Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
chonetsao wrote:I wonder if DL is seeing a big weakness in Asia demand this winter and is utilising its aircraft on Australia instead.
DL is now the de facto challenger on US-AU routes following AA+QF and UA+VA+NZ. It has to maintain or increase market share to remain competitive. Maybe it is doing the 10 weekly to stop AA resuming the LAX-SYD route knowing there would be a bloodbath in fares ahead.
tjerome wrote:DL will start flying PVD-MSP 5x weekly beginning June 6th and upgrading to daily on July 7th on an A320. That will be year round, they did add it seasonally last summer but was last served in 2014. Also, looks like CR9 service to LGA started out of PVD earlier this year and DTW is seeing 717s. Interesting adds for PVD, I'd guess it's a part of the growing market share in BOS since for some of metro Boston, PVD would be closer (and certainly cost less) than going to BOS.
https://www.pvdairport.com/corporate/ne ... -laguardia
https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... treal.html
LAX772LR wrote:Having dozens of TPAC-capable aircraft is a situation DL hasn't been in since... well, ever.
So it's no surprise to see them expanding in ways such as this.
MIflyer12 wrote:LAX772LR wrote:Having dozens of TPAC-capable aircraft is a situation DL hasn't been in since... well, ever.
So it's no surprise to see them expanding in ways such as this.
Eight 777 + ten 77L (the last delivered by 3/2010) + sixteen 744 until DL started retiring the 744 in late 2014.
One can argue that route fragmentation (n/s flights to China, primarily) was rapidly making the 744s uneconomic (see CO EWR-HKG, 2001), but DL didn't so much build on the NW TPAC network as dismantle it. It was recognized as significantly underperforming in yield vs. competition.
sea13 wrote:Curious as to what Delta will do once the next phase of construction at SLC is done which will give 20+ more gates to DL. What are are peoples thoughts of what expansion could look like at SLC. Nonstop to ICN? More flights on the A220 to places such as GRR, TYS, RIC, etc.?
ContinentalEWR wrote:DL really didn't invest in the TPAC network post merger but had enough planes to run it and grow it, just not profitably. So, the argument that the abundance of A350s now marks a turning point is irrelevant.
sea13 wrote:amcnd wrote:Hope they get rid of the hard stands. Thats about 13 gates….
Once the concourse A east expansion is done, all the DL/OO flights will move there from the hard stands.
MIflyer12 wrote:sea13 wrote:amcnd wrote:Hope they get rid of the hard stands. Thats about 13 gates….
Once the concourse A east expansion is done, all the DL/OO flights will move there from the hard stands.
What is DL's net gain of gates when Phase II is complete vs. gate count + hard stands in 2019?
airbazar wrote:It works out well for passengers originating in the West coast who want to visit the mountain zone but those are states with declining population and fleeing businesses.
sea13 wrote:Curious as to what Delta will do once the next phase of construction at SLC is done which will give 20+ more gates to DL. What are are peoples thoughts of what expansion could look like at SLC. Nonstop to ICN? More flights on the A220 to places such as GRR, TYS, RIC, etc.?
phxa340 wrote:I avoid SLC like the plague. The airport designers and their defense of that insanely long walk to the new terminal is absurd. I know this thread is aimed at origination but I would never do a tight connection in SLC now. Also the next gen TSA area is also a joke with backups due almost entirely to the new technology (which IMO has made it so much worse).
USAirALB wrote:Unfortunately, the SLC hub essentially has one big factor going against it: geography.
It's situated too far to the Northwest for most meaningful East/West Coast connections, and is really only useful for connections between the East and the Northwest (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah), and even then, DTW and MSP can cover almost every relevant destination nonstop, with the exception of some smaller OO markets. It's also in a poor location geographically for connections to/from the Southwest from the East Coast.
Take for example a traveler going from Charlotte to Tucson, which currently lacks a nonstop. If you compare Great Circle Routes for CLT to TUS via SLC, PHX, MSP, DFW, ORD, and IAH, CLT-TUS via SLC is the longest route pair...even CLT-TUS via MSP and CLT-TUS via ORD are shorter.
This is evident in the lack of SLC service from markets the likes of FLG, ELP, SBA, Colorado Ski Markets, BFL, MRY, SBP, etc. For connections to those markets, DEN (and to some extent PHX) is a much superior hub, geographically speaking. To me, the lack of service on SLC-ELP is the best example of this.
DL service to the East Coast, for example, is limited to DL hubs/strongholds, Florida, and major metro areas. IIRC, they tried smaller East Coast markets (BDL comes to mind) and it quickly failed. The only individual airports on the East Coast that are not Delta hubs or in Florida that have been able to support more than a single frequency to SLC on DL are PHL, EWR, and CLT. Compare that to the likes of UA at DEN, which is able to support a twice daily frequency to a small market on the East Coast, like RIC.
jbs2886 wrote:I don't believe so. I thought we would see an additional Australian city before more than daily LAX-SYD, but glad to see an increase nonetheless.
