Delta Network Thread - 2022

Polot · Sat May 28, 2022 2:07 pm

bigb wrote:
N965UW wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Delta slashed and burned fleets in their entirity putting way heavier requirements on training they still have pilots on md-88 and 777 that havent been moved over yet

Nobody slashed and burned fleets more than AA (A330, 757, 767, CRJ-200, E190) yet they're not the ones looking to cut 100+ flights a day. Parking the airplanes didn't help but something bigger is going on at DL. For whatever reason it's their turn to have a meltdown and hopefully it resolves sooner rather than later.

Remove the CRJ-200 as that was a separate airline

The 757/767 was also a single pilot group. It helps a little that AA was also planning on retiring most of those planes before Covid anyways, as the groundwork for retraining those pilots was being laid and expected. Delta retiring the 777 unexpectedly was also very disruptive, as the fleet was fairly senior.

It still comes down to mostly boneheaded staffing decisions made by DL management though.

jmscsc · Sat May 28, 2022 2:17 pm

freakyrat wrote:
jetawayusa wrote:
I usually just read what everyone else has to say and not comment... but i read thru this entire thread so far and the funniest part is somehow SBN is like the most important part of Delta's entire success or demise. Aside from some football games in SBN...what else and why else is it so important in Delta's network or anyone else's network. SMH

I just gave an example of what happened there over the past year and a half and others said the same for outstations like CID etc. The converstion just got a little out of hand. The bottom line is All Airlines are trimming schedules because they do not have enough crews to operate flights to handle demand. There is also a neat DOT website that you can lookup any commercial airport and it gives market share of each carrier serving the airport, passengers enplaned, top routes out of the airport etc. It's pretty informative.

What's that website? I'd like to check it out. Thanks.

TYWoolman · Sat May 28, 2022 2:45 pm

Imagine at the same time if Delta found itself in an industry where two U.S. competitors, both having the privilege without proper oversight or any consideration whatsoever to the predicament the industry as a whole face in the aftermath of government-induced shutdown, had the ability to retain marketshare in a significant part of the country so as to mitigate labor/fleet shortages to their respective systems through a redeployment of assets. Imagine!

tistpaa727 · Sat May 28, 2022 2:53 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
panam330 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Delta had planned on the pandemic to be a protracted recovery.

Everyone did; it's not an excuse for overscheduling your resources. Certain other airlines (like AS and B6) are also doing it, and we're currently seeing the results of that now with big frequency pulldowns and route cuts. AA and UA seem to be having better luck with their staffing, it seems. Certainly not great, but better than DL has been of late.

Delta slashed and burned fleets in their entirity putting way heavier requirements on training they still have pilots on md-88 and 777 that havent been moved over yet

Didn't realize this about 88 and T7 pilots - so what you're saying is these pilots are still on staff but haven't been trained / moved to another fleet yet? Is this because DL is dragging its feet or the pilots aren't able to bid on the aircraft they want or there aren't enough type certification resources? Interesting if they have a pool of pilots that aren't being utilized.

NWDALMSPDTW · Sat May 28, 2022 3:27 pm

Another point I haven’t seen made is Delta’s overall strategy. They are focused on building out an experience that appeals to Gen Z/Millennials and have made major capital investments in the coastal hubs. With the “ways of working” changing and population shifts in tandem with the pandemic, the growth has been centered around investments made in BOS/NYC/LAX/SLC with SEA somewhat stagnant.

The Midwest will always be part of any airlines route network, but when you think about the communities being discussed, think about where the “future” long-term customer lives, not the one near retirement.

dstblj52 · Sat May 28, 2022 4:43 pm

tistpaa727 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
panam330 wrote:
Everyone did; it's not an excuse for overscheduling your resources. Certain other airlines (like AS and B6) are also doing it, and we're currently seeing the results of that now with big frequency pulldowns and route cuts. AA and UA seem to be having better luck with their staffing, it seems. Certainly not great, but better than DL has been of late.

Delta slashed and burned fleets in their entirity putting way heavier requirements on training they still have pilots on md-88 and 777 that havent been moved over yet

Didn't realize this about 88 and T7 pilots - so what you're saying is these pilots are still on staff but haven't been trained / moved to another fleet yet? Is this because DL is dragging its feet or the pilots aren't able to bid on the aircraft they want or there aren't enough type certification resources? Interesting if they have a pool of pilots that aren't being utilized.

They have been reassigned to a new fleet during a bid but due to how Delta handled this swing their is a pretty major back long on training at Delta especially for the mainstay 320 and 737 fleets

freakyrat · Sun May 29, 2022 1:45 am

jmscsc wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
jetawayusa wrote:
I usually just read what everyone else has to say and not comment... but i read thru this entire thread so far and the funniest part is somehow SBN is like the most important part of Delta's entire success or demise. Aside from some football games in SBN...what else and why else is it so important in Delta's network or anyone else's network. SMH

I just gave an example of what happened there over the past year and a half and others said the same for outstations like CID etc. The converstion just got a little out of hand. The bottom line is All Airlines are trimming schedules because they do not have enough crews to operate flights to handle demand. There is also a neat DOT website that you can lookup any commercial airport and it gives market share of each carrier serving the airport, passengers enplaned, top routes out of the airport etc. It's pretty informative.

