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Expressjet87145
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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:28 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:58 pm

Yes you did the correct thing by speaking out. I remember hearing that a passenger onboard Aloha flight 243 saw something that didn’t look right during boarding and didn’t report what she saw.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:15 am

This thread is hilarious. I imagine that some observations from knowledgeable observers, like one or two above, merited attention. But the chances of an average passenger correctly identifying a maintenance issue that isn't completely-obvious, or, worse yet, a misconfiguration (OMG, No Flaps!!! Oh, there they are.), seems pretty-unlikely.
 
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Aresxerexade
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Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:20 am

wjcandee wrote:
This thread is hilarious. I imagine that some observations from knowledgeable observers, like one or two above, merited attention. But the chances of an average passenger correctly identifying a maintenance issue that isn't completely-obvious, or, worse yet, a misconfiguration (OMG, No Flaps!!! Oh, there they are.), seems pretty-unlikely.


True but one should never trivialize the notion of being safety aware and to report. Passengers ought to be encouraged and feel welcome in reporting any observations . You just never truly know what can spiral out of control and become an even bigger problem.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:33 am

Gillbilly wrote:
One time I was nervous that the slats and flaps weren't out until immediately before we lined up on the runway. I thought about saying something but I'm no pilot. Is it normal to put them out right before the roll?


I wonder if they got the configuration warning as they pushed the throttles ? Or alternatively, did a quick checklist and saw their mistake ?
 
SteelChair
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Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:57 am

I've seen many cases where passengers reported something that was a non event. But then there are cases like the infamous Concorde fuel leak that the FA's kept poo pooing until the passenger was insistent. So it all depends.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:00 am

I would hope a passenger that reports any issue that was missed by an airline would be compensated for doing the airline’s job. I hope he was given a free ticket.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:18 am

Aesma wrote:
Gillbilly wrote:
One time I was nervous that the slats and flaps weren't out until immediately before we lined up on the runway. I thought about saying something but I'm no pilot. Is it normal to put them out right before the roll?

I wonder if they got the configuration warning as they pushed the throttles ? Or alternatively, did a quick checklist and saw their mistake ?

If there was snow and ice, it might be procedure to delay flap extension to avoid the risk of slush and ice building up in the flap mechanism, which could prevent them from retracting after departure.
 
rexchase12
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:38 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:21 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
Can someone explain what is a speed tape and it's primary function?



I seem to remember reading a story a while back about a Concorde that took off and something punched a hole in the wing, and one passenger adamantly called for flight attendants to come over and see. They called the flight crew, and the flight returned to its departure airport. I can't find references to it (only 4590 comes up), but if it hadn't been for that passenger's insistence, the plane might have been lost.

Can anyone help out on that?


Probably this, as seen on Smithsonian Channel’s “Concorde: Flying Supersonic”
Passenger saw a part fly by his window after takeoff and then noticed a hole in wing with fluids leaking out. Passenger told FA about a hole in wing and she told him they were flaps and began serving champagne. Passenger insisted a flight crew member to come back and FA compiled and brought back a crew member, who turned pale upon seeing the hole, and ran back to the cockpit.

From http://www.concordesst.com/accident/past.html
14 JUN 1979
Concorde 101 Air France, F-BVFC
While taking off from Washington two tyres on the left hand maingear blew. The gear could not be retracted, so the crew elected to return to Washington. Some circuitry was damaged after having been hit by debris from the tires. Debris also caused a fuel and hydraulic leak.
 
beechnut
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Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:45 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
Can someone explain what is a speed tape and it's primary function?


Hi there! Speed tape is exactly what it sounds like - tape that is used for airplanes used to make temporary repairs so that the plane can fly at...well, "speed". It's not a permanent fix; however, it can be used for temporary fixes until the plane can get back to a place where a more permanent fix can be made. Someone else will have to explain where it can and cannot be used, but it is frequently.

I seem to remember reading a story a while back about a Concorde that took off and something punched a hole in the wing, and one passenger adamantly called for flight attendants to come over and see. They called the flight crew, and the flight returned to its departure airport. I can't find references to it (only 4590 comes up), but if it hadn't been for that passenger's insistence, the plane might have been lost.

Can anyone help out on that?


