Emirates still has 50 A380s parked.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/slo ... -050422-JM

The Knight had a chance to order more of them... He balked... He wants Airbus to restart production so other airlines will buy them so that he doesn't have an orphaned fleet (hard to service). Can we stop hearing from this guy already?

Emirates will resume London STN flights starting from 1AUG22 (5 weekly initially) ramping up to daily flights from 01SEP22.

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/ ... 1.87003086

Rio De Janeiro and Buenos Aires flights will resume starting from 02NOV22

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/ ... 1.87003086

aeropix wrote:

Western727 wrote:

There's 3 varieties. the basic 340.2 tonnes, a handful of 349.3 tonnes, and the ULR fleet at 351.5 tonnes (777,000 lbs).

The overflight and landing fees are cheaper for the lighter planes, so it makes sense to have a mixed fleet with only a fraction dedicated to the relatively few ULR routes.

Thanks - that sounds about right.

xwb777 wrote:

Rio De Janeiro and Buenos Aires flights will resume starting from 02NOV22

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/ ... 1.87003086

Initially 4x w and daily from 01FEB23, with 77W equipment

EK247 DXB 08:05 GIG 15:25-17:10 EZE 20:40 77W
EK248 EZE 22:20 GIG 01:10-02:55+1 DXB 23:35 77W

According to La Nación of Buenos Aires, Qatar would be announcing the resumption of its passenger ops at EZE soon. Unlike EK, QR never discontinued its cargo ops at EZE during the pandemic.

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/economia/vi ... d06042022/

Some main points from Adel AlRedha’s recent interview (in Arabic)

- The airline is planning to launch new destinations but its main focus in the short term to increase flights to pre-pandemic levels.

- The airline is in advanced discussions regarding the B777X. The airline is not expecting to receive the plane in the next two years.

- The airine is currently choosing its onboard hard product on the A350 and is in discussions with Airbus to receive the jet as soon as possible.

- System wide loadfactor stands at 73% and future reservations figures are promising.

- The main challenge facing the airline is crew shortage.

- some airports in the network are experiencing staffing issues which is stopping the airline from increasing flights.

Link: https://www.emaratalyoum.com/business/l ... PageLayout

xwb777 wrote:

Some main points from Adel AlRedha’s recent interview (in Arabic)

- The airline is planning to launch new destinations but its main focus in the short term to increase flights to pre-pandemic levels.

- The airline is in advanced discussions regarding the B777X. The airline is not expecting to receive the plane in the next two years.

- The airine is currently choosing its onboard hard product on the A350 and is in discussions with Airbus to receive the jet as soon as possible.

- System wide loadfactor stands at 73% and future reservations figures are promising.

- The main challenge facing the airline is crew shortage.

- some airports in the network are experiencing staffing issues which is stopping the airline from increasing flights.

Link: https://www.emaratalyoum.com/business/l ... PageLayout

Looks like the 350s may come in before the 77Xs...

So all STCs moaning on the B777Xs were genuine frustration with Boeing for when EKs orders were to begin delivery.

He has a valid point and frustration notwithstanding, he is caught between a rock and a hard place, coz EK wants and needs the B779s. The B787 order seems in the same boat.

Nice placement if Airbus could ressurect the A330NEO at EK. Stranger thing have happened.

Rgds

I have forgotten the answer to this but could someone remind me what 380 - A6-EUM has different from the rest of the 380 fleet at EK. It has always stayed on the same routes either NCE/LHR/AMS more or less for the last few years and this was for a reason. Thanks for any info.

qantas330 wrote:

I have forgotten the answer to this but could someone remind me what 380 - A6-EUM has different from the rest of the 380 fleet at EK. It has always stayed on the same routes either NCE/LHR/AMS more or less for the last few years and this was for a reason. Thanks for any info.

-EUM was the first EK A388 optioned with the Trent 970 (previously delivered aircraft are all GP7270/GP7072 powered).
Like all other EK A388 configured 14F/76J/429Y (and 14F/76J/427Y) this aircraft does not have a crew-rest and is therefore not utilized on ULR sectors (510t MTOW versus the 569t/575t MTOW of the ULR aircraft).

