Australian Aviation Thread - January 2022

anstar · Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:22 am

Thatcher wrote:

TG are currently flying three weekly SYD-HKT-BKK as a step on their SYD resumption. JQ has presumably bled passengers to them and their quite nice 9AB 77W Y cabin.

I'd say its due to demand low. The barriers for travelling internationally are just too much for some with all the costs for tests etc. Plus with Thailand they still have the sandbox restrictions so won't appeal to most.

CostaDelSol90 · Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:29 pm

Looking likely that the Tonga ash cloud may significantly affect Australian traffic beggining in the next 24 hours. VAAC Wellington forecasts show it reaching QLD by tomorrow. Aircalin did a 90 turn and bailed to Brisbane en route from Tokyo to NOU. VA have CX their NAN ops today as did FJ.

Scanorama · Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:40 pm

HA452 SYD-HNL is taking a far more northerly route, it headed north and left the Australian coast just south of Townsville, probably trying to avoid the volcanic ash cloud too?

EK413 · Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:14 pm

CostaDelSol90 wrote:
Looking likely that the Tonga ash cloud may significantly affect Australian traffic beggining in the next 24 hours. VAAC Wellington forecasts show it reaching QLD by tomorrow. Aircalin did a 90 turn and bailed to Brisbane en route from Tokyo to NOU. VA have CX their NAN ops today as did FJ.

According to sources the ash cloud has reached the QLD coast with restrictions already in place.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dalavia · Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:30 pm

Fiji Airways has cancelled all their flights between Fiji and Australia today (Monday 17th January).

tullamarine · Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:34 pm

Flights from the US west coast have taken very indirect routes. Both UA 77Ws heading to SYD have headed further south just about crossing RAR whilst QF16 to BNE took a much more northerly route over Samoa and is now tracking down the Qld coast which has made it a very long flight for the A332.

a320fan · Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:58 pm

Thatcher wrote:
TG are currently flying three weekly SYD-HKT-BKK as a step on their SYD resumption. JQ has presumably bled passengers to them and their quite nice 9AB 77W Y cabin.

Not sure what state the JQ788s are in these days, but when I flew a TG 77W in 2019 it was in a very tired state, in inner pane of my window was loose so was rattling and vibrating away from the engine vibrations the whole flight. Could slightly minimise it by keeping the shade closed, but was still annoying, and then from the bumps during the takeoff roll part of the interior fittings above the L4 door fell down and was just left hanging there for the remainder of the flight.

Confortable enough though, a 9 ab 777 is always nice. Plus service and food was good.

CraigAnderson · Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:41 am

There's a rumour that Qantas is soon to announce PER-JNB flights, something it wanted to do several years ago but cancelled due to its dispute with Perth Airport, has anybody heard anything on this?

LoganTheBogan · Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:46 am

There are rumours going around that Rex has restarted discussions about ATR aircraft. Of course nothing can be confirmed at this stage as it is only a rumour, however given they signed an MOU with ATR in 2020 I wouldn't be surprised if this is the next step as they continue to refine their domestic services.

ArtV · Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:56 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:
There are rumours going around that Rex has restarted discussions about ATR aircraft. Of course nothing can be confirmed at this stage as it is only a rumour, however given they signed an MOU with ATR in 2020 I wouldn't be surprised if this is the next step as they continue to refine their domestic services.

What other options does Rex have at the moment to replace the aging SAABs - ATR42's are too big for some routes, but given the lack of options in the market for direct replacement of the current turboprop fleet, they may as well take some ATR42's, and try to stretch out the newer SAAB frames for the thinner routes.

LoganTheBogan · Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:00 am

ArtV wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
There are rumours going around that Rex has restarted discussions about ATR aircraft. Of course nothing can be confirmed at this stage as it is only a rumour, however given they signed an MOU with ATR in 2020 I wouldn't be surprised if this is the next step as they continue to refine their domestic services.

What other options does Rex have at the moment to replace the aging SAABs - ATR42's are too big for some routes, but given the lack of options in the market for direct replacement of the current turboprop fleet, they may as well take some ATR42's, and try to stretch out the newer SAAB frames for the thinner routes.

I'm wondering what their current spare parts inventory is like as they currently have multiple Saabs parked at the back of WGA without engines, props and other parts all taped up. Or perhaps overseas shipping is slow due to COVID.

