Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
wedgetail737 wrote:AC4500 wrote:Staffing issues continue to plague AS, reflected in this weekend's summer schedule update.
For example at PDX, PDX-ANC down to just 1x daily, PDX-ABQ/AUS reduced to 4x weekly. PDX-MSP reduced to 5x weekly. PDX-DAL/KOA/LIH/PSP all gone. All PDX-Montana routes (BIL/BZN/FCA/MSO) are now only operating on Saturdays. Long list of other cuts as well. I'll be here all day if I list them all out.
I suppose they're ALL out of PDX, as you suggested in your post. Whoa is PDX.
SANFan wrote:Please, what dates are these changes concentrated on this week? Is it more of the June 16 peak summer sked, or May, or the Fall? (I haven't gotten to it yet.)
It is very hard to watch this keep happening at Alaska -- and other cx as well of course. Especially with AS receiving new a/c; I wonder if we may see the 'Buses go even earlier than expected.
bb
CMHtraveler wrote:wedgetail737 wrote:AC4500 wrote:Staffing issues continue to plague AS, reflected in this weekend's summer schedule update.
For example at PDX, PDX-ANC down to just 1x daily, PDX-ABQ/AUS reduced to 4x weekly. PDX-MSP reduced to 5x weekly. PDX-DAL/KOA/LIH/PSP all gone. All PDX-Montana routes (BIL/BZN/FCA/MSO) are now only operating on Saturdays. Long list of other cuts as well. I'll be here all day if I list them all out.
I suppose they're ALL out of PDX, as you suggested in your post. Whoa is PDX.
Nope, not all. The planned second daily summer frequency on CMH-SEA is gone after May, back to 1x daily.
Midwestindy wrote:CMHtraveler wrote:wedgetail737 wrote:
I suppose they're ALL out of PDX, as you suggested in your post. Whoa is PDX.
Nope, not all. The planned second daily summer frequency on CMH-SEA is gone after May, back to 1x daily.
Not sure if all of the ones below happened yesterday, but quite a few of these happened over the course of the past few weeks. Certainly not unique to PDX
For late June (Friday June 24) these are some changes I noticed, some like SMF and SJC get some frequencies back in July (tentatively) but still....
PVR-SEA goes from 1x daily to 2x weekly
IDA-SEA goes from 2x daily to 1x daily
ABQ-SEA goes from 2x daily to 1x daily
SAT-SEA goes from 2x daily to 1x daily
MCI-SEA goes from 3x daily to 2x daily
MSP-SEA goes from 3x daily to 2x daily
ATL-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
AUS-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
HNL-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
OGG-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
ONT-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
RNO-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
SLC-SEA goes from 5x daily to 4x daily
FAI-SEA goes from 6x daily to 4x daily
KTN-SEA goes from 6x daily to 5x daily
JNU-SEA goes from 7x daily to 5x daily
SMF-SEA goes from 7x daily to 5x daily
SJC-SEA goes from 8x daily to 5x daily
e.t.c.
https://www.flightsfrom.com/SEA/destina ... -06-26#ABQ
wedgetail737 wrote:Question for all of you...and this might be a really stupid question. It seems like the conversations seem to be centric to pilots, but aren't shortages across the board, including flight attendants, gate agents, ramp agents, etc.?
hayzel777 wrote:there are junior assignment procedures at some airlines. Yea you have to comply with 117 but the pilot contract will cover how extra flights are to be assigned or not assignedwedgetail737 wrote:Question for all of you...and this might be a really stupid question. It seems like the conversations seem to be centric to pilots, but aren't shortages across the board, including flight attendants, gate agents, ramp agents, etc.?
Ground based worker shortages can easily be combatted with mandatory overtime and reduced staffing per turn (in exchange for a likely delay). Just look at WN right now.
If staffing really is critical, managers and other staff can step in to cover. No airline would ever cancel for a staffing shortfall on the ground (unless there’s a strike).
Not sure about AS but some flight attendant contracts do allow FA’s to be forced into working trips on their off days to cover the staffing shortfalls. American is a prime example of this.
Pilots cannot be forced into mandatory overtime. Open time pickup is at the pilots discretion and subject to compliance with 14 CFR Part 117 and the union contract (days off stipulation etc.).
hayzel777 wrote:Ground based worker shortages can easily be combatted with mandatory overtime.
wedgetail737 wrote:Question for all of you...and this might be a really stupid question. It seems like the conversations seem to be centric to pilots, but aren't shortages across the board, including flight attendants, gate agents, ramp agents, etc.?
