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chonetsao
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Re: DL increasing LAX-SYD to 10x weekly A359

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:35 am

I wonder if DL is seeing a big weakness in Asia demand this winter and is utilising its aircraft on Australia instead.

DL is now the de facto challenger on US-AU routes following AA+QF and UA+VA+NZ. It has to maintain or increase market share to remain competitive. Maybe it is doing the 10 weekly to stop AA resuming the LAX-SYD route knowing there would be a bloodbath in fares ahead.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: DL increasing LAX-SYD to 10x weekly A359

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:40 am

chonetsao wrote:
I wonder if DL is seeing a big weakness in Asia demand this winter and is utilising its aircraft on Australia instead.

DL is now the de facto challenger on US-AU routes following AA+QF and UA+VA+NZ. It has to maintain or increase market share to remain competitive. Maybe it is doing the 10 weekly to stop AA resuming the LAX-SYD route knowing there would be a bloodbath in fares ahead.


UA+NZ+VA are not together. The 2 UA partnerships are separate immunised UA+NZ JBA, and a separate UA/VA codeshare and FF agreement (which required no approvals on the Australian end).

Considering the ongoing separate QF/NZ codeshare and FF domestic agreement and the revenue that comes from that agreement, it will be a long while before NZ and VA works together again in Australia/NZ.
 
O23
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:52 am

tjerome wrote:
DL will start flying PVD-MSP 5x weekly beginning June 6th and upgrading to daily on July 7th on an A320. That will be year round, they did add it seasonally last summer but was last served in 2014. Also, looks like CR9 service to LGA started out of PVD earlier this year and DTW is seeing 717s. Interesting adds for PVD, I'd guess it's a part of the growing market share in BOS since for some of metro Boston, PVD would be closer (and certainly cost less) than going to BOS.

https://www.pvdairport.com/corporate/ne ... -laguardia
https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... treal.html



Looks like that got trimmed back down to only summer daily on an A319 for MSP and a three daily CRJ-900 to DTW
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL increasing LAX-SYD to 10x weekly A359

Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:43 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Having dozens of TPAC-capable aircraft is a situation DL hasn't been in since... well, ever.
So it's no surprise to see them expanding in ways such as this.


Eight 777 + ten 77L (the last delivered by 3/2010) + sixteen 744 until DL started retiring the 744 in late 2014.

One can argue that route fragmentation (n/s flights to China, primarily) was rapidly making the 744s uneconomic (see CO EWR-HKG, 2001), but DL didn't so much build on the NW TPAC network as dismantle it. It was recognized as significantly underperforming in yield vs. competition.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: DL increasing LAX-SYD to 10x weekly A359

Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:11 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Having dozens of TPAC-capable aircraft is a situation DL hasn't been in since... well, ever.
So it's no surprise to see them expanding in ways such as this.


Eight 777 + ten 77L (the last delivered by 3/2010) + sixteen 744 until DL started retiring the 744 in late 2014.

One can argue that route fragmentation (n/s flights to China, primarily) was rapidly making the 744s uneconomic (see CO EWR-HKG, 2001), but DL didn't so much build on the NW TPAC network as dismantle it. It was recognized as significantly underperforming in yield vs. competition.


That's exactly right. While the NW TPAC network was big (and for its time formidable) in the 1980s and 1990s, it changed very little well up to the merger. NW was heavily reliant on the NRT hub and not much of that changed as the operation continued pretty much as is, with some route trimmings, post merger. DL tried to pry JL away from AA and OW during JL's emergence from financial difficulties but didn't succeed. From that point on, DL had an outsized presence at NRT with no feed and no partner. It moved everything to HND which was the smart and only solution since it was pretty much an O&D station.

DL really didn't invest in the TPAC network post merger but had enough planes to run it and grow it, just not profitably. So, the argument that the abundance of A350s now marks a turning point is irrelevant. The 747's were inefficient and getting long in the tooth. The 777's were used all over the network, and not specifically focused on Asia service. DL struggled with a number of routes post merger into Asia that could have, and should have succeeded. Obviously, now it is all different and TPAC will take years to rebuild.
 
pgh234
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:21 am

sea13 wrote:
Curious as to what Delta will do once the next phase of construction at SLC is done which will give 20+ more gates to DL. What are are peoples thoughts of what expansion could look like at SLC. Nonstop to ICN? More flights on the A220 to places such as GRR, TYS, RIC, etc.?


Considering SLC has lost all of their nonstops to the Midwest (that had around 95% load factors and sold out FC cabins), I would hope/expect to see IND, CMH, CLE, and PIT come back first.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL increasing LAX-SYD to 10x weekly A359

Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:27 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL really didn't invest in the TPAC network post merger but had enough planes to run it and grow it, just not profitably. So, the argument that the abundance of A350s now marks a turning point is irrelevant.

