Delta Network Thread - 2022

mr1006 · Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:09 pm

laca773 wrote:
Is there enough demand for DL to add LAX-ICN with a A359 or A33N? I know KE’s flights are always full. They have been utilizing 77Ws for both day & red eye flights. The 748 hasn’t been on the route for a while. At the same time OZ uses the A359 on the red eye & rotates the A359 & A380 on opposite days. I’d think they would fly the A380 on the red eye instead.
Once KE completes the full merger with OZ, would this be the time to operate their own JV flight in this market. Air Premia recently began flying in this market but am not sure how much of a dent this will put in KE/OZs share since it’s a high demand route.

I definitely think there's enough demand for DL to add LAX-ICN, considering KE and OZ used to each fly 2 A380s daily pre-COVID. Also, AFAIK KE will be using the 748 for KE 17/18 from December (the daytime flight). However, I did hear Koreans tend to generally prefer flying KE over DL, so I'm not sure if DL will decide to add LAX-ICN since KE can upgauge/add frequency

mesasurf · Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:46 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Noticed LWS and COS on the E175 out of SLC. Any other CRJ2 markets upgauged/upgauging in the next few months?

Also noticed the addition of mainline (717s) to Grand Forks and Bismarck from MSP come January, as well as the addition of MSP-VPS in April.

SGU also goes to CR9 in DEC.

Finally. Now I’m just waiting for SGU-SEA to be announced.

DLASFlyer · Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:52 pm

mesasurf wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Noticed LWS and COS on the E175 out of SLC. Any other CRJ2 markets upgauged/upgauging in the next few months?

Also noticed the addition of mainline (717s) to Grand Forks and Bismarck from MSP come January, as well as the addition of MSP-VPS in April.

SGU also goes to CR9 in DEC.

Finally. Now I’m just waiting for SGU-SEA to be announced.

Lol. That is never happening.

mesasurf · Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:53 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
mesasurf wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:

SGU also goes to CR9 in DEC.

Finally. Now I’m just waiting for SGU-SEA to be announced.

Lol. That is never happening.

I know. One can dream…

Cactusjuba · Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:26 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
mesasurf wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:

SGU also goes to CR9 in DEC.

Finally. Now I’m just waiting for SGU-SEA to be announced.

Lol. That is never happening.

I thought the same about SGU-DFW. But yeah, I don't see DL adding more gateways. Just more seats to SLC.

SLCaviation · Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:46 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
mesasurf wrote:
Finally. Now I’m just waiting for SGU-SEA to be announced.

Lol. That is never happening.

I thought the same about SGU-DFW. But yeah, I don't see DL adding more gateways. Just more seats to SLC.

Yeah definitely not a Delta route…
But AS thats a different story.

DTWLAX · Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:07 am

laca773 wrote:
I see LAX’s T2 gate 21 isn’t in use. This was the gate used for the JFK flights (21A/21B) . Are they reconfiguring the area so they can park an additional NB there?

I believe 21 is used to bus passengers to TBIT. That is why it is not used as an aircraft gate until the TBIT connector is built.

gregn21 · Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:59 am

DTWLAX wrote:
I believe 21 is used to bus passengers to TBIT. That is why it is not used as an aircraft gate until the TBIT connector is built.

The bus ops have moved to the other side of T2; I believe gate 26B is the access point.

And even when the bus stop was adjacent to gate 21, the gate itself was unaffected and operated continuously.

DLFA · Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:31 am

They are bussing ppl to TBIT from gate 24. They are in the midst of getting gate 21 up and running again hence the closure of the link to T1.

DeltaRules · Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
For context on how far DL has fallen market share wise in some non-hub markets -

American has passed DL in market share from RDU, which is/was a DL focus city:
http://www.rdu.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... h-CYTD.pdf

Pre-COVID DL had a substantial gap to AA

Maybe I'm unable to read, but your data shows AA with a slight lead YTD but DL leading in October. Given that DL was slower to return capacity in 2022 this isn't surprising. I don't assume that AA leading will continue as DL has added back a lot more capacity than it was running earlier this year. DL has lost a ton of market share in many other cities though, as has AA, who's clearly been prioritizing having more flights/capacity than its peers during the post-Covid time period.

