726
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:39 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Happened about 715 PST, 1015EST...
N880Z, owned by MedJet, LLC. Appears to be a subscription-based air Medical Transport company.

This one is a tough one to hear, so advanced warning is given.

Appears to be classic base-to-final turn stall and roll, the Lear is sleek, very fast, but unforgiving if you get too slow, while pulling the elevator into a tight turn. Same thing happened at Teterboro a few years ago, while circling to land. Pilot requested more lights, but was informed that they were already at max intensity.

Weather was 3,500 overcast, 2500 broken with rain at the time of the incident.

Audio:
Warning, this one could shake you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=LL9nO035iRk

Video of the crash:
https://rumble.com/vrikzb-plane-crashes ... diego.html

Aftermath:
https://twitter.com/Kaala_Nag/status/14 ... 6991578118
https://www.kusi.com/plane-plunges-into ... ing-storm/


Doesn't seem to be any Cockpit warnings in the audio and happens so fast. Wouldn't he have had some warning and chance to recover?
 
RalXWB
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:24 am

36 year old plane...
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:21 am

2nd noteworthy crash at SEE this year.
 
canyonblue17
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:11 pm

My photo of the Learjet from a few years ago. Sad.

 
bennett123
Posts: 10927
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:26 pm

Sounds like it was so sudden that he had no time to react.
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:57 pm

It looks like he was barely clear of the clouds but it appeared to be a pretty steep bank angle on that security video. It looks sadly similar to the TEB accident. RIP.
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:04 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Audio:
Warning, this one could shake you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=LL9nO035iRk


Do people really have nothing better to do with their lives than to turn someone's death into a video game reenactment?
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:18 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Audio:
Warning, this one could shake you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=LL9nO035iRk


Do people really have nothing better to do with their lives than to turn someone's death into a video game reenactment?


There must be significant demand amongst aviation buffs for accident simulation content - on YouTube the number of such videos has increased exponentially in the last couple years. Some of them are surprisingly accurate, to the extent that an at-home flight simulator can be. The NTSB has been using computer visualizations for years.

Keep in mind many of these YouTube channels are receiving financial compensation via ad revenues for creating this content. Is that ethical? Perhaps not, but how is it different from our local news stations? - “If it bleeds, it leads.”
 
D L X
Posts: 12729
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:46 pm

He asks for runway lights to be increased, and the ATC tells him they are all the way up. Is it possible he thought he had the airport in sight, but was actually looking at something else, disorienting him?
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:05 pm

D L X wrote:
He asks for runway lights to be increased, and the ATC tells him they are all the way up. Is it possible he thought he had the airport in sight, but was actually looking at something else, disorienting him?

From the ADSB data, it looks like he was overshooting the turn to final at approximately the same altitude as the top of the hill. Likely pulled on the elevator to tighten the radius and went into an accelerated stall.

Low, slow, and in a tight turn is not where you want to be in a Lear, stall speed increases significantly with bank angle, even more so in a plane that has short, thin, stubby wings with small flaps and no slats, built for speed, not slow maneuvering. This is far from the first stall-spin at low altitude in a Lear over the years.

He should have poured on the coal and reset for a normal approach. But, he was likely familiar with the airport, the airplane, and had likely done this exact thing before, only this time the snake bit him.

Normalization of deviance…..
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:06 pm

Weather was VRB 05 5SM 20BKN 26BKN, so marginal VFR. Crew evidently canceled the IFR after the GPS 17 to fly a visual to 27R. Circling is not authorized at night there.

EDIT: 17 is the short runway 4145’, the pattern was flown to the longest runway there.
 
User avatar
CarlosSi
Posts: 890
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:04 pm

Dang, Rest in Peace. Wasn't quite expecting to hear someone freak out on the radio (normally that's when the finger comes off the mike).

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Weather was VRB 05 5SM 20BKN 26BKN, so marginal VFR. Crew evidently canceled the IFR after the GPS 17 to fly a visual to 27R. Circling is not authorized at night there.

EDIT: 17 is the short runway 4145’, the pattern was flown to the longest runway there.


Could they have landed straight in to 17? RNAV 9L is NA to categories C and D and the LOC-D is steeeep.