Midwestindy wrote:CMHtraveler wrote:wedgetail737 wrote:
I suppose they're ALL out of PDX, as you suggested in your post. Whoa is PDX.
Nope, not all. The planned second daily summer frequency on CMH-SEA is gone after May, back to 1x daily.
Not sure if all of the ones below happened yesterday, but quite a few of these happened over the course of the past few weeks. Certainly not unique to PDX
For late June (Friday June 24) these are some changes I noticed, some like SMF and SJC get some frequencies back in July (tentatively) but still....
PVR-SEA goes from 1x daily to 2x weekly
IDA-SEA goes from 2x daily to 1x daily
ABQ-SEA goes from 2x daily to 1x daily
SAT-SEA goes from 2x daily to 1x daily
MCI-SEA goes from 3x daily to 2x daily
MSP-SEA goes from 3x daily to 2x daily
ATL-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
AUS-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
HNL-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
OGG-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
ONT-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
RNO-SEA goes from 4x daily to 3x daily
SLC-SEA goes from 5x daily to 4x daily
FAI-SEA goes from 6x daily to 4x daily
KTN-SEA goes from 6x daily to 5x daily
JNU-SEA goes from 7x daily to 5x daily
SMF-SEA goes from 7x daily to 5x daily
SJC-SEA goes from 8x daily to 5x daily
e.t.c.
https://www.flightsfrom.com/SEA/destina ... -06-26#ABQ
32andBelow wrote:Wow they canceled anchnl for 6 months almost. They really know how to stick it to their most loyal customers
GSPSPOT wrote:Is a one roundtrip per day market like MKE safe in all this?
jbs2886 wrote:32andBelow wrote:Wow they canceled anchnl for 6 months almost. They really know how to stick it to their most loyal customers
Well those customers must not be flying the route much for it to have been chopped...
roadrunner165 wrote:jbs2886 wrote:32andBelow wrote:Wow they canceled anchnl for 6 months almost. They really know how to stick it to their most loyal customers
Well those customers must not be flying the route much for it to have been chopped...
Perhaps, perhaps not. ANC to Hawaii is heavily used with companion fares. As someone else previously said, some routes are practically sponsored by Bank of America.
While on paper the flight probably is credited some amount for the companion fare, but nothing close to real cash values would be my guess. With the summer season and pilot shortage they’re going after money today, potentially screwing over some loyal fliers in the process.
F9Animal wrote:GSPSPOT wrote:Is a one roundtrip per day market like MKE safe in all this?
Absolutely safe. It's just temporary till Alaska can get itself back up and fully operational. Alot of airlines bit off more than they could chew when bringing back flights when things opened back up. I'm sure MKE will be just fine.
32andBelow wrote:Wow they canceled anchnl for 6 months almost. They really know how to stick it to their most loyal customers
usxguy wrote:32andBelow wrote:Wow they canceled anchnl for 6 months almost. They really know how to stick it to their most loyal customers
I just got burned by this too... was able to move to a daytime flight thru Seattle. But it now just means higher fares for Alaskans to Hawaii as we now to fly to Seattle & battle for the affordable fares on that route with everyone else.
32andBelow wrote:roadrunner165 wrote:jbs2886 wrote:
Well those customers must not be flying the route much for it to have been chopped...
Perhaps, perhaps not. ANC to Hawaii is heavily used with companion fares. As someone else previously said, some routes are practically sponsored by Bank of America.
While on paper the flight probably is credited some amount for the companion fare, but nothing close to real cash values would be my guess. With the summer season and pilot shortage they’re going after money today, potentially screwing over some loyal fliers in the process.
Hawaiian or delta should jump on it
AA737-823 wrote:It looks like ANC-SFO is gone, and also LAX-DAL, both for late June to early July dates.
That's making it tricky to get from ANC to DAL, as it rules out both California connection points. And the SEA-DAL times are, at this point, suboptimal.
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:We sit here, without knowing any specifics, and going on what makes sense. AS management knows the actual revenue generated and has predicted that the market is better not being served for 5 months, we shall see. I do think we will see HA jump in with an A321…..
32andBelow wrote:DaCubbyBearBar wrote:We sit here, without knowing any specifics, and going on what makes sense. AS management knows the actual revenue generated and has predicted that the market is better not being served for 5 months, we shall see. I do think we will see HA jump in with an A321…..