Jeremy

Actually DL was larger for most of the pandemic

If you look YTD through December '20, December '21, March '22, & June '22 DL was larger in RDU.........AA didn't pass DL until September 2022.
https://www.rdu.com/airport-authority/statistics/

It's not just RDU either

Airport - 2019 AA size relative to DL - YTD 2022 AA size relative to DL
AUS - 130% - 225%
CMH - 111% - 136%
MEM - 110% - 136%
BDL - 124% - 133%
IND - 82% - 130%
MSY - 91% - 109%
MCI - 81% - 106%
TPA - 91% - 97%

https://www.tampaairport.com/airline-ac ... l-archives
https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/defau ... 0Stats.pdf
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1025171838
https://bradleyairport.com/wp-content/u ... -FINAL.pdf
https://flymsy.com/business/newsroom/st ... -archives/

Can't speak for the other airports, but at CMH, AA has thrown a TON of mainline back to the airport which wasn't there pre-COVID; after years of primarily being CR9s and/or E75s, CLT is mostly a 738/319/320 mix for the first time since the mid-2000s, PHL is now 2 319/1 ERJ, and DCA even has an A319 now. (The last regular LUS mainline service east of the Mississippi I can remember was a 733 in 2007 which routed PHL-CMH-DCA.)

DL, meanwhile, has downgauged ATL slightly (more 738s than 739s), dropped mainline to MSP (at least for now; the March schedule has an A320 and I wouldn't be surprised to see more with SY jumping in), and is yet to resume SLC, LAX, RDU, or any of the point-to-point weekend flying (CUN, Florida).

PSU.DTW.SCE · Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:48 pm

I feel like DL is getting caught with their pants down and getting blown out by AA in a lot of outstations these days.

jbs2886 · Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:03 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I feel like DL is getting caught with their pants down and getting blown out by AA in a lot of outstations these days.

I wouldn't say that - DL intentionally is defending a number of cities with known limited capacity. It had to make tough decisions. Its recent quarterly earnings it acknowledged the market share loss in cities (specifically to AA) and indicated it intended to combat that in 2023. Honestly, with DL's earnings results and probably strength they retained in very competitive markets, hard to say they didn't make the right call. What will be interesting going forward is if DL claws back some of that traffic, which could be good for consumers if there is some competition for market share.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:14 pm

Yes they made that decision and this is what you get. Less frequency/capacity and sub-optimal schedules to and through their core hubs, in the name of defending NYC, SEA, & building up BOS.

Where is AA able to conjure up all this capacity?

Midwestindy · Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:19 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I feel like DL is getting caught with their pants down and getting blown out by AA in a lot of outstations these days.

I wouldn't say that - DL intentionally is defending a number of cities with known limited capacity. It had to make tough decisions. Its recent quarterly earnings it acknowledged the market share loss in cities (specifically to AA) and indicated it intended to combat that in 2023. Honestly, with DL's earnings results and probably strength they retained in very competitive markets, hard to say they didn't make the right call. What will be interesting going forward is if DL claws back some of that traffic, which could be good for consumers if there is some competition for market share.

Their Q3 results are nothing to hang a hat on

Their pre-COVID margin gap has been erased.....

Midwestindy wrote:
Pre-Tax Margin (2019 Q3):
AS - 15.6% (17.4%)
UA - 9.0% (11.9%)
DL - 6.9% (15.5%)
AA - 4.9% (4.7%)

PRASM
% change vs q3 2019
AS +25.6%
AA +24.7%
UA +23.3%
DL +21%

PSU.DTW.SCE · Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:22 pm

Flying half empty RJs through LGA with cheap connections will do that.....

kavok · Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:55 pm

Pretty soon the South Park underwear gnomes will want royalties from DL for stealing their strategy.