I really don't understand why Emirates has a need for new planes anytime soon. It seems like they just want some new deliveries for PR. Really, what do they even need new planes for? Why did Emirates retire around 2 dozen 777's and 3 A380's, just to replace them with expensive versions of the same plane? I get that they are around 15 years old, which is old by EK Standards, but barely half way though the aircraft's lifespan. It would make sense if these planes were replaced with more fuel efficient, modern planes that would give fuel savings to EK, and increase passenger comfort, but to replace these aircraft with the SAME EXACT aircraft doesn't do any of this, while bringing on huge cost to EK. Instead, they could retrofit their older planes to the exact same interior as the new ones for probably 1/10th the price, and there would be no difference at all, except for the aircraft age on paper, which I doubt anybody except for Avgeeks would notice. Now, when there are more modern and fuel efficient planes in the market such as the 777-9, then it makes to start replacing their fleet. 2024-2025 seems like a good time, where the first deliveries of 77W's reach 20 years, to start to replace them with modern aircraft, (where the passenger numbers go back to normal and capex spending can increase) rather than replace 12 year old 77W's with brand new 77W's. I am just really confused on why they do this, so if somebody could explain, that would be appreciated.

Also, I don't understand why Emirates and Etihad are so hesitant to do retrofits. As far as I can remember, the only retrofit they have done is the 77L 3-class to 2-class conversion. As far as the A380 goes, it's my favorite plane in the sky, and Emirates A380's are pure amazing! Sadly I don't think anything would be able to replace the comfort, but it is what it is. I also don't understand why Emirates went for the 789 and A359, when I think it makes more sense for EK to have a fleet of around 250 779/A35K in next 10-15 years, as EK is all about that capacity and hub and spoke model.

Can't wait for the future of EK!

RMTAviation wrote:

I really don't understand why Emirates has a need for new planes anytime soon. It seems like they just want some new deliveries for PR. Really, what do they even need new planes for? Why did Emirates retire around 2 dozen 777's and 3 A380's, just to replace them with expensive versions of the same plane? I get that they are around 15 years old, which is old by EK Standards, but barely half way though the aircraft's lifespan. It would make sense if these planes were replaced with more fuel efficient, modern planes that would give fuel savings to EK, and increase passenger comfort, but to replace these aircraft with the SAME EXACT aircraft doesn't do any of this, while bringing on huge cost to EK. Instead, they could retrofit their older planes to the exact same interior as the new ones for probably 1/10th the price, and there would be no difference at all, except for the aircraft age on paper, which I doubt anybody except for Avgeeks would notice. Now, when there are more modern and fuel efficient planes in the market such as the 777-9, then it makes to start replacing their fleet. 2024-2025 seems like a good time, where the first deliveries of 77W's reach 20 years, to start to replace them with modern aircraft, (where the passenger numbers go back to normal and capex spending can increase) rather than replace 12 year old 77W's with brand new 77W's. I am just really confused on why they do this, so if somebody could explain, that would be appreciated.

Also, I don't understand why Emirates and Etihad are so hesitant to do retrofits. As far as I can remember, the only retrofit they have done is the 77L 3-class to 2-class conversion. As far as the A380 goes, it's my favorite plane in the sky, and Emirates A380's are pure amazing! Sadly I don't think anything would be able to replace the comfort, but it is what it is. I also don't understand why Emirates went for the 789 and A359, when I think it makes more sense for EK to have a fleet of around 250 779/A35K in next 10-15 years, as EK is all about that capacity and hub and spoke model.

Can't wait for the future of EK!

I think some of the aircraft that leaves EK are leased and at the end of there lease terms. EK could buy those aircraft but for what? 60 million plus renovating each one is like 30 million. Highly doubt ek has that money ready to blow. So they just take new leased delivery and pay 1.2 million a month and save on massive cost.

randomdude83 wrote:

RMTAviation wrote:

I really don't understand why Emirates has a need for new planes anytime soon. It seems like they just want some new deliveries for PR. Really, what do they even need new planes for? Why did Emirates retire around 2 dozen 777's and 3 A380's, just to replace them with expensive versions of the same plane? I get that they are around 15 years old, which is old by EK Standards, but barely half way though the aircraft's lifespan. It would make sense if these planes were replaced with more fuel efficient, modern planes that would give fuel savings to EK, and increase passenger comfort, but to replace these aircraft with the SAME EXACT aircraft doesn't do any of this, while bringing on huge cost to EK. Instead, they could retrofit their older planes to the exact same interior as the new ones for probably 1/10th the price, and there would be no difference at all, except for the aircraft age on paper, which I doubt anybody except for Avgeeks would notice. Now, when there are more modern and fuel efficient planes in the market such as the 777-9, then it makes to start replacing their fleet. 2024-2025 seems like a good time, where the first deliveries of 77W's reach 20 years, to start to replace them with modern aircraft, (where the passenger numbers go back to normal and capex spending can increase) rather than replace 12 year old 77W's with brand new 77W's. I am just really confused on why they do this, so if somebody could explain, that would be appreciated.

