PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I'm going to take the under on that. Completely overfly ATL, and very long and thin and eat up a lot of aircraft time.
For example TYS has 2 CRJs to DTW.....they aren't going to be flying to SLC from there anytime soon.

Agree with you there. They don't even have SLC-IND/CMH in the May schedules so I'm not holding my breath for SLC-GSP/AVL/CHS/TYS.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I'm going to take the under on that. Completely overfly ATL, and very long and thin and eat up a lot of aircraft time.
For example TYS has 2 CRJs to DTW.....they aren't going to be flying to SLC from there anytime soon.

I'm with you. Overfly ATL, DTW & MSP in many cases. They would have to be spilling tons of traffic on those flights to make long thin routes from SLC make sense.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I'm going to take the under on that. Completely overfly ATL, and very long and thin and eat up a lot of aircraft time.
For example TYS has 2 CRJs to DTW.....they aren't going to be flying to SLC from there anytime soon.

The other thing about ATL is that it's probably more likely DL will connect smaller markets out west to ATL than smaller markets in the east to SLC; i.e. they plan to restart ATL-OAK in August and fly things like ATL-BZN/ASE/GEG/ONT/EGE/FCA/HDN/JAC. Sure, there are going to be some things that UA can offer as one-stop via DEN which DL cannot with a single connection (like, say, XNA-RNO) but it's not necessarily profitable to try to be everything to everyone.

ScottB wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I'm going to take the under on that. Completely overfly ATL, and very long and thin and eat up a lot of aircraft time.
For example TYS has 2 CRJs to DTW.....they aren't going to be flying to SLC from there anytime soon.

The other thing about ATL is that it's probably more likely DL will connect smaller markets out west to ATL than smaller markets in the east to SLC; i.e. they plan to restart ATL-OAK in August and fly things like ATL-BZN/ASE/GEG/ONT/EGE/FCA/HDN/JAC. Sure, there are going to be some things that UA can offer as one-stop via DEN which DL cannot with a single connection (like, say, XNA-RNO) but it's not necessarily profitable to try to be everything to everyone.

Yep....and this is where SLC much smaller O&D limits it versus DEN. And you are right where they can it makes more sense to fly into ATL which is multiple orders of magnitude bigger, has better O&D to support "thin" routes, and is a direct pipeline to Florida.

Any updates on the Asia network for the summer and fall? Are MSP and LAX still getting Japan service back, for example? I presume no additional China adds anywhere given the situation with Covid-zero. Sorry if folks have posted this info upthread, but I know conditions are shifting somewhat with South Korea opening up more while China is still very shut down. Asia block hours on the 339 and 359 fleet will impact service across the rest of the network, and I was just checking for an update if anyone is in the know.

TW870 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

Has DL restricted capacity in some markets?
Example my hometown of CID used to see upwards of 11 daily flights between ATL (3) MSP (4) and DTW (4). It’s now down to a total of 5 flights a day - one daily 319 to ATL and 2 CRJs each to MSP and DTW and the flights are spaced out throughout the day. I get the pilot shortage and all but at the very least it would be nice to get rid of those pesky CRJs in favor of CR9s to DTW and also MSP to make up some capacity missing. When does DL plan to phase the 50 seaters out?

It is a very similar situation down here in Dayton, where I commute out of for work. Pre-pandemic, we had:

4xDTW (CRJ/CR9mix)
3xMSP (CRJ)
4xATL (M88)

Now, we're down to:
2xDTW (CR9)
4xATL (3x717, 1xCR9)
1xLGA (CR9 - starts summer)

These small markets used to earn their keep on road warrior business travelers like me, those who flew almost every week and worked in the industries that make up the economy of these small and medium size cities. Many employers - especially big companies - have cut much of that business travel out. Meanwhile, there isn't enough high-end leisure and elective travel to buoy the market as has been in the case in bigger cities. So while some markets very much feel recovered, things still feel very bleak in DAY, CID, etc. I am a DAY-MSP commuter trying to adjust to - at least for now - having no non-stop.

For what it's worth, I've heard DAY-MSP will return eventually.

CIDFlyer wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

DiamondFlyer wrote:

What city do you propose taking the CR9 service away from to give it to CID? The planes aren't just sitting around, they're being operated. I'd be highly surprised to see the 200 gone by 2023, other than for pilot staffing reasons.

What were the types on those 11 flights, and how long ago?

Last summers DL schedule was Atlanta 2x a day with the Boeing 717 for morning flight other flight in evening is on CRJ900. Last fall ATL was 2x 717.
Minneapolis 4x a day -1 CRJ700,
3 CRJ200
Detroit also 4x a day all CRJ200

Thanks for responding to my question. That looks like 7 CR2s of 11 flights. CID was certainly at risk of losing frequencies (and routes) as the CR2s go away.

DL increasing number of flights to/from AMS, as per May 5th

Three-weekly added from Portland:
DL178 333 PDX- AMS,
DL179 333 AMS - PDX

Second daily added from Minneapolis-St.Paul
DL162 333/339 MSP - AMS,
DL163 333/339 AMS - MSP

DeltaRules wrote:

TW870 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

Has DL restricted capacity in some markets?
Example my hometown of CID used to see upwards of 11 daily flights between ATL (3) MSP (4) and DTW (4). It’s now down to a total of 5 flights a day - one daily 319 to ATL and 2 CRJs each to MSP and DTW and the flights are spaced out throughout the day. I get the pilot shortage and all but at the very least it would be nice to get rid of those pesky CRJs in favor of CR9s to DTW and also MSP to make up some capacity missing. When does DL plan to phase the 50 seaters out?

It is a very similar situation down here in Dayton, where I commute out of for work. Pre-pandemic, we had:

4xDTW (CRJ/CR9mix)
3xMSP (CRJ)
4xATL (M88)

Now, we're down to:
2xDTW (CR9)
4xATL (3x717, 1xCR9)
1xLGA (CR9 - starts summer)

These small markets used to earn their keep on road warrior business travelers like me, those who flew almost every week and worked in the industries that make up the economy of these small and medium size cities. Many employers - especially big companies - have cut much of that business travel out. Meanwhile, there isn't enough high-end leisure and elective travel to buoy the market as has been in the case in bigger cities. So while some markets very much feel recovered, things still feel very bleak in DAY, CID, etc. I am a DAY-MSP commuter trying to adjust to - at least for now - having no non-stop.