Step 1- Maintain LGA slots at all costs.
Step 2- ???
Step 3- **Profit**

Pspuza · Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:02 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yes they made that decision and this is what you get. Less frequency/capacity and sub-optimal schedules to and through their core hubs, in the name of defending NYC, SEA, & building up BOS.

Where is AA able to conjure up all this capacity?

Northeast Alliance with JetBlue, their agreement with Alaska? Just throwing out stuff. They had 12+ flights between BOS and NYC now they have 0. Lotsa resources can be shuffled to other places. Look at their buildup of Austin too.

TW870 · Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:05 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I feel like DL is getting caught with their pants down and getting blown out by AA in a lot of outstations these days.

While it is true that Delta offers a much more expensive, much worse set of options than it used to, it is important to also note that none of the options are good at the outstations in the midwest that have seen the worst cuts. Yes, American is boosting gauge - to PHL, DCA, and especially CLT. But that is not helpful to folks who need to move within the midwest or from the midwest to the west. I would be happy to status match away from DL to another airline, but not to swap my irritating DAY-ATL-MSP commute for the equally irritating DAY-CLT-MSP commute. AA has not boosted capacity to ORD, and thus they are off the table for me. UA's ORD hub, meanwhile, offers good capacity to midwestern outstations. But a lot of the lift is on 50-seat RJs still. I am not going to status-match over to UA until I see what their network looks like after more months of RJ draw down. So my take is yes, DL has shown the deepest cuts, but all the options are bad at small outstations right now. I hope 2023 fixes some of this.

MIflyer12 · Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:44 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I feel like DL is getting caught with their pants down and getting blown out by AA in a lot of outstations these days.

DL is just way ahead of the AA/UA curve in killing small RJs. Those aircraft are expensive to operate with fuel still above $3/gallon, and rapidly rising RJ pilot wages. Fifty-seater counts 12/31/2021, per respective annual reports:

DL, 46 (plus some at-risk SkyWest CR2s)
AA, 107
UA, 208 (plus 55 more CR7s operated with 50 seats)

AA and UA don't have any magic to operate the jets any cheaper than DL, nor to get notably higher yields. UA has already announced United Next, which, at the time, said UA would drop to 10% of systemwide departures, maybe 80-100 jets by 2026.

These jets are going to exit AA and UA fleets in large part, and they'll be dropping frequencies, routes, and destinations, too. Really small markets have no future wishing for 3x daily to multiple hubs -- not by any carrier.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:15 pm

FWIW

9E / Endeavor CR2 flying is winding down quickly, they have less than 20 lines of active flying is going to disapeer pretty quickly over the next few months
MSP done at the end of December. Only CR2 flying out of MSP remaining after that is OO/Skywest EAS flying
DTW done supposedly either end of Feb of March; only CR2 flying out of DTW remaining after that is OO/Skywest EAS flying (5 markets)
ATL done supposedly in Q2, by June at the latest; no more CR2s in ATL after that
SLC will still have some OO/Skywest EAS flying and whatever at-risk stuff is left

tlecam · Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:23 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I feel like DL is getting caught with their pants down and getting blown out by AA in a lot of outstations these days.

I wouldn't say that - DL intentionally is defending a number of cities with known limited capacity. It had to make tough decisions. Its recent quarterly earnings it acknowledged the market share loss in cities (specifically to AA) and indicated it intended to combat that in 2023. Honestly, with DL's earnings results and probably strength they retained in very competitive markets, hard to say they didn't make the right call. What will be interesting going forward is if DL claws back some of that traffic, which could be good for consumers if there is some competition for market share.

They’ve been pretty transparent about the fact that it was a strategy decision. The most recent article I read was in fortune: https://apple.news/AfxiSXCg0QW60FMJKU7lGuQ

It’s a puff piece, but it provides some context for how they’re operating.