But either way the Saabs are approaching the late 20s/early 30s now so they'll have to be replaced eventually. I doubt Embraer's new turboprop aircraft will be an affordable option if and when it comes to fruition.

jrfspa320 · Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:19 am

Can they afford replacements at the moment? Covid has certainly energized population growth in some of the regional towns / cities which may help. Particularly coastal communities along the NSW (and QLD) coast

zkncj · Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:05 pm

ArtV wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
There are rumours going around that Rex has restarted discussions about ATR aircraft. Of course nothing can be confirmed at this stage as it is only a rumour, however given they signed an MOU with ATR in 2020 I wouldn't be surprised if this is the next step as they continue to refine their domestic services.

What other options does Rex have at the moment to replace the aging SAABs - ATR42's are too big for some routes, but given the lack of options in the market for direct replacement of the current turboprop fleet, they may as well take some ATR42's, and try to stretch out the newer SAAB frames for the thinner routes.

Depends on the operating cost of the Saab vs the ATR 42-600. Even though the ATR has more seats, the more modern technology maybe have an lower per seat operating cost. Along with the ATR goes have the ability to carry more freight along side passenger bags which is additional revenue.

I know NZ has said there operating cost of there 50 seater Q300s, is around the same as there 68 seater 72-600s.

smi0006 · Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm

zkncj wrote:
ArtV wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
There are rumours going around that Rex has restarted discussions about ATR aircraft. Of course nothing can be confirmed at this stage as it is only a rumour, however given they signed an MOU with ATR in 2020 I wouldn't be surprised if this is the next step as they continue to refine their domestic services.

What other options does Rex have at the moment to replace the aging SAABs - ATR42's are too big for some routes, but given the lack of options in the market for direct replacement of the current turboprop fleet, they may as well take some ATR42's, and try to stretch out the newer SAAB frames for the thinner routes.

Depends on the operating cost of the Saab vs the ATR 42-600. Even though the ATR has more seats, the more modern technology maybe have an lower per seat operating cost. Along with the ATR goes have the ability to carry more freight along side passenger bags which is additional revenue.

I know NZ has said there operating cost of there 50 seater Q300s, is around the same as there 68 seater 72-600s.

I also note NZ have committed to move to a more sustainable fleet for regional (only space I can see it working tbh) - cant recall maybe electric, or hydrogen? I wonder if REX is now in an awkward position, where ATRs may not be ideal if the industry has a generational leap in technology in the coming decades and ZL has invested in a new ATR fleet - they hardly have the money to be shifting between fleets and technology. In saying this the SAABs surely won't last another decade before this technology arrives.

Maybe some second hand ATR, or Q300? Are there many on the market?

ZL sure have a lot on their plate in the coming 2yrs. Good luck to them!!

smi0006 · Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:45 pm

CraigAnderson wrote:
There's a rumour that Qantas is soon to announce PER-JNB flights, something it wanted to do several years ago but cancelled due to its dispute with Perth Airport, has anybody heard anything on this?

I think we are due for a route announcement soon - AJ mentioned they have a few more to announce, everyone is now back in the office, and they will want some good news to distract the market from their cancellation and reduced domestic demand due omicron. Whilst PER-JNB, or CPT would be nice I'm still hoping for PER-CDG!

CraigAnderson · Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:39 am

smi0006 wrote:
I also note NZ have committed to move to a more sustainable fleet for regional (only space I can see it working tbh) - cant recall maybe electric, or hydrogen?

If Rex can work out how to power its fleet using hot air, John Sharp will immediately become Australia's largest producer of sustainable energy

smi0006 · Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:43 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
I also note NZ have committed to move to a more sustainable fleet for regional (only space I can see it working tbh) - cant recall maybe electric, or hydrogen?

If Rex can work out how to power its fleet using hot air, John Sharp will immediately become Australia's largest producer of sustainable energy

Touche I was going to add something around having a lot on their plate - and if John Sharp could focus on what REX need to deliver, and less on what the competition is doing/not doing - they'd have a lot more time to focus on their business!