Neither of those statements is even remotely accurate. :lol:

Not sure what your definition of "invest" may include.... but the airline refurbished its TPAC fleet before any other, launched Australia with its own metal, (re)added multiple new and resumed Midwest, Southeast, and even Mountain-zone nonstops to east Asia (DTW-HKG, SLC-NRT, ATL-PVG/ICN), used government leverage to maximize access to limited Asian operations --- and did it all in the midst of the second largest financial downturn that the USA had then ever seen.

....before creating an additional west coast hub, focused primarily on Asian expansion, shortly thereafter.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:33 am

sea13 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Hope they get rid of the hard stands. Thats about 13 gates….


Once the concourse A east expansion is done, all the DL/OO flights will move there from the hard stands.


What is DL's net gain of gates when Phase II is complete vs. gate count + hard stands in 2019?
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:02 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
sea13 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Hope they get rid of the hard stands. Thats about 13 gates….


Once the concourse A east expansion is done, all the DL/OO flights will move there from the hard stands.


What is DL's net gain of gates when Phase II is complete vs. gate count + hard stands in 2019?


Probably a negative number. The old airport had tons of RJ gates which the new one won’t.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: DL increasing LAX-SYD to 10x weekly A359

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:09 pm

Yes the costs of opening a new station are extremely high- I've seen internal route performance reports. It's much more economical to increase frequency at an existing station as the infrastructure is already in place. Yes you can subcontract to reduce some costs although the service levels take a hit (I won't mention the DL fiasco at LAX when they very briefly handled AF years ago). As mentioned upthread, DL needs a place to send excess capacity in North American low season- so a cheap option is just run an extra flight to SYD. The costs of opening BNE/MEL for a less than daily longhaul service isn't worthwhile as the norm is a new station needs 2 years to become profitable.
 
CrimsonBeam
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:18 pm

This is a big year for SLC. Eurowings Discover is beginning FRA, LHR is resuming, Air Canada is returning on the A220, and Spirit is coming to Utah for the first time. My hopes for the airport are ICN (likely that this will happen once market recovers), Midwest routes return, MTY, KEF, and maybe LIH or KOA.
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:30 pm

SLC suffers from it's geography, IMO. It's too far West. It works out well for passengers originating in the West coast who want to visit the mountain zone but those are states with declining population and fleeing businesses. DEN is a much better positioned hub as it's closer to the fastest growing states and the East coast however it is a dumpster fire right now and there's no end in sight so that alone may push passengers, especially business travelers to use SLC instead.
The cost of living in Utah has sky rocketed in the last few years, mostly driven by high home prices and that is keeping businesses from relocating to Utah and instead choosing to go to places like Texas.
I was recently in SLC touring the University and was outright shocked at how devoid of traffic and people the city and its surroundings were on a typical Tuesday/Wednesday morning. Utah may be one of the fastest growing states by population but these new residents are certainly not in SLC. At first, no traffic congestion may seem like a good thing but if you have no population then you have no workers for businesses to tap into.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: DL increasing LAX-SYD to 10x weekly A359

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:36 pm

I tend to think it’s wishful thinking that DL will launch MEL or BNE anytime soon. They seem content with SYD flights, even if the idea of pax from other cities having to experience the SYD transfer is the stuff of nightmares for many :(

Maybe in future they will see a role for additional destinations, but I can see a significant focus on SYD for much of North American flights for some time to come. MEL and BNE will have a role, but will likely have to work a lot harder to get much attention
 
eal
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:05 pm

airbazar wrote:
It works out well for passengers originating in the West coast who want to visit the mountain zone but those are states with declining population and fleeing businesses.


I think this is a but of an over exaggeration of the shifting dynamics of what's going in the US labor/business market. California is shedding some folks, but it's no great exodus. Finance and tech continue to have their main ops centered in California, the top talent continues to be sent to California. Beyond an anecdotes the big costal cities continue to dominate in job growth: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ge-workers. It's sad to say, but the folks who are leaving are the ones that can't afford the big cities, not the upwardly mobile folks. I'll have you guess which of these two cohorts flies Spirit to MCO vs Delta to Seoul.

Similarly, the Mountain West, and particularly the Mountain West-Sun Belt is having a renaissance. Big population growth, not decline. Business are mostly relocating to the other big cities in the area: Denver, Phoenix, etc. But the real big boys are not going to leave the Coast, they'll open up satellite offices but the core will remain coastal. The reason is simple: from CEO downward to the overpaid yuppie, where are the life amenities? Where can I flash around my nice job and spend my fat paycheck? In reserved, stereotypically Mormon Salt Lake City or in bustling San Francisco/Seattle/LA?
 