What's that website? I'd like to check it out. Thanks.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?20=E

It starts out alphabetically with ATL. You can click on the link that says select airport by state and then go to the state and pick the airport you want.

AVLAirlineFreq · Sun May 29, 2022 2:01 am

Problems for DL today extend to airport staffing. Flew out of ATL this morning and at one point there were only two agents checking in passengers at the Sky Priority desks. Waited an hour just to drop bags and get boarding passes. (Was not carrying on and needed assistance with a boarding pass issue.)

freakyrat · Sun May 29, 2022 2:18 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Problems for DL today extend to airport staffing. Flew out of ATL this morning and at one point there were only two agents checking in passengers at the Sky Priority desks. Waited an hour just to drop bags and get boarding passes. (Was not carrying on and needed assistance with a boarding pass issue.)

And at some of the Delta Connection cities they work for Unifii formerly DGS and have to service multiple carriers so they get stretched thin at times.

nwadeicer · Sun May 29, 2022 3:24 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Problems for DL today extend to airport staffing. Flew out of ATL this morning and at one point there were only two agents checking in passengers at the Sky Priority desks. Waited an hour just to drop bags and get boarding passes. (Was not carrying on and needed assistance with a boarding pass issue.)

As has been stated a few times in the past. Delta did not expect the amount of staff to take the early out package, severely impacted their staffing levels in all locations both above wing, below and maintenance. They are begging and pleading with staff to stay over, offering double time etc to cover flights. The people they are hiring just aren't staying around. Per a friend/coworker in training, Delta hired 10 people a few weeks ago at one of their major hubs. Of the ten that started the first day, 3 of them reported late. By the fourth day, of those ten, only 2 were left. The main reasoning given was the amount of pay for the work being done. That coupled with most of the new hires have other jobs that they realized would interfere. Delta is just not going to be able to get reliable people for 15.00 an hour. New employees whose main focus was on the Free Flights! quickly realize they're not going to get on that flight to Europe lickety split with 2022 seniority.

socalflyer00 · Sun May 29, 2022 6:00 am

I am a DL Diamond and have flown frequently over the last two years even during COVID. I will be the first to admit that things are not "great" at Delta. But having flown AA and UA this year, the grass is not greener over there. I disagree with the notion that UA or AA is somehow handling staffing issues better. Both have a really aggressive international summer schedule and I wish them the best but think it could be a catastrophe.

There is a lot of inconsistency right now, all of the airlines are struggling in different sectors at different times. Heck if you think DL is melting down you clearly haven't been on the west coast dealing with AS. Their pilots aren't afraid to strike and I think the FAs could be next. UA and AA are having to adjust routes because of 787 delays. UA still doesn't have first class meals. WN It's all a mess right now.

I have been frustrated and angry and it doesn't help. It might just be that air travel in the US will never truly be the same.

F9Animal · Sun May 29, 2022 6:21 am

It's easy to look back and say someone made a poor decision regarding staffing. I personally didn't see the industry coming back so quickly, and most would say the same.

Airlines have learned to recover from war, high fuel prices, and things like 9/11. But!! This industry never faced a pandemic that would shut down 3/4 of the world. I couldn't imagine the agony for those making the decisions to offer retirement packages. I mean, it's really a gamble when you look at how things were.

I was lucky to be flying alot during Covid, and I flew on planes that were 90% empty. I remember boarding a flight once with only 7 passengers on it! I joked around with the flight crew that a bunch of psychics cancelled at the last minute! If you had asked me how I saw the industry recovering in the near future when I was in that flight.... I would have told you it would take many years.

Fast forward to the last year, and I can confirm how rapidly people returned to fly. It's actually crazy how rapid the pace changed. Will lessons be learned from the next big pandemic? Probably. But we are charting into new territory that these airlines have never been in.

Delta will recover from this, and I am confident it will be just fine once they find the right altitude to smooth flight. I commend the workers in this industry who are working so hard to make it work.

umichman · Sun May 29, 2022 6:37 am

It seems odd that these DL staffing issues only seem to happen around weekends. It looks to mainly be a mainline pilot issue (and not general staffing) as regional flights look to largely be unaffected. I hear talk about pilot attrition at the regionals, and yet they don't seem to be cancelling many flights. While there were a number of regional cancellations on Friday, they look to have been weather related as they were centered in the Northeast. Previous weekends haven't seen many regional flights cancelled while the vast bulk of cancellations were mainline.

jeffrey0032j · Sun May 29, 2022 7:32 am

socalflyer00 wrote:
UA and AA are having to adjust routes because of 787 delays. UA still doesn't have first class meals. WN It's all a mess right now.

UA now has some sort of advantage with all their PW 777s coming back online, thats a potential massive increase in capacity.

bevan7 · Sun May 29, 2022 9:26 am

admanager wrote:
Finally acknowledging that they are overextended. Crew availability on the 25th of May messed up our flight to Europe. Regardless of the cabin you buy on Delta, when your ticket is transferred to AF it only qualifies for Main cabin. Ending up with one unhappy wife.
Hopefully this will help DL maintain a reliable schedule.

So if you bought business they will put you in economy? If so do you get a refund?

trueblew · Sun May 29, 2022 1:21 pm

So much for "Cancelling Cancellations." It's amazing to see how far Delta have fallen, to the point they are opening the door to United being the most premium airline in the USA.