For what it's worth, I've heard DAY-MSP will return eventually.

Great to know! I hate the -200 so much that I haven't felt that bad about the 2 leg commute since I spent most of it on larger aircraft going through DTW. But if we got a -900 on MSP-DAY I would be thrilled.

DL has recently pushed back the resumption dates of CVG-ORD/DFW to 11/6/2022 and the resumption date of CVG-SFO nonstop service to 11/7/2022.

Does DL really need to keep CVG-ORD/DFW/SFO nonstop service in its schedules with DL having been off of these three routes for more than 2 years (apart from a few CVG-DFW nonstop flights that DL added back in its schedules in December 2021 due to the Bearcats v. Crimson game at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas on 12/31/2021) along with other airlines able to add CVG-DAL/SFO nonstop service if DL completely drops CVG-DFW/SFO nonstop service?

AA and UA would be able to upgauge CVG-ORD nonstop flights to larger aircraft if DL completely drops CVG-ORD nonstop service.

jplatts wrote:

DL has recently pushed back the resumption dates of CVG-ORD/DFW to 11/6/2022 and the resumption date of CVG-SFO nonstop service to 11/7/2022.

Does DL really need to keep CVG-ORD/DFW/SFO nonstop service in its schedules with DL having been off of these three routes for more than 2 years (apart from a few CVG-DFW nonstop flights that DL added back in its schedules in December 2021 due to the Bearcats v. Crimson game at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas on 12/31/2021) along with other airlines able to add CVG-DAL/SFO nonstop service if DL completely drops CVG-DFW/SFO nonstop service?

AA and UA would be able to upgauge CVG-ORD nonstop flights to larger aircraft if DL completely drops CVG-ORD nonstop service.

If AA/UA upguage those routes or if UA starts SFO-CVG, watch how quickly DL adds them back to the schedule.

Jeremy

jplatts wrote:

DL has recently pushed back the resumption dates of CVG-ORD/DFW to 11/6/2022 and the resumption date of CVG-SFO nonstop service to 11/7/2022.

Does DL really need to keep CVG-ORD/DFW/SFO nonstop service in its schedules...


... other airlines able to add CVG-DAL/SFO nonstop service if DL completely drops CVG-DFW/SFO nonstop service?

AA and UA would be able to upgauge CVG-ORD nonstop flights to larger aircraft if DL completely drops CVG-ORD nonstop service.

It's competition - not regulation - that keeps U.S. domestic air fares in check. I'm not sure why you would advocate less competition.

MIflyer12 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

What were the types on those 11 flights, and how long ago?

Last summers DL schedule was Atlanta 2x a day with the Boeing 717 for morning flight other flight in evening is on CRJ900. Last fall ATL was 2x 717.
Minneapolis 4x a day -1 CRJ700,
3 CRJ200
Detroit also 4x a day all CRJ200

Thanks for responding to my question. That looks like 7 CR2s of 11 flights. CID was certainly at risk of losing frequencies (and routes) as the CR2s go away.

I don’t think DL would ever pull a route. Historically we have had MSP and DTW service for years and returned the DTW flights post 2020 last year. (it looks like MLI hasn’t resumed DTW service). I can understand the frequency reduction as CR2s go away but not the capacity reduction. DTW and MSP have seen CRJ900 and CRJ700 flights in the past. Delta used to be a solid #2 in the market behind AA. It would be nice to at least see a larger aircraft so make up for seat reductions.

Allegiant has expanded Los Angeles to year round beyond summer and operates 8 routes here (albeit not daily but it does give one options if it works) and Frontier goes about 4x weekly to Denver. So it’s not like the airport is struggling it’s having its busiest year since the historic high in 2019.

It’s just puzzling to see why DL has reduced so much especially after last year when they returned a lot of capacity post 2020. At least Atlanta is mainline and even an upgrade from the 717.

MIflyer12 wrote:

It's competition - not regulation - that keeps U.S. domestic air fares in check. I'm not sure why you would advocate less competition.

WN adding CVG-DAL nonstop service would provide similar levels of competition to what CVG-DFW had prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, even if DL completely drops CVG-DFW nonstop service.

The return of F9 CVG-SFO nonstop service might also be a possibility in addition to the return of UA CVG-SFO nonstop service if DL completely drops CVG-SFO nonstop service with F9 having recently re-added CVG-PHL/RDU nonstop service. G4 adding CVG-OAK nonstop service might also be a possibility if DL completely drops CVG-SFO nonstop service.

CVG-SFO/OAK and CVG-DFW/DAL are examples of routes where the possibility of additional competition by other airlines would still be there if CVG-DFW/SFO nonstop service is completely dropped by DL.

SESGDL wrote:

If AA/UA upguage those routes or if UA starts SFO-CVG, watch how quickly DL adds them back to the schedule.

While DL served CLT and IAH nonstop from CVG prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA is currently the only airline still serving CLT nonstop from CVG and UA is currently the only airline still serving the IAH/HOU market nonstop from CVG (after the recent discontinuation of WN CVG-HOU nonstop service).

I would probably expect nonstop competition to return on CVG-IAH/HOU (possibly on an airline other than DL), even if CVG-IAH nonstop service isn't re-added by DL.

I am unsure if AA/UA would face competitive responses from DL with respect to the upgauging of AA/UA CVG-ORD nonstop flights or the resumption of UA CVG-SFO nonstop service with both AA and UA currently operating some nonstop routes out of CVG that aren't currently operated by DL, including CVG-CLT/ORD/DFW/PHL by AA and CVG-ORD/IAH by UA.

The situation is different on CVG-CHI than on CVG-DFW/DAL or CVG-SFO/OAK as CHI is unlikely to have nonstop service out of CVG on any ULCC's, whereas F9 currently serves DFW nonstop from CVG on a less-than-daily basis and the possibility of F9 or G4 adding nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area out of CVG is there.