Not that they couldn't have circled to land successfully, but typically even "irrelevant chains" or breaking the rules tends to lead to a successful accident.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:31 pm

On a dry day, 4145’ is too short for a 35.
 
pugman211
Posts: 591
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:37 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Very sad. Sounds like a young-ish guy, too.

Also, I don't know what that metallic noise is in the background while the pilot is crying out. There may be more involved (as there often is) than what it appears at first blush. I also don't have a clear first impression from the Nest camera that documents the crash. Just horrible all around.


Is that metallic noise possibly a vibration? Like stall buffet (if that's the correct terminology)
 
highflier92660
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:49 pm

From his aviation certificates and Type Rating résumé I wouldn't be surprised if the aircraft owner was well past Part 121 retirement age. According to the database he also owns a Lear 55, N55FJ.

That sounded like a young Lear 35A crew. Any perceived stick shaker sounds on that (final moments) audio recording or base-to-final stall conjecture is a bit premature.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:52 pm

Do we know who was actually flying it?
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:53 pm

pugman211 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Very sad. Sounds like a young-ish guy, too.

Also, I don't know what that metallic noise is in the background while the pilot is crying out. There may be more involved (as there often is) than what it appears at first blush. I also don't have a clear first impression from the Nest camera that documents the crash. Just horrible all around.


Is that metallic noise possibly a vibration? Like stall buffet (if that's the correct terminology)


I don’t think the FSX video recreation accurately depicts the actual attitude/altitude of the aircraft. My guess is those sounds are when they were starting to impact higher obstructions such as trees and power lines before hitting terrain. It’s an absolute nightmare scenario that unfolded in the blink of an eye.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27389
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:17 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
There must be significant demand amongst aviation buffs for accident simulation content - on YouTube the number of such videos has increased exponentially in the last couple years. Some of them are surprisingly accurate, to the extent that an at-home flight simulator can be. The NTSB has been using computer visualizations for years.

I've noticed the same trend. I presume creating the content isn't tremendously difficult once you learn how to plug in a flight path to a flight sim program. Find the wiki page for the accident, it'll lead you to the accident report, then creating a narration isn't too difficult. Google around to find a few photos and other accounts of the accident to help move things along. The algorithms don't lie, there is an audience for the content, regardless of if some people find it creepy that this content is being watched.

I've watched several of these videos, and don't feel like I'm watching it to take in other people's deaths. If anything, I'm feeling I'm watching it to see if I can't learn how to avoid similar tragedies in the future and am feeling sympathy for everyone involved. I won't listen to the audio with the warning above, I really don't want to be creeped out.
 
OldB747Driver
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Weather was VRB 05 5SM 20BKN 26BKN, so marginal VFR. Crew evidently canceled the IFR after the GPS 17 to fly a visual to 27R. Circling is not authorized at night there.

EDIT: 17 is the short runway 4145’, the pattern was flown to the longest runway there.

Yessir GalaxyFlyer, those are definitely factors in this accident.

It is clear to me that this pilot was well aware of the IFR restrictions to this approach (Circling 27R NA at night) because of the very deliberate IFR cancellation before requesting runway 27R, as well as not authorized to the NE (where a close-in obstacle exists ~150ft below circling mins?), which would likely make a familiar pilot aware that an overshoot would put the aircraft below that altitude while descending for 27R might have been the motivation to tighten a misjudged "base" turn...
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
There must be significant demand amongst aviation buffs for accident simulation content - on YouTube the number of such videos has increased exponentially in the last couple years. Some of them are surprisingly accurate, to the extent that an at-home flight simulator can be. The NTSB has been using computer visualizations for years.

I've noticed the same trend. I presume creating the content isn't tremendously difficult once you learn how to plug in a flight path to a flight sim program. Find the wiki page for the accident, it'll lead you to the accident report, then creating a narration isn't too difficult. Google around to find a few photos and other accounts of the accident to help move things along. The algorithms don't lie, there is an audience for the content, regardless of if some people find it creepy that this content is being watched.

I've watched several of these videos, and don't feel like I'm watching it to take in other people's deaths. If anything, I'm feeling I'm watching it to see if I can't learn how to avoid similar tragedies in the future and am feeling sympathy for everyone involved. I won't listen to the audio with the warning above, I really don't want to be creeped out.