Q
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:11 pm

Maybe Delta already option ordered Boeing 737 MAX 8 about 100 of them. MAX 8 may be using in SLC hub.

Q
 
phxa340
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:55 pm

I avoid SLC like the plague. The airport designers and their defense of that insanely long walk to the new terminal is absurd. I know this thread is aimed at origination but I would never do a tight connection in SLC now. Also the next gen TSA area is also a joke with backups due almost entirely to the new technology (which IMO has made it so much worse).
 
freakyrat
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:03 pm

sea13 wrote:
Curious as to what Delta will do once the next phase of construction at SLC is done which will give 20+ more gates to DL. What are are peoples thoughts of what expansion could look like at SLC. Nonstop to ICN? More flights on the A220 to places such as GRR, TYS, RIC, etc.?


Long thin routes are hard to do as you have to have a healthy mix of O/D passengers vs connecting passengers. F9 had some success with SBN when they operated as a connecting carrier at DEN. They abandoned that concept because yields for them are better as a point to point carrier. However they did fly over 21,000 passengers to DEN and a like amount to SBN on 182 flights on a 133 seat Airbus A319 that operated 3 times a week. That is an average of 115 passengers per flight. The flight did well with the skiers and snowboarders. This flight was handled by Delta at SBN. The SBN manager told me that based on the data she saw with F9 she believes she has the traffic for a daily SLC flight. SLC would also provide better Western connections than MSP. Unifi which handles under wing services for Delta at SBN also has all GSE Equipment in place for a large assortment of Delta and Delta Connection aircraft.

It also appears to me that Delta is moving away from small RJ's and going to an all mixed class CRJ900/E170/E175 operation with Delta Connection so the A220 would be the future logical step in the Delta Connection Cities as the traffic recovers and even exceeds 2019 levels.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:12 pm

phxa340 wrote:
I avoid SLC like the plague. The airport designers and their defense of that insanely long walk to the new terminal is absurd. I know this thread is aimed at origination but I would never do a tight connection in SLC now. Also the next gen TSA area is also a joke with backups due almost entirely to the new technology (which IMO has made it so much worse).


The rollout of those Anallogic CT Scanners at SBN a few weeks ago was a complete anal disaster. Especially since Delta and American operate all morning flights with large CRJ700's and 900's. United is still on 2 CRJ200's and then you throw in an Allegiant A319 to Vegas and TSA had over 600 passengers to clear for flights between 6 am and 9 am with one of 2 security lines open because the other one was down for installation of the other CT scanner. This resulted in missed flights etc. But that is a story for another thread.

The walk at SLC will be better after the full terminal buildout. SLC could have also installed something like that overhead train that Northwest originally installed at DTW.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:46 pm

Unfortunately, the SLC hub essentially has one big factor going against it: geography.

It's situated too far to the Northwest for most meaningful East/West Coast connections, and is really only useful for connections between the East and the Northwest (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah), and even then, DTW and MSP can cover almost every relevant destination nonstop, with the exception of some smaller OO markets. It's also in a poor location geographically for connections to/from the Southwest from the East Coast.

Take for example a traveler going from Charlotte to Tucson, which currently lacks a nonstop. If you compare Great Circle Routes for CLT to TUS via SLC, PHX, MSP, DFW, ORD, and IAH, CLT-TUS via SLC is the longest route pair...even CLT-TUS via MSP and CLT-TUS via ORD are shorter.

This is evident in the lack of SLC service from markets the likes of FLG, ELP, SBA, Colorado Ski Markets, BFL, MRY, SBP, etc. For connections to those markets, DEN (and to some extent PHX) is a much superior hub, geographically speaking. To me, the lack of service on SLC-ELP is the best example of this.

DL service to the East Coast, for example, is limited to DL hubs/strongholds, Florida, and major metro areas. IIRC, they tried smaller East Coast markets (BDL comes to mind) and it quickly failed. The only individual airports on the East Coast that are not Delta hubs or in Florida that have been able to support more than a single frequency to SLC on DL are PHL, EWR, and CLT. Compare that to the likes of UA at DEN, which is able to support a twice daily frequency to a small market on the East Coast, like RIC.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:09 pm

I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers. And there are plenty of routings through hubs that are inefficient but pax choose them. Example, flying from the Midwest (MI/OH/Western PA/IN) to the western Southeast regions such as LA/TN/AR/AL/etc you're changing in DTW/ORD/IAD/CLT/ATL depending on airline choice. Woefully out of the way in most or all cases. MSP/IAH yeah OK those are larger cities than SLC but they aren't horribly convenient geographically to be drawing all the connecting traffic they get. One can always pick out routes that are inefficient for certain hubs as compared to others. . . .