TW870 · Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:30 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
FWIW

9E / Endeavor CR2 flying is winding down quickly, they have less than 20 lines of active flying is going to disapeer pretty quickly over the next few months
MSP done at the end of December. Only CR2 flying out of MSP remaining after that is OO/Skywest EAS flying
DTW done supposedly either end of Feb of March; only CR2 flying out of DTW remaining after that is OO/Skywest EAS flying (5 markets)
ATL done supposedly in Q2, by June at the latest; no more CR2s in ATL after that
SLC will still have some OO/Skywest EAS flying and whatever at-risk stuff is left

Excellent info. This says to me that the midwestern stations should be at rock bottom by the end of the first quarter, and then start to see some build backs as the used 739s and more 321Ns come online to free up CR9 and 717 flying.

Cactusjuba · Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:39 am

Delta just cut way deeper and didn't leave a solid backup plan to recover to 100% before 2023. Because they didn't have a good backup plan, they were forced to concede share to competitors. They could pick A: coastal markets they've been fighting in for years (and risk never fully recovering), or B: reduce seat counts in interior hubs (more likely to be temporary loss of share).

The capacity will come back. Definitely frustrating to loyal flyers in those markets.

MIflyer12 · Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:21 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Delta just cut way deeper and didn't leave a solid backup plan to recover to 100% before 2023. Because they didn't have a good backup plan, they were forced to concede share to competitors. They could pick A: coastal markets they've been fighting in for years (and risk never fully recovering), or B: reduce seat counts in interior hubs (more likely to be temporary loss of share).

The capacity will come back. Definitely frustrating to loyal flyers in those markets.

DL may get ASMs back to 2019 levels but don't expect the same destinations, routes, and frequencies. Here's the title of an NYT article 11/23/22:

Dubuque? We Don’t Fly There Anymore. Airlines Say Goodbye to Regional Airports.
Small-market airports have borne the brunt of schedule cutbacks, with some losing commercial service entirely. That has travelers facing steeper fares, inconvenient routes or long drives to bigger terminals.

Of the 430 airports in the continental United States and Hawaii that offered commercial passenger service before the pandemic, 76 percent had fewer flights scheduled in 2022 than in 2019, according to the Regional Airline Association.

AA is not exempt from regional destination cuts, either.

This September, American Airlines ceased flying to Ithaca and Islip’s MacArthur Airport in New York — as well as Toledo, Ohio, and Dubuque, Iowa — bringing the total number of airports where it has canceled service to 15.

Delta has not returned to 10 of the airports it left in May of 2020, including Flint, Mich., and Lincoln, Neb.

As I posted upthread, it's RJ economics and pilots.

Domestic passenger travel demand has come roaring back, but route economics have changed and disproportionately affect regional flights, said Brett Catlin, vice president of network and alliances at Alaska Airlines. The pilot shortage that arose during the pandemic has boosted salaries, especially among regional-carrier pilots, he said, making those flights more expensive to run. Smaller planes are also less efficient. A 500-mile flight in a regional jet that holds an average of 76 passengers uses about 30 percent more fuel per passenger than the typical mainline jet, which carries an average of 159 passengers, said Mr. Catlin.

Full article: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/23/trav ... ion=Travel

PoorSailorsAir · Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:24 pm

Anyone know what's thrown Delta's ICN / A350 operations into disarray?

Over the last day or two DAL121, DAL27, DAL26 have cancelled with extra sections added, and other flights having huge delays.

And actually as I was typing I noticed on 11/26 DAL158 held NE of Japan before diverting to Haneda.. Maybe this was what started the cascade?

777Mech · Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:10 pm

PoorSailorsAir wrote:
Anyone know what's thrown Delta's ICN / A350 operations into disarray?

Over the last day or two DAL121, DAL27, DAL26 have cancelled with extra sections added, and other flights having huge delays.

And actually as I was typing I noticed on 11/26 DAL158 held NE of Japan before diverting to Haneda.. Maybe this was what started the cascade?

IIRC it was volcanic ash disrupting the ops.

The HND diversion was a maintenance issue.