Aliqiout · Sun May 29, 2022 1:33 pm

bevan7 wrote:
admanager wrote:
Finally acknowledging that they are overextended. Crew availability on the 25th of May messed up our flight to Europe. Regardless of the cabin you buy on Delta, when your ticket is transferred to AF it only qualifies for Main cabin. Ending up with one unhappy wife.
Hopefully this will help DL maintain a reliable schedule.

So if you bought business they will put you in economy? If so do you get a refund?

No, they will put you in the equivalent class of service, there was either miscommunication, a porely trained emoloyee,, or there just were no buisisness seats available.

joelliot · Sun May 29, 2022 2:38 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
socalflyer00 wrote:
UA and AA are having to adjust routes because of 787 delays. UA still doesn't have first class meals. WN It's all a mess right now.

UA now has some sort of advantage with all their PW 777s coming back online, thats a potential massive increase in capacity.

...also, I received meals on two first class domostic flights on United back at Easter.

sUAisDL · Sun May 29, 2022 2:46 pm

socalflyer00 wrote:
…UA still doesn't have first class meals…

What are you talking about? They have had meals on every First class flight I’ve been in the last year domestic and international! In fact, I think they were the first carrier to bring them back June 1st 2021.

Even though I much prefer Delta, it’s best not to make up things to sensationalize.

pezzy669 · Sun May 29, 2022 4:07 pm

socalflyer00 wrote:
I am a DL Diamond and have flown frequently over the last two years even during COVID. I will be the first to admit that things are not "great" at Delta.

^This - as ATL hub captive DL flyer I have rarely had issues over ~150 flights over the past 10 years but the past couple months of flying have shown the operation is not going well.

I have not had anything major go wrong like some folks. Only issue this year was a mechanical delay on an Endeavor CR2 requiring me be very persistent with DL about my connecting flight after their system automatically rebooked me on the very last MSP-ATL flight of the day (there were 2 of the other 4 MSP-ATL flights between my original and last of the day with F seats available). DLH agent kept parroting that I was already rebooked and she could not change it, DL chat being useless because my DLH boarding pass had been scanned (we were boarded then let off the plane to wait for repairs). I had to wait a very long 2 hours to get to Minneapolis to try to secure a seat on something other than the last flight of the day which a help agent in MSP was able to do in about 3 minutes. Due to lack of help before we left Duluth I went as far as paying for a refundable F seat on one of the other MSP-ATL departures they "couldn't" put me on and was planning on fighting it out with them on the backside. Sorry not sorry I phantom booked a backup F seat but that was due to Duluth DL ground and DL chat staff being unwilling or unable to help and I wanted to get home before midnight - help agent in MSP got me on that same flight on my original ticket so I cancelled my dupe standing in front of her.

I scrolled back in all the chats I have had with DL for assistance and they are unable to help about 80% of the time so if you think that is shortcut around the long hold times to call DL - don't waste your time. Maybe try the chat while you wait for your callback from Delta in 1-2 hours.

LCDFlight · Sun May 29, 2022 4:17 pm

777Mech wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
There is nothing proactive about Delta’s operation of late.

This is news to absolutely no one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. It's a mess

Just putting this out there, but DL is probably trying to schedule based on 2019 productivity and absenteeism levels. And attrition levels, potentially. Workers aren’t into that. Times have changed, a little bit. If Delta wants to equal 2019 operations, it will take more hiring and higher pay.

SyracuseAvGeek · Sun May 29, 2022 5:16 pm

freakyrat wrote:
AT SBN they are moving the Delta Connection flights to ATL back to Skywest from Endeavor so there goes the CRJ900's they were going to operate this summer on the route.

Just north, AZO, MBS and LAN are all going from three daily to just two daily flights on a CRJ200. And it lasts from July 5 until the end of August. Although it appears we are still sticking with Endeavor.

rbavfan · Sun May 29, 2022 6:19 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
Well my hometown of CID is losing one flight to DTW. Here will be 1x. A320 to ATL, 1x CRJ to DTW and 2x CRJ to MSP. Way down from 10 flights last summer. Would be nice to see flights eliminated at least get upgraded to make up for lost seat capacity.

MLI also goes from 2x to 1x daily MSP.

Remember though these 100 daily are Delta Mainline flights. CRJ & Ejet flights are regional and those are a different schedualing & mess these days.

SLCaviation · Sun May 29, 2022 7:05 pm

SLC-LHR is year round now. Goes to a 764 for the winter and back to the 332 for the summer.

hockyluv21 · Sun May 29, 2022 9:24 pm

kavok wrote:
Hypothetically, let’s say DL had the XLR. Which US airport would they fly out of?
-JFK is slot constrained, and of the slots DL does have, they can make more money using the larger gauge frames to other destinations.
-BOS? Connecting in BOS from domestic to international is an awful experience. It also isn’t great going Int’l to Domestic either if you have a check bag that is heavy to move. DL is better off focusing on BOS O&D and hoping word doesn’t get out how awful the connection experience is there.
-DTW? Not a chance. Any DTW flight to secondary Europe is cannibalizing ATL, JFK, and BOS operations.
-ATL? Maybe… but ATL to Europe is a very long time to be cooped up in a narrowbody, even if the flight could make it.