It just seems like they are in a total crisis and can’t even come close to staffing their schedule. There ar big connections between Alaska and Hawaii and a ton of Alaskans have houses in Hawaii and a ton of Hawaiians live in Alaska. Maybe it’s not their top performing route but it’s an important route. When you connect in Seattle you make almost no progress.
It almost seems 50/50 these days wether you are going to fly anything close to what you booked
F9Animal wrote:I notice alot of people are upset at the cuts. I get it. At the same time, we have seen the airline struggle to keep it's current schedule operating. Yes, these cuts are tough! But, the leadership at Alaska knows something dramatic must be done to slow the day of flight cancellations.
Alaska isn't reducing it's schedule because it's losing money. It's just reducing it temporarily, so it can get the staffing levels back up to where it needs to be. I think most airlines came back too fast, not realizing they didn't have enough bodies to make it work properly.
Let's revisit this current issue in about a year. I'm confident the airline by then will be back to increasing the flight schedules again.
jbs2886 wrote:F9Animal wrote:I notice alot of people are upset at the cuts. I get it. At the same time, we have seen the airline struggle to keep it's current schedule operating. Yes, these cuts are tough! But, the leadership at Alaska knows something dramatic must be done to slow the day of flight cancellations.
Alaska isn't reducing it's schedule because it's losing money. It's just reducing it temporarily, so it can get the staffing levels back up to where it needs to be. I think most airlines came back too fast, not realizing they didn't have enough bodies to make it work properly.
Let's revisit this current issue in about a year. I'm confident the airline by then will be back to increasing the flight schedules again.
Exactly, people don't want the routes they want cut, but are happy to see others' routes cut. I get it - it sucks, but AS isn't personally targeting some flyers - its doing what it needs to do have an operation that works with the current limitations.
32andBelow wrote:jbs2886 wrote:F9Animal wrote:I notice alot of people are upset at the cuts. I get it. At the same time, we have seen the airline struggle to keep it's current schedule operating. Yes, these cuts are tough! But, the leadership at Alaska knows something dramatic must be done to slow the day of flight cancellations.
Alaska isn't reducing it's schedule because it's losing money. It's just reducing it temporarily, so it can get the staffing levels back up to where it needs to be. I think most airlines came back too fast, not realizing they didn't have enough bodies to make it work properly.
Let's revisit this current issue in about a year. I'm confident the airline by then will be back to increasing the flight schedules again.
Exactly, people don't want the routes they want cut, but are happy to see others' routes cut. I get it - it sucks, but AS isn't personally targeting some flyers - its doing what it needs to do have an operation that works with the current limitations.
I guess it he cancelling a popular 6 hour once a day flight from the state with your name on it seems worse than cancelling a different flight that they operate several times per day.
jbs2886 wrote:32andBelow wrote:jbs2886 wrote:
Exactly, people don't want the routes they want cut, but are happy to see others' routes cut. I get it - it sucks, but AS isn't personally targeting some flyers - its doing what it needs to do have an operation that works with the current limitations.
I guess it he cancelling a popular 6 hour once a day flight from the state with your name on it seems worse than cancelling a different flight that they operate several times per day.
Please provide the stats to substantiate that ANC-HNL is a popular flight.
Also lol its worse because its the "Alaska" state name - didn't know AS can't touch those flights.
jbs2886 wrote:32andBelow wrote:jbs2886 wrote:
Exactly, people don't want the routes they want cut, but are happy to see others' routes cut. I get it - it sucks, but AS isn't personally targeting some flyers - its doing what it needs to do have an operation that works with the current limitations.
I guess it he cancelling a popular 6 hour once a day flight from the state with your name on it seems worse than cancelling a different flight that they operate several times per day.
Please provide the stats to substantiate that ANC-HNL is a popular flight.
Also lol its worse because its the "Alaska" state name - didn't know AS can't touch those flights.
32andBelow wrote:jbs2886 wrote:32andBelow wrote:I guess it he cancelling a popular 6 hour once a day flight from the state with your name on it seems worse than cancelling a different flight that they operate several times per day.
Please provide the stats to substantiate that ANC-HNL is a popular flight.
Also lol its worse because its the "Alaska" state name - didn't know AS can't touch those flights.
Alaska said it was because of staffing not because of economics. Maybe reducing flights off roads with other carriers will effect peoples travel plans less since other carriers can pick up the slack.
jplatts wrote:jbs2886 wrote:32andBelow wrote:I guess it he cancelling a popular 6 hour once a day flight from the state with your name on it seems worse than cancelling a different flight that they operate several times per day.
