From the Global Times:

"I want to add that zero-COVID policy won't stay in China forever, but policy adjustments require support of more breakthroughs in medical science, and such conditions are obviously not yet mature."

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202111/1237787.shtml

There you have it. Their end game is medical breathroughs.

An editorial in how crew are bearing the brunt of restrictions, and in return are treated like lepers by the community.

“ Airline crew are isolated when they are overseas in hotel rooms, often facing food delivery problems. On return to Hong Kong, they are subjected to weeks of tests and isolation from the community. Every crew member spends three to four hours of their own time (sometimes more) completing airport PCR tests before returning home or to a quarantine hotel.
And every crew member and their family members face the possibility of quarantine in Penny’s Bay whenever they work. None of these are recent revelations; this has been the norm for over a year.”

From

https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/ar ... -isolation

hongkongflyer wrote:

It turn out discovering that CX intentionally scheduling crews operating outbound passenger flights to travelling back to HK by cargo flights just to utilize the loophole for the exemption granted to cargo flight crews, plus some of the crews not following the stay home restrictions, which lead to the current spread of COVID in the society.

It wasn’t a loophole, they were the published rules airlines from all over the world were operating cargo only in and pax out.

You are distorting the facts to bring Cx crew in bad light.

Fact is passengers from Hkg tested positive to the new strain when they arrived in mainland China mid December.

Fact is the first omicron people detected in hkg were passengers from Africa.

Fact is the first community transmission of omicron from an airport worker to the community was an cleaner working in the temporary specimen collection centre. This is not the first community transmission from airports workers to the community, last year port health staff were infected by passengers and entered the community with earlier variants. Only after this did they mandate airport workers other than crew to get vaccinated.

Fact is the government locks crew up with infected passengers in the temporary specimen collection centre. Many requests have been to keep crew isolated were rejected by port health.

These facts don’t make it to the papers because it exposes poor policy.

hongkongflyer wrote:

I am amazing that many of you, especially those living outside HK, whose home town have record breaking cases everyday can make such criticizes on HK's policies to prevent the spread.

Hkg’s stance of burying its head in the sand thinking it will be immune from infractions if boarders are closed are insane. And I use the term insane in the sense Einstein used it.

The number of cases per day is a useless metric, you are trying to compare countries with high vaccination rates with the low vaccination rate in hkg. The number of people being admitted to hospital and deaths are low with omicron in countries with high vaccination rates.

Locking up an entire high rise like they did in Tung Chung is poor policy. People should have just isolated at home.

Hkg is full of poor policy, and an attitude of blame others for their mistakes. But poor policy is all over the world, it is ironic you can recognise that elsewhere but not in hkg.

Cerecl wrote:

AA100 wrote:

Do you really want to spend 10-15 years closed off? You are mad.

I think you should refrain from personal attacks just because others have a different perspective.
I get that this is an aviation forum and many members are aviation crews/workers, but people need to understand that out in the wider community, many would happily forego chance to travel in exchange for (relative) safety from COVID-19. I just returned from a country with better control to a country with exploding number of cases. I can tell you it has been weighing on my mind since my arrival, and I am triple vaccinated. My parents, who are not that elderly, would probably love to live in HK at the moment compared to where we are.
Yes Omicron is relatively mild, but people need to come off work, they need to stay away from their loved ones, some of us have some kids who are vulnerable, and there is no guarantee that you won't be sick enough to need hospitalisation. I have seen CTs of patient's lungs months after they recovered from acute COVID-19. You DO NOT want a pair of lungs like that, and it is well worth you giving up 10-15 years of travel if that is your trade-off (unless your livelihood depend on travelling).

If I lived in a country as large as Australia, USA, or Mainland China - I'd happily cut off from the world and achieve zero covid. HK is a tiny city who's economy is dependent on international movement of goods and people and is a world financial center. The benefits of zero covid do not really outweigh the benefits of maintaining the economy. We are sort of walking around in a "fake" or "zombie" economy and society. When you look closer at the tourist spots, the airport, or ask a hotel what it's average rate / occupancy is versus pre-pandemic, or ask restaurants if their business is as good as pre-pandemic, or ask any of the shops if their business is as good as before the pandemic... none will say so.

if HK could be included in the Mainland China bubble it might be different, but at the moment its on its own and its unsustainable. Even if I disagreed personally for a covid free strategy, I would accept and understand the rationale if HK could at least have free movement of people to and from China. So far the border opening has been delayed and delayed...

Back to CX and HKIA, although a partition was made at the airport, quarantine free travel is still not granted to and from China. We still don't even know what CX's post Cathay Dragon network will look like in China.

AA100 wrote:

If I lived in a country as large as Australia, USA, or Mainland China - I'd happily cut off from the world and achieve zero covid. HK is a tiny city who's economy is dependent on international movement of goods and people and is a world financial center. The benefits of zero covid do not really outweigh the benefits of maintaining the economy. We are sort of walking around in a "fake" or "zombie" economy and society. When you look closer at the tourist spots, the airport, or ask a hotel what it's average rate / occupancy is versus pre-pandemic, or ask restaurants if their business is as good as pre-pandemic, or ask any of the shops if their business is as good as before the pandemic... none will say so.

if HK could be included in the Mainland China bubble it might be different, but at the moment its on its own and its unsustainable. Even if I disagreed personally for a covid free strategy, I would accept and understand the rationale if HK could at least have free movement of people to and from China. So far the border opening has been delayed and delayed...

Pretty much this. For me, living in China for two years without international travel has been tough but doable given that it's a big country with a diverse economy. I don't know if I could manage it in Hong Kong, assuming I could even stay employed.

AA100 wrote:

Cerecl wrote:

AA100 wrote:

Do you really want to spend 10-15 years closed off? You are mad.