I remember that Concorde incident and if memory serves, the passenger (can't remember if he was a pilot or not) called the FA, who poo-poohed it as "normal". Well a hole in a wing with fuel pissing out is by no means normal and the passenger insisted that the flight crew look at it. The second officer came back, had a look, the colour drained from his face and he said "oh mon Dieu" and raced back to the cockpit whereupon the flight did a 180 and headed back to, I think, Dulles. It was in fact a prelude to 4590 crash. I did find this, probably the same incident, minus the details about the pax reporting it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 2789c43c5/

Beech
 
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AirKevin
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:38 am

flyinggoat wrote:
Several years ago, I had just boarded a DL 738 that was missing the trailing edge of a canoe fairing. I figure the crew already knew about it and that it wasn’t a big deal, but I did mention it to the flight attendant. The flight attendant asked if the wing looked different than the other side of the aircraft, and I obliged real quick with a quick look out the opposite side before saying yes. She asked if I was an aircraft mechanic, and I said no, and she then passed my message up to the pilot. She came back and thanked me for letting them know, and we proceeded with the flight.

First, good job for catching it. Just wanted to let you know that the flap fairing is there for aerodynamic purposes and to protect the flap track, so having one go missing wouldn't stop the flight from going. It will, however, result in additional drag because of the exposed flap track, so the flight crew would refer to the configuration deviation list to find out what the drag penalty is since they would then need to take on additional fuel for the flight. That one isn't really one you need to worry too much about unless you happened to watch it fall off, in which case you should tell them.
 
Theseus
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:40 am

My guess if this was not reported before takeoff:
In the best case the part would not have detached from the wing but would have started moving due to the airspeed. Someone would have noticed after takeoff and warned the crew and the flight would have diverted, possibly going back to the starting point, and after burning fuel in altitude for a while. The flight would have been done again on the next day, thus with a 24 hour delay.
 
yabeweb
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:41 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:18 am

wjcandee wrote:
This thread is hilarious. I imagine that some observations from knowledgeable observers, like one or two above, merited attention. But the chances of an average passenger correctly identifying a maintenance issue that isn't completely-obvious, or, worse yet, a misconfiguration (OMG, No Flaps!!! Oh, there they are.), seems pretty-unlikely.


You only need 1 case to make it worth....

Unlikely is not impossible.

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2 ... light-243/ Think if Aloha Flight 243 could have been prevented... I mean "After the accident, a passenger said she noticed a crack in the aircraft’s fuselage as she was boarding but decided not to say anything to ground personnel or the flight crew."

Now If a passenger was able to see a crack, one would think it would have been pretty obvious to the maintenance people, but hey they are human too and it happens, so why take chances?

If something "that big" escaped, think of other not-so-obvious things that could be escaping checks.

Not so hilarious now is it?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11466
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:43 am

yabeweb wrote:
Not so hilarious now is it?


Yeah. Still hilarious. Because "after the accident", all sorts of people think they saw all sorts of things. Not that they're making it up, but rather that the mind does funny things.

In virtually any plane crash, there will be people on the ground who will swear that the plane was on fire as it was going in (when it wasn't), and there are people who will swear that they could see the faces of some of the passengers through the windows (when they objectively could not).

We're all human. It's just the way we are.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3513
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:21 am

Absolutely share it with the crew, but if you poke your head in my flight deck and say "hey skipper, I have my PPL. If you all need any help feel free to come get me" then I am throwing you off. ;-)
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2213
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: Did this person do the right thing?

Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:22 am

During Flight Attendant training, we were told to always take pax complaints seriously. In this case your friend did the right thing. It’s always better to be safe than sorry.


BoeingG wrote:
Surprised this wasn't caught on the walkaround. Shameful. Pilots should be reported.


Pretty sure you’re going to need some speed tape after reading some of these replies.. That’s if the moderators haven’t cleared the MELs yet :duck:
 
hitower3
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:55 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:12 am

Dear all,

I would also agree with the consensus that as a PAX we should report any relevant observations to the FA as appropriate.
Once on a flight with Austrian on a F100, I looked out of the window during a night time approach to VIE and observed an object - likely a bird - hitting or almost hitting the wing around the area of the landing light. I reported the observation to the FO who greeted us when leaving the airplane and he was very thankful for my report.
I don't know if there was damage caused on the wing, but I think a precautionary approach to any safety relevant items will have a positive impact on flight safety.

Kind regards,
Hendric
 
Gillbilly
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:46 pm

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:26 am

AirKevin wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Gillbilly wrote:
One time I was nervous that the slats and flaps weren't out until immediately before we lined up on the runway. I thought about saying something but I'm no pilot. Is it normal to put them out right before the roll?

I wonder if they got the configuration warning as they pushed the throttles ? Or alternatively, did a quick checklist and saw their mistake ?

If there was snow and ice, it might be procedure to delay flap extension to avoid the risk of slush and ice building up in the flap mechanism, which could prevent them from retracting after departure.