Sorry to say, but if REX is to succeed they desperately need new leadership - I can't imagine John's attitude are healthy for employee productivity and strategy.

smi0006 · Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:49 am

Interesting news also - Bendigo has secured funding for its airport and business park expansion.

https://www.bendigo.vic.gov.au/About/Me ... -expansion

City of Greater Bendigo Mayor Cr Andrea Metcalf and Chief Executive Officer Craig Niemann today welcomed $4.5M in funding from the Australian Government – the final amount needed to start construction.
The announcement matches a previous commitment of $4.5M from the Victorian Government, with the City also contributing $985,000.
The redevelopment will expand the building’s existing footprint and include a new departure lounge, provision for security screening area, waiting lounge, baggage claim, restroom facilities, new administration building and equipment shed.'

Not a huge amount of money really in comparison to many other questionable investments/subsidies by Gov. the article flags the QF service from SYD had been a success - if only we could lower the cost of security in Australia, given recent movement of away from cities, it does make you wonder the potential for greater air connectivity within regional Australia and what that could offer in regards to economic and social development.

OffTheRails · Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:03 am

QF7593 (Atlas Air) also doing a very interesting route. Staying off the coast of NSW and QLD before turning towards Hong Kong

zkncj · Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:57 am

smi0006 wrote:
ZL sure have a lot on their plate in the coming 2yrs. Good luck to them!!

NZ has 23x Q300s that likely to go up for sale in the next 5 years. NZ has the last built Q300s, although even then they are still getting old (are now the oldest aircraft in the fleet).

Thatcher · Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:44 am

anstar wrote:
Thatcher wrote:

TG are currently flying three weekly SYD-HKT-BKK as a step on their SYD resumption. JQ has presumably bled passengers to them and their quite nice 9AB 77W Y cabin.

I'd say its due to demand low. The barriers for travelling internationally are just too much for some with all the costs for tests etc. Plus with Thailand they still have the sandbox restrictions so won't appeal to most.

Demand is low for sure. I mentioned the TG flights though as a possible reason JQ reduced SYD-HKT from 3 to 1 weekly whilst leaving MEL-HKT unchanged at 2 weekly. You'd imagine demand has dropped equally in both states.

aerokiwi · Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:10 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:
ArtV wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
There are rumours going around that Rex has restarted discussions about ATR aircraft. Of course nothing can be confirmed at this stage as it is only a rumour, however given they signed an MOU with ATR in 2020 I wouldn't be surprised if this is the next step as they continue to refine their domestic services.

What other options does Rex have at the moment to replace the aging SAABs - ATR42's are too big for some routes, but given the lack of options in the market for direct replacement of the current turboprop fleet, they may as well take some ATR42's, and try to stretch out the newer SAAB frames for the thinner routes.

I'm wondering what their current spare parts inventory is like as they currently have multiple Saabs parked at the back of WGA without engines, props and other parts all taped up. Or perhaps overseas shipping is slow due to COVID.

But either way the Saabs are approaching the late 20s/early 30s now so they'll have to be replaced eventually. I doubt Embraer's new turboprop aircraft will be an affordable option if and when it comes to fruition.

I think it would be unlikely to see a one-for-one replacement of the Saabs. A lot of them seem to sit idle for much of the day, and that's without an outbreak.

I think they're at over 50 Saabs now but wouldn't be surprised if a future fleet is reduced to a 25-30 planes flying more efficiently, or even less. But yeah, capex and REX right now probably isn't a likely thing.

unityofsaints · Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:26 pm

smi0006 wrote:
BNE-DOH QR due to expanded bilateral

QR website already shows 3x weekly timetabled, do you reckon they'd expand to daily?

Kent350787 · Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:39 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
ArtV wrote:

What other options does Rex have at the moment to replace the aging SAABs - ATR42's are too big for some routes, but given the lack of options in the market for direct replacement of the current turboprop fleet, they may as well take some ATR42's, and try to stretch out the newer SAAB frames for the thinner routes.

I'm wondering what their current spare parts inventory is like as they currently have multiple Saabs parked at the back of WGA without engines, props and other parts all taped up. Or perhaps overseas shipping is slow due to COVID.

But either way the Saabs are approaching the late 20s/early 30s now so they'll have to be replaced eventually. I doubt Embraer's new turboprop aircraft will be an affordable option if and when it comes to fruition.