I think you should refrain from personal attacks just because others have a different perspective.
I get that this is an aviation forum and many members are aviation crews/workers, but people need to understand that out in the wider community, many would happily forego chance to travel in exchange for (relative) safety from COVID-19. I just returned from a country with better control to a country with exploding number of cases. I can tell you it has been weighing on my mind since my arrival, and I am triple vaccinated. My parents, who are not that elderly, would probably love to live in HK at the moment compared to where we are.
Yes Omicron is relatively mild, but people need to come off work, they need to stay away from their loved ones, some of us have some kids who are vulnerable, and there is no guarantee that you won't be sick enough to need hospitalisation. I have seen CTs of patient's lungs months after they recovered from acute COVID-19. You DO NOT want a pair of lungs like that, and it is well worth you giving up 10-15 years of travel if that is your trade-off (unless your livelihood depend on travelling).

If I lived in a country as large as Australia, USA, or Mainland China - I'd happily cut off from the world and achieve zero covid. HK is a tiny city who's economy is dependent on international movement of goods and people and is a world financial center. The benefits of zero covid do not really outweigh the benefits of maintaining the economy. We are sort of walking around in a "fake" or "zombie" economy and society. When you look closer at the tourist spots, the airport, or ask a hotel what it's average rate / occupancy is versus pre-pandemic, or ask restaurants if their business is as good as pre-pandemic, or ask any of the shops if their business is as good as before the pandemic... none will say so.

if HK could be included in the Mainland China bubble it might be different, but at the moment its on its own and its unsustainable. Even if I disagreed personally for a covid free strategy, I would accept and understand the rationale if HK could at least have free movement of people to and from China. So far the border opening has been delayed and delayed...

Back to CX and HKIA, although a partition was made at the airport, quarantine free travel is still not granted to and from China. We still don't even know what CX's post Cathay Dragon network will look like in China.

Actually we were very close to reopening of border (target was late Dec). It delayed again because of the recent outbreak, which is clearly caused by CX crews not following the rules.

hongkongflyer wrote:

Actually we were very close to reopening of border (target was late Dec). It delayed again because of the recent outbreak, which is clearly caused by CX crews not following the rules.

That is false propaganda, the person you are blaming was the 14th person to be tested positive for omicron.

They tested negative on arrival in HKG.

The only reason you know he was positive is he did follow the rules and got tested days later after arrival.

It is totally plausible he going infected at the temporary specimen collection centre at the airport, the same place airport cleaners have been infected and entered the community.

“ Hong Kong Finds Suspected Local Omicron Case in Airport Cleaner
He’s set to be city’s first omicron case in a non-traveler”


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rt-cleaner

The airport cleaner had the same mutation at the passenger arrived early December from Africa, a week before the CX crew member. The CX crew member was the 14th omicron detection in hkg.

Many people have tested negative at the airport then test positive days later.

A number of cities in China are completely locked down due to omicron like Xian. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... down-xian/

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

Actually we were very close to reopening of border (target was late Dec). It delayed again because of the recent outbreak, which is clearly caused by CX crews not following the rules.

That is false propaganda, the person you are blaming was the 14th person to be tested positive for omicron.

They tested negative on arrival in HKG.

The only reason you know he was positive is he did follow the rules and got tested days later after arrival.

It is totally plausible he going infected at the temporary specimen collection centre at the airport, the same place airport cleaners have been infected and entered the community.

“ Hong Kong Finds Suspected Local Omicron Case in Airport Cleaner
He’s set to be city’s first omicron case in a non-traveler”


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rt-cleaner

The airport cleaner had the same mutation at the passenger arrived early December from Africa, a week before the CX crew member. The CX crew member was the 14th omicron detection in hkg.

Many people have tested negative at the airport then test positive days later.

A number of cities in China are completely locked down due to omicron like Xian. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... down-xian/

If he did follow the rules and not going outside for personal reasons, other customers in the shopping mall won’t got infected, which lead to further spread all over Hong Kong. A FA even go to another FA’s home for gathering during the stay home period. Because of their selfish, many facilities in Hong Kong are now closed.

hongkongflyer wrote:

If he did follow the rules and not going outside for personal reasons, other customers in the shopping mall won’t got infected, which lead to further spread all over Hong Kong. A FA even go to another FA’s home for gathering during the stay home period. Because of their selfish, many facilities in Hong Kong are now closed.

“ misdirection is a form of deception in which the performer draws audience attention to one thing to distract it from another.”

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misdirection_(magic)

Mainland China is seeing hundreds of cases a day. Passengers from mainland China enter hong kong without testing or quarantine.

Yet you blame people who could not have left the airport unless they tested negative. They are more likely to have caught it in HKG just like the airport cleaners.

Hong Kong is banning flights for 2 weeks from the US, Australia, Pakistan, India, Canada, France, and the UK starting January 8th and further tightening curbs within the city.

zeke wrote:

An editorial in how crew are bearing the brunt of restrictions, and in return are treated like lepers by the community.

“ Airline crew are isolated when they are overseas in hotel rooms, often facing food delivery problems. On return to Hong Kong, they are subjected to weeks of tests and isolation from the community. Every crew member spends three to four hours of their own time (sometimes more) completing airport PCR tests before returning home or to a quarantine hotel.
And every crew member and their family members face the possibility of quarantine in Penny’s Bay whenever they work. None of these are recent revelations; this has been the norm for over a year.”

From

https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/ar ... -isolation

hongkongflyer wrote:

It turn out discovering that CX intentionally scheduling crews operating outbound passenger flights to travelling back to HK by cargo flights just to utilize the loophole for the exemption granted to cargo flight crews, plus some of the crews not following the stay home restrictions, which lead to the current spread of COVID in the society.

It wasn’t a loophole, they were the published rules airlines from all over the world were operating cargo only in and pax out.

You are distorting the facts to bring Cx crew in bad light.

Fact is passengers from Hkg tested positive to the new strain when they arrived in mainland China mid December.

Fact is the first omicron people detected in hkg were passengers from Africa.

Fact is the first community transmission of omicron from an airport worker to the community was an cleaner working in the temporary specimen collection centre. This is not the first community transmission from airports workers to the community, last year port health staff were infected by passengers and entered the community with earlier variants. Only after this did they mandate airport workers other than crew to get vaccinated.