Please provide the stats to substantiate that ANC-HNL is a popular flight.
Also lol its worse because its the "Alaska" state name - didn't know AS can't touch those flights.
ANC-SEA-HNL is 1,333 miles longer (4,125 mi) than ANC-HNL nonstop (2,777 mi). It makes sense for ANC to have nonstop service to Hawaii with the significant backtracking that is required to connect to Alaska from Hawaii through the contiguous U.S.
The difference in travel time between an ANC-HNL nonstop flight and an ANC-SEA-HNL connection is more than 4 hours.
The situation is different with respect to the cuts that AS is making at PDX as some of the destinations that AS was serving nonstop from PDX have AA nonstop service to PHX or DFW in addition to AS nonstop service to SEA. Most of the markets in the Pacific Northwest that have AS nonstop service to PDX (or that did prior to the cuts that AS made at PDX) also have DL nonstop service to SLC or UA nonstop service to DEN/SFO.
The connecting options that are offered to the Pacific Northwest on AA through PHX/DFW, DL through SLC, and UA through DEN/SFO are better connecting options for most of the passengers connecting to the Pacific Northwest from other parts of the contiguous U.S. than the connecting options that AS was offering through SEA (at least for the Pacific Northwest destinations that AA, DL, or UA serve nonstop from contiguous U.S. hubs other than PDX/SEA).
jbs2886 wrote:32andBelow wrote:jbs2886 wrote:
Please provide the stats to substantiate that ANC-HNL is a popular flight.
Also lol its worse because its the "Alaska" state name - didn't know AS can't touch those flights.
Alaska said it was because of staffing not because of economics. Maybe reducing flights off roads with other carriers will effect peoples travel plans less since other carriers can pick up the slack.
you don't cut your high-performing (or even decently-performing) routes. While staffing may be the reason AS needed to cut routes, the routes it cut will almost certainly be based on economics.jplatts wrote:jbs2886 wrote:
Please provide the stats to substantiate that ANC-HNL is a popular flight.
Also lol its worse because its the "Alaska" state name - didn't know AS can't touch those flights.
ANC-SEA-HNL is 1,333 miles longer (4,125 mi) than ANC-HNL nonstop (2,777 mi). It makes sense for ANC to have nonstop service to Hawaii with the significant backtracking that is required to connect to Alaska from Hawaii through the contiguous U.S.
The difference in travel time between an ANC-HNL nonstop flight and an ANC-SEA-HNL connection is more than 4 hours.
The situation is different with respect to the cuts that AS is making at PDX as some of the destinations that AS was serving nonstop from PDX have AA nonstop service to PHX or DFW in addition to AS nonstop service to SEA. Most of the markets in the Pacific Northwest that have AS nonstop service to PDX (or that did prior to the cuts that AS made at PDX) also have DL nonstop service to SLC or UA nonstop service to DEN/SFO.
The connecting options that are offered to the Pacific Northwest on AA through PHX/DFW, DL through SLC, and UA through DEN/SFO are better connecting options for most of the passengers connecting to the Pacific Northwest from other parts of the contiguous U.S. than the connecting options that AS was offering through SEA (at least for the Pacific Northwest destinations that AA, DL, or UA serve nonstop from contiguous U.S. hubs other than PDX/SEA).
Lol so any routing that is longer "makes sense" to have a nonstop. Almost every connection is going to have a longer routing. Come on.
jbs2886 wrote:Lol so any routing that is longer "makes sense" to have a nonstop. Almost every connection is going to have a longer routing. Come on.
Prost wrote:The MSA on the west coast that has the closest population to Anchorage is Salem, OR. Salem has about 433,000, Anchorage has about 400,000. Salem also doesn’t have HNL service.
I think with AS needing to thin the operation, ANC-HNL makes sense, as much as it sucks for Alaskans.
If it was the choice of flying a 4th SEA-HNL or one ANC-HNL, and the ANC-HNL wouldn’t perform as well as the SEA-HNL, I understand why it would be cut. You can route the ANC passengers via SEA, but lower 48 passengers wouldn’t go through ANC to get to HNL.
AlaskaA321NEO wrote:Prost wrote:The MSA on the west coast that has the closest population to Anchorage is Salem, OR. Salem has about 433,000, Anchorage has about 400,000. Salem also doesn’t have HNL service.
I think with AS needing to thin the operation, ANC-HNL makes sense, as much as it sucks for Alaskans.