The PDEW of CVG-CHI was only 216 passengers/day in Q4 2021, which was down from a PDEW of 403 passengers/day on CVG-CHI in Q4 2019. I can certainly understand DL continuing to suspend CVG-ORD nonstop service with the demand to CHI from CVG still being weaker than it was prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

CIDFlyer wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

Last summers DL schedule was Atlanta 2x a day with the Boeing 717 for morning flight other flight in evening is on CRJ900. Last fall ATL was 2x 717.
Minneapolis 4x a day -1 CRJ700,
3 CRJ200
Detroit also 4x a day all CRJ200

Thanks for responding to my question. That looks like 7 CR2s of 11 flights. CID was certainly at risk of losing frequencies (and routes) as the CR2s go away.

I don’t think DL would ever pull a route. Historically we have had MSP and DTW service for years and returned the DTW flights post 2020 last year. (it looks like MLI hasn’t resumed DTW service). I can understand the frequency reduction as CR2s go away but not the capacity reduction. DTW and MSP have seen CRJ900 and CRJ700 flights in the past. Delta used to be a solid #2 in the market behind AA. It would be nice to at least see a larger aircraft so make up for seat reductions.

Allegiant has expanded Los Angeles to year round beyond summer and operates 8 routes here (albeit not daily but it does give one options if it works) and Frontier goes about 4x weekly to Denver. So it’s not like the airport is struggling it’s having its busiest year since the historic high in 2019.

It’s just puzzling to see why DL has reduced so much especially after last year when they returned a lot of capacity post 2020. At least Atlanta is mainline and even an upgrade from the 717.

The 717 to ATL is your answer. As part of their CR2 reductions, DL has been pulling a lot of the seats from DTW/MSP-(small Midwestern market), and shifting those seats to connect in ATL via the 717 upgrades. The model is similar throughout the Midwest. Places like CID see CR2 frequencies reduced to all destinations, and DL seats replaced by more/new 717 flying to ATL.

I have family in South Bend, two of whom regularly used the former SBN-DTW-XXX TATL routes for business. With SBN-DTW now down to 1x daily, and timed horribly for TATL connections, they are now flying UA via ORD, rather than fly the DL 717 south to ATL, only to fly north again for TATL.

Larger Midwest markets are seeing some CR7/CR9 consolidations to 717s to DTW, or 319s to MSP. But for markets like CID that weren’t big enough to be 3x/4x daily on all CR7/CR9s, the current DL solution is connect through ATL.

CIDFlyer wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

Last summers DL schedule was Atlanta 2x a day with the Boeing 717 for morning flight other flight in evening is on CRJ900. Last fall ATL was 2x 717.
Minneapolis 4x a day -1 CRJ700,
3 CRJ200
Detroit also 4x a day all CRJ200

Thanks for responding to my question. That looks like 7 CR2s of 11 flights. CID was certainly at risk of losing frequencies (and routes) as the CR2s go away.

I don’t think DL would ever pull a route.

Kavok disagreed with you, and I think he offers a compelling thesis: They shall connect in Atlanta! I paraphrase.

I'm going to disagree with you, too.

Yes, for CID, MSP is the better hub when going west: less backtracking, more destinations, more frequencies. It's symmetrical going east: DTW is the better DL hub, for the same reasons.

But at some point (and it may be even be higher than 1x daily), there just isn't enough frequency to build connectivity -- even with banks. (And DL@DTW is banked - there are times of day you could fire a cannon from A2 to A77 and not hit anybody. That's not a Covid thing. It's not a DL thing. It's been like that since DTW McNamara opened.) 'Oh, your incoming flight is late and you missed the last flight DTW-CID. You can wait 23 hours 45 minutes or fly to DSM and get an Uber at your own expense.' ... because a butterfly flapped its wings near LaGuardia and they got 1/10 of an inch of rain. (Yes, I have been presented this scenario by DL, formerly 2x SLC-GJT.)

That's when they'll collapse the network and serve fewer hubs. I believe dozens (yes, plural) of airports are going to lose service to one or more hubs as RJ and mainline networks get rationalized from needing to pay pilots more. If carriers need to pay more they're going to insist on more seats per pilot hour.

I can see a world where CID-MSP 4x is better than CID-DTW 1x plus CID-MSP 3x. It's not necessarily better if you want to fly DL heading east, but more frequency to MSP can better compete against UA CID-ORD. Oh, and it looks like UA CID-ORD is 4x CR2. A lot of UA CR2s are going away before end 2026.

I'm not picking on CID. There are lots of small-ish airports that are going to suffer destination and frequency loss in the next five years. Such airports shouldn't need to pay Boyd Consulting for a study to tell them that.

If the CID Airport is ready to beg or bribe (an euphemism - I assume they'll use legal incentives) DL for service, pass on Detroit and ask for JFK. You'll get the NYC O&D plus all the TATL connections.

MIflyer12 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

Thanks for responding to my question. That looks like 7 CR2s of 11 flights. CID was certainly at risk of losing frequencies (and routes) as the CR2s go away.

I don’t think DL would ever pull a route.

Kavok disagreed with you, and I think he offers a compelling thesis: They shall connect in Atlanta! I paraphrase.

I'm going to disagree with you, too.

Yes, for CID, MSP is the better hub when going west: less backtracking, more destinations, more frequencies. It's symmetrical going east: DTW is the better DL hub, for the same reasons.

But at some point (and it may be even be higher than 1x daily), there just isn't enough frequency to build connectivity -- even with banks. (And DL@DTW is banked - there are times of day you could fire a cannon from A2 to A77 and not hit anybody. That's not a Covid thing. It's not a DL thing. It's been like that since DTW McNamara opened.) 'Oh, your incoming flight is late and you missed the last flight DTW-CID. You can wait 23 hours 45 minutes or fly to DSM and get an Uber at your own expense.' ... because a butterfly flapped its wings near LaGuardia and they got 1/10 of an inch of rain. (Yes, I have been presented this scenario by DL, formerly 2x SLC-GJT.)

That's when they'll collapse the network and serve fewer hubs. I believe dozens (yes, plural) of airports are going to lose service to one or more hubs as RJ and mainline networks get rationalized from needing to pay pilots more. If carriers need to pay more they're going to insist on more seats per pilot hour.

I can see a world where CID-MSP 4x is better than CID-DTW 1x plus CID-MSP 3x. It's not necessarily better if you want to fly DL heading east, but more frequency to MSP can better compete against UA CID-ORD. Oh, and it looks like UA CID-ORD is 4x CR2. A lot of UA CR2s are going away before end 2026.