I think it would be unlikely to see a one-for-one replacement of the Saabs. A lot of them seem to sit idle for much of the day, and that's without an outbreak.

I think they're at over 50 Saabs now but wouldn't be surprised if a future fleet is reduced to a 25-30 planes flying more efficiently, or even less. But yeah, capex and REX right now probably isn't a likely thing.

The announcement of new ATR42 always sounded a little odd to me, given the history of leasing SF340 removed from service by other operators. ANd then Covid came.

Given ATRs that must now be off lease, I do wonder whether cheap ATR72s have become a realistic option, with low lease costs to offset empty seats.

a320fan · Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:48 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:

I'm wondering what their current spare parts inventory is like as they currently have multiple Saabs parked at the back of WGA without engines, props and other parts all taped up. Or perhaps overseas shipping is slow due to COVID.

But either way the Saabs are approaching the late 20s/early 30s now so they'll have to be replaced eventually. I doubt Embraer's new turboprop aircraft will be an affordable option if and when it comes to fruition.

I think it would be unlikely to see a one-for-one replacement of the Saabs. A lot of them seem to sit idle for much of the day, and that's without an outbreak.

I think they're at over 50 Saabs now but wouldn't be surprised if a future fleet is reduced to a 25-30 planes flying more efficiently, or even less. But yeah, capex and REX right now probably isn't a likely thing.

The announcement of new ATR42 always sounded a little odd to me, given the history of leasing SF340 removed from service by other operators. ANd then Covid came.

Given ATRs that must now be off lease, I do wonder whether cheap ATR72s have become a realistic option, with low lease costs to offset empty seats.

Where did the VA 72s end up? Maybe they could follow the trend set with their 737s. (There might also be some 330s and 777s available if they’re feeling really brave :duck:

)

tristans · Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:56 pm

a320fan wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:

I think it would be unlikely to see a one-for-one replacement of the Saabs. A lot of them seem to sit idle for much of the day, and that's without an outbreak.

I think they're at over 50 Saabs now but wouldn't be surprised if a future fleet is reduced to a 25-30 planes flying more efficiently, or even less. But yeah, capex and REX right now probably isn't a likely thing.

The announcement of new ATR42 always sounded a little odd to me, given the history of leasing SF340 removed from service by other operators. ANd then Covid came.

Given ATRs that must now be off lease, I do wonder whether cheap ATR72s have become a realistic option, with low lease costs to offset empty seats.

Where did the VA 72s end up? Maybe they could follow the trend set with their 737s. (There might also be some 330s and 777s available if they’re feeling really brave )

The VA ATRs ended up all over the place. HeviLift, North Star Air, FlyBig, Emerald Airlines/Aer Lingus Regional and Aegean Airlines. There are 3 remaining for sale, two -600s and a single -500.

tullamarine · Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:59 am

a320fan wrote:
Where did the VA 72s end up? Maybe they could follow the trend set with their 737s. (There might also be some 330s and 777s available if they’re feeling really brave )

VA's ATRs had 68 seats; REX's Saabs have 33 seats. There is no way ZL's Saab network could absorb the capacity of the former VA ATRs even if they were available.

A350OZ · Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:39 am

tullamarine wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Where did the VA 72s end up? Maybe they could follow the trend set with their 737s. (There might also be some 330s and 777s available if they’re feeling really brave )

VA's ATRs had 68 seats; REX's Saabs have 33 seats. There is no way ZL's Saab network could absorb the capacity of the former VA ATRs even if they were available.

Also my understanding is Rex really needs 50-seat (or less) sized aircraft as most of their ports don’t have security screening. For an AT72 or Q400 that would become a requirement which local councils who run those airports surely wouldn’t be keen/able to fund.

Qantas737 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:51 am

Thinking a little left field here and not knowing what actual pax loads on ZL flights to those small towns are like, could the upcoming Cessna SkyCourier with it's 19 pax configuration be a suitable aircraft for Rex? Perhaps even as a mixed fleet of SkyCouriers and ATR42s for the larger routes?

smi0006 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:04 am

A350OZ wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Where did the VA 72s end up? Maybe they could follow the trend set with their 737s. (There might also be some 330s and 777s available if they’re feeling really brave )

VA's ATRs had 68 seats; REX's Saabs have 33 seats. There is no way ZL's Saab network could absorb the capacity of the former VA ATRs even if they were available.