Ah, very interesting. Yes, this was Wisconsin in November. It had been snowing earlier in the day. Thank you for the suggestion.
 
yabeweb
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:41 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:59 am

wjcandee wrote:
yabeweb wrote:
Not so hilarious now is it?


Yeah. Still hilarious. Because "after the accident", all sorts of people think they saw all sorts of things. Not that they're making it up, but rather that the mind does funny things.

In virtually any plane crash, there will be people on the ground who will swear that the plane was on fire as it was going in (when it wasn't), and there are people who will swear that they could see the faces of some of the passengers through the windows (when they objectively could not).

We're all human. It's just the way we are.

I would not take chances when it comes to safety, I see something I report it, useful or not, it's free and might save lives / time / money.
 
ScottishDavie
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:15 pm

About 30 years ago I was on a British Airways BAC 1-11-500 landing at Munich Riem which usually required a steep turn on finals. As we levelled after the turn I looked out of the window and noticed a small hatch on the wing had opened and a brownish fluid was running out. I wondered if it was hydraulic fluid and whether the flaps were going to deploy but they did and the landing was uneventful. As we were getting off I told an FA what I had seen. She asked me to wait while she got the First Officer. He came back and asked me to show him exactly what I had noticed which I duly did. He was sufficiently concerned to call maintenance to check things out. In the meantime the bus carrying all the other passengers to the terminal had departed leaving me stranded on board! Attempts to contact the driver by radio were unsuccessful so BA dispatch had to send a car to retrieve me. The BA cabin crew were really nice and I even got a cup of tea and a biscuit while we were waiting for the car. A slightly odd incident but I would certainly do the same again.
 
tonystan
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:34 pm

As crew with 22 years experience behind me including a period as a CRM trainer (if you dont know what CRM in aviation is you probably shouldn’t be commenting on this thread lol) all I can say is, don’t assume the professionals always know!!!!!!!!

There are no stupid questions, only stupid responses! If something seems a tad unusual or you’re not comfortable about something dont be afraid to discretely contact the crew, they will venture to find out for you or at least put your mind at ease.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1455
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:11 pm

rexchase12 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
Can someone explain what is a speed tape and it's primary function?


I seem to remember reading a story a while back about a Concorde that took off and something punched a hole in the wing, and one passenger adamantly called for flight attendants to come over and see. They called the flight crew, and the flight returned to its departure airport. I can't find references to it (only 4590 comes up), but if it hadn't been for that passenger's insistence, the plane might have been lost.

Can anyone help out on that?


Probably this, as seen on Smithsonian Channel’s “Concorde: Flying Supersonic”
Passenger saw a part fly by his window after takeoff and then noticed a hole in wing with fluids leaking out. Passenger told FA about a hole in wing and she told him they were flaps and began serving champagne. Passenger insisted a flight crew member to come back and FA compiled and brought back a crew member, who turned pale upon seeing the hole, and ran back to the cockpit.

From http://www.concordesst.com/accident/past.html
14 JUN 1979
Concorde 101 Air France, F-BVFC
While taking off from Washington two tyres on the left hand maingear blew. The gear could not be retracted, so the crew elected to return to Washington. Some circuitry was damaged after having been hit by debris from the tires. Debris also caused a fuel and hydraulic leak.


beechnut wrote:
I remember that Concorde incident and if memory serves, the passenger (can't remember if he was a pilot or not) called the FA, who poo-poohed it as "normal". Well a hole in a wing with fuel pissing out is by no means normal and the passenger insisted that the flight crew look at it. The second officer came back, had a look, the colour drained from his face and he said "oh mon Dieu" and raced back to the cockpit whereupon the flight did a 180 and headed back to, I think, Dulles. It was in fact a prelude to 4590 crash. I did find this, probably the same incident, minus the details about the pax reporting it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 2789c43c5/

Beech


Thanks for the responses - that's the incident! My researching skills didn't pan out yesterday, but I knew someone would get it. Y'all are awesome!
 
ThunderDome
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Should passengers report possible maintenance issues to crew

Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:23 pm

Yes, please if you see something that just looks off, mention it to either the Flight Crew or the Cabin Crew. That goes for most anything on the plane. Is there an issue with the IFE? Tell the F/A, is there a lack of air coming from the Gasper vent? Tell the F/A. Carpet is pulling up? Tell some one. Alot of times these items are not looked at everyday by the airline, so if Maintenance doesn't know it's broke, they can't fix it. I have brought issues up to crews before when I have flown. At that point, its up to them it they want to do anything about it.

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