I totally agree with your sentiment - there can be a positive, educational aspect if it is done right. AOPA has published an excellent series of accident videos that are intended to highlight safety issues for private pilots. As far as I can tell, they’re using a program like FSX or XPlane for the visuals.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27389
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:39 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
I totally agree with your sentiment - there can be a positive, educational aspect if it is done right. AOPA has published an excellent series of accident videos that are intended to highlight safety issues for private pilots. As far as I can tell, they’re using a program like FSX or XPlane for the visuals.

Yes, the AOPA content has worked its way into my feed as well. I will also say that like it or not, one can learn from both positive and negative feedback. Sometimes fear does the work of reason.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6661
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:42 pm

One of the most dangerous things to do in an automated jet is to change your runway on final.

Very sad.
 
codc10
Posts: 3300
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:52 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
One of the most dangerous things to do in an automated jet is to change your runway on final.

Very sad.


Not a great deal of automation in the LJ35, though. Some, but the procedure was necessarily visual, hand flown. Combination of possible inexperience, terrain, and a tricky airplane to fly in a low energy state are contributory.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:09 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Do we know who was actually flying it?


If I were a betting man I'd guess the audio was from the non-flying pilot. At this point in my life I wouldn't have the talent to perform the spool-up-roll-pitch-power boogie, all while keying the mic in the last seconds of that recording.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4666
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:11 pm

D L X wrote:
He asks for runway lights to be increased, and the ATC tells him they are all the way up. Is it possible he thought he had the airport in sight, but was actually looking at something else, disorienting him?


Spatial disorientation is a strong possibility in this one I suspect. Once he came out of the clouds in that bank he was in, he realized his mistake? So sad.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:16 pm

Funny thing, not in a laughing sense, is cancelling IFR and “circling” (visual pattern) is a work around whose father is the Lear 35 accident at KTEB. N90 and KTEB would clear arrivals to “circle” at TORBY which is outside of the circling protected airspace. It was done in good weather to speed the flow and avoid KEWR traffic. The close cousin is the Lear overrun doing the same circle that’s not a circle at KDPA last winter, at night, rain and wind.

If charter and private operations are criticized for being “dangerous” it’s because they try or have to do things no airline would be allowed to fly. As Dick Collins would say, “the operation is hazardous, not the plane or the airport”.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:18 pm

F9Animal wrote:
D L X wrote:
He asks for runway lights to be increased, and the ATC tells him they are all the way up. Is it possible he thought he had the airport in sight, but was actually looking at something else, disorienting him?


Spatial disorientation is a strong possibility in this one I suspect. Once he came out of the clouds in that bank he was in, he realized his mistake? So sad.


I doubt that, he broke into VMC and cancelled IFR, he was visual but may have lost sight of the airport.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:30 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Funny thing, not in a laughing sense, is cancelling IFR and “circling” (visual pattern) is a work around whose father is the Lear 35 accident at KTEB. N90 and KTEB would clear arrivals to “circle” at TORBY which is outside of the circling protected airspace. It was done in good weather to speed the flow and avoid KEWR traffic. The close cousin is the Lear overrun doing the same circle that’s not a circle at KDPA last winter, at night, rain and wind.

If charter and private operations are criticized for being “dangerous” it’s because they try or have to do things no airline would be allowed to fly. As Dick Collins would say, “the operation is hazardous, not the plane or the airport”.


The Truckee Challenger accident is another good example, almost the same weather and terrain conditions.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:33 pm

F9Animal wrote:
D L X wrote:
He asks for runway lights to be increased, and the ATC tells him they are all the way up. Is it possible he thought he had the airport in sight, but was actually looking at something else, disorienting him?


Spatial disorientation is a strong possibility in this one I suspect. Once he came out of the clouds in that bank he was in, he realized his mistake? So sad.

IMHO, not really....
He overcorrected instead into an accelerated stall, instead of resetting. As has been drilled into pilot's heads since the Wright Brothers, "You can always go around".
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:46 pm

The video from the door bell/security cam is interesting - it looks like the aircraft is nearly inverted judging by the orientation of the rear NAV lights and the Beacon. Would he have been deep into the stall at that point? And assuming I am viewing the orientation correctly, he started to come out of the roll but went into a steep dive at the end. Perhaps it was an unsuccessful effort at stall recovery.