Also my understanding is Rex really needs 50-seat (or less) sized aircraft as most of their ports don’t have security screening. For an AT72 or Q400 that would become a requirement which local councils who run those airports surely wouldn’t be keen/able to fund.

That’s a good point - is there any figures to compare an older Q300 with a SAAB? How many of ZL routes are subsidised where the Gov cover operating costs I wonder?

Is there no other 50 seat or less on the second hand market?

jrfspa320 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:16 am

smi0006 wrote:
A350OZ wrote:
tullamarine wrote:

VA's ATRs had 68 seats; REX's Saabs have 33 seats. There is no way ZL's Saab network could absorb the capacity of the former VA ATRs even if they were available.

Also my understanding is Rex really needs 50-seat (or less) sized aircraft as most of their ports don’t have security screening. For an AT72 or Q400 that would become a requirement which local councils who run those airports surely wouldn’t be keen/able to fund.

That’s a good point - is there any figures to compare an older Q300 with a SAAB? How many of ZL routes are subsidised where the Gov cover operating costs I wonder?

Is there no other 50 seat or less on the second hand market?

I think only the QLD routes are 'subsidised'. In WA the routes are awarded under a contract, essentially providing sole award of routes but not a direct subsidy.

CraigAnderson · Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:14 am

I saw this 'flight review' published on the Sydney Morning Herald's Traveller website yesterday

"Airline review: Qatar Airways Airbus A380 first class, Melbourne to Doha"

https://www.traveller.com.au/flight-tes ... ass-h1kxpp

I was introduced as the QR A380 isn't flying to Australia, it's only going to London and Paris. But the article included some very up to date Covid references, eg "While cabin crew are required to wear protective clothing, passengers must also wear face masks throughout the flight, and hand sanitiser is available from the galley. With a rigorous cleaning process after each flight, re-useable items such as headsets are sanitised and refurbished, and bedding and linen cleaned."

It turns out this 'review' was actually published many years ago, before the pandemic, back when QR did fly MEL-DOH on the A380! The SMH just republished it and added the Covid content to make it sound like it was current. Very crooked and very misleading!

qf2220 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:23 am

Slightly morbid question (and one for in here as you know me), but have airlines started to route around the Western Ukraine yet? Given there is some heat building in this area id suspect airline risk assessments might be getting more red, which could lead to route changes if they believe there are risks of aircraft loss...

EK413 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:31 am

First E190 in Qantaslink livery to arrive into Australia seen here on finals for BNE

https://flic.kr/p/2mY1D2t

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AdvancedBikkie · Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:47 am

EK413 wrote:
First E190 in Qantaslink livery to arrive into Australia seen here on finals for BNE

https://flic.kr/p/2mY1D2t

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shame they didn't name them...

zkncj · Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:47 am

tullamarine wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Where did the VA 72s end up? Maybe they could follow the trend set with their 737s. (There might also be some 330s and 777s available if they’re feeling really brave )

VA's ATRs had 68 seats; REX's Saabs have 33 seats. There is no way ZL's Saab network could absorb the capacity of the former VA ATRs even if they were available.

What would be interesting is how many of ZL's routes have any room to grow? with an larger aircraft with an lower per seat cost = lower fare model.

Example, well while not 100% the same model.

NZ replaced its Saabs with 23x Q300s with 50 seats, then down the track ended up purchasing additional ATR at 68 seats to replace the 19 seat B1990D's.

It's not impossible to grow regional with an lower fare base model, it risky but can be done. There are routes that 10 years ago were an B1900Ds they are now seeing a couple of ATR's a day.

jrfspa320 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:59 am

zkncj wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Where did the VA 72s end up? Maybe they could follow the trend set with their 737s. (There might also be some 330s and 777s available if they’re feeling really brave )

VA's ATRs had 68 seats; REX's Saabs have 33 seats. There is no way ZL's Saab network could absorb the capacity of the former VA ATRs even if they were available.

What would be interesting is how many of ZL's routes have any room to grow? with an larger aircraft with an lower per seat cost = lower fare model.

Example, well while not 100% the same model.

NZ replaced its Saabs with 23x Q300s with 50 seats, then down the track ended up purchasing additional ATR at 68 seats to replace the 19 seat B1990D's.