Personally, I would either go for BOS and hope that enough changes are made to their international terminal to make domestic connections more streamlined, or go ATL and hope that convenience and ease trumps narrow-body long-haul for the vast majority of passengers. Honestly, I think ATL's the smarter move. That hub is just so massive that when you combine the XLR range, it opens up so many possibilities for one-stop travel to Europe.

rta · Sun May 29, 2022 9:27 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
jmscsc wrote:

I just flew in and out of SBN last week and the ATL - SBN leg was downgraded from a CRJ900 to the horrible CRJ200. A stroke of luck had it upgraded to the CRJ700 the day before! I'm moving back to SBN next month and not looking forward to the Skywest service.

According to statistics it appesrs that the locals are preferring CLT over ATL for making connections going South which means flying on PSA CRJ700's and mostly 900's

Same thing going on here at CID American has become my carrier of choice. Plus their duopoly of southern hubs is more attractive than one Airbus to Atlanta. Between DFW and CLT is 5 flights alone all on CR9s. That’s more than DLs entire schedule here and then on top of it we have 2 CR7s/1 ERJ to ORD and 1 CR9 to PHX. Even UA has better planes and schedules here with 1 320/1 E75 2 CRJ to ORD and 1 319/1 E75/1 CRJ to DEN. I scratch my head at what DL is doing here at CID it used to be a strong #2 in the market it’s now a distant 4th behind AA/G4/UA. Poor to non existent schedule and other than the A320 to ATL the dreaded CRJs to MSP/DTW.

The DL CID situation is fairly recent; the schedule wasn't that bad earlier this year. I think it was 2x CID/ATL using a 717 and CRJ9, in addition to the CRJ2 flights to MSP and DTW. But yeah, I am not sure what they are doing.

AA is definitely the strongest right now, but I wish they'd put at least a E170/175 (if not mainline) on one of DFW or CLT frequencies. Despite Delta's lacking schedule, the A319 is much nicer.

fly4ever78 · Sun May 29, 2022 11:18 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Lots of guessing as to what is going on here. I'll help.

TL:DR: too ambitious of a schedule with inadequate staffing buffers.

Expanded answer:
Delta doesn't have enough pilot staffing to operate the schedule with the reliability it's known for. It's not because pilots are out sick at abnormal levels, or any kind of work action. It's not that they aren't hiring enough (record pilot hiring). They just don't have enough pilots active and in position among the varied fleets. It is taking years to unwind the poor decisions of 2020 that impacted pilot qualification and training capacity. How could this not have been foreseen? It was by most pilots, especially those who do training. But there are people that sit behind a desk and look at data and numbers and think they can squeeze more efficiency out of the operation, save costs. People with experience and knowledge of flight operations who know the complexity of pilot training and staffing aren't calling the shots.

In 2020, when demand was near zero and cash was bleeding, excess pilot payroll needed to be managed. Nobody knew if demand would return in the summer, fall, a year, years? If you furlough thousands of pilots and then find yourself needing them back in earnst, it takes possibly several years to unwind. Most every US airline knew this, and offered payed leaves of absence at rates below normal salaries to save cash, but kept pilots in place and qualified on their equipment. They offered early retirement incentives. Delta only offered unpaid leaves (next to zero pilots took this). Then they announced a major displacement bid that affected most DL pilots, causing thousands to unvoluntarily move into new positions requiring additional training, and others to be placed into an unassigned category awaiting their furlough. After they did this, they finally offered early retirements, 2000 pilots accept . If they had offered retirements first, it would have generated thousands less dominos to cascade down from their displacement bid, and saved thousands of redundant training events. In 4Q 2020, the vaccine was on its way, all signs pointed to recovery, and CARES 1 had long passed with a CARES 2 in the works. The cares money was supposed to keep workers in place, an investment by taxpayers to sustain the airline workforce so that airlines could aid in the recovery. But Delta still marched towards furloughing 2k of its 14k pilots. By the holidays of 2020, CARES 2 passes barring furloughs for another 6/mos, but Delta still unqualifies 2500 pilots as if they were furloughs. Fast forward literally 1 month to 1Q 2021, now Delta wants ALL those pilots back ASAP! Many hundreds unable to return for months to a year due taking other jobs/military leaves etc. New pilot bids open up, and the thousands displaced rebid the positions they just got booted from (net result: double redudant wasteful training). The sims are all tied up for most of 2021. Among the original displaced are SIM instructors and check airman...further crippling the training capability. 1Q20 pilot count was 14.7k, now its 11.5k, due to the 2k early retirements and 500 additional retirements in 2021, with 500 forecasted annually through 2030. Hiring new pilots needs to happen now or they'll struggle to get back to 2019 size. But that can't begin until the unassigned pilots on payroll are active again. Hiring delayed, starts slowly in 3Q 2021, finally peaking to desired levels by 1Q 2022 after enough redudant displacement training backlog frees up. Cant hire fast enough. Fever pitch hiring raids all the regional pilot rosters who can't recurit at same pace as majors. Fast forward to today, the airline is still unwinding the mess it created by the mismanagement of pilot resources in 2020. From 4Q20 to today, pilots have been working net record overtime, even with half the headcount. To account for lack of crews, schedulers have been building longer duty periods, more flying. On paper it works out. But with less buffers for IROPs, any hiccup can cause a crew to timeout, get out of place. And since staffing is so low already, mass cancels vs pre-covid. Working pilots at redline while on duty, day after day, expecting overtime... record levels of fatigue callouts. Thats what the pilot we're picketing about. Staffing will probably sort itself out to normal levels in 2023 or 2024 at this rate of hiring at training throughput. Cancels can be avoided today by building trips for crews that don't push right to FAR limits, and being realistic with the amount of flying they schedule for sale based on staffing.