Delta is such a superior carrier IMHO that they'd garner a lot of loyalty if they offered more choice over SLC, and soon they will have the room to do so. They have to be undertaking such a large expansion because they have big plans, no?
 
flyfresno
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:10 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Unfortunately, the SLC hub essentially has one big factor going against it: geography.

It's situated too far to the Northwest for most meaningful East/West Coast connections, and is really only useful for connections between the East and the Northwest (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah), and even then, DTW and MSP can cover almost every relevant destination nonstop, with the exception of some smaller OO markets. It's also in a poor location geographically for connections to/from the Southwest from the East Coast.

Take for example a traveler going from Charlotte to Tucson, which currently lacks a nonstop. If you compare Great Circle Routes for CLT to TUS via SLC, PHX, MSP, DFW, ORD, and IAH, CLT-TUS via SLC is the longest route pair...even CLT-TUS via MSP and CLT-TUS via ORD are shorter.

This is evident in the lack of SLC service from markets the likes of FLG, ELP, SBA, Colorado Ski Markets, BFL, MRY, SBP, etc. For connections to those markets, DEN (and to some extent PHX) is a much superior hub, geographically speaking. To me, the lack of service on SLC-ELP is the best example of this.

DL service to the East Coast, for example, is limited to DL hubs/strongholds, Florida, and major metro areas. IIRC, they tried smaller East Coast markets (BDL comes to mind) and it quickly failed. The only individual airports on the East Coast that are not Delta hubs or in Florida that have been able to support more than a single frequency to SLC on DL are PHL, EWR, and CLT. Compare that to the likes of UA at DEN, which is able to support a twice daily frequency to a small market on the East Coast, like RIC.


I think SLC serves its purpose, which is to connect cities within the intermountain west as well as to connect smaller markets on the west coast to larger markets in the midwest and east. While ELP might be a good example for your case, I don't think some of your other cities are. BFL/MRY/SBP/SBA - SLC - CLT (if they existed) would all be extremely close in total travel time to connecting in DEN on those routes. DEN's advantage is that it is further east, so it both 1) is in range of most of the US on regional aircraft, and 2) requires less of a "commitment" of mainline aircraft on routes headed east. It's also a superior airport in design; aircraft inbound to SLC regularly experienced airborne delays (either delay vectors, speed reductions, or even occasionally holding) on clear days simply because there are only three total runways that airlines can use; DEN can operate all six runways at the same time under many circumstances (and certainly on nice weather days with light winds). However, DEN also has its faults. The airport is getting *much* busier (one only need look at the expansions going on every concourse to see that) and it is a hub for three airlines; Delta has SLC basically to itself as a hub. SLC also enjoys robust O&D traffic due to both outdoor attractions, the LDS church, and business/government traffic. I think SLC is poised to grow once more gates open.
 
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william
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:22 pm

SLC will never be DEN, lets keep in mind Skywest did alot of the SLC hub lifting with RJs. But SLC has a place as a hub and for Delta,it replaced DFW (though I bet Delta regrets giving that business away to AA), and the new facilities are more attractive to passengers.

Delta in a short period of time will have new or refurbished facilities at all of their major hubs.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:35 pm

SLC is in an excellent geographic location for a hub; the mere fact that in 2019 it served almost 27 million people for an MSA population of only 1.3 million proves this. In fact SLC probably has the highest number of passengers per MSA population in the US. Furthermore, Salt lake City's isolation from a large number of other population centers makes it more dependable on air service.... further bolstering the hub.

So it's not convenient to use SLC when traveling from CLT to TUS. Who cares, all hubs can't be all things to all people. As far as longer routes that are unserved, often this has more to do with the airline's network than the geography of a certain hub. Why offer BDL-SLC and fly past DTW and MSP? But if DL didn't have a hub in DTW and MSP then BDL-SLC all of a sudden makes sense.
 
n9801f
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:17 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I don't believe so. I thought we would see an additional Australian city before more than daily LAX-SYD, but glad to see an increase nonetheless.

I will add this is funny in that so many people were convinced DL would drop LAX-SYD when the Virgin Australia deal ended.

The current industry environment is highly unusual, to say the least. The proportion of cargo revenue is often higher and there's an abundance of unassigned widebodies.