Also, I don't understand why Emirates and Etihad are so hesitant to do retrofits. As far as I can remember, the only retrofit they have done is the 77L 3-class to 2-class conversion. As far as the A380 goes, it's my favorite plane in the sky, and Emirates A380's are pure amazing! Sadly I don't think anything would be able to replace the comfort, but it is what it is. I also don't understand why Emirates went for the 789 and A359, when I think it makes more sense for EK to have a fleet of around 250 779/A35K in next 10-15 years, as EK is all about that capacity and hub and spoke model.

Can't wait for the future of EK!

I think some of the aircraft that leaves EK are leased and at the end of there lease terms. EK could buy those aircraft but for what? 60 million plus renovating each one is like 30 million. Highly doubt ek has that money ready to blow. So they just take new leased delivery and pay 1.2 million a month and save on massive cost.

Thank you for the info, although this makes me more curious. As it seems that most 777/A330's these days sit in storage for quite a while, or even get scrapped after their initial 10/15/20 year leases ended, wouldn't it be beneficial for both the airline and the leasing company, to have the aircraft to continue to be leased at a discounted price? Instead of 1.2 Million, say if the airline and leasing company were able to negotiate on $600-800k a month lease on these airplanes, it would be beneficial for the airline, which would have to pay less than a new unit, and the leasing company would get some revenue rather than putting the plane in storage and/or be scrapped.

My suggestion for EK:

Proposed 777-10 stretch replaces the A380.
777-9 and A350-1000 replaces the 777-300ER. EK should replace their 77Ws with a fleet of 115 779s and 35 A35Ks. The 779 can do the long haul and ultra-long haul routes. While A35K can do the medium-to-short haul routes.
787-9 and A350-900 replaces the 777-200LR and can be used to open up new routes assuming that the 777-8 will become a freighter only variant.

UA857 wrote:

My suggestion for EK:

Proposed 777-10 stretch replaces the A380.
777-9 and A350-1000 replaces the 777-300ER. EK should replace their 77Ws with a fleet of 115 779s and 35 A35Ks. The 779 can do the long haul and ultra-long haul routes. While A35K can do the medium-to-short haul routes.
787-9 and A350-900 replaces the 777-200LR and can be used to open up new routes assuming that the 777-8 will become a freighter only variant.

This is, quite simply, incompatible with EK's business model.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

Emirates still has 50 A380s parked.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/slo ... -050422-JM

The Knight had a chance to order more of them... He balked... He wants Airbus to restart production so other airlines will buy them so that he doesn't have an orphaned fleet (hard to service). Can we stop hearing from this guy already?

Has production infrastructure (for want of better term) been scrapped completely so it cannot be restarted?

cpd wrote:

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

Emirates still has 50 A380s parked.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/slo ... -050422-JM

The Knight had a chance to order more of them... He balked... He wants Airbus to restart production so other airlines will buy them so that he doesn't have an orphaned fleet (hard to service). Can we stop hearing from this guy already?

Has production infrastructure (for want of better term) been scrapped completely so it cannot be restarted?

Suppliers have dissipated, that's for sure. Besides all the TV-worthy stuff (like convoys, transporting major components through villages, where all traffic stops, while these giant things slowly are driven by), there's plenty of other things not happening anymore.
For example, where would the engines come from?
Airbus itself must have repurposed a lot of production facilities already.

Plus, into what market would you sell new-builds? Into the same market that is not interested in existing airframes?

UA857 wrote:

My suggestion for EK:

Proposed 777-10 stretch replaces the A380.
777-9 and A350-1000 replaces the 777-300ER. EK should replace their 77Ws with a fleet of 115 779s and 35 A35Ks. The 779 can do the long haul and ultra-long haul routes. While A35K can do the medium-to-short haul routes.
787-9 and A350-900 replaces the 777-200LR and can be used to open up new routes assuming that the 777-8 will become a freighter only variant.

Emirates are going to have to bank on the 779 and A35K. There is no way EK's new largest aircraft (if 779 is canceled and A359 is their biggest) will be smaller than their current smallest aircraft. Even the 779 and A35K are very small compared to EK's current capacity, EK would have probably ordered the A380neo if it exited.

Andreas Spaeth on Twitter: “Sir Tim Clark: No B777X cancellation yet. But our patience is indefinite”

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... _fcXNas4bA

xwb777 wrote:

Andreas Spaeth on Twitter: “Sir Tim Clark: No B777X cancellation yet. But our patience is indefinite”

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... _fcXNas4bA

Actually its "yet, but our patience is not indefinite" (very different meaning). Honestly this is a pretty empty threat. Unless EK is committing to holding onto the A380s much longer than they normally do, the 777X is their only option for a VLA replacement - can while they can change their business model to some extent (more frequencies, smaller planes), they can't really shift it much on the slot-restricted airports that are their bread and butter.