I'm not picking on CID. There are lots of small-ish airports that are going to suffer destination and frequency loss in the next five years. Such airports shouldn't need to pay Boyd Consulting for a study to tell them that.

If the CID Airport is ready to beg or bribe (an euphemism - I assume they'll use legal incentives) DL for service, pass on Detroit and ask for JFK. You'll get the NYC O&D plus all the TATL connections.

UA to ORD in June goes to 2 CRJ/1 E75 and 1 738.

I’d rather have something like that to MSP and just drop DTW if that’s the case. ATL has usually been between 1-3 a day (currently 1x daily) and on mainline for the first flight of the day currently an A319 which goes to an A320 this summer.

I get that there are alot of smaller airports that will be hurt with the reduced CR2 flying, I wouldn’t consider an airport that does over one million passengers in a year to be terribly small. There are a lot of airports that handle much less traffic that would be more worrisome (MLI/PIA/DBQ/RST/ATW/GRB/LSE) come to mind. None with the exception of ATW currently see mainline from the big 3 legacies.

It just goes back to my original question which Is I don’t see why DL has pulled down so much especially considering it’s supposed to be busier this summer than last year when they had a more robust schedule amid a pandemic. Save for ATL, it doesn’t even seem like they are trying here recently, and UA and AA are going to be the beneficiaries.

CIDFlyer wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

I don’t think DL would ever pull a route.

Kavok disagreed with you, and I think he offers a compelling thesis: They shall connect in Atlanta! I paraphrase.

I'm going to disagree with you, too.

Yes, for CID, MSP is the better hub when going west: less backtracking, more destinations, more frequencies. It's symmetrical going east: DTW is the better DL hub, for the same reasons.

But at some point (and it may be even be higher than 1x daily), there just isn't enough frequency to build connectivity -- even with banks. (And DL@DTW is banked - there are times of day you could fire a cannon from A2 to A77 and not hit anybody. That's not a Covid thing. It's not a DL thing. It's been like that since DTW McNamara opened.) 'Oh, your incoming flight is late and you missed the last flight DTW-CID. You can wait 23 hours 45 minutes or fly to DSM and get an Uber at your own expense.' ... because a butterfly flapped its wings near LaGuardia and they got 1/10 of an inch of rain. (Yes, I have been presented this scenario by DL, formerly 2x SLC-GJT.)

That's when they'll collapse the network and serve fewer hubs. I believe dozens (yes, plural) of airports are going to lose service to one or more hubs as RJ and mainline networks get rationalized from needing to pay pilots more. If carriers need to pay more they're going to insist on more seats per pilot hour.

I can see a world where CID-MSP 4x is better than CID-DTW 1x plus CID-MSP 3x. It's not necessarily better if you want to fly DL heading east, but more frequency to MSP can better compete against UA CID-ORD. Oh, and it looks like UA CID-ORD is 4x CR2. A lot of UA CR2s are going away before end 2026.

I'm not picking on CID. There are lots of small-ish airports that are going to suffer destination and frequency loss in the next five years. Such airports shouldn't need to pay Boyd Consulting for a study to tell them that.

If the CID Airport is ready to beg or bribe (an euphemism - I assume they'll use legal incentives) DL for service, pass on Detroit and ask for JFK. You'll get the NYC O&D plus all the TATL connections.

UA to ORD in June goes to 2 CRJ/1 E75 and 1 738.

It just goes back to my original question which Is I don’t see why DL has pulled down so much especially considering it’s supposed to be busier this summer than last year when they had a more robust schedule amid a pandemic. Save for ATL, it doesn’t even seem like they are trying here recently, and UA and AA are going to be the beneficiaries.

I think your reference to ORD is very important. For a lot of us in the smaller midwestern markets like CID and DAY, UA is starting to look a lot more appealing because of the strength of connections through ORD when compared to what DL offers. At DAY, for example, with MSP axed and DTW down to two trips a day, most of the options go through ATL. ATL is far enough north that it is pretty competitive for most routings, but the northeast, mountain west, and pacific northwest are very inconvenient now. When you factor in how massively high fares are for the summer, I can see DL bleeding some premium traffic over to UA. I'm looking at routings for secondary California markets out of DAY that are $1200 round trip in coach, 5am departure outbound, midnight arrival on return through ATL. Not good value by any means.

Im told I shouldn’t link ‘personal’ Twitter accounts, I reckon that means accounts with a persons name on it, so i will say it instead, from @wandrme on Twitter, the DOT will begin a frequency allocation proceeding for United’s IAD CPT and delta’s ATL CPT

Why should the DOT give more to United? Isnt it only fair to give more to delta to balance it?

CIDFlyer wrote:

I get that there are alot of smaller airports that will be hurt with the reduced CR2 flying, I wouldn’t consider an airport that does over one million passengers in a year to be terribly small. There are a lot of airports that handle much less traffic that would be more worrisome (MLI/PIA/DBQ/RST/ATW/GRB/LSE) come to mind. None with the exception of ATW currently see mainline from the big 3 legacies.

There is likely significant leakage from the Dubuque area to airports such as CID, MSN, and MLI that have far more service than DBQ does. All 3 of the US3 carriers serve CID, MSN, and MLI, whereas AA is currently the only airline serving DBQ.

There is some leakage to MSP from the Rochester, MN area due to the proximity of Rochester, MN to the Twin Cities and MSP having significantly more flights than RST does.

ATW and GRB are only 34 miles from each other (by driving distance) in Northeast Wisconsin, but are located in separate CSA's (with ATW being located in the Appleton-Oshkosh-Neenah CSA and GRB being located in the Green Bay-Shawano CSA).

PIA is located near BMI in Central Illinois (even though PIA is located in the Peoria, IL MSA and BMI is located in the Bloomington-Pontiac, IL MSA).

LSE is far enough from both MSN and MSP to support some commercial passenger air service out of LSE. The only other options closer to LSE than MSN are smaller regional airports such as EAU and RST that have limited commercial flights.

CIDFlyer wrote:

I’d rather have something like that to MSP and just drop DTW if that’s the case. ATL has usually been between 1-3 a day (currently 1x daily) and on mainline for the first flight of the day currently an A319 which goes to an A320 this summer.