So although it's nice to see this add, I don't think it demonstrates viability in more normal times. Especially since Delta lacks the two-sided network strength of its competitors on the route.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:18 pm

SBN-SLC would be ideal on Delta for westbound connections that are presently served by a morning MSP flight. However connecting through DEN is a better option on UA than ORD because of DEN's location. Flight Demographics have changed in the area since F9 had their DEN flights and now most passengers business and otherwise are going to Texas. This is why American came back to the airport with flights to DFW. Because of all the business traffic between SBN and AUS/HOU/SAT they can also charge premium fares. DL coming out of the Pandemic only has 5 flights per day now with 3 to ATL 1 to MSP and 1 to DTW where they had 4 to ATL 4 to DTW and 2 to MSP. DL also upgraded most flights to CRJ900's so the seat totals and number of flights is kind of a wash.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:28 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.

No...ORD/MSP/DEN/DTW/PHX are all more geographically suited to connect those traffic flows...connecting in SLC adds roughly 150-250 miles to the trip. It's often actually even geographically shorter to connect in NYC or WAS versus SLC...BOS-SAN via SLC is 2731mi while BOS-SAN via IAD is only 2666mi. The only place in California where SLC has an advantage is to the Bay Area and SMF.

Again, keep in mind, DL only serves major cities in California from SLC. No service to SBA/SBP/ACV/MRY/STS/BFL etc.

It's telling that SBA is able to support service to DFW/ORD/DEN but cannot sustain service to SLC.

I agree that airlines and hubs cannot be something to everyone...that isn't the point. The SLC hub clearly serves a role in the Delta network, which is to serve as an Intermountain West and lower Pacific Northwest connecting hub.

flyPIT wrote:
if DL didn't have a hub in DTW and MSP then BDL-SLC all of a sudden makes sense.

But they do have a hub in DTW and MSP...
 
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diverdave
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:32 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
SLC is such a curious case study. Western market with explosive population growth. Large but crumbling at-risk OO operation branded as Delta. Some very successful markets and many failed experiments. Doubling from 46 gates to 92 in the next 5 years. Top tourism destination. Great geography for connections. Business friendly.

I don't think anyone knows what will happen even if they think they do.


I wonder if Southwest has dibs on any of the new gates....

David
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:46 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Unfortunately, the SLC hub essentially has one big factor going against it: geography.

It's situated too far to the Northwest for most meaningful East/West Coast connections, and is really only useful for connections between the East and the Northwest (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah), and even then, DTW and MSP can cover almost every relevant destination nonstop, with the exception of some smaller OO markets. It's also in a poor location geographically for connections to/from the Southwest from the East Coast.

Take for example a traveler going from Charlotte to Tucson, which currently lacks a nonstop. If you compare Great Circle Routes for CLT to TUS via SLC, PHX, MSP, DFW, ORD, and IAH, CLT-TUS via SLC is the longest route pair...even CLT-TUS via MSP and CLT-TUS via ORD are shorter.


One can look at Great Circle Mapper, with domestic O&D counts by major U.S. airports, and with ranking of U.S. airports by passenger counts to understand where domestic passengers really fly. CLT-TUS isn't exactly a top route.

What's the PDEW on CLT (barely one of the county's largest 30 O&D markets) to TUS (the country's 77th largest airport by arriving or departing domestic passengers)? Yours is a contrived example.

Further, it really doesn't matter that a DEN connection is 350sm shorter than thru SLC when DFW is a routing 230sm shorter still.

There's the remark that SLC isn't DEN. (It's a remark I've made in another thread.) It's not going to rival DEN because it has such a small fraction of DEN's O&D that it's going to be stuck with lower frequency (which impedes connectivity) or smaller/higher CASM aircraft. I will, however, point out that the MSP and DTW hubs co-exist with proximate CHI hubs, because CHI gets split three ways, just as DEN gets split about 2 1/3 ways these days. WN is going to keep UA's DEN ambitions in check on both yield and frequency. UA is unlikely, in the next two decades, to grow its DEN hub to the flight/destination scale of today's ATL/DFW/CLT. Just as DL needs to find a way to minimize SLC's RJ dependency, so too does UA at DEN.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:52 pm

I think you need to wait for the construction to be completed.
Just look at the complaints about the out of the way concourse connector tunnel-which is temporary.
Expansion likely would result in expanded complaints.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:53 pm

airbazar wrote:
SLC suffers from it's geography, IMO. It's too far West. It works out well for passengers originating in the West coast who want to visit the mountain zone but those are states with declining population and fleeing businesses..


Please identify what states in the west have declining populations and fleeing businesses.
 
luckyone
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:59 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I can’t see any end to the region’s growth.

Oh I can. Water. Eventually Western States will not be able to source or store enough water.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:32 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
airbazar wrote:
SLC suffers from it's geography, IMO. It's too far West. It works out well for passengers originating in the West coast who want to visit the mountain zone but those are states with declining population and fleeing businesses..