Fact is the government locks crew up with infected passengers in the temporary specimen collection centre. Many requests have been to keep crew isolated were rejected by port health.

These facts don’t make it to the papers because it exposes poor policy.

hongkongflyer wrote:

I am amazing that many of you, especially those living outside HK, whose home town have record breaking cases everyday can make such criticizes on HK's policies to prevent the spread.

Hkg’s stance of burying its head in the sand thinking it will be immune from infractions if boarders are closed are insane. And I use the term insane in the sense Einstein used it.

The number of cases per day is a useless metric, you are trying to compare countries with high vaccination rates with the low vaccination rate in hkg. The number of people being admitted to hospital and deaths are low with omicron in countries with high vaccination rates.

Locking up an entire high rise like they did in Tung Chung is poor policy. People should have just isolated at home.

Hkg is full of poor policy, and an attitude of blame others for their mistakes. But poor policy is all over the world, it is ironic you can recognise that elsewhere but not in hkg.

Have to quote you just bc how much I agree with your post.

As I call HK policy nowaday - it is total paranoia. One positive test? Lock down a whole building! (When was the last time they find any other positive test that way? A year ago?). One supposed "community spread" case? Let's go back to closing down restaurants early again! (But you still have to go onto those crowded MTR/bus on commutes). Oh...and let's keep trying to open the border to mainland even though the number of cases there had been much higher than HK for months.

As far as "blaming others for their mistake", well, it starts at the top with that CE who basically point fingers at everyone else (usually everything is the fault of "the west").

Either way, I love your perspective as a CX insider...dark and messy time indeed.

zakuivcustom wrote:

One supposed "community spread" case? Let's go back to closing down restaurants early again! (But you still have to go onto those crowded MTR/bus on commutes).

Yes curtail dinner arrangements because of lunch, C19 doesn’t spread before 6pm.

AA100 wrote:

If I lived in a country as large as Australia, USA, or Mainland China - I'd happily cut off from the world and achieve zero covid. HK is a tiny city who's economy is dependent on international movement of goods and people and is a world financial center. The benefits of zero covid do not really outweigh the benefits of maintaining the economy. We are sort of walking around in a "fake" or "zombie" economy and society. When you look closer at the tourist spots, the airport, or ask a hotel what it's average rate / occupancy is versus pre-pandemic, or ask restaurants if their business is as good as pre-pandemic, or ask any of the shops if their business is as good as before the pandemic... none will say so.

if HK could be included in the Mainland China bubble it might be different, but at the moment its on its own and its unsustainable. Even if I disagreed personally for a covid free strategy, I would accept and understand the rationale if HK could at least have free movement of people to and from China. So far the border opening has been delayed and delayed...

Back to CX and HKIA, although a partition was made at the airport, quarantine free travel is still not granted to and from China. We still don't even know what CX's post Cathay Dragon network will look like in China.

What you described applies to any country/region. Mainland China's economy, for example, is also heavily dependent on import/export.
With this kind of lockdown, obviously the government takes a gamble between limiting cases vs economic hit. If you are a tour operator you end up on on the wrong side of the gamble, if you are a kidney transplant recipient on three different immunosuppressants, you are a winner. The government of my country is deservedly copping a lot of anger at the moment as it decided to weaken COVID-19 related restrictions just as Omicron started to hit. Now we have tens of thousands of cases per day and the average Joe Bloke can't even get a PCR test. In contrast, Japan has closed the border to all foreign tourists-apparently this policy is extremely popular amongst the Japanese people.
My contacts in HK, who are not directly linked to airline/logistics, report almost free lifestyle without restrictions, and no major acute issues relating to the lockdown. I think HK will survive.

Cerecl wrote:

My contacts in HK, who are not directly linked to airline/logistics, report almost free lifestyle without restrictions, and no major acute issues relating to the lockdown. I think HK will survive.

My regional colleagues and clients in HK express to me everyday the frustrations they have - their careers and businesses are based around regional/global businesses, and they talk about the commercial/personal stranglation of HK...and most believe that they will need to move in order to continue their business/role in the future (ie, HK is no longer the place to reside for them or their business HQ/operations). The inability to travel, and the repressive quarantine requirements (including fear of being locked up for being a contact) just makes this worse.

I fear for CX and HK, and both their relevance into the future.

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

AA100 wrote:

If I lived in a country as large as Australia, USA, or Mainland China - I'd happily cut off from the world and achieve zero covid. HK is a tiny city who's economy is dependent on international movement of goods and people and is a world financial center. The benefits of zero covid do not really outweigh the benefits of maintaining the economy. We are sort of walking around in a "fake" or "zombie" economy and society. When you look closer at the tourist spots, the airport, or ask a hotel what it's average rate / occupancy is versus pre-pandemic, or ask restaurants if their business is as good as pre-pandemic, or ask any of the shops if their business is as good as before the pandemic... none will say so.

if HK could be included in the Mainland China bubble it might be different, but at the moment its on its own and its unsustainable. Even if I disagreed personally for a covid free strategy, I would accept and understand the rationale if HK could at least have free movement of people to and from China. So far the border opening has been delayed and delayed...

Pretty much this. For me, living in China for two years without international travel has been tough but doable given that it's a big country with a diverse economy. I don't know if I could manage it in Hong Kong, assuming I could even stay employed.

Unemployment rate is not especially high except tourism industry

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

If he did follow the rules and not going outside for personal reasons, other customers in the shopping mall won’t got infected, which lead to further spread all over Hong Kong. A FA even go to another FA’s home for gathering during the stay home period. Because of their selfish, many facilities in Hong Kong are now closed.

“ misdirection is a form of deception in which the performer draws audience attention to one thing to distract it from another.”

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misdirection_(magic)

Mainland China is seeing hundreds of cases a day. Passengers from mainland China enter hong kong without testing or quarantine.

Yet you blame people who could not have left the airport unless they tested negative. They are more likely to have caught it in HKG just like the airport cleaners.