I get that there are alot of smaller airports that will be hurt with the reduced CR2 flying, I wouldn’t consider an airport that does over one million passengers in a year to be terribly small. There are a lot of airports that handle much less traffic that would be more worrisome (MLI/PIA/DBQ/RST/ATW/GRB/LSE) come to mind. None with the exception of ATW currently see mainline from the big 3 legacies.

Delta announced the end of the CRJ-200s by December 2023 - and that was even before the regionals' staffing shortages blew up.

BTA Transtats put CID at #112 among U.S. airport for departing domestic passengers. I wouldn't call it big. https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp

Delta's upgauging strategy (which improves pilot/gate/GA productivity plus fuel efficiency) means that it's going to lose some passengers in small markets to other carriers. United has its 5-year United Next project and is upgauging, too.

Oh, yes, a lot of small airports are going to be hosed. (I remember DTW-LSE, back around 2010 -- gone.)

I'm not outright predicting DL will drop DTW-CID and bolster MSP-CID seat counts (if not frequency), but I wouldn't be surprised, either.

MIflyer12 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

I’d rather have something like that to MSP and just drop DTW if that’s the case. ATL has usually been between 1-3 a day (currently 1x daily) and on mainline for the first flight of the day currently an A319 which goes to an A320 this summer.

I get that there are alot of smaller airports that will be hurt with the reduced CR2 flying, I wouldn’t consider an airport that does over one million passengers in a year to be terribly small. There are a lot of airports that handle much less traffic that would be more worrisome (MLI/PIA/DBQ/RST/ATW/GRB/LSE) come to mind. None with the exception of ATW currently see mainline from the big 3 legacies.

Delta announced the end of the CRJ-200s by December 2023 - and that was even before the regionals' staffing shortages blew up.

BTA Transtats put CID at #112 among U.S. airport for departing domestic passengers. I wouldn't call it big. https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp

Delta's upgauging strategy (which improves pilot/gate/GA productivity plus fuel efficiency) means that it's going to lose some passengers in small markets to other carriers. United has its 5-year United Next project and is upgauging, too.

Oh, yes, a lot of small airports are going to be hosed. (I remember DTW-LSE, back around 2010 -- gone.)

I'm not outright predicting DL will drop DTW-CID and bolster MSP-CID seat counts (if not frequency), but I wouldn't be surprised, either.

Just like the 717 going away in 2025, plans change. Assuming they can get the pilot staffing issues fixed (which truthfully, the issue is having enough captains), I would expect to see the 200's go well beyond 2023, from what I've heard...

MIflyer12 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

I’d rather have something like that to MSP and just drop DTW if that’s the case. ATL has usually been between 1-3 a day (currently 1x daily) and on mainline for the first flight of the day currently an A319 which goes to an A320 this summer.

I get that there are alot of smaller airports that will be hurt with the reduced CR2 flying, I wouldn’t consider an airport that does over one million passengers in a year to be terribly small. There are a lot of airports that handle much less traffic that would be more worrisome (MLI/PIA/DBQ/RST/ATW/GRB/LSE) come to mind. None with the exception of ATW currently see mainline from the big 3 legacies.

Delta announced the end of the CRJ-200s by December 2023 - and that was even before the regionals' staffing shortages blew up.

BTA Transtats put CID at #112 among U.S. airport for departing domestic passengers. I wouldn't call it big. https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp

Delta's upgauging strategy (which improves pilot/gate/GA productivity plus fuel efficiency) means that it's going to lose some passengers in small markets to other carriers. United has its 5-year United Next project and is upgauging, too.

Oh, yes, a lot of small airports are going to be hosed. (I remember DTW-LSE, back around 2010 -- gone.)

I'm not outright predicting DL will drop DTW-CID and bolster MSP-CID seat counts (if not frequency), but I wouldn't be surprised, either.

I agree that some small airports are going to lose service. That is not new - but rather part of a 70-year trend of technological and demographic change. The cost dynamics of the DC-3 and Convair/Martin twins coupled with the point-to-point model of the regulated industry allowed small towns to have robust air service in the 1945-1965 period. I just pulled out some old schedules to look at flights out of MSP from the summer of 1960 to illustrate this. Look at a few of these morning flights - and these are just examples as flights such as these operated all day:

6:15am Ozark DC-3 MSP-Austin, MN-Mason CIty, IA-Waterloo, IA
6:30am North Central Convair 340 MSP-Eau Claire, WI - Wassau, WI - Green Bay, WI
7:00am Braniff Convair 340 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Sioux City, IA - Waterloo, IA
7:00am Western Convair 240 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Huron, SD - Pierre, SD

Once jets like the DC-9 and BAC 1-11 replaced the pistons, and as crew wages went up along with labor's power in the 1960s, lots of these milk runs were dropped and stage lengths went way up. The situation today is similar, as the low-paid RJ pilot saddled with college debt facing a decade on the CRJ-200 is over, and the airlines just have to adjust.

TW870 wrote:

I agree that some small airports are going to lose service. That is not new - but rather part of a 70-year trend of technological and demographic change. The cost dynamics of the DC-3 and Convair/Martin twins coupled with the point-to-point model of the regulated industry allowed small towns to have robust air service in the 1945-1965 period. I just pulled out some old schedules to look at flights out of MSP from the summer of 1960 to illustrate this. Look at a few of these morning flights - and these are just examples as flights such as these operated all day:

6:15am Ozark DC-3 MSP-Austin, MN-Mason CIty, IA-Waterloo, IA
6:30am North Central Convair 340 MSP-Eau Claire, WI - Wassau, WI - Green Bay, WI
7:00am Braniff Convair 340 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Sioux City, IA - Waterloo, IA
7:00am Western Convair 240 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Huron, SD - Pierre, SD

Once jets like the DC-9 and BAC 1-11 replaced the pistons, and as crew wages went up along with labor's power in the 1960s, lots of these milk runs were dropped and stage lengths went way up. The situation today is similar, as the low-paid RJ pilot saddled with college debt facing a decade on the CRJ-200 is over, and the airlines just have to adjust.