This is one of the best summaries of the issues to date!! All is totally accurate!

Polot · Sun May 29, 2022 11:46 pm

Realistically the XLR is only making it to Western Europe from ATL. Prior to Covid DL was already flying to most of the major European markets. I’m not sure there is much appetite to hit smaller niche European markets from Atlanta when they are better served from NYC (shorter cheaper-to-operate flight, connection opportunities albeit fewer, and larger local market). ATL has more unique connections that JFK, but connections on those thinner TATL flights skew heavily towards large US cities that often have NYC flights anyways (on DL and competitors). Your small southeastern city doesn’t generate a ton of traffic to smaller European destinations.

DLHAM · Mon May 30, 2022 1:05 am

Polot wrote:
Realistically the XLR is only making it to Western Europe from ATL. Prior to Covid DL was already flying to most of the major European markets. I’m not sure there is much appetite to hit smaller niche European markets from Atlanta when they are better served from NYC (shorter cheaper-to-operate flight, connection opportunities albeit fewer, and larger local market). ATL has more unique connections that JFK, but connections on those thinner TATL flights skew heavily towards large US cities that often have NYC flights anyways (on DL and competitors). Your small southeastern city doesn’t generate a ton of traffic to smaller European destinations.

Your right about the range from ATL -- Stockholm, Copenhagen, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Geneva, Marseille would be just within realistic winter-westbound transatlantic range, but cities like Helsinki, Berlin, Prague or Pisa would already be out of range, unless they have a pretty light configuration with only around 150 passengers, this would add a few hundred Kilometers.

Regarding thinner TATL/secondary Airports I can only talk about my hometown HAM. Of course NYC is a much larger market with 155 passengers per day each way in 2019 -- ATL compared to this is laughable with only 23-24. But the market has a high share of High Yield Traffic and is much less seasonal than NYC. Also ATL is located perfectly for Connections to Texas and Florida, Texas also high yielding from HAM and Florida with a high demand throughout the year, with peaks in Spring and Fall.

If I was Delta I would rather try it from ATL than JFK, not only regarding HAM. JFK is expensive to operate at AFAIK and its pretty likely to face direct competition from United or maybe JetBlue midterm which could start a price-war.
BOS is another story, might be the best Gateway for thin TATL: relatively high O&D, healthy share of Business travelers (at least from HAM) and a good Hub for Connections to all over the country.

11725Flyer · Mon May 30, 2022 1:13 am

Here's a report from FOX 9 in MSP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcFhcMsKyp4

gdavis003 · Mon May 30, 2022 2:09 am

They are clearly hard pressed for crew. Flew EWR-ATL-BHM the other week, and my EWR-ATL leg was delayed by over two hours because of a late flight attendant coming over from LGA. At 5:00 rush hour, that's bound to cause a delay to get from LGA to EWR. Felt bad for the FA, but gate staff at EWR was pathetic. Made zero announcements to say it was even delayed or say the reason. That terminal is way overcrowded. I'm guessing that was a substitute for another FA, but it seems like there are certainly crew issues.

9w748capt · Mon May 30, 2022 3:24 am

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
AT SBN they are moving the Delta Connection flights to ATL back to Skywest from Endeavor so there goes the CRJ900's they were going to operate this summer on the route.

Just north, AZO, MBS and LAN are all going from three daily to just two daily flights on a CRJ200. And it lasts from July 5 until the end of August. Although it appears we are still sticking with Endeavor.

Someone in the Michigan thread made a good point that if places like AZO/LAN/MBS are down to just 2x/day then that drastically reduces the number of convenient connecting options, which begs the question is it even worthwhile to service my hometown AZO just 2x/day when GRR is just 45 min away. I think the other legacies are also having issues with staffing regionals (AA is also down to 2x/day on ORD-AZO when normally in summers it's at least 4 daily IIRC) but DL seems to have more issues with mainline staffing than the others!

rta · Mon May 30, 2022 3:39 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Memorial weekend has all the ingredients for an operational meltdown

Well... this has aged well.

admanager · Mon May 30, 2022 10:02 am

bevan7 wrote:
admanager wrote:
Finally acknowledging that they are overextended. Crew availability on the 25th of May messed up our flight to Europe. Regardless of the cabin you buy on Delta, when your ticket is transferred to AF it only qualifies for Main cabin. Ending up with one unhappy wife.
Hopefully this will help DL maintain a reliable schedule.

So if you bought business they will put you in economy? If so do you get a refund?

Yes, bought Premium Select and rebooked on AF into Economy. I did get the fare difference as a credit into my Delta wallet.

admanager · Mon May 30, 2022 10:07 am

Aliqiout wrote:
bevan7 wrote:
admanager wrote:
Finally acknowledging that they are overextended. Crew availability on the 25th of May messed up our flight to Europe. Regardless of the cabin you buy on Delta, when your ticket is transferred to AF it only qualifies for Main cabin. Ending up with one unhappy wife.
Hopefully this will help DL maintain a reliable schedule.

So if you bought business they will put you in economy? If so do you get a refund?