Are you sure people coming bak from mainland China do not need a test before returning to Hong Kong?
My fd just come back from mainland yesterday after handling the family emergency in China.
He basically did test every two days before allowed to come back to Hong Kong (for 14 days after finishing quarantine in China.

Cerecl wrote:

AA100 wrote:

If I lived in a country as large as Australia, USA, or Mainland China - I'd happily cut off from the world and achieve zero covid. HK is a tiny city who's economy is dependent on international movement of goods and people and is a world financial center. The benefits of zero covid do not really outweigh the benefits of maintaining the economy. We are sort of walking around in a "fake" or "zombie" economy and society. When you look closer at the tourist spots, the airport, or ask a hotel what it's average rate / occupancy is versus pre-pandemic, or ask restaurants if their business is as good as pre-pandemic, or ask any of the shops if their business is as good as before the pandemic... none will say so.

if HK could be included in the Mainland China bubble it might be different, but at the moment its on its own and its unsustainable. Even if I disagreed personally for a covid free strategy, I would accept and understand the rationale if HK could at least have free movement of people to and from China. So far the border opening has been delayed and delayed...

Back to CX and HKIA, although a partition was made at the airport, quarantine free travel is still not granted to and from China. We still don't even know what CX's post Cathay Dragon network will look like in China.

What you described applies to any country/region. Mainland China's economy, for example, is also heavily dependent on import/export.
With this kind of lockdown, obviously the government takes a gamble between limiting cases vs economic hit. If you are a tour operator you end up on on the wrong side of the gamble, if you are a kidney transplant recipient on three different immunosuppressants, you are a winner. The government of my country is deservedly copping a lot of anger at the moment as it decided to weaken COVID-19 related restrictions just as Omicron started to hit. Now we have tens of thousands of cases per day and the average Joe Bloke can't even get a PCR test. In contrast, Japan has closed the border to all foreign tourists-apparently this policy is extremely popular amongst the Japanese people.
My contacts in HK, who are not directly linked to airline/logistics, report almost free lifestyle without restrictions, and no major acute issues relating to the lockdown. I think HK will survive.

In HK, lockdown means isolate a building for a night in order to facility the community testing, basically you are free to go next morning.
In overseas, lockdown means basically not allowed to go outside except for work/buying essential items.
Many A.net members have a misunderstanding about HK's policy and thinking that HKers daily life are seriously affected.

hongkongflyer wrote:

Are you sure people coming bak from mainland China do not need a test before returning to Hong Kong?
My fd just come back from mainland yesterday after handling the family emergency in China.
He basically did test every two days before allowed to come back to Hong Kong (for 14 days after finishing quarantine in China.

I don’t know what they do prior to landing, all I know is upon landing they enter Hong Kong without testing. Passengers from China enter the community without testing in Hong Kong.

While crew from the same flight are kept with passengers from all over the world in the temporary specimen collection centre and not allowed to leave until they receive a negative test result.

There is no logic to this.

ArtV wrote:

My regional colleagues and clients in HK express to me everyday the frustrations they have - their careers and businesses are based around regional/global businesses, and they talk about the commercial/personal stranglation of HK...and most believe that they will need to move in order to continue their business/role in the future (ie, HK is no longer the place to reside for them or their business HQ/operations). The inability to travel, and the repressive quarantine requirements (including fear of being locked up for being a contact) just makes this worse.
I fear for CX and HK, and both their relevance into the future.

I am sure your colleagues and clients have valid concerns. I am also sure there are tens of thousands of Japanese tour operators who feel the same about their country's policies. The fact is, this forum is inherently a biased sample of the whole community. As I look out of my window, I can see many who would love to take a couple of 0s out of today's case count, and I don't think the survival of airline industry is part of the consideration in their mind.
The fate of HK (and CX) ultimately rests in its role in the interaction of Mainland China with the rest of the world. When we look back in a few decades, COVID-19 is a mere bump in a long road into the future. I would worry more about how HK sees itself in this geopolitical tussle, and whether it has the wisdom to actively shape this tussle.

hongkongflyer wrote:

Cerecl wrote:

AA100 wrote:

If I lived in a country as large as Australia, USA, or Mainland China - I'd happily cut off from the world and achieve zero covid. HK is a tiny city who's economy is dependent on international movement of goods and people and is a world financial center. The benefits of zero covid do not really outweigh the benefits of maintaining the economy. We are sort of walking around in a "fake" or "zombie" economy and society. When you look closer at the tourist spots, the airport, or ask a hotel what it's average rate / occupancy is versus pre-pandemic, or ask restaurants if their business is as good as pre-pandemic, or ask any of the shops if their business is as good as before the pandemic... none will say so.

if HK could be included in the Mainland China bubble it might be different, but at the moment its on its own and its unsustainable. Even if I disagreed personally for a covid free strategy, I would accept and understand the rationale if HK could at least have free movement of people to and from China. So far the border opening has been delayed and delayed...

Back to CX and HKIA, although a partition was made at the airport, quarantine free travel is still not granted to and from China. We still don't even know what CX's post Cathay Dragon network will look like in China.

What you described applies to any country/region. Mainland China's economy, for example, is also heavily dependent on import/export.
With this kind of lockdown, obviously the government takes a gamble between limiting cases vs economic hit. If you are a tour operator you end up on on the wrong side of the gamble, if you are a kidney transplant recipient on three different immunosuppressants, you are a winner. The government of my country is deservedly copping a lot of anger at the moment as it decided to weaken COVID-19 related restrictions just as Omicron started to hit. Now we have tens of thousands of cases per day and the average Joe Bloke can't even get a PCR test. In contrast, Japan has closed the border to all foreign tourists-apparently this policy is extremely popular amongst the Japanese people.
My contacts in HK, who are not directly linked to airline/logistics, report almost free lifestyle without restrictions, and no major acute issues relating to the lockdown. I think HK will survive.

In HK, lockdown means isolate a building for a night in order to facility the community testing, basically you are free to go next morning.
In overseas, lockdown means basically not allowed to go outside except for work/buying essential items.
Many A.net members have a misunderstanding about HK's policy and thinking that HKers daily life are seriously affected.