MavyWavyATR · Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:02 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I eat my words regarding DTW-CHA being cut, looks like DL switched it to a CRJ-900 instead. I think the final CRJ-200 cuts from DTW will be AZO and MBS, but I think those will be shifted to MSP. Let’s not be surprised if they begin AZO/MBS-LGA though.

Yep….we should expect AZO, LAN, MBS to get moved to LGA and upgauged to CR9s based on DLs current network strategy.

Hoping they do the same with ATL-BQK when they pull the final dueces out of there; move it from ATL to LGA.

I believe ATL-BQK was supposed to get upgraded to the CRJ9 until the Covid chaos began. Haven't heard anything about it since then.

rjbesikof · Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:28 pm

I was just checking ATL-CPT and LAX-PPT, 2 new Delta routes that are launching next month. Bookings on CPT are doing well as more of the cabin is filled. As for PPT, they seem to have no trouble filling the front of the cabin but the back seems to be empty. Do you think both routes will be successes?

DiamondFlyer · Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:35 pm

MavyWavyATR wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I eat my words regarding DTW-CHA being cut, looks like DL switched it to a CRJ-900 instead. I think the final CRJ-200 cuts from DTW will be AZO and MBS, but I think those will be shifted to MSP. Let’s not be surprised if they begin AZO/MBS-LGA though.

Yep….we should expect AZO, LAN, MBS to get moved to LGA and upgauged to CR9s based on DLs current network strategy.

Hoping they do the same with ATL-BQK when they pull the final dueces out of there; move it from ATL to LGA.

I believe ATL-BQK was supposed to get upgraded to the CRJ9 until the Covid chaos began. Haven't heard anything about it since then.

CSG, VLD and BQK had all been announced in late 2019 or early 2020 to be getting an additional daily flight to be operated by a CR9. But obviously COVID killed that.

DLvsWN · Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:18 pm

[twoid][/twoid]

rjbesikof wrote:
I was just checking ATL-CPT and LAX-PPT, 2 new Delta routes that are launching next month. Bookings on CPT are doing well as more of the cabin is filled. As for PPT, they seem to have no trouble filling the front of the cabin but the back seems to be empty. Do you think both routes will be successes?

I think Delta may offer a basic economy on PPT but not CPT. Basic economy pax don’t show up on the seat map.

Granted, a sample itinerary on LAX-PPT is cheaper than ATL-CUN for the same dates in Feb. Might not be a great sign.

carljanderson · Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:04 pm

CaptainLeo wrote:
Another announcement will be coming in December.

Will there be an International announcement this month? Anyone hear any rumors, or have larger marco conditions taken some of the winds out of the sails?

AviationScorpio · Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:07 pm

I have heard some rumors, but again these are just rumors or what is sometimes known as “galley gossip”. But BOS-BCN has been mentioned a lot lately around the BOS base as well as from operations in BCN. BOS-FRA has also been mentioned a lot around BOS. MCO-CDG has been thrown around lately. There’s also the ones that were mentioned here ln Anet and other aviation websites such as MSP-DUB and AUS-LHR. Again, these could all be true or none could be true or perhaps something that will be happen but not for sometime. Only time will tell.

Boeing757100 · Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:12 pm

carljanderson wrote:
CaptainLeo wrote:
Another announcement will be coming in December.

Will there be an International announcement this month? Anyone hear any rumors, or have larger marco conditions taken some of the winds out of the sails?

I may be wrong but I’ve heard JFK-BOM/ICN are possible. Maybe perhaps a seasonal add to Europe from either JFK or ATL may also be possible.

rjbesikof · Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:31 pm

I am thinking SEA-SIN (SQ is drawing down SEA to 3x weekly), LAX-AKL (AA pulled out of LAX-AKL), SLC-ICN (a Delta-KE JV route), JFK-BOM (UA is not flying EWR-BOM right now).