No, they will put you in the equivalent class of service, there was either miscommunication, a porely trained emoloyee,, or there just were no buisisness seats available.

No miscommunication, It was Main cabin or nothing. I went to the AF lounge in JFK and bought on the spot 2 upgrades to AF Premium Economy, so I can assure you there were premium seats available.
By the way, the seats on the 359 were nice, but if the passenger in front was reclined, you were trapped.

freakyrat · Mon May 30, 2022 1:00 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
They are clearly hard pressed for crew. Flew EWR-ATL-BHM the other week, and my EWR-ATL leg was delayed by over two hours because of a late flight attendant coming over from LGA. At 5:00 rush hour, that's bound to cause a delay to get from LGA to EWR. Felt bad for the FA, but gate staff at EWR was pathetic. Made zero announcements to say it was even delayed or say the reason. That terminal is way overcrowded. I'm guessing that was a substitute for another FA, but it seems like there are certainly crew issues.

Several months ago my flight back to DFW got delayed (Airbus A321) in ATL going back to DFW while DL worked at finding a 4th FA. That FA was coming in from LGA and that flight was delayed. DL ended up finding one on reserve to come out and work the flight.

gdavis003 · Mon May 30, 2022 2:40 pm

freakyrat wrote:
gdavis003 wrote:
They are clearly hard pressed for crew. Flew EWR-ATL-BHM the other week, and my EWR-ATL leg was delayed by over two hours because of a late flight attendant coming over from LGA. At 5:00 rush hour, that's bound to cause a delay to get from LGA to EWR. Felt bad for the FA, but gate staff at EWR was pathetic. Made zero announcements to say it was even delayed or say the reason. That terminal is way overcrowded. I'm guessing that was a substitute for another FA, but it seems like there are certainly crew issues.

Several months ago my flight back to DFW got delayed (Airbus A321) in ATL going back to DFW while DL worked at finding a 4th FA. That FA was coming in from LGA and that flight was delayed. DL ended up finding one on reserve to come out and work the flight.

Pretty much the same scenario, although probably harder to get another FA off reserve and to EWR quickly than ATL. There was very little communication, if any, from the gate staff at EWR, which made the situation even more frustrating. We were finding out what was going on via word of mouth.

I’m not sure if the FA was scheduled to transit from LGA to EWR via Uber or some other means or was a last minute reserve, but expecting an FA to be on time on a transit like that, with all the delays on the road in 5:00 traffic and systemwide Delta delays, the FA is bound to be late. Delayed us over two hours

pezzy669 · Mon May 30, 2022 2:48 pm

9w748capt wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
AT SBN they are moving the Delta Connection flights to ATL back to Skywest from Endeavor so there goes the CRJ900's they were going to operate this summer on the route.

Just north, AZO, MBS and LAN are all going from three daily to just two daily flights on a CRJ200. And it lasts from July 5 until the end of August. Although it appears we are still sticking with Endeavor.

Someone in the Michigan thread made a good point that if places like AZO/LAN/MBS are down to just 2x/day then that drastically reduces the number of convenient connecting options, which begs the question is it even worthwhile to service my hometown AZO just 2x/day when GRR is just 45 min away. I think the other legacies are also having issues with staffing regionals (AA is also down to 2x/day on ORD-AZO when normally in summers it's at least 4 daily IIRC) but DL seems to have more issues with mainline staffing than the others!

I would love to get my hands on a NW timetable from right before the DL merger - my only basis is Duluth and Bemidji regional airports in Minnesota but in those two markets DL has pared back from NW days when they were king in Minnesota and seems they did the same in Michigan. Duluth used to be pretty much mainline on NW (I believe there was a NWA maintenance facility in Duluth) but it is now all regional flying with CR2's and maybe 1 CR7 per day, Bemidji used to have higher frequency but on a smaller Saab 340 - now its just 2x daily and 3x during holiday weekends. United has hung on in Duluth so I may comparison shop next time I go up there, AA has never been able to make Duluth work (I think they have tried 2 or 3 times) and their performance was always abysmal.

DL regional partners allocate the absolute crappiest CR2's to their northern Minnesota flights and charge a huge premium to fly on what is maybe a step above a city bus, I think they have probably chased off some customers that would rather drive the couple hours in comfort and pay for parking at MSP than ride on their dumpster fire CR2's.

Midwestindy · Mon May 30, 2022 3:27 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:
Number of Total Departures
Number of Departures by Aircraft
Number of Departures to Each City
List of Destinations from Each Hub
Complete List of Aircraft to Each City
Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Factoring in all the cuts over the past month it looks like DTW is now just around 300 departures (I counted 303, but could be off by a few)

For context DL had 461 departures in S19 from DTW

Ouch

https://www.airlines.org/wp-content/upl ... tes-32.pdf

flymco753 · Mon May 30, 2022 4:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
jsteeves3 wrote:
Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:
Number of Total Departures
Number of Departures by Aircraft
Number of Departures to Each City
List of Destinations from Each Hub
Complete List of Aircraft to Each City
Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Factoring in all the cuts over the past month it looks like DTW is now just around 300 departures (I counted 303, but could be off by a few)

For context DL had 461 departures in S19 from DTW

Ouch

https://www.airlines.org/wp-content/upl ... tes-32.pdf

DL can technically shutter the B & C Concourses and funnel everything through A. Granted gates will be nearly occupied at all times, but the fact that there is now technically little enough flights to run everything through one concourse is interesting.