I think some people here are misunderstanding the level of “lockdown” most people in other countries have been under (how wise that’s been is another discussion).

Air passengers arriving from the mainland to HKG will be tested in a separate testing facility at the airport located in the North Satellite Concourse. Other passengers are tested in the Midfield Satellite Concourse.

https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202 ... 600500.htm

Those who arrive via the land borders are not tested on arrival. Air and land passengers coming to Hong Kong under quarantine free Come2HK and Return2HK schemes will need to be tested at an approved lab in the Mainland and submit their results prior to departure to get a green code. If not using these schemes the travelers will be subject to 7 day home quarantine. Both groups will need to report for several tests (at differing intervals) after their entry into the community.

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

From the Global Times:

"I want to add that zero-COVID policy won't stay in China forever, but policy adjustments require support of more breakthroughs in medical science, and such conditions are obviously not yet mature."

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202111/1237787.shtml

There you have it. Their end game is medical breathroughs.

So that essentially means that China will be closed off for the foreseeable future (until at least 2025). I don't see any medical breakthroughs that make C19 non dangerous in the near future. Vaccines and treatment pills with about 90% efficiency don't seem to do it for China. And I also don't see C19 to stop mutating and not becoming endemic in the rest of the world.

It will be interesting to see how successful such an approach will be and especially what the effects on the aviation industry will be. At some points economies that have opened up need to reinforce slot usage rules at their airports and it then I am unsure how carriers of closed economies will react. Fly empty and use it, or rather lose the slots. I take it that Covid Zero is not unpopular in Asia, just as living with Corona is not unpopular in the West. Therefore, we could see a decoupling that lasts for some years, or for a decade.

Capricorn wrote:

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

From the Global Times:

"I want to add that zero-COVID policy won't stay in China forever, but policy adjustments require support of more breakthroughs in medical science, and such conditions are obviously not yet mature."

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202111/1237787.shtml

There you have it. Their end game is medical breathroughs.

So that essentially means that China will be closed off for the foreseeable future (until at least 2025). I don't see any medical breakthroughs that make C19 non dangerous in the near future. Vaccines and treatment pills with about 90% efficiency don't seem to do it for China. And I also don't see C19 to stop mutating and not becoming endemic in the rest of the world.

It will be interesting to see how successful such an approach will be and especially what the effects on the aviation industry will be. At some points economies that have opened up need to reinforce slot usage rules at their airports and it then I am unsure how carriers of closed economies will react. Fly empty and use it, or rather lose the slots. I take it that Covid Zero is not unpopular in Asia, just as living with Corona is not unpopular in the West. Therefore, we could see a decoupling that lasts for some years, or for a decade.

The only way out I can see would be better testing that doesn't require 2-3 weeks of quarantine to diagnose if someone has covid.

This video from the Taiwanese Pilot Union illustrates pretty well what HK based crewmembers are currently experiencing. Taiwan has been rougher, to be sure, but not by much at this point.

Kids kicked out of school because a parent is crew. Crew and family not getting necessary medical care. The list is long.

https://youtu.be/F8ZdZHQHFCY

Capricorn wrote:

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

From the Global Times:

"I want to add that zero-COVID policy won't stay in China forever, but policy adjustments require support of more breakthroughs in medical science, and such conditions are obviously not yet mature."

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202111/1237787.shtml

There you have it. Their end game is medical breathroughs.

So that essentially means that China will be closed off for the foreseeable future (until at least 2025). I don't see any medical breakthroughs that make C19 non dangerous in the near future. Vaccines and treatment pills with about 90% efficiency don't seem to do it for China. And I also don't see C19 to stop mutating and not becoming endemic in the rest of the world.

It will be interesting to see how successful such an approach will be and especially what the effects on the aviation industry will be. At some points economies that have opened up need to reinforce slot usage rules at their airports and it then I am unsure how carriers of closed economies will react. Fly empty and use it, or rather lose the slots. I take it that Covid Zero is not unpopular in Asia, just as living with Corona is not unpopular in the West. Therefore, we could see a decoupling that lasts for some years, or for a decade.

Agreed with your point. East and West take different approaches toward the COVID19 (similar to how people react to the requirements of wearing mask). We have not criticize the policies implemented by Western countries (and ironically many countries reimplement the lockdown policies again), but on the other hand, we got criticize by them on how countries in Eastern World deal with COVID19 by relatively strict rules. CX is a company based in HK, it and its staffs must follow the rules implemented by the local government. People who ignore these rules should not have any excuses.

hongkongflyer wrote:

We have not criticize the policies implemented by Western countries (and ironically many countries reimplement the lockdown policies again), but on the other hand, we got criticize by them on how countries in Eastern World deal with COVID19 by relatively strict rules. CX is a company based in HK, it and its staffs must follow the rules implemented by the local government. People who ignore these rules should not have any excuses.

There has been plenty of criticism from China about the West's handling of Covid-19, just as there there has been plenty of criticism from the West on the West's handling of Covid-19. Nobody is saying zero-covid doesn't work. It works, but it has a very high economic and social cost for a lot of people. Not everyone has the luxury of a functioning immune system, just as not everyone has the luxury of being able to stay in business if international travel and commerce shuts down.

zeke wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

One supposed "community spread" case? Let's go back to closing down restaurants early again! (But you still have to go onto those crowded MTR/bus on commutes).

Yes curtail dinner arrangements because of lunch, C19 doesn’t spread before 6pm.

yes covid only comes out after dark.... or maybe Plexiglas is less effective after dark, who knows.....

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

Pretty much this. For me, living in China for two years without international travel has been tough but doable given that it's a big country with a diverse economy. I don't know if I could manage it in Hong Kong, assuming I could even stay employed.

well after more than 2 years, HK indeed starts to get small....

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

There has been plenty of criticism from China about the West's handling of Covid-19, just as there there has been plenty of criticism from the West on the West's handling of Covid-19.

but not too much critism (except Trump) from the West on China's original handling of Covid...