If it was the choice of flying a 4th SEA-HNL or one ANC-HNL, and the ANC-HNL wouldn’t perform as well as the SEA-HNL, I understand why it would be cut. You can route the ANC passengers via SEA, but lower 48 passengers wouldn’t go through ANC to get to HNL.
This has to be one of the worst comparisons I’ve seen on A.net so far.
BoeingGuy wrote:AlaskaA321NEO wrote:Prost wrote:The MSA on the west coast that has the closest population to Anchorage is Salem, OR. Salem has about 433,000, Anchorage has about 400,000. Salem also doesn’t have HNL service.
I think with AS needing to thin the operation, ANC-HNL makes sense, as much as it sucks for Alaskans.
If it was the choice of flying a 4th SEA-HNL or one ANC-HNL, and the ANC-HNL wouldn’t perform as well as the SEA-HNL, I understand why it would be cut. You can route the ANC passengers via SEA, but lower 48 passengers wouldn’t go through ANC to get to HNL.
I agree with that with that. If it was/is a poor performer then it should be cut or reduced to seasonal. I don’t think many Alaskans fly to Hawaii during the summer months. It was just that absurd comment they led me to say something.
This has to be one of the worst comparisons I’ve seen on A.net so far.
Agreed it’s not a good example. However, there was a recent chart on another web site that we aren’t allowed to say on A.net that showed the performance of HNL routes. ANC was shown as a poor performer. A lot of HNL routes performed poorly actually.
Prost wrote:The MSA on the west coast that has the closest population to Anchorage is Salem, OR. Salem has about 433,000, Anchorage has about 400,000. Salem also doesn’t have HNL service.
I think with AS needing to thin the operation, ANC-HNL makes sense, as much as it sucks for Alaskans.
If it was the choice of flying a 4th SEA-HNL or one ANC-HNL, and the ANC-HNL wouldn’t perform as well as the SEA-HNL, I understand why it would be cut. You can route the ANC passengers via SEA, but lower 48 passengers wouldn’t go through ANC to get to HNL.
Prost wrote:The MSA on the west coast that has the closest population to Anchorage is Salem, OR. Salem has about 433,000, Anchorage has about 400,000. Salem also doesn’t have HNL service.
I think with AS needing to thin the operation, ANC-HNL makes sense, as much as it sucks for Alaskans.
If it was the choice of flying a 4th SEA-HNL or one ANC-HNL, and the ANC-HNL wouldn’t perform as well as the SEA-HNL, I understand why it would be cut. You can route the ANC passengers via SEA, but lower 48 passengers wouldn’t go through ANC to get to HNL.
32andBelow wrote:Prost wrote:The MSA on the west coast that has the closest population to Anchorage is Salem, OR. Salem has about 433,000, Anchorage has about 400,000. Salem also doesn’t have HNL service.
I think with AS needing to thin the operation, ANC-HNL makes sense, as much as it sucks for Alaskans.
If it was the choice of flying a 4th SEA-HNL or one ANC-HNL, and the ANC-HNL wouldn’t perform as well as the SEA-HNL, I understand why it would be cut. You can route the ANC passengers via SEA, but lower 48 passengers wouldn’t go through ANC to get to HNL.
You need to realize that anchorage itself is a hub and people can come in from all the communities Alaska and ravn flies to and then connect to flights in anchorage
Midwestindy wrote:32andBelow wrote:Prost wrote:The MSA on the west coast that has the closest population to Anchorage is Salem, OR. Salem has about 433,000, Anchorage has about 400,000. Salem also doesn’t have HNL service.
I think with AS needing to thin the operation, ANC-HNL makes sense, as much as it sucks for Alaskans.
If it was the choice of flying a 4th SEA-HNL or one ANC-HNL, and the ANC-HNL wouldn’t perform as well as the SEA-HNL, I understand why it would be cut. You can route the ANC passengers via SEA, but lower 48 passengers wouldn’t go through ANC to get to HNL.
You need to realize that anchorage itself is a hub and people can come in from all the communities Alaska and ravn flies to and then connect to flights in anchorage
To be clear, very little demand for Hawaii service exists outside of ANC.
ANC-Hawaii was close to 250 PDEW for February for example, while the next highest Alaskan market was FAI-Hawaii at barely 35 (equivalent in PDEW to SBP, ORF, BFL-Hawaii).
https://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/ ... tatistics/
If you look at the connection data, FAI makes up over half of XYZ-ANC-HNL connections, and an even higher % for routes like OGG & KOA.