It's not impossible to grow regional with an lower fare base model, it risky but can be done. There are routes that 10 years ago were an B1900Ds they are now seeing a couple of ATR's a day.

ZL tends to grow and generate additional demand by offering frequency allowing for day returns for example. The WA and recently won QLD routes are a good example. Previous to ZL, the ALH and EPR routes operated with a F50 at daily or less then. Now with a S340 its up to 3 daily returns.

smi0006 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:24 am

EK413 wrote:
First E190 in Qantaslink livery to arrive into Australia seen here on finals for BNE

https://flic.kr/p/2mY1D2t

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow looks great! Will they repaint the current alliance ones? Hopefully they fresh up the cabins a bit, even some new seat covers to align with the mainline cabins.

gpasternak · Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:51 am

Greatful for the opening of QLD for quarantine free travel. Surprised to see how many reward seats were left to fly to Canada. Does anyone know if QF is extending the increase in reward seat availability?

LoganTheBogan · Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:15 am

Qantas737 wrote:
Thinking a little left field here and not knowing what actual pax loads on ZL flights to those small towns are like, could the upcoming Cessna SkyCourier with it's 19 pax configuration be a suitable aircraft for Rex? Perhaps even as a mixed fleet of SkyCouriers and ATR42s for the larger routes?

I can't detail numbers as I would get into some hefty strife, however pax loads to small towns fluctuate quite a bit during the week. Some days you're looking at full flights and some are quite low. That is why they do little runs between small ports before commencing to the major city destination, such as SYD-GFF-NRA, MYA-MIM-SYD. But ultimately it is hard to tell what demand is like for now and the future because of COVID. Short term, January is typically a quiet month anyway.

melpax · Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:13 am

QF trying to terminate their Long-Haul Cabin Crew workplace agreement as the proposed agreement was not voted in by staff. QF wanting LH cabin crew to be rostered across all LH aircraft types (A330 & 380/B787)

https://www.theage.com.au/business/comp ... 59prv.html

anstar · Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:38 am

melpax wrote:
QF trying to terminate their Long-Haul Cabin Crew workplace agreement as the proposed agreement was not voted in by staff. QF wanting LH cabin crew to be rostered across all LH aircraft types (A330 & 380/B787)

https://www.theage.com.au/business/comp ... 59prv.html

I can't see it being unreasonable to want crew to be endorsed on 3 aircraft types.

jrfspa320 · Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:15 am

anstar wrote:
melpax wrote:
QF trying to terminate their Long-Haul Cabin Crew workplace agreement as the proposed agreement was not voted in by staff. QF wanting LH cabin crew to be rostered across all LH aircraft types (A330 & 380/B787)

https://www.theage.com.au/business/comp ... 59prv.html

I can't see it being unreasonable to want crew to be endorsed on 3 aircraft types.

And cut the pay award that was in their contract?

sierrakilo44 · Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:40 am

anstar wrote:
melpax wrote:
QF trying to terminate their Long-Haul Cabin Crew workplace agreement as the proposed agreement was not voted in by staff. QF wanting LH cabin crew to be rostered across all LH aircraft types (A330 & 380/B787)

https://www.theage.com.au/business/comp ... 59prv.html

I can't see it being unreasonable to want crew to be endorsed on 3 aircraft types.

The multi endorsement feature was probably the least objectionable part of the proposed agreement. Quite large pay cuts were proposed, plus reduced layover times increasing fatigue.

It's also quite concerning if companies can have courts tear up existing agreements rather than court ordered mediation and then if unsuccessful determination, it sets a bad precedent across all industries.

smi0006 · Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:56 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
anstar wrote:
melpax wrote:
QF trying to terminate their Long-Haul Cabin Crew workplace agreement as the proposed agreement was not voted in by staff. QF wanting LH cabin crew to be rostered across all LH aircraft types (A330 & 380/B787)

https://www.theage.com.au/business/comp ... 59prv.html

I can't see it being unreasonable to want crew to be endorsed on 3 aircraft types.

The multi endorsement feature was probably the least objectionable part of the proposed agreement. Quite large pay cuts were proposed, plus reduced layover times increasing fatigue.