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

The only way out I can see would be better testing that doesn't require 2-3 weeks of quarantine to diagnose if someone has covid.

Saw a device at CES 22 called freedom results in results in 10 seconds

hongkongflyer wrote:

CX is a company based in HK, it and its staffs must follow the rules implemented by the local government. People who ignore these rules should not have any excuses.

The problem with your statement is you are asking a very small number of people to make much larger sacrifices than anyone else in the community. All the quarantine, travelling to testing, waiting for results etc is all unpaid or at the crew members expense.

Crew have been very compliant, there is just no end in sight. The whole community should have been vaccinated by now, there is no excuse.

As for community compliance, I see you don’t mention the thousands of people a day who don’t use the leavehomesafe app. Far more people have been convicted for that than the very small number of crew.

If the whole community had the same restrictions as crew you would have everyone vaccinated. They are only just bringing in at least one vaccination to eat in a restaurant.

hongkongflyer wrote:

CX is a company based in HK, it and its staffs must follow the rules implemented by the local government. People who ignore these rules should not have any excuses.

Rules that neither you nor most of the population in HK would ever be able or willing to subject themselves to... All for a zero-covid strategy that is illusory and doomed to fail.
Funny how people often defend harsh constraints as long as they don't affect them.

blandy62 wrote:

zeke wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

One supposed "community spread" case? Let's go back to closing down restaurants early again! (But you still have to go onto those crowded MTR/bus on commutes).

Yes curtail dinner arrangements because of lunch, C19 doesn’t spread before 6pm.

yes covid only comes out after dark.... or maybe Plexiglas is less effective after dark, who knows.....

At the very begin, it was a 24 hours ban for dinning, however people (mainly who need to work outside) complained about it and later the government compromised. Same for many countries who allow people to go out for exercises for a few hours during the lockdown. COVID won’t spread in the park?

zeke wrote:

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

The only way out I can see would be better testing that doesn't require 2-3 weeks of quarantine to diagnose if someone has covid.

Saw a device at CES 22 called freedom results in results in 10 seconds

hongkongflyer wrote:

CX is a company based in HK, it and its staffs must follow the rules implemented by the local government. People who ignore these rules should not have any excuses.

The problem with your statement is you are asking a very small number of people to make much larger sacrifices than anyone else in the community. All the quarantine, travelling to testing, waiting for results etc is all unpaid or at the crew members expense.

Crew have been very compliant, there is just no end in sight. The whole community should have been vaccinated by now, there is no excuse.

As for community compliance, I see you don’t mention the thousands of people a day who don’t use the leavehomesafe app. Far more people have been convicted for that than the very small number of crew.

If the whole community had the same restrictions as crew you would have everyone vaccinated. They are only just bringing in at least one vaccination to eat in a restaurant.

Using leave home safe apps is not a legal requirement until recently.

Cathay commences interesting routings from HKG to Europe in order to meet latest COVID crew rest requirements:

- 07-Jan-2022 CX255 HKG-LHR-AMS A351
- 08-Jan-2022 CX270 AMS-MXP-HKG A351

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/cx255

factsonly wrote:

Cathay commences interesting routings from HKG to Europe in order to meet latest COVID crew rest requirements:

- 07-Jan-2022 CX255 HKG-LHR-AMS A351
- 08-Jan-2022 CX270 AMS-MXP-HKG A351

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/cx255

Those interesting routings have been going on for months.

Revelation wrote:

Capricorn wrote:

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

From the Global Times:

"I want to add that zero-COVID policy won't stay in China forever, but policy adjustments require support of more breakthroughs in medical science, and such conditions are obviously not yet mature."

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202111/1237787.shtml

There you have it. Their end game is medical breathroughs.

So that essentially means that China will be closed off for the foreseeable future (until at least 2025). I don't see any medical breakthroughs that make C19 non dangerous in the near future. Vaccines and treatment pills with about 90% efficiency don't seem to do it for China. And I also don't see C19 to stop mutating and not becoming endemic in the rest of the world.

It will be interesting to see how successful such an approach will be and especially what the effects on the aviation industry will be. At some points economies that have opened up need to reinforce slot usage rules at their airports and it then I am unsure how carriers of closed economies will react. Fly empty and use it, or rather lose the slots. I take it that Covid Zero is not unpopular in Asia, just as living with Corona is not unpopular in the West. Therefore, we could see a decoupling that lasts for some years, or for a decade.

That end game seems unworkable to me. The virus mutates faster than new anti-viruses can be created. Hoping for a breakthrough is not a plan. The best approach IMO is to live with Corona. At some point that is what will happen anyway, it's inevitable.

I guess the breakthrough they need is large scale mRNA vaccine production facilities. As their current vaccine offers aren't anywhere enough to deal with new variants even after boosted, and they have more than a billion people to be boosted which is obviously beyond the world's current mRNA vaccine manufacturing capacity

Starlionblue wrote:

This video from the Taiwanese Pilot Union illustrates pretty well what HK based crewmembers are currently experiencing. Taiwan has been rougher, to be sure, but not by much at this point.

Kids kicked out of school because a parent is crew. Crew and family not getting necessary medical care. The list is long.

https://youtu.be/F8ZdZHQHFCY

The way some Asian societies are treating their pilots and cabin crews is unsustainable.
This is taking a toll on crew members mental health, I hope is not too late before the govt change their stance on 0 covid. My best vibes goes to CX and EVA crews

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... eak-leader
Hong Kong government vows to sue Cathay for violating pandemic rules.

On TV news, it's said that the government think Cathay have broke the law by allowing outbound passenger flight crew to return by deadheading on cargo flights, allowing those crew to "evade" quarantine

c933103 wrote:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220111-cathay-pacific-faces-legal-action-over-hong-kong-virus-outbreak-leader
Hong Kong government vows to sue Cathay for violating pandemic rules.