I appreciate the historical perspective but I'm going to attribute the decline of small city service you describe as effects of deregulation. U.S. carriers didn't have frequency or price competition (except from nearby airports) thanks to route and price regulation by the CAB. CAB's pricing model provided a 7% return on sales with load factors at 55%. That kept flying largely a business good and luxury good in the 1960s. Remember when middle-income families of five had just one car (an oligopic market way more concentrated than U.S. air travel today), one phone (heavily regulated monopolies), and one TV?

If we were to apply that regulatory power and philosophy to CIDflyer's concern today, then CID would get some flights to Chicago (on AA or UA, but not both), and perhaps DL to DTW or MSP (but not both). You might see milk runs like SFO-RNO-DEN-CID-ORD. Avg prices CID-ORD would easily be 200% of what they are today, and UA would have far less fare stratification - maybe four coach fare buckets instead of 15.

It's a general belief of mine - not specific to the DL network - that U.S. carriers have decided if they're going to pay pilots good money, they don't want them flying 50-seat aircraft; it's going to be 76-seat, 130-seat, or 175-seat aircraft. Look at the upgauging done in the last decade, and announced for the near-term (with orders placed!) by DL, UA, WN (their first 738 ten years ago, and now they have 280 -800 or 7M8), Spirit, Frontier (they had A318s!), and Allegiant.

I opine that this is going to lead to rather lower frequency and route choices at small and mid-size airports. That's going to feed a death spiral of high-fare business travelers driving to busier airports that have more frequency and more n/s destinations.

MIflyer12 wrote:

TW870 wrote:

I agree that some small airports are going to lose service. That is not new - but rather part of a 70-year trend of technological and demographic change. The cost dynamics of the DC-3 and Convair/Martin twins coupled with the point-to-point model of the regulated industry allowed small towns to have robust air service in the 1945-1965 period. I just pulled out some old schedules to look at flights out of MSP from the summer of 1960 to illustrate this. Look at a few of these morning flights - and these are just examples as flights such as these operated all day:

6:15am Ozark DC-3 MSP-Austin, MN-Mason CIty, IA-Waterloo, IA
6:30am North Central Convair 340 MSP-Eau Claire, WI - Wassau, WI - Green Bay, WI
7:00am Braniff Convair 340 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Sioux City, IA - Waterloo, IA
7:00am Western Convair 240 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Huron, SD - Pierre, SD

Once jets like the DC-9 and BAC 1-11 replaced the pistons, and as crew wages went up along with labor's power in the 1960s, lots of these milk runs were dropped and stage lengths went way up. The situation today is similar, as the low-paid RJ pilot saddled with college debt facing a decade on the CRJ-200 is over, and the airlines just have to adjust.

I appreciate the historical perspective but I'm going to attribute the decline of small city service you describe as effects of deregulation. U.S. carriers didn't have frequency or price competition (except from nearby airports) thanks to route and price regulation by the CAB. CAB's pricing model provided a 7% return on sales with load factors at 55%. That kept flying largely a business good and luxury good in the 1960s. Remember when middle-income families of five had just one car (an oligopic market way more concentrated than U.S. air travel today), one phone (heavily regulated monopolies), and one TV?

If we were to apply that regulatory power and philosophy to CIDflyer's concern today, then CID would get some flights to Chicago (on AA or UA, but not both), and perhaps DL to DTW or MSP (but not both). You might see milk runs like SFO-RNO-DEN-CID-ORD. Avg prices CID-ORD would easily be 200% of what they are today, and UA would have far less fare stratification - maybe four coach fare buckets instead of 15.

It's a general belief of mine - not specific to the DL network - that U.S. carriers have decided if they're going to pay pilots good money, they don't want them flying 50-seat aircraft; it's going to be 76-seat, 130-seat, or 175-seat aircraft. Look at the upgauging done in the last decade, and announced for the near-term (with orders placed!) by DL, UA, WN (their first 738 ten years ago, and now they have 280 -800 or 7M8), Spirit, Frontier (they had A318s!), and Allegiant.

I opine that this is going to lead to rather lower frequency and route choices at small and mid-size airports. That's going to feed a death spiral of high-fare business travelers driving to busier airports that have more frequency and more n/s destinations.

I agree with everything you said except for the last sentence - and its not that I disagree with it but rather that I don't think we can predict. I am not yet convinced that traffic leakage through driving is going to drastically change business travel patterns. Due to a variety of new remote work technologies, business travelers can be very productive while traveling, doing zoom calls from the Skyclub and using various non-voice internet platforms connected to the wifi in flight. Driving, however, is a complete waste of time. In my case, I am about 35 minutes from DAY, and about 100 minutes from IND and CMH. Both IND and CMH have non-stops on my commute route to MSP. But I never, every use IND or CMH, because of the wasted driving time, and given hazards to driving in the winter. Instead, I have just adjusted to working on DAY-ATL-MSP or via DTW. I wonder how many other business travelers are like me? Bottom line is that we are still figuring out what business travel is even going to look like. I agree totally that reduced frequency in mid-size markets is probably going to change things, but I don't think we yet know how.

TW870 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

TW870 wrote:

I agree that some small airports are going to lose service. That is not new - but rather part of a 70-year trend of technological and demographic change. The cost dynamics of the DC-3 and Convair/Martin twins coupled with the point-to-point model of the regulated industry allowed small towns to have robust air service in the 1945-1965 period. I just pulled out some old schedules to look at flights out of MSP from the summer of 1960 to illustrate this. Look at a few of these morning flights - and these are just examples as flights such as these operated all day:

6:15am Ozark DC-3 MSP-Austin, MN-Mason CIty, IA-Waterloo, IA
6:30am North Central Convair 340 MSP-Eau Claire, WI - Wassau, WI - Green Bay, WI
7:00am Braniff Convair 340 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Sioux City, IA - Waterloo, IA
7:00am Western Convair 240 MSP- Sioux Falls, SD - Huron, SD - Pierre, SD

Once jets like the DC-9 and BAC 1-11 replaced the pistons, and as crew wages went up along with labor's power in the 1960s, lots of these milk runs were dropped and stage lengths went way up. The situation today is similar, as the low-paid RJ pilot saddled with college debt facing a decade on the CRJ-200 is over, and the airlines just have to adjust.