It's also quite concerning if companies can have courts tear up existing agreements rather than court ordered mediation and then if unsuccessful determination, it sets a bad precedent across all industries.

It’s also removing and altering some elements that would have big impacts to crew - a month week of ‘standby/reserve’ would rewrite your roster, no ability to plan anything. Changes for 330 crew seem tough too. Frozen pay they does not increase with CPI? Pandemic has been tough, but QF have also used it as an opportunity to slash their costs. At
Some point they need to look at other ways to recover losses - we aren’t talking about legacy crew with outdated work practices anymore.

I’m also hearing for the first time ever all AU-airlines are struggling to recruit cabin crew, amongst ramp and groundstaff. At some point airlines need to pay market rates for labour if they want to attract talent.

A contract is a contract its a binding agreement that goes both ways - a company shouldn’t be able to simply alter it as it no longer suits them.

sierrakilo44 · Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:30 am

smi0006 wrote:
A contract is a contract its a binding agreement that goes both ways - a company shouldn’t be able to simply alter it as it no longer suits them.

Yes, but on the other hand cabin crew need to realise that the wages that they got away with in years past when the airline was a government run company that could be operated at a loss are no longer sustainable. Not degrading the work that cabin crew do, but when you see some international cabin crew getting paid a 6 figure salary for a job which training lasts 6-8 weeks, in which they are earning far more than some jobs which require a university degree, then you can see why airlines are taking this path.

The cabin crew body need to realise any proposed agreement should be looked at in comparison to what else is on offer to workers with their level of training, not what cabin crew got paid 30 years ago.

bjwonline · Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:51 am

anstar wrote:
melpax wrote:
QF trying to terminate their Long-Haul Cabin Crew workplace agreement as the proposed agreement was not voted in by staff. QF wanting LH cabin crew to be rostered across all LH aircraft types (A330 & 380/B787)

https://www.theage.com.au/business/comp ... 59prv.html

I can't see it being unreasonable to want crew to be endorsed on 3 aircraft types.

This spin from QF is outright untrue. Many crew are already trained on all 3 wide bodies and all those who are employed by QCCA can be trained on any AC the company wish, it's in their contract, they have no choice. Only the small minority of crew on QAL contracts get to chose if they want to accept training on new AC.

smi0006 · Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:07 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
A contract is a contract its a binding agreement that goes both ways - a company shouldn’t be able to simply alter it as it no longer suits them.

Yes, but on the other hand cabin crew need to realise that the wages that they got away with in years past when the airline was a government run company that could be operated at a loss are no longer sustainable. Not degrading the work that cabin crew do, but when you see some international cabin crew getting paid a 6 figure salary for a job which training lasts 6-8 weeks, in which they are earning far more than some jobs which require a university degree, then you can see why airlines are taking this path.

The cabin crew body need to realise any proposed agreement should be looked at in comparison to what else is on offer to workers with their level of training, not what cabin crew got paid 30 years ago.

Vast majority of those legacy crew are now gone, if not almost all - no way a QCCA or QCCD crew would come even close to six figures now, no one has been hired on the legacy conditions you mention for the past 15yrs.

I think you’d be surprised how little QCCA crew now earn for the amount of hours they put in - especially long haul flying, and fatigue wise with minimum rests and my understanding is QCCA get zero roster flexibility you fly what you are given. For the life of me in the current environment can I understand why anyone would choose it as a job.

eamondzhang · Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:58 am

smi0006 wrote:

I think you’d be surprised how little QCCA crew now earn for the amount of hours they put in - especially long haul flying, and fatigue wise with minimum rests and my understanding is QCCA get zero roster flexibility you fly what you are given. For the life of me in the current environment can I understand why anyone would choose it as a job.

Not me, I know the lot of Asian airlines (KE, CN4, NH, JL) have:
- Fixed schedule, you fly what you get and no ability to swap schedule and the only way to get out is to call sick/fatigue
- Minimum rest on long-haul (mostly 24hr turn, 48h turn is rare but possible)
- When you're on standby you really cannot plan anything as you may be called on short notice, even if you're on home standby
- Monthly hours pushed to legal limit

Michael

VHOGU · Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:55 pm

I hope the QF flight attendants fight hard. When the EBA at VA was renegotiated after administration most crew lost around $500 per pay and an insane number of conditions.

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