On TV news, it's said that the government think Cathay have broke the law by allowing outbound passenger flight crew to return by deadheading on cargo flights, allowing those crew to "evade" quarantine

could be worse for CX, if they offered their pilots meals in some spanish restaurants....

c933103 wrote:

On TV news, it's said that the government think Cathay have broke the law by allowing outbound passenger flight crew to return by deadheading on cargo flights, allowing those crew to "evade" quarantine

Not sure if I understand that, many airlines have operated passenger flights out and cargo in. The passengers are from HKG.

zeke wrote:

c933103 wrote:

On TV news, it's said that the government think Cathay have broke the law by allowing outbound passenger flight crew to return by deadheading on cargo flights, allowing those crew to "evade" quarantine

Not sure if I understand that, many airlines have operated passenger flights out and cargo in. The passengers are from HKG.

I guess there are also transfer passengers among outbound flights, and Cathay crew are based in Hong Kong unlike foreign airlines, which make them stay in Hong Kong after flights, which cause the government to be concern about it? They didn't elaborate on it in the TV news.

c933103 wrote:

I guess there are also transfer passengers among outbound flights, and Cathay crew are based in Hong Kong unlike foreign airlines, which make them stay in Hong Kong after flights, which cause the government to be concern about it? They didn't elaborate on it in the TV news.

Not sure if that is true either, we have passenger crew which are in quarantine on arrival in HKG, the so called “closed loop”

All the procedures are being done with port health approval.

c933103 wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Capricorn wrote:

So that essentially means that China will be closed off for the foreseeable future (until at least 2025). I don't see any medical breakthroughs that make C19 non dangerous in the near future. Vaccines and treatment pills with about 90% efficiency don't seem to do it for China. And I also don't see C19 to stop mutating and not becoming endemic in the rest of the world.

It will be interesting to see how successful such an approach will be and especially what the effects on the aviation industry will be. At some points economies that have opened up need to reinforce slot usage rules at their airports and it then I am unsure how carriers of closed economies will react. Fly empty and use it, or rather lose the slots. I take it that Covid Zero is not unpopular in Asia, just as living with Corona is not unpopular in the West. Therefore, we could see a decoupling that lasts for some years, or for a decade.

That end game seems unworkable to me. The virus mutates faster than new anti-viruses can be created. Hoping for a breakthrough is not a plan. The best approach IMO is to live with Corona. At some point that is what will happen anyway, it's inevitable.

I guess the breakthrough they need is large scale mRNA vaccine production facilities. As their current vaccine offers aren't anywhere enough to deal with new variants even after boosted, and they have more than a billion people to be boosted which is obviously beyond the world's current mRNA vaccine manufacturing capacity

Fosun Pharma in Shanghai already makes mRNA vaccines using Pfizer/BioNTech's recipe but it hasn't been approved for use in Mainland China yet, so they're shipping it to Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. Honestly, the only way out I can see would be greatly improved testing that wouldn't require quarantine.

zeke wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I guess there are also transfer passengers among outbound flights, and Cathay crew are based in Hong Kong unlike foreign airlines, which make them stay in Hong Kong after flights, which cause the government to be concern about it? They didn't elaborate on it in the TV news.

Not sure if that is true either, we have passenger crew which are in quarantine on arrival in HKG, the so called “closed loop”

All the procedures are being done with port health approval.

It is a loophole. Originally exemptions are given to cargo flight crews because of its necessary to keep HK running.
Then CX creatively find that they could schedule it as outbound passenger flight then back as a cargo flight so that more crews will not be subject to quarantine,
so that more crews are available for future flights & reduce the numbers of crew needed for closed loop operation, which could save CX's costs.
CX's intention to utilize the loophole + few irresponsible crews who break the rules make CX and HK society as a whole to pay for it.

Shame on CX and those irresponsible crews!!!

hongkongflyer wrote:

zeke wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I guess there are also transfer passengers among outbound flights, and Cathay crew are based in Hong Kong unlike foreign airlines, which make them stay in Hong Kong after flights, which cause the government to be concern about it? They didn't elaborate on it in the TV news.

Not sure if that is true either, we have passenger crew which are in quarantine on arrival in HKG, the so called “closed loop”

All the procedures are being done with port health approval.

It is a loophole. Originally exemptions are given to cargo flight crews because of its necessary to keep HK running.
Then CX creatively find that they could schedule it as outbound passenger flight then back as a cargo flight so that more crews will not be subject to quarantine,
so that more crews are available for future flights & reduce the numbers of crew needed for closed loop operation, which could save CX's costs.
CX's intention to utilize the loophole + few irresponsible crews who break the rules make CX and HK society as a whole to pay for it.

Shame on CX and those irresponsible crews!!!

"CX creatively find..."

As zeke says, all operations have been carried out with local authority approval, and the rules are extremely stringent. There has been no subterfuge or sneakiness involved. The "loophole", as you call it, was a mechanism known to the authority, which allowed operations to carry on slightly more normally.

I have no idea of the actual costs involved in these cases, but I wager that your cost discussion does not hold water.

How is the company supposed to monitor people on their free time, in their homes? Besides, and to paraphrase a comment upthread: If one person violating the rules one time can nullify the entire defence policy, maybe said policy was not very robust.

It bears mention that the "accused person" in this case might not even have broken the rules. It might have been transmission through a family member. In other words, this latest "entry of Covid" into HK could well have happened without any rules even being broken.


Cathay crew have been bearing the brunt of these policies for months. Mistakes have been made by a very small number, and it seems to me that vilifying all crew for doing their jobs under extreme circumstances is both unethical and ungrateful.

c933103 wrote:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220111-cathay-pacific-faces-legal-action-over-hong-kong-virus-outbreak-leader
Hong Kong government vows to sue Cathay for violating pandemic rules.

On TV news, it's said that the government think Cathay have broke the law by allowing outbound passenger flight crew to return by deadheading on cargo flights, allowing those crew to "evade" quarantine

No operations rules were broken and nothing was evaded. Operations were carried out within the rules laid out by the authority.

hongkongflyer wrote:

zeke wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I guess there are also transfer passengers among outbound flights, and Cathay crew are based in Hong Kong unlike foreign airlines, which make them stay in Hong Kong after flights, which cause the government to be concern about it? They didn't elaborate on it in the TV news.