Please identify what states in the west have declining populations and fleeing businesses.


The response is going to be California. It does have some migration of population and business to Texas (Tesla and Oracle namely). But, as others stated, "declining population and fleeing businesses" is FAR overstated - these cities and states are extremely strong still, although sure there are a lot of adjustments happening because of tech companies, remote work, and immigration limitations since COVID. This is simply a media narrative created by one side that the coastal states are struggling and the "real Americans" don't like the type of government there.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:37 pm

I agree SLC has pretty decent location for a hub - it certainly isn't bad. But, I think the major things holding it back is it isn't a huge city (ATL, DFW, etc.) / large city with outsized business presence (e.g., CLT with banking) and that DL has two coastal hubs (LAX and SEA) that siphon a lot of traffic that would otherwise flow over SLC. I see continued build up of DL in SLC, but I don't see some massive growth.
 
trexel94
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:40 pm

pgh234 wrote:
sea13 wrote:
Curious as to what Delta will do once the next phase of construction at SLC is done which will give 20+ more gates to DL. What are are peoples thoughts of what expansion could look like at SLC. Nonstop to ICN? More flights on the A220 to places such as GRR, TYS, RIC, etc.?


Considering SLC has lost all of their nonstops to the Midwest (that had around 95% load factors and sold out FC cabins), I would hope/expect to see IND, CMH, CLE, and PIT come back first.

SLC still has flights to CVG, OMA, MKE, MCI and STL
 
SESGDL
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:43 pm

USAirALB wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.

No...ORD/MSP/DEN/DTW/PHX are all more geographically suited to connect those traffic flows...connecting in SLC adds roughly 150-250 miles to the trip. It's often actually even geographically shorter to connect in NYC or WAS versus SLC...BOS-SAN via SLC is 2731mi while BOS-SAN via IAD is only 2666mi. The only place in California where SLC has an advantage is to the Bay Area and SMF.

Again, keep in mind, DL only serves major cities in California from SLC. No service to SBA/SBP/ACV/MRY/STS/BFL etc.

It's telling that SBA is able to support service to DFW/ORD/DEN but cannot sustain service to SLC.

I agree that airlines and hubs cannot be something to everyone...that isn't the point. The SLC hub clearly serves a role in the Delta network, which is to serve as an Intermountain West and lower Pacific Northwest connecting hub.

flyPIT wrote:
if DL didn't have a hub in DTW and MSP then BDL-SLC all of a sudden makes sense.

But they do have a hub in DTW and MSP...


I always find it a little comical when people mention great circle mapper distances. Do people really think the average person is calculating which hub will get them from Point A to Point B via the shortest path? If that were the case CLT and ATL wouldn't be the powerhouses they are today. People buy on price and price alone (with schedule being a distant 2nd), if the price is right people will travel completely out of their way. SLC is a majority O&D destination and will continue to be given the recent and continued population growth. SLC will never be able to compete with DEN and doesn't need to as it serves its function well. And listing smaller California cities is irrelevant to this conversation as it's not a function of SLC's lack of strength as a hub and more about how DL has been more aggressive with dumping 50-seat RJs (UA is way behind on this front and thus, still serves a lot of small cities with 50-seat RJs). Look for a lot of these size cities to lose more service in the future as AA and UA work to dump them as well.

Jeremy
 
SESGDL
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:46 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I agree SLC has pretty decent location for a hub - it certainly isn't bad. But, I think the major things holding it back is it isn't a huge city (ATL, DFW, etc.) / large city with outsized business presence (e.g., CLT with banking) and that DL has two coastal hubs (LAX and SEA) that siphon a lot of traffic that would otherwise flow over SLC. I see continued build up of DL in SLC, but I don't see some massive growth.


CLT being a banking center has little to do with its success and size. CLT instead is a massive hub due to its location (the only other large hub in the American Southeast - arguably the most populated region of the country) and its extremely low average CPE. Last stats I saw showed CLT being over 80% connecting passengers, actually considerably smaller in O&D than SLC.

Jeremy
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:55 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I agree SLC has pretty decent location for a hub - it certainly isn't bad. But, I think the major things holding it back is it isn't a huge city (ATL, DFW, etc.) / large city with outsized business presence (e.g., CLT with banking) and that DL has two coastal hubs (LAX and SEA) that siphon a lot of traffic that would otherwise flow over SLC. I see continued build up of DL in SLC, but I don't see some massive growth.


Not sure LAX and SEA really siphon traffic from SLC, which operates as a mid-continent type hub for DL. SLC's business base continues to grow and as it does, I can see DL adding more service there.