EChid wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

Andreas Spaeth on Twitter: “Sir Tim Clark: No B777X cancellation yet. But our patience is indefinite”

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... _fcXNas4bA

Actually its "yet, but our patience is not indefinite" (very different meaning). Honestly this is a pretty empty threat. Unless EK is committing to holding onto the A380s much longer than they normally do, the 777X is their only option for a VLA replacement - can while they can change their business model to some extent (more frequencies, smaller planes), they can't really shift it much on the slot-restricted airports that are their bread and butter.

Unless they expect the travel to actually contract into the years coming (talk of recession is already here), and are ready to forego their current "chase the volumes" MO.
Plus, lessors are trapped, and will be trying to place A380's very competitively -- and where else, but at Emirates?

EChid wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

Andreas Spaeth on Twitter: “Sir Tim Clark: No B777X cancellation yet. But our patience is indefinite”

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... _fcXNas4bA

Actually its "yet, but our patience is not indefinite" (very different meaning). Honestly this is a pretty empty threat. Unless EK is committing to holding onto the A380s much longer than they normally do, the 777X is their only option for a VLA replacement - can while they can change their business model to some extent (more frequencies, smaller planes), they can't really shift it much on the slot-restricted airports that are their bread and butter.

Pretty empty threat? Comming from EK who cancelled 70 A350 once or have already converted 35 777-X into 787, I would say we all know the gun is loaded.
And no, the 777-9 is not the only option for a VLA replacement. There is nothing the size of an A380 on the market anymore. Whatever combination of widebody twins you choose to replace it, you will need between 3 and 4 frames to do the job of 2 A380.

-EK will be returning too 100% full capacity by 2023 up from the current 70% level.

-The carrier will be investing $1.3bn on retrofitting some existing A380s and B777s as they are going to stay for a longer period.

- The airline is currently operating 70 A380. The number will increase to 85 by Winter 2022/2023.

Source: https://www-thenationalnews-com.cdn.amp ... =amp&d=233

mig17 wrote:

Pretty empty threat? Comming from EK who cancelled 70 A350 once or have already converted 35 777-X into 787, I would say we all know the gun is loaded.
And no, the 777-9 is not the only option for a VLA replacement. There is nothing the size of an A380 on the market anymore. Whatever combination of widebody twins you choose to replace it, you will need between 3 and 4 frames to do the job of 2 A380.

I'm not sure the best way to phrase it would be, but I don't see Emirates making a move to cancel their 777X order. A significant (or complete) cancellation of Emirates' order would likely tank the entire program and make it impossible for Boeing to justify to their shareholders the continued investment in a plane with no foreseeable viable market. Tim Clark might be upset with Boeing, but I don't see him destroying Emirates' relationship with Boeing.

randomdude83 wrote:

RMTAviation wrote:

I really don't understand why Emirates has a need for new planes anytime soon. It seems like they just want some new deliveries for PR. Really, what do they even need new planes for? Why did Emirates retire around 2 dozen 777's and 3 A380's, just to replace them with expensive versions of the same plane? I get that they are around 15 years old, which is old by EK Standards, but barely half way though the aircraft's lifespan. It would make sense if these planes were replaced with more fuel efficient, modern planes that would give fuel savings to EK, and increase passenger comfort, but to replace these aircraft with the SAME EXACT aircraft doesn't do any of this, while bringing on huge cost to EK. Instead, they could retrofit their older planes to the exact same interior as the new ones for probably 1/10th the price, and there would be no difference at all, except for the aircraft age on paper, which I doubt anybody except for Avgeeks would notice. Now, when there are more modern and fuel efficient planes in the market such as the 777-9, then it makes to start replacing their fleet. 2024-2025 seems like a good time, where the first deliveries of 77W's reach 20 years, to start to replace them with modern aircraft, (where the passenger numbers go back to normal and capex spending can increase) rather than replace 12 year old 77W's with brand new 77W's. I am just really confused on why they do this, so if somebody could explain, that would be appreciated.

Also, I don't understand why Emirates and Etihad are so hesitant to do retrofits. As far as I can remember, the only retrofit they have done is the 77L 3-class to 2-class conversion. As far as the A380 goes, it's my favorite plane in the sky, and Emirates A380's are pure amazing! Sadly I don't think anything would be able to replace the comfort, but it is what it is. I also don't understand why Emirates went for the 789 and A359, when I think it makes more sense for EK to have a fleet of around 250 779/A35K in next 10-15 years, as EK is all about that capacity and hub and spoke model.

Can't wait for the future of EK!

I think some of the aircraft that leaves EK are leased and at the end of there lease terms. EK could buy those aircraft but for what? 60 million plus renovating each one is like 30 million. Highly doubt ek has that money ready to blow. So they just take new leased delivery and pay 1.2 million a month and save on massive cost.