freakyrat · Mon May 30, 2022 5:43 pm

pezzy669 wrote:
I would love to get my hands on a NW timetable from right before the DL merger - my only basis is Duluth and Bemidji regional airports in Minnesota but in those two markets DL has pared back from NW days when they were king in Minnesota and seems they did the same in Michigan. Duluth used to be pretty much mainline on NW (I believe there was a NWA maintenance facility in Duluth) but it is now all regional flying with CR2's and maybe 1 CR7 per day, Bemidji used to have higher frequency but on a smaller Saab 340 - now its just 2x daily and 3x during holiday weekends. United has hung on in Duluth so I may comparison shop next time I go up there, AA has never been able to make Duluth work (I think they have tried 2 or 3 times) and their performance was always abysmal.

DL regional partners allocate the absolute crappiest CR2's to their northern Minnesota flights and charge a huge premium to fly on what is maybe a step above a city bus, I think they have probably chased off some customers that would rather drive the couple hours in comfort and pay for parking at MSP than ride on their dumpster fire CR2's.

You can usually find timetabes at Airline Colletables Shows. The National Show is going to be held at the Rosemont Hilton (ORD) June 22-June 25.

usflyer msp · Mon May 30, 2022 6:39 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
gdavis003 wrote:
They are clearly hard pressed for crew. Flew EWR-ATL-BHM the other week, and my EWR-ATL leg was delayed by over two hours because of a late flight attendant coming over from LGA. At 5:00 rush hour, that's bound to cause a delay to get from LGA to EWR. Felt bad for the FA, but gate staff at EWR was pathetic. Made zero announcements to say it was even delayed or say the reason. That terminal is way overcrowded. I'm guessing that was a substitute for another FA, but it seems like there are certainly crew issues.

Several months ago my flight back to DFW got delayed (Airbus A321) in ATL going back to DFW while DL worked at finding a 4th FA. That FA was coming in from LGA and that flight was delayed. DL ended up finding one on reserve to come out and work the flight.

Pretty much the same scenario, although probably harder to get another FA off reserve and to EWR quickly than ATL. There was very little communication, if any, from the gate staff at EWR, which made the situation even more frustrating. We were finding out what was going on via word of mouth.

I’m not sure if the FA was scheduled to transit from LGA to EWR via Uber or some other means or was a last minute reserve, but expecting an FA to be on time on a transit like that, with all the delays on the road in 5:00 traffic and systemwide Delta delays, the FA is bound to be late. Delayed us over two hours

AA has started having the FA's fly together all day to avoid this waiting for an FA situation; US did this before the merger and it seems to have worked pretty well to avoid this type of delay.

CIDFlyer · Mon May 30, 2022 7:29 pm

rta wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

According to statistics it appesrs that the locals are preferring CLT over ATL for making connections going South which means flying on PSA CRJ700's and mostly 900's

Same thing going on here at CID American has become my carrier of choice. Plus their duopoly of southern hubs is more attractive than one Airbus to Atlanta. Between DFW and CLT is 5 flights alone all on CR9s. That’s more than DLs entire schedule here and then on top of it we have 2 CR7s/1 ERJ to ORD and 1 CR9 to PHX. Even UA has better planes and schedules here with 1 320/1 E75 2 CRJ to ORD and 1 319/1 E75/1 CRJ to DEN. I scratch my head at what DL is doing here at CID it used to be a strong #2 in the market it’s now a distant 4th behind AA/G4/UA. Poor to non existent schedule and other than the A320 to ATL the dreaded CRJs to MSP/DTW.

The DL CID situation is fairly recent; the schedule wasn't that bad earlier this year. I think it was 2x CID/ATL using a 717 and CRJ9, in addition to the CRJ2 flights to MSP and DTW. But yeah, I am not sure what they are doing.

AA is definitely the strongest right now, but I wish they'd put at least a E170/175 (if not mainline) on one of DFW or CLT frequencies. Despite Delta's lacking schedule, the A319 is much nicer.

Yeah I noticed this was just recent in the past month or so. Earlier we we were at 4x MSP and 3x DTW (summer had 4x DTW). Completely agree about AA though would love to have E75 back on the DFW route and even CLT. I’ve always thought DFW could go up to an Airbus and even CLT too. Now would be the time to take advantage of DLs situation to step up. UA will be running mainline to DEN and ORD

departedflights · Mon May 30, 2022 8:18 pm

pezzy669 wrote:
I would love to get my hands on a NW timetable from right before the DL merger...

Pezzy.... Unfortunately, I don't think such a thing exists. Northwest, like most other US airlines, stopped publishing paper timetables almost immediately after 9/11 as a cost-cutting measure.

What MAY help you, however, is this website:

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/ONTIME/Departures.aspx

It will show you departures for U.S. airports for each day going as far back as 1987.

WidebodyPTV · Mon May 30, 2022 9:54 pm

departedflights wrote:
pezzy669 wrote:
I would love to get my hands on a NW timetable from right before the DL merger...

Pezzy.... Unfortunately, I don't think such a thing exists. Northwest, like most other US airlines, stopped publishing paper timetables almost immediately after 9/11 as a cost-cutting measure.