Not sure if that is true either, we have passenger crew which are in quarantine on arrival in HKG, the so called “closed loop”

All the procedures are being done with port health approval.

It is a loophole. Originally exemptions are given to cargo flight crews because of its necessary to keep HK running.
Then CX creatively find that they could schedule it as outbound passenger flight then back as a cargo flight so that more crews will not be subject to quarantine,
so that more crews are available for future flights & reduce the numbers of crew needed for closed loop operation, which could save CX's costs.
CX's intention to utilize the loophole + few irresponsible crews who break the rules make CX and HK society as a whole to pay for it.

Shame on CX and those irresponsible crews!!!

I'm not sure whether you're an antagonist or simply unable to comprehend what has previously been written, but these were not loopholes that CX "creatively" circumvented, these were government issued directives that CX followed. Your inability/unwillingness to acknowledge basic facts is staggering, but mostly inline with the misinformed general public who are intent on throwing CX under the bus for everything. I sure am glad I resigned from CX and I'm no longer surrounded by a society with the likes of you - who haven't a clue what its been like for crew and their families over the past 2 years.

Starlionblue wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

zeke wrote:

Not sure if that is true either, we have passenger crew which are in quarantine on arrival in HKG, the so called “closed loop”

All the procedures are being done with port health approval.

It is a loophole. Originally exemptions are given to cargo flight crews because of its necessary to keep HK running.
Then CX creatively find that they could schedule it as outbound passenger flight then back as a cargo flight so that more crews will not be subject to quarantine,
so that more crews are available for future flights & reduce the numbers of crew needed for closed loop operation, which could save CX's costs.
CX's intention to utilize the loophole + few irresponsible crews who break the rules make CX and HK society as a whole to pay for it.

Shame on CX and those irresponsible crews!!!

"CX creatively find..."

As zeke says, all operations have been carried out with local authority approval, and the rules are extremely stringent. There has been no subterfuge or sneakiness involved. The "loophole", as you call it, was a mechanism known to the authority, which allowed operations to carry on slightly more normally.

I have no idea of the actual costs involved in these cases, but I don't think your cost statements hold water.

Cathay crew have been bearing the brunt of these policies for months. Mistakes have been made by a very small number, but it seems to me that vilifying all crew for doing their jobs under extreme circumstances is both unethical and ungrateful.


How is the company supposed to monitor people on their free time, in their homes? Besides, and to paraphrase a comment upthread: If one person violating the rules one time can nullify the entire defence policy, maybe said policy was not very robust.


It bears mention that the "accused person" in this case might not even have broken the rules. It may have been transmission through a family member. In other words, this latest entry of Covid into HK could have happened without rules even being broken.

c933103 wrote:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220111-cathay-pacific-faces-legal-action-over-hong-kong-virus-outbreak-leader
Hong Kong government vows to sue Cathay for violating pandemic rules.

On TV news, it's said that the government think Cathay have broke the law by allowing outbound passenger flight crew to return by deadheading on cargo flights, allowing those crew to "evade" quarantine

No operations rules were broken and nothing was evaded. Operations were carried out within the rules laid out by the authority.

Please go search "望月樓群組" in Hong Kong news pages and you will find it is not a transmission through a family member, which lead to hundreds of people needed to be quarantine just because they were at the same place with those CX crews, who are supposed and required to stay at their home. The number of case directly related to CX crews going outside is around 10, sure not a big deal according to the standard in Europe/ USA/ Australia with record breaking cases every day.

Fortress11 wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

zeke wrote:

Not sure if that is true either, we have passenger crew which are in quarantine on arrival in HKG, the so called “closed loop”

All the procedures are being done with port health approval.

It is a loophole. Originally exemptions are given to cargo flight crews because of its necessary to keep HK running.
Then CX creatively find that they could schedule it as outbound passenger flight then back as a cargo flight so that more crews will not be subject to quarantine,
so that more crews are available for future flights & reduce the numbers of crew needed for closed loop operation, which could save CX's costs.
CX's intention to utilize the loophole + few irresponsible crews who break the rules make CX and HK society as a whole to pay for it.

Shame on CX and those irresponsible crews!!!

I'm not sure whether you're an antagonist or simply unable to comprehend what has previously been written, but these were not loopholes that CX "creatively" circumvented, these were government issued directives that CX followed. Your inability/unwillingness to acknowledge basic facts is staggering, but mostly inline with the misinformed general public who are intent on throwing CX under the bus for everything. I sure am glad I resigned from CX and I'm no longer surrounded by a society with the likes of you - who haven't a clue what its been like for crew and their families over the past 2 years.

For your information, I have plenty of friends working in CX as the FA and all of them are very upset about what their colleague have done.

hongkongflyer wrote:

Please go search "望月樓群組" in Hong Kong news pages and you will find it is not a transmission through a family member, which lead to hundreds of people needed to be quarantine just because they were at the same place with those CX crews, who are supposed and required to stay at their home.

There is no evidence to support this, there are literally thousands of airport workers walking around HkG that are not tested. All those police, customs, immigration, cleaners, MTR, port health, ground staff etc.

What we do know for fact is the crew tested negative on arrival, and tested negative the next to days. It was the mandatory day 3 test they tested positive. This indicates they could have been infected in the terminal as they put crew in with infected passengers.

The crew were not required to stay home all the time as you have stated incorrectly. They were getting government required PCR testing (as required under the government order) and food. These activities were explicitly permitted.

hongkongflyer wrote:

The number of case directly related to CX crews going outside is around 10, sure not a big deal according to the standard in Europe/ USA/ Australia with record breaking cases every day.

What about the other 12782 cases then ?

Have a good look at what is happening in Australia, and understand that covid in a vaccinated population is not the same as covid in an unvaccinated population.

The hospitalisation cases in Australia are mainly those with significant other illnesses or those who are unvaccinated.

Even children are being vaccinated in Australia.

Yet in Hong Kong only around 20% of the older population are vaccinated.