I appreciate the historical perspective but I'm going to attribute the decline of small city service you describe as effects of deregulation. U.S. carriers didn't have frequency or price competition (except from nearby airports) thanks to route and price regulation by the CAB. CAB's pricing model provided a 7% return on sales with load factors at 55%. That kept flying largely a business good and luxury good in the 1960s. Remember when middle-income families of five had just one car (an oligopic market way more concentrated than U.S. air travel today), one phone (heavily regulated monopolies), and one TV?

If we were to apply that regulatory power and philosophy to CIDflyer's concern today, then CID would get some flights to Chicago (on AA or UA, but not both), and perhaps DL to DTW or MSP (but not both). You might see milk runs like SFO-RNO-DEN-CID-ORD. Avg prices CID-ORD would easily be 200% of what they are today, and UA would have far less fare stratification - maybe four coach fare buckets instead of 15.

It's a general belief of mine - not specific to the DL network - that U.S. carriers have decided if they're going to pay pilots good money, they don't want them flying 50-seat aircraft; it's going to be 76-seat, 130-seat, or 175-seat aircraft. Look at the upgauging done in the last decade, and announced for the near-term (with orders placed!) by DL, UA, WN (their first 738 ten years ago, and now they have 280 -800 or 7M8), Spirit, Frontier (they had A318s!), and Allegiant.

I opine that this is going to lead to rather lower frequency and route choices at small and mid-size airports. That's going to feed a death spiral of high-fare business travelers driving to busier airports that have more frequency and more n/s destinations.

I agree with everything you said except for the last sentence - and its not that I disagree with it but rather that I don't think we can predict. I am not yet convinced that traffic leakage through driving is going to drastically change business travel patterns. Due to a variety of new remote work technologies, business travelers can be very productive while traveling, doing zoom calls from the Skyclub and using various non-voice internet platforms connected to the wifi in flight. Driving, however, is a complete waste of time. In my case, I am about 35 minutes from DAY, and about 100 minutes from IND and CMH. Both IND and CMH have non-stops on my commute route to MSP. But I never, every use IND or CMH, because of the wasted driving time, and given hazards to driving in the winter. Instead, I have just adjusted to working on DAY-ATL-MSP or via DTW. I wonder how many other business travelers are like me? Bottom line is that we are still figuring out what business travel is even going to look like. I agree totally that reduced frequency in mid-size markets is probably going to change things, but I don't think we yet know how.

I use the same reasoning on the other end. The last choice I made like this was chossing SPS vs. DFW.

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Amazing. Thank you so much for this information.

I’m shocked that there’s still no crew/pilot base at BOS.

Is MSP now larger than DTW by departures, seats, and passengers?

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Thanks for compiling this! Amazing how much DL has cut DTW and MSP. SLC now has almost as many mainline flights as DTW and MSP.

Jeremy

SESGDL wrote:

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Thanks for compiling this! Amazing how much DL has cut DTW and MSP. SLC now has almost as many mainline flights as DTW and MSP.

Jeremy

A few things in SLC’s favor. DL will only be growing with the new terminal expansion moving along. The Salt Lake City-Provo metro area is booming in the tech and finance sectors. Another thing that will help DL growth in SLC is state wide population growth in ID, UT, NV, and MT all becoming places booming in population and outdoor leisure travel.

Does anyone know How Far in advance Delta is posting international schedules? I’m going to use Detroit as an example right now if you look ahead to November it almost looks like a generic schedule from 2019, for example Detroit Amsterdam has two 330s and one 350 but right now it’s all 350, same thing for Frankfurt right now it’s 330 but in November shows 764
I know the recovery from Covid has had airlines almost shooting at the hip and guessing, but I was wondering if anyone knows how far ahead Delta is actually looking right now?
Thanks

SESGDL wrote:

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Thanks for compiling this! Amazing how much DL has cut DTW and MSP. SLC now has almost as many mainline flights as DTW and MSP.

Jeremy

Echoing the thank you. Lots of good info.

I found it interesting that even as much as DTW and MSP have been shrunk relative to ATL, that the remaining regional operations are still larger in total number at DTW & MSP compared to ATL (obviously the % is larger to no surprise). Diving in deeper, the DTW & MSP RJ operations are nearly the same size, and both are about 30% 50 seaters vs 70% 70/76 seater RJs. This contrasts with ATL which is about 70% 50seaters and 30% 70/76 seater RJs.

Also interesting is the size of service between the 2nd and 3rd largest hubs of MSP & DTW. To be blunt, I was surprised the seat count between those two markets wasn’t significantly higher. Given that many small markets (that previously has service to both MSP & DTW) have seen service reduced to either DTW or MSP, I would have expected more seats between DTW & MSP to facilitate that now necessary additional connection. Further, I imagine a decent % of seats between the DTW & MSP markets would be needed to accommodate the inevitable IRROPS reroutings.

I think it just further highlights how DL is trying to push even more connecting traffic through ATL wherever possible.

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Awesome work by the way! I did notice that SEA to PDX is only showing 1 flight? I count 7 on a random Thursday in June. I frequently fly that route on Delta.

Curious to know how many flights DL will operate out of SEA during the summer peak?

kavok wrote:

I think it just further highlights how DL is trying to push even more connecting traffic through ATL wherever possible.

It's kind of past time to kill the 'Delta loves only Atlanta' shtick. One might observe that AA maintained DFW and CLT over JFK, LGA, MIA, ORD and LAX throughout Covid, too. (See AA network threads here on a.net.) The biggest hubs can maintain n/s destination count, gauge (read: lower CASM), and frequency in ways that smaller hubs can't when the network is running just ~80% of 2019 ASMs.

FSDan's flight counts by hub for summer 2018:

ATL, 1057 flights/day

DTW, 453

MSP, 447

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1396835

F9Animal wrote:

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Awesome work by the way! I did notice that SEA to PDX is only showing 1 flight? I count 7 on a random Thursday in June. I frequently fly that route on Delta.

Curious to know how many flights DL will operate out of SEA during the summer peak?

It says 7, 1 for mainline and 6 for regional.

a320flyer wrote:

F9Animal wrote:

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Awesome work by the way! I did notice that SEA to PDX is only showing 1 flight? I count 7 on a random Thursday in June. I frequently fly that route on Delta.

Curious to know how many flights DL will operate out of SEA during the summer peak?