CLT's position as a major hub is less about financial services and more about location and operating costs. Geographically, it is well suited for connections and much of its traffic is just that. O&D for CLT is not outsized. The airport's operating costs are advantageous too.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:13 pm

SESGDL wrote:
I always find it a little comical when people mention great circle mapper distances. Do people really think the average person is calculating which hub will get them from Point A to Point B via the shortest path? If that were the case CLT and ATL wouldn't be the powerhouses they are today. People buy on price and price alone (with schedule being a distant 2nd), if the price is right people will travel completely out of their way. SLC is a majority O&D destination and will continue to be given the recent and continued population growth. SLC will never be able to compete with DEN and doesn't need to as it serves its function well. And listing smaller California cities is irrelevant to this conversation as it's not a function of SLC's lack of strength as a hub and more about how DL has been more aggressive with dumping 50-seat RJs (UA is way behind on this front and thus, still serves a lot of small cities with 50-seat RJs). Look for a lot of these size cities to lose more service in the future as AA and UA work to dump them as well.

Jeremy

Of course not...multiple posters on this thread have said that the hub has excellent geography for connections, and I used Great Circle Distances (and my example about the lack of SLC-Secondary California cities relative to other hubs) to show that the hub is poorly placed to capture most East Coast/West Coast traffic flows, outside of the intermountain West.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:01 pm

O23 wrote:
tjerome wrote:
DL will start flying PVD-MSP 5x weekly beginning June 6th and upgrading to daily on July 7th on an A320. That will be year round, they did add it seasonally last summer but was last served in 2014. Also, looks like CR9 service to LGA started out of PVD earlier this year and DTW is seeing 717s. Interesting adds for PVD, I'd guess it's a part of the growing market share in BOS since for some of metro Boston, PVD would be closer (and certainly cost less) than going to BOS.

https://www.pvdairport.com/corporate/ne ... -laguardia
https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... treal.html



Looks like that got trimmed back down to only summer daily on an A319 for MSP and a three daily CRJ-900 to DTW


The MSP-PVD flight on DL is very much a response to Sun Country. The fact that the DL start and drop dates coincides very close to the start and drop dates of SY’s MSP-PVD service makes it pretty obvious.

Delta has been more aggressive lately in responding to SY adds at MSP and NK adds at DTW. With more of the PostCovid market being leisure based, it is not that surprising.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4217
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:30 pm

SESGDL wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
I agree SLC has pretty decent location for a hub - it certainly isn't bad. But, I think the major things holding it back is it isn't a huge city (ATL, DFW, etc.) / large city with outsized business presence (e.g., CLT with banking) and that DL has two coastal hubs (LAX and SEA) that siphon a lot of traffic that would otherwise flow over SLC. I see continued build up of DL in SLC, but I don't see some massive growth.


CLT being a banking center has little to do with its success and size. CLT instead is a massive hub due to its location (the only other large hub in the American Southeast - arguably the most populated region of the country) and its extremely low average CPE. Last stats I saw showed CLT being over 80% connecting passengers, actually considerably smaller in O&D than SLC.

Jeremy


Looking at the percentage of connecting traffic isn't relevant - its the base. Total O&D passengers, including premium travel. ATL and DFW have huge connecting percentages, too, but their O&D markets are significant as well. Even if that banking traffic isn't as important now, I think it was significant in the build-up at a minimum.
 
User avatar
DLHAM
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:31 pm

A friend just told me that Delta returns to Stuttgart from November 2022, I looked up and the flights are indeed bookable, unser their old flight numbers 116/117 with a 763ER.
I heard that this flight got axed just as DUS, with axed I mean axed and not paused. Anyone with more insight?
If this returns I would have expected a return in early 2023 and not with the Winter season.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4217
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:35 pm

DLHAM wrote:
A friend just told me that Delta returns to Stuttgart from November 2022, I looked up and the flights are indeed bookable, unser their old flight numbers 116/117 with a 763ER.
I heard that this flight got axed just as DUS, with axed I mean axed and not paused. Anyone with more insight?
If this returns I would have expected a return in early 2023 and not with the Winter season.


Someone will probably know, but my guess is this is just the base schedule that hasn't been adjusted - or was it not for sale in November and it was returned?
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:19 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.

There's no shortage of non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Why would I want to connect? Even DL has non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Granted, it's more problematic if I want to visit a secondary city in California but SLC is too far West from the East coast. If I have to connect I'd rather split the trip with shorter segments and I'll prefer DEN, ORD, DTW, MSP, ahead of SLC.
 