ANA787 · Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:32 pm

If there are more international announcements on the horizon, I think there could be some sort of announcement at PDX. The schedules are incomplete, with a widebody A332 being on the ground for 23 hours with ICN-PDX arriving at 2:20pm and, the return flight departing at 1:10pm the next day. Seems inefficient use to have a widebody sitting at PDX for 23 hours. And currently per schedules there are no plans to rotate the frame through a domestic flight. DL could easily add a PDX-CDG flight with this aircraft 5x/week.

April 8th:
PDX-HND A332 dep 1:25pm daily, returns to PDX same aircraft 11:35am next day
PDX-ICN A332 dep 1:10pm 5x/week, returns to PDX same aircraft 2:20pm
PDX-AMS A333 dep 3:30pm daily rotates through AMS returns 11:50am next day

jbs2886 · Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:41 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
I am thinking SEA-SIN (SQ is drawing down SEA to 3x weekly), LAX-AKL (AA pulled out of LAX-AKL), SLC-ICN (a Delta-KE JV route), JFK-BOM (UA is not flying EWR-BOM right now).

If SQ can’t make SIN work great with AS connections, I don’t think DL will without SIN connections. Also DL isn’t going to launch BOM with Russia overflight issues, which is why UA isn’t flying EWR-BOM.

chepos · Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:47 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
I am thinking SEA-SIN (SQ is drawing down SEA to 3x weekly), LAX-AKL (AA pulled out of LAX-AKL), SLC-ICN (a Delta-KE JV route), JFK-BOM (UA is not flying EWR-BOM right now).

UA is not flying EWR-BOM for a specific reason, Russian airspace is closed to US carriers. Aircraft performance struggled operating the WB segment avoiding Russian airspace, DEL is further north and you still have some days US carriers have to make a pit stop in BGR to refuel on the return. BOM is not happening until Russia opens it’s airspace or they fly it via a third country (ala AC via LHR).

Antoli0794 · Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:09 pm

MSP-DUB with a 763 was rumored earlier this month

AviationScorpio · Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:17 pm

Some rumors I have heard from both in BOS and from ops in BCN is BOS-BCN. BOS-FRA is also being spread. Another one being thrown around is MCO-CDG. MSP-DUB and AUS-LHR have also been mentioned on here as well as other aviation websites. Of course, as stated about these are all rumors, or even what is known as “galley gossip”. All could be true, none could be true or perhaps they’re all on the horizon a while from now. Only time will tell.

AdEd · Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:27 pm

AUS-LHR was also rumored, taking over VS slots

C777ER · Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:29 pm

Wasn’t Delta supposed to make another big announcement about routes? Anyone know or heard anything??

jbs2886 · Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:36 pm

C777ER wrote:
Wasn’t Delta supposed to make another big announcement about routes? Anyone know or heard anything??

That's literally asked 8 posts above you today.

rjbesikof · Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:32 pm

What about LAX-MEL/AKL? There's barely any SkyTeam connectivity in AU/NZ

Boeing757100 · Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:16 am

rjbesikof wrote:
What about LAX-MEL/AKL? There's barely any SkyTeam connectivity in AU/NZ

I think that DL's relationship with Rex needs to mature a bit before they expand beyond LAX-SYD but I may be wrong.

Boeing757100 · Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:23 am

chepos wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
I am thinking SEA-SIN (SQ is drawing down SEA to 3x weekly), LAX-AKL (AA pulled out of LAX-AKL), SLC-ICN (a Delta-KE JV route), JFK-BOM (UA is not flying EWR-BOM right now).

UA is not flying EWR-BOM for a specific reason, Russian airspace is closed to US carriers. Aircraft performance struggled operating the WB segment avoiding Russian airspace, DEL is further north and you still have some days US carriers have to make a pit stop in BGR to refuel on the return. BOM is not happening until Russia opens it’s airspace or they fly it via a third country (ala AC via LHR).

I think upthread somewhere, someone said that the JFK crew base was told to "look out for" ICN and BOM for "2024 or later." Don't remember exactly, but either way, I don't think there's a way they can evade Russia, Iran, AND Afghanistan with a standard A359 to make JFK-BOM work.

jbs2886 · Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:25 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
What about LAX-MEL/AKL? There's barely any SkyTeam connectivity in AU/NZ

I think that DL's relationship with Rex needs to mature a bit before they expand beyond LAX-SYD but I may be wrong.