I will add this is funny in that so many people were convinced DL would drop LAX-SYD when the Virgin Australia deal ended.
ncflyer wrote:I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.
flyPIT wrote:if DL didn't have a hub in DTW and MSP then BDL-SLC all of a sudden makes sense.
DLASFlyer wrote:SLC is such a curious case study. Western market with explosive population growth. Large but crumbling at-risk OO operation branded as Delta. Some very successful markets and many failed experiments. Doubling from 46 gates to 92 in the next 5 years. Top tourism destination. Great geography for connections. Business friendly.
I don't think anyone knows what will happen even if they think they do.
USAirALB wrote:Unfortunately, the SLC hub essentially has one big factor going against it: geography.
It's situated too far to the Northwest for most meaningful East/West Coast connections, and is really only useful for connections between the East and the Northwest (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah), and even then, DTW and MSP can cover almost every relevant destination nonstop, with the exception of some smaller OO markets. It's also in a poor location geographically for connections to/from the Southwest from the East Coast.
Take for example a traveler going from Charlotte to Tucson, which currently lacks a nonstop. If you compare Great Circle Routes for CLT to TUS via SLC, PHX, MSP, DFW, ORD, and IAH, CLT-TUS via SLC is the longest route pair...even CLT-TUS via MSP and CLT-TUS via ORD are shorter.
airbazar wrote:SLC suffers from it's geography, IMO. It's too far West. It works out well for passengers originating in the West coast who want to visit the mountain zone but those are states with declining population and fleeing businesses..
LCDFlight wrote:I can’t see any end to the region’s growth.
DLASFlyer wrote:airbazar wrote:SLC suffers from it's geography, IMO. It's too far West. It works out well for passengers originating in the West coast who want to visit the mountain zone but those are states with declining population and fleeing businesses..
Please identify what states in the west have declining populations and fleeing businesses.
pgh234 wrote:sea13 wrote:Curious as to what Delta will do once the next phase of construction at SLC is done which will give 20+ more gates to DL. What are are peoples thoughts of what expansion could look like at SLC. Nonstop to ICN? More flights on the A220 to places such as GRR, TYS, RIC, etc.?
Considering SLC has lost all of their nonstops to the Midwest (that had around 95% load factors and sold out FC cabins), I would hope/expect to see IND, CMH, CLE, and PIT come back first.
USAirALB wrote:ncflyer wrote:I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.
No...ORD/MSP/DEN/DTW/PHX are all more geographically suited to connect those traffic flows...connecting in SLC adds roughly 150-250 miles to the trip. It's often actually even geographically shorter to connect in NYC or WAS versus SLC...BOS-SAN via SLC is 2731mi while BOS-SAN via IAD is only 2666mi. The only place in California where SLC has an advantage is to the Bay Area and SMF.
Again, keep in mind, DL only serves major cities in California from SLC. No service to SBA/SBP/ACV/MRY/STS/BFL etc.
It's telling that SBA is able to support service to DFW/ORD/DEN but cannot sustain service to SLC.
I agree that airlines and hubs cannot be something to everyone...that isn't the point. The SLC hub clearly serves a role in the Delta network, which is to serve as an Intermountain West and lower Pacific Northwest connecting hub.flyPIT wrote:if DL didn't have a hub in DTW and MSP then BDL-SLC all of a sudden makes sense.
But they do have a hub in DTW and MSP...
jbs2886 wrote:I agree SLC has pretty decent location for a hub - it certainly isn't bad. But, I think the major things holding it back is it isn't a huge city (ATL, DFW, etc.) / large city with outsized business presence (e.g., CLT with banking) and that DL has two coastal hubs (LAX and SEA) that siphon a lot of traffic that would otherwise flow over SLC. I see continued build up of DL in SLC, but I don't see some massive growth.
jbs2886 wrote:I agree SLC has pretty decent location for a hub - it certainly isn't bad. But, I think the major things holding it back is it isn't a huge city (ATL, DFW, etc.) / large city with outsized business presence (e.g., CLT with banking) and that DL has two coastal hubs (LAX and SEA) that siphon a lot of traffic that would otherwise flow over SLC. I see continued build up of DL in SLC, but I don't see some massive growth.
SESGDL wrote:I always find it a little comical when people mention great circle mapper distances. Do people really think the average person is calculating which hub will get them from Point A to Point B via the shortest path? If that were the case CLT and ATL wouldn't be the powerhouses they are today. People buy on price and price alone (with schedule being a distant 2nd), if the price is right people will travel completely out of their way. SLC is a majority O&D destination and will continue to be given the recent and continued population growth. SLC will never be able to compete with DEN and doesn't need to as it serves its function well. And listing smaller California cities is irrelevant to this conversation as it's not a function of SLC's lack of strength as a hub and more about how DL has been more aggressive with dumping 50-seat RJs (UA is way behind on this front and thus, still serves a lot of small cities with 50-seat RJs). Look for a lot of these size cities to lose more service in the future as AA and UA work to dump them as well.