Reportedly four souls on board. RIP.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... -diego?amp
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11194
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:07 pm

I just want to thank those of our members posting here who are or have been bizjet pilots. The special knowledge you bring to the table about operations at some of these lively-but-smaller airports is invaluable, and I greatly appreciate your taking the time to provide thoughtful commentary.

Sad to see there were 4 onboard. All would presumably be crew because this was a return from a "live" leg. Awful.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11194
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:28 pm

To me -- and admittedly this is waaay premature -- it seems like, as he comes into the frame on the second Nest video, he is still flying, and he is in the left turn the we know he was making. Some think he seems low, but he was intentionally flying, it appears, at about 350 feet AGL if I'm doing the math right (800 feet MSL) while making the turn, so that looks about right. Neighbors must love it when small jets do that over their houses. Then, within a matter of moments, he does seem to depart from the vertical path while still in the turn and there's an explosion just a second or so thereafter. The actual period between loss of control and impact seems to be just a couple of seconds. I can see why FlyingElvii postulates what he does in his thread-starting post.

I think there's a tendency of the human psyche to want there to be something consequential as the cause of a dramatic accident that takes several lives. From the Kennedy assassination to the car wreck that took the life of a pal back home when I was like 15, or when another childhood pal died in her Citabria while practicing stunts when I was like 21, one somehow wants a highly-consequential result to have an equivalently-consequential cause.

This accident is in some way the aviation equivalent of a car entering a curve that's covered in black ice, and going straight into trees at 50 mph. Happened fast. Happened for reasons, but not good or big ones. Could have been prevented by more-cautious conduct, but nothing one can do take the conduct back.

Hard to wrap one's mind around.
 
kbmiflyer
Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:47 pm

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:58 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
2nd noteworthy crash at SEE this year.


Not disagreeing but the other crash earlier this year the plane was attempting to land at nearby KMYF - but the actual crash was closer to KSEE and original speculation was the crash was associated with Gillespie airport.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:30 pm

You’re welcome, wjcandee,

I’m still in the business, mostly doing SMS consulting. The first and most important fact is the Chief Pilot, Director of Aviation has to have the Boss’s confidence and understanding that the Chief Pilot and his crews get the final decision making, not the owner. It’s a tough conversation and one many have trouble having, either out of lack of confidence or personal situation. I fortunately worked at several places and was never questioned on a “no” call. Been pushed, but the ultimate decision maker backed us up.

Loads of GA airports, KTEB, KSEE, KASE, KPWK, KDPA are seriously compromised by their locations, terrain, ATC considerations. KTEB and Chicago airports primarily due to ATC; as is KSEE where the more logical approach (LOC-D) is perfectly aligned with the longest runway but Cat A&B only due to terrain and rarely used due to conflicting with MCAS Miramar. The visual into KTEB is a mess and has been, again due to airspace, forever. It bite an unfamiliar Lear 35 crew who also weren’t the best in the business. KASE is hobbled by the absurdly difficult RNP AR process. When an operator has to do sim training and fly their BBJ there for training and approval, it’s hard to justify getting the approval. Even if the FAA imposed weather restrictions on operators with RNP AR approvals not meeting today’s standards. KASE is hard enough, but, if we could gain a restricted RNP AR, flying an AR approach with verticaL guidance in VMC would be safety improvement.

We were qualified at a number of Swiss and French mountain airports, we did an online course plus sim profiles during recurrent, restricted the weather, both NAA and our self-imposed limits. Worked good, no problems. All new or questionable airports are reviewed prior to ops even if it causes a delay or cancellation. I’ve had to say “no, take the car” when the boss wanted use a marginal field similar to KSEE, never questioned.