87GROUNDED
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:09 am

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:51 pm

I've stopped using SLC for any connections into the PNW or intermountain west. The walk from B to A is terrible and concourses are crowded. Good luck finding a table at a restaurant in the evening hours.

I'm, unfortunately, running all of my connections through SEA now if I'm flying on DL. My preference is still DEN on UA, and I'll connect through SFO for convenience or schedule requirements if I need to be on UA.

But I'll avoid SLC from now on. It's terrible.
 
TUSDawg23
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:56 pm

flyPIT wrote:
SLC is in an excellent geographic location for a hub; the mere fact that in 2019 it served almost 27 million people for an MSA population of only 1.3 million proves this. In fact SLC probably has the highest number of passengers per MSA population in the US. Furthermore, Salt lake City's isolation from a large number of other population centers makes it more dependable on air service.... further bolstering the hub.

So it's not convenient to use SLC when traveling from CLT to TUS. Who cares, all hubs can't be all things to all people. As far as longer routes that are unserved, often this has more to do with the airline's network than the geography of a certain hub. Why offer BDL-SLC and fly past DTW and MSP? But if DL didn't have a hub in DTW and MSP then BDL-SLC all of a sudden makes sense.


You are not factoring in the MSA's of nearby Provo and Logan which combined with SLC would add up to over 2 million in the greater metro which puts it more on par with places like BNA, LAS, Austin, etc. It is still impressive how many pax were served from SLC, but I think the SLC catchment area is a bit bigger than what you've put in your example.
 
sea13
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 pm

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:55 pm

airbazar wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.

There's no shortage of non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Why would I want to connect? Even DL has non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Granted, it's more problematic if I want to visit a secondary city in California but SLC is too far West from the East coast. If I have to connect I'd rather split the trip with shorter segments and I'll prefer DEN, ORD, DTW, MSP, ahead of SLC.


I agree. SMF, SJC, FAT, SFO, OAK, PSP, SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, LGB, are all covered by DL to SLC.

The smaller California markets (SBA, MRY, etc.) is not in the interest of DL, I believe.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3231
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:29 am

sea13 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.

There's no shortage of non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Why would I want to connect? Even DL has non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Granted, it's more problematic if I want to visit a secondary city in California but SLC is too far West from the East coast. If I have to connect I'd rather split the trip with shorter segments and I'll prefer DEN, ORD, DTW, MSP, ahead of SLC.


I agree. SMF, SJC, FAT, SFO, OAK, PSP, SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, LGB, are all covered by DL to SLC.

The smaller California markets (SBA, MRY, etc.) is not in the interest of DL, I believe.


SBA, MRY, and every other Regional market very much is the interest of DL. DL makes its money flying to smaller cities that aren't large metropolises - the money isn't made flying pax SLC-ATL, the money is made flying pax to/from smaller cities.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:37 am

alasizon wrote:
sea13 wrote:
airbazar wrote:

There's no shortage of non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Why would I want to connect? Even DL has non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Granted, it's more problematic if I want to visit a secondary city in California but SLC is too far West from the East coast. If I have to connect I'd rather split the trip with shorter segments and I'll prefer DEN, ORD, DTW, MSP, ahead of SLC.


I agree. SMF, SJC, FAT, SFO, OAK, PSP, SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, LGB, are all covered by DL to SLC.

The smaller California markets (SBA, MRY, etc.) is not in the interest of DL, I believe.


SBA, MRY, and every other Regional market very much is the interest of DL. DL makes its money flying to smaller cities that aren't large metropolises - the money isn't made flying pax SLC-ATL, the money is made flying pax to/from smaller cities.


If that were true, the industry wouldn't be pulling out of small markets....
 
alasizon
Posts: 3231
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:43 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
alasizon wrote:
sea13 wrote:

I agree. SMF, SJC, FAT, SFO, OAK, PSP, SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, LGB, are all covered by DL to SLC.

The smaller California markets (SBA, MRY, etc.) is not in the interest of DL, I believe.


SBA, MRY, and every other Regional market very much is the interest of DL. DL makes its money flying to smaller cities that aren't large metropolises - the money isn't made flying pax SLC-ATL, the money is made flying pax to/from smaller cities.


If that were true, the industry wouldn't be pulling out of small markets....


EAS is a separate monkey than regular regional service.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta’s long term SLC plans

Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:29 am

alasizon wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
alasizon wrote:

SBA, MRY, and every other Regional market very much is the interest of DL. DL makes its money flying to smaller cities that aren't large metropolises - the money isn't made flying pax SLC-ATL, the money is made flying pax to/from smaller cities.


If that were true, the industry wouldn't be pulling out of small markets....


EAS is a separate monkey than regular regional service.


It's not just EAS markets...

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