Why? AKL has nothing to do with Rex. UA also had additional routes in Australia prior to Virgin Australia partnership. DL is already expanding capacity on LAX-SYD.

jplatts · Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:34 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
chepos wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
I am thinking SEA-SIN (SQ is drawing down SEA to 3x weekly), LAX-AKL (AA pulled out of LAX-AKL), SLC-ICN (a Delta-KE JV route), JFK-BOM (UA is not flying EWR-BOM right now).

UA is not flying EWR-BOM for a specific reason, Russian airspace is closed to US carriers. Aircraft performance struggled operating the WB segment avoiding Russian airspace, DEL is further north and you still have some days US carriers have to make a pit stop in BGR to refuel on the return. BOM is not happening until Russia opens it’s airspace or they fly it via a third country (ala AC via LHR).

I think upthread somewhere, someone said that the JFK crew base was told to "look out for" ICN and BOM for "2024 or later." Don't remember exactly, but either way, I don't think there's a way they can evade Russia, Iran, AND Afghanistan with a standard A359 to make JFK-BOM work.

JFK-BOM is likely within the range of DL's A359 planes as the distance of JFK-BOM via a longer route that avoids Russian airspace is approximately 8,000 miles, whereas the distance of ATL-CPT, which is currently served nonstop by DL on A359's, is slightly longer at 8,130 miles.

Boeing757100 · Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:35 am

jplatts wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
chepos wrote:

UA is not flying EWR-BOM for a specific reason, Russian airspace is closed to US carriers. Aircraft performance struggled operating the WB segment avoiding Russian airspace, DEL is further north and you still have some days US carriers have to make a pit stop in BGR to refuel on the return. BOM is not happening until Russia opens it’s airspace or they fly it via a third country (ala AC via LHR).

I think upthread somewhere, someone said that the JFK crew base was told to "look out for" ICN and BOM for "2024 or later." Don't remember exactly, but either way, I don't think there's a way they can evade Russia, Iran, AND Afghanistan with a standard A359 to make JFK-BOM work.

JFK-BOM is likely within the range of DL's A359 planes as the distance of JFK-BOM via a longer route that avoids Russian airspace is approximately 8,000 miles, whereas the distance of ATL-CPT, which is currently served nonstop by DL on A359's, is slightly longer at 8,130 miles.

Just curious, what hypothetical route for JFK-BOM avoids Russia and is 8000mi? I toyed around with great circle mapper and a lot of routings are above 8000 mi. Of course, this doesn't take into account cargo loads, headwinds/tailwinds, etc.

1. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=jfk-fco-amm-mct-bom
2. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=jfk-ist-gyd-asb-dyu-bom
3. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=jfk-tlv-doh-bom
4. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=jfk-tun-ruh-bom

jplatts · Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:49 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
Just curious, what hypothetical route for JFK-BOM avoids Russia and is 8000mi? I toyed around with great circle mapper and a lot of routings are above 8000 mi. Of course, this doesn't take into account cargo loads, headwinds/tailwinds, etc.

I actually was computing the great circle distance of JFK-IST-BOM route according to http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=JFK-IST-BOM, and the JFK-IST-BOM route does not overfly Russia or Ukraine.

Boeing757100 · Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:51 am

jplatts wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Just curious, what hypothetical route for JFK-BOM avoids Russia and is 8000mi? I toyed around with great circle mapper and a lot of routings are above 8000 mi. Of course, this doesn't take into account cargo loads, headwinds/tailwinds, etc.

I actually was computing the great circle distance of JFK-IST-BOM route according to http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=JFK-IST-BOM, and the JFK-IST-BOM route does not overfly Russia or Ukraine.

But it overflies the entirety of Iran, which i don't think a US carrier can fly over.
https://safeairspace.net/iran/#:~:text= ... e%20region.

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