These aren’t cars. Airlines extend the leases, not buy the plane after a lease. So, no, they don’t have to take new planes. Those 77Ws are not in huge demand so EK could negotiate favorable terms. An extended lease on a 77W is going to be far cheaper than a new aircraft lease.

jbs2886 wrote:

randomdude83 wrote:

RMTAviation wrote:

I really don't understand why Emirates has a need for new planes anytime soon. It seems like they just want some new deliveries for PR. Really, what do they even need new planes for? Why did Emirates retire around 2 dozen 777's and 3 A380's, just to replace them with expensive versions of the same plane? I get that they are around 15 years old, which is old by EK Standards, but barely half way though the aircraft's lifespan. It would make sense if these planes were replaced with more fuel efficient, modern planes that would give fuel savings to EK, and increase passenger comfort, but to replace these aircraft with the SAME EXACT aircraft doesn't do any of this, while bringing on huge cost to EK. Instead, they could retrofit their older planes to the exact same interior as the new ones for probably 1/10th the price, and there would be no difference at all, except for the aircraft age on paper, which I doubt anybody except for Avgeeks would notice. Now, when there are more modern and fuel efficient planes in the market such as the 777-9, then it makes to start replacing their fleet. 2024-2025 seems like a good time, where the first deliveries of 77W's reach 20 years, to start to replace them with modern aircraft, (where the passenger numbers go back to normal and capex spending can increase) rather than replace 12 year old 77W's with brand new 77W's. I am just really confused on why they do this, so if somebody could explain, that would be appreciated.

Also, I don't understand why Emirates and Etihad are so hesitant to do retrofits. As far as I can remember, the only retrofit they have done is the 77L 3-class to 2-class conversion. As far as the A380 goes, it's my favorite plane in the sky, and Emirates A380's are pure amazing! Sadly I don't think anything would be able to replace the comfort, but it is what it is. I also don't understand why Emirates went for the 789 and A359, when I think it makes more sense for EK to have a fleet of around 250 779/A35K in next 10-15 years, as EK is all about that capacity and hub and spoke model.

Can't wait for the future of EK!

I think some of the aircraft that leaves EK are leased and at the end of there lease terms. EK could buy those aircraft but for what? 60 million plus renovating each one is like 30 million. Highly doubt ek has that money ready to blow. So they just take new leased delivery and pay 1.2 million a month and save on massive cost.

These aren’t cars. Airlines extend the leases, not buy the plane after a lease. So, no, they don’t have to take new planes. Those 77Ws are not in huge demand so EK could negotiate favorable terms. An extended lease on a 77W is going to be far cheaper than a new aircraft lease.

I think by the time they negotiate a new lease term that is maybe 75% of the original cost, then add the renovation 30 million price on it and the expense D check that will be due for them...the margin between that and a brand new one is probably not that large to justify it.

randomdude83 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

randomdude83 wrote:

I think some of the aircraft that leaves EK are leased and at the end of there lease terms. EK could buy those aircraft but for what? 60 million plus renovating each one is like 30 million. Highly doubt ek has that money ready to blow. So they just take new leased delivery and pay 1.2 million a month and save on massive cost.

These aren’t cars. Airlines extend the leases, not buy the plane after a lease. So, no, they don’t have to take new planes. Those 77Ws are not in huge demand so EK could negotiate favorable terms. An extended lease on a 77W is going to be far cheaper than a new aircraft lease.

I think by the time they negotiate a new lease term that is maybe 75% of the original cost, then add the renovation 30 million price on it and the expense D check that will be due for them...the margin between that and a brand new one is probably not that large to justify it.

75% of original cost after 12 years? Absolutely not. EK also doesn’t have to “renovate” (refurbish) at the beginning of a new lease term. Sorry, but your math and premise are way off. None of this is how finances work.

Edit to add even if a new interior was outfitted, EK will have a similar expense to outfit an entirely new aircraft.

jbs2886 wrote:

randomdude83 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

These aren’t cars. Airlines extend the leases, not buy the plane after a lease. So, no, they don’t have to take new planes. Those 77Ws are not in huge demand so EK could negotiate favorable terms. An extended lease on a 77W is going to be far cheaper than a new aircraft lease.

I think by the time they negotiate a new lease term that is maybe 75% of the original cost, then add the renovation 30 million price on it and the expense D check that will be due for them...the margin between that and a brand new one is probably not that large to justify it.

75% of original cost after 12 years? Absolutely not. EK also doesn’t have to “renovate” (refurbish) at the beginning of a new lease term. Sorry, but your math and premise are way off. None of this is how finances work.

Edit to add even if a new interior was outfitted, EK will have a similar expense to outfit an entirely new aircraft.

refitting older aircraft is more expensive than newer ones. Wiring alone and updating systems to the latest technology... not cheap. it cost EK some $150 million to renovate 10 77L FYI.

This isn't Delta airline that flies 767 all the way to their graves model, EK renovated how airlines should be and that high standard is still there.

The 77W has a future in converted fighters so i'm not sure the leasing companies will cut EK that good of a deal. Even if EK ends up paying half of what they used to pay or even lower, the leasing company will lock EK into something super long the lower the cost for sure and EK has to refurbish and run expensive D checks if they expect to have a competitive product for years to come.

Also extending leases is bad for Boeing and Airbus, now EK don't need those new birds anytime soon and for a long long time. you don't think they'll make sweet offers against the leasing companies offers?

You also do not understand middle eastern logic, high egos and show off the latest style even if its costly.

EDIT: i missed the post by xwb777 that says they are moving ahead with renovating older 77W and keeping them longer and spending 1.3 billion. exactly what they should do but my argument is that they could have saved a lot more had Boeing delivered the 779 on time.

randomdude83 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

randomdude83 wrote:

I think by the time they negotiate a new lease term that is maybe 75% of the original cost, then add the renovation 30 million price on it and the expense D check that will be due for them...the margin between that and a brand new one is probably not that large to justify it.

75% of original cost after 12 years? Absolutely not. EK also doesn’t have to “renovate” (refurbish) at the beginning of a new lease term. Sorry, but your math and premise are way off. None of this is how finances work.

Edit to add even if a new interior was outfitted, EK will have a similar expense to outfit an entirely new aircraft.

refitting older aircraft is more expensive than newer ones. Wiring alone and updating systems to the latest technology... not cheap. it cost EK some $150 million to renovate 10 77L FYI.

This isn't Delta airline that flies 767 all the way to their graves model, EK renovated how airlines should be and that high standard is still there.

The 77W has a future in converted fighters so i'm not sure the leasing companies will cut EK that good of a deal. Even if EK ends up paying half of what they used to pay or even lower, the leasing company will lock EK into something super long the lower the cost for sure and EK has to refurbish and run expensive D checks if they expect to have a competitive product for years to come.

Also extending leases is bad for Boeing and Airbus, now EK don't need those new birds anytime soon and for a long long time. you don't think they'll make sweet offers against the leasing companies offers?

You also do not understand middle eastern logic, high egos and show off the latest style even if its costly.

EDIT: i missed the post by xwb777 that says they are moving ahead with renovating older 77W and keeping them longer and spending 1.3 billion. exactly what they should do but my argument is that they could have saved a lot more had Boeing delivered the 779 on time.

Wow this is all over the place and entirely inconsistent and contradicts itself. You argue ME style is expensive new planes, but then that EK would save money by buying $300M+ aircraft instead of cheap leases. You also say extending leases on aircraft is bad for Boeing and Airbus, which is wholly false. Boeing and Airbus rely on their products being long-term investments and the lessors/investors being able to market the planes. None of this is how finances of long-term capital assets works.

jbs2886 wrote:

randomdude83 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

75% of original cost after 12 years? Absolutely not. EK also doesn’t have to “renovate” (refurbish) at the beginning of a new lease term. Sorry, but your math and premise are way off. None of this is how finances work.

Edit to add even if a new interior was outfitted, EK will have a similar expense to outfit an entirely new aircraft.

refitting older aircraft is more expensive than newer ones. Wiring alone and updating systems to the latest technology... not cheap. it cost EK some $150 million to renovate 10 77L FYI.

This isn't Delta airline that flies 767 all the way to their graves model, EK renovated how airlines should be and that high standard is still there.

The 77W has a future in converted fighters so i'm not sure the leasing companies will cut EK that good of a deal. Even if EK ends up paying half of what they used to pay or even lower, the leasing company will lock EK into something super long the lower the cost for sure and EK has to refurbish and run expensive D checks if they expect to have a competitive product for years to come.

Also extending leases is bad for Boeing and Airbus, now EK don't need those new birds anytime soon and for a long long time. you don't think they'll make sweet offers against the leasing companies offers?

You also do not understand middle eastern logic, high egos and show off the latest style even if its costly.

EDIT: i missed the post by xwb777 that says they are moving ahead with renovating older 77W and keeping them longer and spending 1.3 billion. exactly what they should do but my argument is that they could have saved a lot more had Boeing delivered the 779 on time.

Wow this is all over the place and entirely inconsistent and contradicts itself. You argue ME style is expensive new planes, but then that EK would save money by buying $300M+ aircraft instead of cheap leases. You also say extending leases on aircraft is bad for Boeing and Airbus, which is wholly false. Boeing and Airbus rely on their products being long-term investments and the lessors/investors being able to market the planes. None of this is how finances of long-term capital assets works.

I'm not all over, EK did exactly what I said even before i read the article, i said if they extended leases, they'd have to spend on interior and checks , not sit on an aircraft with old interior like you suggested they could do after extending leases which they would never do and the article shows they won't. and that is more costly to do for them, not Cheaper versus acquiring newer leases.

To clarify my point even further about middle east ego, i meant they needed the latest interior product to be competitive and to show that off to the market. I didn't mean they needed the latest flying aircraft just for the sake of the aircraft, thats not were the benefit is of Leasing (not purchasing) brand new aircraft every 12 years.

let me sum things up one last time, had the 779 been delivered on time, they would have received the latest aircraft INCLUDING, latest interior, off load older 12/15 year old aircraft without needing to pay for d checks or renovation, paid the usual 1.2 million a month lease (not 300m, they're leasing all of these aircraft), spent on interior product one time for the new aircraft and not double the amount to bring older aircraft up to date and spend the same money on the upcoming new aircraft in three years.

I would not be surprised to see a 35k order soon, say 30, coupled to a formal deferment of 779s

randomdude83 wrote:

let me sum things up one last time, had the 779 been delivered on time, they would have received the latest aircraft INCLUDING, latest interior, off load older 12/15 year old aircraft without needing to pay for d checks or renovation, paid the usual 1.2 million a month lease (not 300m, they're leasing all of these aircraft), spent on interior product one time for the new aircraft and not double the amount to bring older aircraft up to date and spend the same money on the upcoming new aircraft in three years.

At end of lease, the lessee pays End of Lease (EoL) costs. A significant EoL cost is a pro rata payment in respect to airframe and engine checks. Leases terminating before a check, do not mean the lessee has avoided the cost. In fact most lessees with MX and appropriate accreditation, or massive buying power, prefer to arrange the work themselves, rather than be a price taker of the lessor's negotiating skills. Likewise, the lessee will meet the cost of an external repaint and interior refurbishment.

Returning the aircraft, and leasing a new, doesn't mean the lessee escapes EoL costs on the original aircraft, though the lessor may forgive a proportion of EoL's as a 'carrot' to execute the new lease.

Most lease agreements include rollover (extension) clauses. Monthly lease rates for an extension would be 50% or less, than for the original term. EoL costs would be discounted, or completely forgiven if the lease is extended far enough into the future.

No-one wants a WB stored, with engines on maintenance / PBTH plans still racking up monthly charges, so a very strong incentive to extend a lease. Even ad hoc 'on demand' hourly deals to keep aircraft out of storage, well maintained, in use, ready for possible sale or part out in the future.

UA857 wrote:

My suggestion for EK:

Proposed 777-10 stretch replaces the A380.
777-9 and A350-1000 replaces the 777-300ER. EK should replace their 77Ws with a fleet of 115 779s and 35 A35Ks. The 779 can do the long haul and ultra-long haul routes. While A35K can do the medium-to-short haul routes.
787-9 and A350-900 replaces the 777-200LR and can be used to open up new routes assuming that the 777-8 will become a freighter only variant.

Why would they not use the A350-1000 for ULH when it's the plane with the most range in the lineup?

Qantas744er wrote:

qantas330 wrote:

I have forgotten the answer to this but could someone remind me what 380 - A6-EUM has different from the rest of the 380 fleet at EK. It has always stayed on the same routes either NCE/LHR/AMS more or less for the last few years and this was for a reason. Thanks for any info.

-EUM was the first EK A388 optioned with the Trent 970 (previously delivered aircraft are all GP7270/GP7072 powered).
Like all other EK A388 configured 14F/76J/429Y (and 14F/76J/427Y) this aircraft does not have a crew-rest and is therefore not utilized on ULR sectors (510t MTOW versus the 569t/575t MTOW of the ULR aircraft).

Thanks for the info.

Qantas744er wrote:

qantas330 wrote:

I have forgotten the answer to this but could someone remind me what 380 - A6-EUM has different from the rest of the 380 fleet at EK. It has always stayed on the same routes either NCE/LHR/AMS more or less for the last few years and this was for a reason. Thanks for any info.

-EUM was the first EK A388 optioned with the Trent 970 (previously delivered aircraft are all GP7270/GP7072 powered).
Like all other EK A388 configured 14F/76J/429Y (and 14F/76J/427Y) this aircraft does not have a crew-rest and is therefore not utilized on ULR sectors (510t MTOW versus the 569t/575t MTOW of the ULR aircraft).

Thanks - I’ve flown on this EUM out of Nice, didn’t realise it was different.

Emirates has sent the first B77L to storage at DWC.

xwb777 wrote:

Emirates has sent the first B77L to storage at DWC.

"first" seems to suggest that their 10 77Ls weren't stored during the pandemic. Is this the case?

Anybody know what happened to EK207/208 JFK A380 rotation and the EK223/224 EWR 77W rotation? Will either of these every make a return at some point? Why or why not?

Also, will the EK retrofit program update the IFE in Economy as well?

Western727 wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

Emirates has sent the first B77L to storage at DWC.

"first" seems to suggest that their 10 77Ls weren't stored during the pandemic. Is this the case?

A6-EWA the "first" 77L is currently doing DXB-DFW.

AirIndia wrote:

Western727 wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

Emirates has sent the first B77L to storage at DWC.

"first" seems to suggest that their 10 77Ls weren't stored during the pandemic. Is this the case?

A6-EWA the "first" 77L is currently doing DXB-DFW.

Understood. I worded my reply in a way that wasn't clear.

I was wondering if the 77Ls had NOT been grounded during COVID, which is what I suspect. Over 100 of their 380s and many dozens of their 77Ws were grounded in the early COVID days. Because the 77Ls are smaller, yet capable of flying any of their routes (given that they're the more-capable LRs and not ERs)...did all of them continue flying throughout the early days of the pandemic?

This is what I was getting at after xwb777's comment about "Emirates has sent the first B77L to storage" meaning the first 77L to be parked, not specifically aircraft A6-EWA which as you pointed out was the first 77L that was delivered to EK.

Western727 wrote:

AirIndia wrote:

Western727 wrote:

"first" seems to suggest that their 10 77Ls weren't stored during the pandemic. Is this the case?

A6-EWA the "first" 77L is currently doing DXB-DFW.

Understood. I worded my reply in a way that wasn't clear.

I was wondering if the 77Ls had NOT been grounded during COVID, which is what I suspect. Over 100 of their 380s and many dozens of their 77Ws were grounded in the early COVID days. Because the 77Ls are smaller, yet capable of flying any of their routes (given that they're the more-capable LRs and not ERs)...did all of them continue flying throughout the early days of the pandemic?

This is what I was getting at after xwb777's comment about "Emirates has sent the first B77L to storage" meaning the first 77L to be parked, not specifically aircraft A6-EWA which as you pointed out was the first 77L that was delivered to EK.

Thanks for explaining. In that case, outside of the complete shut down for a short period (March 25 - April 6, 2020) during which time all operations were halted, the 777s started returning to service quickly. So yes the 77Ls were grounded as part of the overall pax fleet grounding, however they were not sent for extended storage...

What I have meant in my previous post is that Emirates has sent one aircraft from its B77L fleet to storage.

At the sidelines of the Arabian Travel Market which is currently being held in Dubai, Emirates CCO Adel Al Redha, has stated that Emirates will receive its first A350 in August 2024 and the first B779 in 2025.

xwb777 wrote:

At the sidelines of the Arabian Travel Market which is currently being held in Dubai, Emirates CCO Adel Al Redha, has stated that Emirates will receive its first A350 in August 2024 and the first B779 in 2025.

I bet some A350-900 orders will be converted / added to A350-1000s, before the first A350 joins EK.


https://community.infiniteflight.com/u/itzehs/summary

Providing the link back:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-05-11/

Quite interesting that the report says it’s delayed for more than a year, but there doesn’t seem to have an A350 delay.

HKAusFlyer wrote:

Providing the link back:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-05-11/

Quite interesting that the report says it’s delayed for more than a year, but there doesn’t seem to have an A350 delay.

Could be that whatever assurances EK wants about the paint stuff will delay the timeline of those frames (especially if an actual change to the frames is needed, OR they simply want to wait for the trial to conclude).

Three years with no EK New deliveries? How will they survive?

The Emirates Group has today announced an annual loss of loss of AED 3.8 billion (US$ 1 Biliion) for the financial year 2021-2022.

The EK Group revenue has reached US$ 18.1 billion, an increase of 86%.


Emirates Airline reports a loss of AED 3.9 billion (US$ 1.1 billion) compared with AED 20.3 billion (US$ 5.5 billion) loss in the previous year

The airline’s revenue has increased by 91% to AED 59.2 billion (US$ 16.1 billion).

Dnata reports a profit of US$ 30 million, up from US$ 496 million loss.


Overall good performance by the group. Pax and cargo numbers are on the rise.

More can be found at: https://c.ekstatic.net/ecl/documents/an ... 1-2022.pdf

page 7 of the annual report shows that EK (airline) did not even cover Operating Cash costs

I think EK can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I have flown them recently in C and Y and it was the usual very good product.
Best wishes to them for a full recovery this year.