What MAY help you, however, is this website:

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/ONTIME/Departures.aspx

It will show you departures for U.S. airports for each day going as far back as 1987.

They did publish PDFs, however

.

This site has the final timetable, as well as scans of paper timetables going back to the 1920s

http://northwestairlineshistory.org/tim ... northwest/

obelau24 · Mon May 30, 2022 9:59 pm

pezzy669 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

Just north, AZO, MBS and LAN are all going from three daily to just two daily flights on a CRJ200. And it lasts from July 5 until the end of August. Although it appears we are still sticking with Endeavor.

Someone in the Michigan thread made a good point that if places like AZO/LAN/MBS are down to just 2x/day then that drastically reduces the number of convenient connecting options, which begs the question is it even worthwhile to service my hometown AZO just 2x/day when GRR is just 45 min away. I think the other legacies are also having issues with staffing regionals (AA is also down to 2x/day on ORD-AZO when normally in summers it's at least 4 daily IIRC) but DL seems to have more issues with mainline staffing than the others!

I would love to get my hands on a NW timetable from right before the DL merger - my only basis is Duluth and Bemidji regional airports in Minnesota but in those two markets DL has pared back from NW days when they were king in Minnesota and seems they did the same in Michigan. Duluth used to be pretty much mainline on NW (I believe there was a NWA maintenance facility in Duluth) but it is now all regional flying with CR2's and maybe 1 CR7 per day, Bemidji used to have higher frequency but on a smaller Saab 340 - now its just 2x daily and 3x during holiday weekends. United has hung on in Duluth so I may comparison shop next time I go up there, AA has never been able to make Duluth work (I think they have tried 2 or 3 times) and their performance was always abysmal.

DL regional partners allocate the absolute crappiest CR2's to their northern Minnesota flights and charge a huge premium to fly on what is maybe a step above a city bus, I think they have probably chased off some customers that would rather drive the couple hours in comfort and pay for parking at MSP than ride on their dumpster fire CR2's.

I feel the same - NW’s schedule always fascinated me. I remember transiting in DTW and walking through the the concourse all the regionals and props flew out of and so fascinated with all the strange names: Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, Sault Ste Marie.

cokepopper · Mon May 30, 2022 10:31 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
They are clearly hard pressed for crew. Flew EWR-ATL-BHM the other week, and my EWR-ATL leg was delayed by over two hours because of a late flight attendant coming over from LGA. At 5:00 rush hour, that's bound to cause a delay to get from LGA to EWR. Felt bad for the FA, but gate staff at EWR was pathetic. Made zero announcements to say it was even delayed or say the reason. That terminal is way overcrowded. I'm guessing that was a substitute for another FA, but it seems like there are certainly crew issues.

A shame Delta made the decision during Covid to exclude EWR from the NYC flight attendant base. Which was part of then NYC f/a base for over 35 years.
Prior to this decision a standby F/A would have been on duty AT the airport.

DFW17L · Mon May 30, 2022 11:03 pm

Does this mean you should avoid flying starting the 20th of the month or later on DL? Assuming flight crews have maxed their hours towards the end of the month?

lat41 · Mon May 30, 2022 11:22 pm

pezzy669 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

Just north, AZO, MBS and LAN are all going from three daily to just two daily flights on a CRJ200. And it lasts from July 5 until the end of August. Although it appears we are still sticking with Endeavor.

Someone in the Michigan thread made a good point that if places like AZO/LAN/MBS are down to just 2x/day then that drastically reduces the number of convenient connecting options, which begs the question is it even worthwhile to service my hometown AZO just 2x/day when GRR is just 45 min away. I think the other legacies are also having issues with staffing regionals (AA is also down to 2x/day on ORD-AZO when normally in summers it's at least 4 daily IIRC) but DL seems to have more issues with mainline staffing than the others!

I would love to get my hands on a NW timetable from right before the DL merger - my only basis is Duluth and Bemidji regional airports in Minnesota but in those two markets DL has pared back from NW days when they were king in Minnesota and seems they did the same in Michigan. Duluth used to be pretty much mainline on NW (I believe there was a NWA maintenance facility in Duluth) but it is now all regional flying with CR2's and maybe 1 CR7 per day, Bemidji used to have higher frequency but on a smaller Saab 340 - now its just 2x daily and 3x during holiday weekends. United has hung on in Duluth so I may comparison shop next time I go up there, AA has never been able to make Duluth work (I think they have tried 2 or 3 times) and their performance was always abysmal.

DL regional partners allocate the absolute crappiest CR2's to their northern Minnesota flights and charge a huge premium to fly on what is maybe a step above a city bus, I think they have probably chased off some customers that would rather drive the couple hours in comfort and pay for parking at MSP than ride on their dumpster fire CR2's.

departedflights.com. There is also at least one other site.

kavok · Mon May 30, 2022 11:56 pm

I know LGA/JFK slots are valuable… but DL must be incurring quite the cost of domestic slot squatting.

It used to be negligible loss for an airline to waste some CRJ block hours in fulfilling what was necessary to occupy a slot at LGA/JFK. But given the scarcity of CRJ crews, that commodity has become quite precious. I can’t link the source (since it’s behind a firewall anyway), but it’s probably not surprising that of 10 or so DL routes having the worst load factors… almost all touched LGA. Lots of RJs there that could seemingly otherwise be utilized far better elsewhere.

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