It says 7, 1 for mainline and 6 for regional.

I see it now! Wow!! I totally missed that. Thank you.

MIflyer12 wrote:

kavok wrote:

I think it just further highlights how DL is trying to push even more connecting traffic through ATL wherever possible.

It's kind of past time to kill the 'Delta loves only Atlanta' shtick. One might observe that AA maintained DFW and CLT over JFK, LGA, MIA, ORD and LAX throughout Covid, too. (See AA network threads here on a.net.) The biggest hubs can maintain n/s destination count, gauge (read: lower CASM), and frequency in ways that smaller hubs can't when the network is running just ~80% of 2019 ASMs

That’s not true. Nearly the entirety of AA’s domestic network from Miami, even thinner flying like Fayetteville and Des Moines, was maintained throughout COVID. AA even added more thin domestic flying like Portland and Huntsville. MIA is larger for AA today than pre-COVID. JFK, while it was cut a lot at peak, is also larger now for AA at PHL’s expense.

Over the past week I’ve noticed a decrease in Delta‘s flying out of South Bend. They have normally had multiple flights a day to each of their hubs but, for example, today they only had one flight to Detroit and the same is true for tomorrow. Any ideas why the sudden decrease in flying in/out of South Bend?

That's what AA did last year in HVN. One flight to PHL and for a while it had terrible flight times. It arrived late afternoon, departed early evening and by the time it got to PHL, very few connections, none on Tuesday and Wednesday. DL might be looking to pull out.

jmscsc wrote:

Over the past week I’ve noticed a decrease in Delta‘s flying out of South Bend. They have normally had multiple flights a day to each of their hubs but, for example, today they only had one flight to Detroit and the same is true for tomorrow. Any ideas why the sudden decrease in flying in/out of South Bend?

Huh? DL is operating 5 daily flights from SBN most days of the week, 3x to ATL and one each to MSP and DTW. What are you talking about?

Jeremy

SESGDL wrote:

jmscsc wrote:

Over the past week I’ve noticed a decrease in Delta‘s flying out of South Bend. They have normally had multiple flights a day to each of their hubs but, for example, today they only had one flight to Detroit and the same is true for tomorrow. Any ideas why the sudden decrease in flying in/out of South Bend?

Huh? DL is operating 5 daily flights from SBN most days of the week, 3x to ATL and one each to MSP and DTW. What are you talking about?

Jeremy

DL has always operated multiple flights a day to DTW, not just one. That’s my question. Why the significant decrease?

jmscsc wrote:

SESGDL wrote:

jmscsc wrote:

Over the past week I’ve noticed a decrease in Delta‘s flying out of South Bend. They have normally had multiple flights a day to each of their hubs but, for example, today they only had one flight to Detroit and the same is true for tomorrow. Any ideas why the sudden decrease in flying in/out of South Bend?

Huh? DL is operating 5 daily flights from SBN most days of the week, 3x to ATL and one each to MSP and DTW. What are you talking about?

Jeremy

DL has always operated multiple flights a day to DTW, not just one. That’s my question. Why the significant decrease?

This is happening on many routes out of DTW/MSP, reduction due to crew shortages mostly. ATL has seen reductions as well.

See #570 on the DL network thread, all three airports (DTW/MSP/ATL) are down significantly in daily flights.

Thanks, a320flyer.

Hearing through an internal event in LAX that DL will launch LAX-PPT this winter as well as an MCO-EU destination, likely AMS. Equipment also unknown, but I'd assume 763

jsteeves3 wrote:

Here is some data I found regarding DL's hub operations at ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA, JFK, BOS, SEA, and LAX. Data is broken up by each individual hub.

All flights are based on a random Thursday in July (21st). *NOTICE: These numbers were pulled from about three weeks ago and they are subject to change* All information was conducted by hand!

Information on the docs include:

Number of Total Departures

Number of Departures by Aircraft

Number of Departures to Each City

List of Destinations from Each Hub

Complete List of Aircraft to Each City

Separate Mainline and Express Lists

Hubs Ranked by Departures
Atlanta (ATL)
845
Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
335
Detroit (DTW)
328
Salt Lake City (SLC)
260
New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
254
New York - JFK (JFK)
205
Boston (BOS)
164
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
155
Los Angeles (LAX)
146

Here are the links! Lmk if you have any questions...

Atlanta (ATL)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tob ... sp=sharing

Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14K4 ... sp=sharing

Detroit (DTW)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ZO ... sp=sharing

Salt Lake City (SLC)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guC ... sp=sharing

New York - LaGuardia (LGA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXG ... sp=sharing

New York - JFK (JFK)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnU ... sp=sharing

Boston (BOS)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2T ... sp=sharing

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Los Angeles (LAX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GFb ... sp=sharing

Great stuff, but you have the SEA chart under the LAX heading.

777Mech wrote:

Hearing through an internal event in LAX that DL will launch LAX-PPT this winter

In addition to the already served LAX-PPT by Air France which already is between 3 to 5 weelky (depending of the time of the year) ? Weird.

I could see a lot of that previously-booming regional network from RDU continued to be restored within the next year if the traffic pace continues to boom/rebound like it has. They are bringing back BNA in July and ORD and PHL next November, and I wonder if other long-time routes like BWI/BDL/CMH/CVG/IND are the next ones on the re-instatement list.

nicode wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Hearing through an internal event in LAX that DL will launch LAX-PPT this winter

In addition to the already served LAX-PPT by Air France which already is between 3 to 5 weekly (depending of the time of the year) ? Weird.

Cool if it happens. If this happens, I assume this would most likely be an ex-LATAM A350 route. DL is going to have a lot of A350 lift lying around this winter, and will have several of the ex-LATAM A350s in service without the full standard D1 suites.
Seems like the type of "premium leisure" route that makes sense to target.

nicode wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Hearing through an internal event in LAX that DL will launch LAX-PPT this winter

In addition to the already served LAX-PPT by Air France which already is between 3 to 5 weelky (depending of the time of the year) ? Weird.

Since AF's PPT route is considered a continuation of the CDG-LAX flight, this might indicate a reduction in that route, thus allowing DL to take over the PPT flying. Crew expenses must be pretty high for a flight originating in Paris, and continuing on to Tahiti; does anyone know how many crews this actually requires?