Jeremy
O23 wrote:tjerome wrote:DL will start flying PVD-MSP 5x weekly beginning June 6th and upgrading to daily on July 7th on an A320. That will be year round, they did add it seasonally last summer but was last served in 2014. Also, looks like CR9 service to LGA started out of PVD earlier this year and DTW is seeing 717s. Interesting adds for PVD, I'd guess it's a part of the growing market share in BOS since for some of metro Boston, PVD would be closer (and certainly cost less) than going to BOS.
https://www.pvdairport.com/corporate/ne ... -laguardia
https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... treal.html
Looks like that got trimmed back down to only summer daily on an A319 for MSP and a three daily CRJ-900 to DTW
SESGDL wrote:jbs2886 wrote:I agree SLC has pretty decent location for a hub - it certainly isn't bad. But, I think the major things holding it back is it isn't a huge city (ATL, DFW, etc.) / large city with outsized business presence (e.g., CLT with banking) and that DL has two coastal hubs (LAX and SEA) that siphon a lot of traffic that would otherwise flow over SLC. I see continued build up of DL in SLC, but I don't see some massive growth.
CLT being a banking center has little to do with its success and size. CLT instead is a massive hub due to its location (the only other large hub in the American Southeast - arguably the most populated region of the country) and its extremely low average CPE. Last stats I saw showed CLT being over 80% connecting passengers, actually considerably smaller in O&D than SLC.
Jeremy
DLHAM wrote:A friend just told me that Delta returns to Stuttgart from November 2022, I looked up and the flights are indeed bookable, unser their old flight numbers 116/117 with a 763ER.
I heard that this flight got axed just as DUS, with axed I mean axed and not paused. Anyone with more insight?
If this returns I would have expected a return in early 2023 and not with the Winter season.
ncflyer wrote:I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.
flyPIT wrote:SLC is in an excellent geographic location for a hub; the mere fact that in 2019 it served almost 27 million people for an MSA population of only 1.3 million proves this. In fact SLC probably has the highest number of passengers per MSA population in the US. Furthermore, Salt lake City's isolation from a large number of other population centers makes it more dependable on air service.... further bolstering the hub.
So it's not convenient to use SLC when traveling from CLT to TUS. Who cares, all hubs can't be all things to all people. As far as longer routes that are unserved, often this has more to do with the airline's network than the geography of a certain hub. Why offer BDL-SLC and fly past DTW and MSP? But if DL didn't have a hub in DTW and MSP then BDL-SLC all of a sudden makes sense.
airbazar wrote:ncflyer wrote:I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.
There's no shortage of non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Why would I want to connect? Even DL has non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Granted, it's more problematic if I want to visit a secondary city in California but SLC is too far West from the East coast. If I have to connect I'd rather split the trip with shorter segments and I'll prefer DEN, ORD, DTW, MSP, ahead of SLC.
sea13 wrote:airbazar wrote:ncflyer wrote:I don't buy the geographic argument. Isn't SLC very well situated to serve the Northeast to California? Two big population centers.
There's no shortage of non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Why would I want to connect? Even DL has non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Granted, it's more problematic if I want to visit a secondary city in California but SLC is too far West from the East coast. If I have to connect I'd rather split the trip with shorter segments and I'll prefer DEN, ORD, DTW, MSP, ahead of SLC.
I agree. SMF, SJC, FAT, SFO, OAK, PSP, SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, LGB, are all covered by DL to SLC.
The smaller California markets (SBA, MRY, etc.) is not in the interest of DL, I believe.
alasizon wrote:sea13 wrote:airbazar wrote:
There's no shortage of non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Why would I want to connect? Even DL has non-stop service from the Northeast to California. Granted, it's more problematic if I want to visit a secondary city in California but SLC is too far West from the East coast. If I have to connect I'd rather split the trip with shorter segments and I'll prefer DEN, ORD, DTW, MSP, ahead of SLC.
I agree. SMF, SJC, FAT, SFO, OAK, PSP, SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, LGB, are all covered by DL to SLC.
The smaller California markets (SBA, MRY, etc.) is not in the interest of DL, I believe.
SBA, MRY, and every other Regional market very much is the interest of DL. DL makes its money flying to smaller cities that aren't large metropolises - the money isn't made flying pax SLC-ATL, the money is made flying pax to/from smaller cities.
WidebodyPTV wrote:alasizon wrote:sea13 wrote:
I agree. SMF, SJC, FAT, SFO, OAK, PSP, SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, LGB, are all covered by DL to SLC.
The smaller California markets (SBA, MRY, etc.) is not in the interest of DL, I believe.
SBA, MRY, and every other Regional market very much is the interest of DL. DL makes its money flying to smaller cities that aren't large metropolises - the money isn't made flying pax SLC-ATL, the money is made flying pax to/from smaller cities.
If that were true, the industry wouldn't be pulling out of small markets....
alasizon wrote:WidebodyPTV wrote:alasizon wrote:
SBA, MRY, and every other Regional market very much is the interest of DL. DL makes its money flying to smaller cities that aren't large metropolises - the money isn't made flying pax SLC-ATL, the money is made flying pax to/from smaller cities.
If that were true, the industry wouldn't be pulling out of small markets....
EAS is a separate monkey than regular regional service.