Take access to these airports destroys the utility inherent in a private plane, but proper risk management with management backing goes a long way to reduces accidents. This was preventable by simply saying, no, we’re going to Lindbergh and driving home.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14726
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:14 pm

wjcandee wrote:
To me -- and admittedly this is waaay premature -- it seems like, as he comes into the frame on the second Nest video, he is still flying, and he is in the left turn the we know he was making. Some think he seems low, but he was intentionally flying, it appears, at about 350 feet AGL if I'm doing the math right (800 feet MSL) while making the turn, so that looks about right. Neighbors must love it when small jets do that over their houses. Then, within a matter of moments, he does seem to depart from the vertical path while still in the turn and there's an explosion just a second or so thereafter. The actual period between loss of control and impact seems to be just a couple of seconds. I can see why FlyingElvii postulates what he does in his thread-starting post.

I think there's a tendency of the human psyche to want there to be something consequential as the cause of a dramatic accident that takes several lives. From the Kennedy assassination to the car wreck that took the life of a pal back home when I was like 15, or when another childhood pal died in her Citabria while practicing stunts when I was like 21, one somehow wants a highly-consequential result to have an equivalently-consequential cause.

This accident is in some way the aviation equivalent of a car entering a curve that's covered in black ice, and going straight into trees at 50 mph. Happened fast. Happened for reasons, but not good or big ones. Could have been prevented by more-cautious conduct, but nothing one can do take the conduct back.

Hard to wrap one's mind around.


I sure would love to hear the CVR because so far on the audio there is no alarms to pull up or stall or anything which would almost suggest he didn't know where he was until he was about to hit the ground.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11194
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:58 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I sure would love to hear the CVR because so far on the audio there is no alarms to pull up or stall or anything which would almost suggest he didn't know where he was until he was about to hit the ground.


I have enough trouble reading the official, edited, written CVR transcripts when they involve fatal accidents. I think I would find it very-difficult to listen to the actual CVR. But I know what you're saying: the assigned investigators will absolutely need to listen to the whole CVR, if there is one, to understand the cues the aircraft was giving, as well as the pilots' apparent decision-making.

A Lear driver would know a lot more about what kind of warnings the aircraft would give you in a situation like this. My impression is "not a lot", and even if it did, when you're talking about being in controlled flight one moment and hitting the ground 3 seconds later, not much utility if they did. I also don't know what a Lear stick shaker sounds like, don't know if that background sound is that. Have to say that vectoring around and waaaay up over the mountains to the LOC-D arrival was much-more-involved (and tricky given the steep glideslope due to terrain), so I understand the disinclination to use it, but the chosen approach, in these kind of marginal conditions, at night, in a Lear...well...fate is the hunter. They had probably done something similar many times in the past with no consequence.
 
User avatar
JannEejit
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audio/video

Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:28 pm

That final few seconds of CVR linked to above was truly horrendous. May this poor fellow's family never hear that.
 
MO11
Posts: 1971
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audio/video

Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:22 am

JannEejit wrote:
That final few seconds of CVR linked to above was truly horrendous. May this poor fellow's family never hear that.


That isn't CVR....
 
KAUSavgeek
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:55 am

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audio/video

Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:39 am

Listened to the last part of that audio, cried a little. This one really got to me, so sad to even think about the last moments of terror, especially when the accident itself seems rather avoidable.
 
Pkoschy
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:17 am

Re: Learjet Crash Tonight in San Diego/ Gillespie - audo/video

Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:27 am

pugman211 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Very sad. Sounds like a young-ish guy, too.

Also, I don't know what that metallic noise is in the background while the pilot is crying out. There may be more involved (as there often is) than what it appears at first blush. I also don't have a clear first impression from the Nest camera that documents the crash. Just horrible all around.


Is that metallic noise possibly a vibration? Like stall buffet (if that's the correct terminology)


I think that sound is that the Learjet hit something and cart wheeled to the ground.
 
TokyoImperialPa
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 1:50 pm

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audio/video

Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:37 am

It appears that the aircraft was flying too low (especially for instrument) and the cancellation to VFR might have something to do with this height. But there appears to be no reason to circle when there were no problems doing a direct approach from his original heading.

A comment posted on a website somewhere from a homeowner near the airport stated that they heard the aircraft flying so low that they literally went outside and saw the crash from start to end.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8931
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Learjet Crash December 27 2021 in San Diego/ Gillespie - audio/video

Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:21 am

The 17 runway is too short for a Lear 35 to land when wet, that’s the reason for the visual pattern to the landing runway.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos