Phosphorus wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

Cardude2 wrote:

9 Korean air aircraft are soon to be on the market

What’s your source for this factual assertion?

Korean Air said "retirement in 2030", AFAIR.
Whether that's "soon" -- depends on how you look at it.

Fair I forgot about that, but nearly a decade hardly seems “soon.”

catdaddy63 wrote:

Kalitta has purchased the former VH-OEJ ex QF "Wunala Dreaming" now registered N329ZA. Stored at MZJ, withdrawn from use 3/20 and it's an ER bird just under 19 years old. Any chance this will be converted or just a parts donor?

Nope, I'm not making any prognostications on this one.

Does it have engines though?

catdaddy63 wrote:

Kalitta has purchased the former VH-OEJ ex QF "Wunala Dreaming" now registered N329ZA. Stored at MZJ, withdrawn from use 3/20 and it's an ER bird just under 19 years old. Any chance this will be converted or just a parts donor?

I bet it is for parts. A few years ago the two 744s barely used by Japan as their Air Force Ones were bargain sold to Cargojet for their eight low time engines for their 767 fleet,. I also see that Kalitta is all 747F and no converted Queens. I think any 744s that are lower time and still stored won't ever be converted.

aristoenigma wrote:

catdaddy63 wrote:

Kalitta has purchased the former VH-OEJ ex QF "Wunala Dreaming" now registered N329ZA. Stored at MZJ, withdrawn from use 3/20 and it's an ER bird just under 19 years old. Any chance this will be converted or just a parts donor?

I bet it is for parts. A few years ago the two 744s barely used by Japan as their Air Force Ones were bargain sold to Cargojet for their eight low time engines for their 767 fleet,. I also see that Kalitta is all 747F and no converted Queens. I think any 744s that are lower time and still stored won't ever be converted.

Kalitta most definitely has converted 747's

Yes you are right they have quite a few converted 747s. My bad. About ten BCFs all converted ten or so years ago. Still don't think Kalitta will convert the stored 744 they just bought.

Phosphorus wrote:

aristoenigma wrote:

Yes you are right they have quite a few converted 747s. My bad. About ten BCFs all converted ten or so years ago. Still don't think Kalitta will convert the stored 744 they just bought.

Also, who would do the conversion?
AFAIR it was IAI and Boeing who did those.
Neither has done one for what? Years? A Decade?

I think 2 Asiana 747-400s were converted at IAI in 2017 but that was it. It's probably been even longer since boeing did conversions themselves.

N570B Boeing 747-4B5(BCF) which is at HHN since last year will receive a gear change
but due to lack of manpower (haitec) it will take while. Still intended for Aerotranscargo.

On the other hand ER-BBB arrived at HHN a few weeks ago and local insiders say it is returned to lessor
and intended for a new start up.

I have been there yesterday to shoot N936CA in brilliant morning light.
lessor

Boeing officially closed down the 747 BCF line in 2016 or thereabouts. IAIs BDSF line in theoretically still open, but it seems extremely unlikely at this point that any more frames will get converted.
It would be interesting though to hear what the difference in acquisition + conversion cost would be for a decent B744 compared to a B77W.

Does anybody know what is happening with Longtail aviation? I have not seen any flight over the past weeks. One 747 [VP-BWM] is at STN airport and the the BWL at Maastricht airport... BWT transferring to Air Atlanta Icelandic...

tofen wrote:

Boeing officially closed down the 747 BCF line in 2016 or thereabouts. IAIs BDSF line in theoretically still open, but it seems extremely unlikely at this point that any more frames will get converted.
It would be interesting though to hear what the difference in acquisition + conversion cost would be for a decent B744 compared to a B77W.

Especially considering Kalitta's orders for the 777-300ERSF, I'd be surprised they would be shopping for an unconverted 744 airframe. But then again cargo is weird and will continue to be for a while so I'll just grab my popcorn and wait.

According to CargoFacts, Avianca is leasing A321 P2Fs from Global Crossing https://twitter.com/CargoFacts/status/1 ... 7200721920

As well as A333P2Fs https://twitter.com/CargoFacts/status/1 ... 8382246912

Why is ATI flight 3483 circling south of ILN?

Cargo aircraft loss: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20220520-0

EMB-110, both pilots only minor injuries. Came down in a rice field and lost its port wing.

Can’t remember seeing it posted anywhere on here, but one of Titan ‘s 321PF, G-NIKO has been running LHR-BRU twice a day since 20th May for Virgin.

Ball parksh based on the cost of other large passenger to cargo conversions development programs how much is a 8i conversion likely to cost? Even better what would the cost per aircraft be just to recoop the development costs of a 8i STC?

Canuck600 wrote:

Ball parksh based on the cost of other large passenger to cargo conversions development programs how much is a 8i conversion likely to cost? Even better what would the cost per aircraft be just to recoop the development costs of a 8i STC?

Basically a 747-8I P-F would be nearly identical to a 744 P-F conversion, only with other operating loads.
Replacing the main cargo deck beams and installation of a SCD are all "known terrority".
But the big question will be : Does the FAA except the "grandfather rights"of the 744 P-F conversion, a hot item at this point in time.

The next question : will a P-F converted 747-8I keep the SUD structure (increased OEW and reduced pallet hight) or could the SUD be replaced with a 748F hump, increasing the P-F costs, but producing a converted 747-8I freighter with identical structural and volume payload as a factory built 748F, only without the nose cargo door.
The replacement of the 747 upper deck structure has been demonstrated in the past by the conversion of the 747-200B to the 747-200B(SUD) aircraft, performed at the 747 FAL in the eighties.

So, to answer your question : First you have to decide what kind of conversion you want, than Boeing (or IAI ?) has to make a business case and source for available 747-8I aircraft to spread the development costs.

Upperdeck conversion , KPAE, 747 FAL


Original uploaded by 747classic (Peter Evers) via : https://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/03 ... d-process/

747classic wrote:

Canuck600 wrote:

Ball parksh based on the cost of other large passenger to cargo conversions development programs how much is a 8i conversion likely to cost? Even better what would the cost per aircraft be just to recoop the development costs of a 8i STC?

Basically a 747-8I P-F would be nearly identical to a 744 P-F conversion, only with other operating loads.
Replacing the main cargo deck beams and installation of a SCD are all "known terrority".
But the big question will be : Does the FAA except the "grandfather rights"of the 744 P-F conversion, a hot item at this point in time.

The next question : will a P-F converted 747-8I keep the SUD structure (increased OEW and reduced pallet hight) or could the SUD be replaced with a 748F hump, increasing the P-F costs, but producing a converted 747-8I freighter with identical structural and volume payload as a factory built 748F, only without the nose cargo door.
The replacement of the 747 upper deck structure has been demonstrated in the past by the conversion of the 747-200B to the 747-200B(SUD) aircraft, performed at the 747 FAL in the eighties.

So, to answer your question : First you have to decide what kind of conversion you want, than Boeing (or IAI ?) has to make a business case and source for available 747-8I aircraft to spread the development costs.


Was there ever disclosure in the past of what the development cost of the first 744 P-F conversion was? Or was that a trade secret? How was that cost shared between IAI and Boeing? Or did IAI come in later after the risk was removed? From my ignorant vantage point I don't think the 747-8i P-F prospect is attractive unless the aircraft is de-SUDed. The cost of de-SUDing has to be a big cost add to what was known territory for the 744 P-F.

I wonder if a dozen aircraft becoming available from LH and Korean could be enough to justify the development costs? If yes then is Boeing still able to provide staff and facilities for conversion?

The previous post above should have shown quotes around of 747Classic's original post (eg first three paragraphs) and not part of my post which was limited to :

Was there ever disclosure in the past of what the development cost of the first 744 P-F conversion was? Or was that a trade secret? How was that cost shared between IAI and Boeing? Or did IAI come in later after the risk was removed? From my ignorant vantage point I don't think the 747-8i P-F prospect is attractive unless the aircraft is de-SUDed. The cost of de-SUDing has to be a big cost add to what was known territory for the 744 P-F.

I wonder if a dozen aircraft becoming available from LH and Korean could be enough to justify the development costs? If yes then is Boeing still able to provide staff and facilities for conversion?

Aerotranscargo / F5 have suspended their OPS to/from China. Reason being that due to "technical issues in the administrative process" the China operating permit (CCAR-129) had expired. Should be fixed in a couple of weeks.

Currently no ATG callsign aircraft visible on FR24 and last movement was NQZ-MUC yesterday apparantly.

Anybody know more ?.

That’s not good….
Thought all their traffic was China -NQZ-XXX

@ Tugmaster - indeed not good, considering that they have a 7 strong fleet (even though three of those had not flown for a week as of yesterday);

4 x CGO NQZ BUD per week
3 x HFE NQZ LHR per week
4 x WUH NQZ BUD per week

wondering if that really is China operating permit related, or if there is more to it.....

aristoenigma wrote:

The previous post above should have shown quotes around of 747Classic's original post (eg first three paragraphs) and not part of my post which was limited to :

Was there ever disclosure in the past of what the development cost of the first 744 P-F conversion was? Or was that a trade secret? How was that cost shared between IAI and Boeing? Or did IAI come in later after the risk was removed? From my ignorant vantage point I don't think the 747-8i P-F prospect is attractive unless the aircraft is de-SUDed. The cost of de-SUDing has to be a big cost add to what was known territory for the 744 P-F.

I wonder if a dozen aircraft becoming available from LH and Korean could be enough to justify the development costs? If yes then is Boeing still able to provide staff and facilities for conversion?

A short history of 744 P-F conversions from sources grabbed off Wikipedia.

The 747-400BCF (Boeing Converted Freighter), formerly known as the 747-400SF (Special Freighter) conversion program was launched in 2004 with conversions by approved contractors such as HAECO, KAL Aerospace and SIA Engineering Company. The first Boeing 747-400BCF was redelivered to Cathay Pacific Cargo and entered service on December 20, 2005.Cathay retired the 747-400BCF in 2017 after 11 years of service.

Old data from a 2002 article that discusses rough costs of conversion before the programs began.https://www.flightglobal.com/747-400sf- ... illions%22.
The 747-400BDSF (BeDek Special Freighter) passenger-to-freighter conversion was carried out by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). The first 747-400BDSF was redelivered to Air China Cargo in August, 2006.

The demand for converted 747-400 freighters declined in the early 2010s, due to the availability of belly cargo capacity on more efficient passenger wide-body twin jets, and new orders for Boeing 747-8F and 777F freighters.

Approximately 79 747-400 aircraft were converted before the programs were terminated; 50 of these converted aircraft were 747-400BCF, with the remaining 29 being 747-400BDSF.

Boeing announced the end of their conversion program in 2016, although conversions had ceased years earlier with no orders after 2012.

Some converted freighters, that had been retired to desert storage, were returned to active service due to the increase in demand for air cargo capacity in the 2020-2021 COVID era.

C-GDUZ B767-300 is currently at FRA, arrived yesterday from YYZ.

Will continue to TLV for freighter conversion.

AC is still in Rouge cs with Air Canada titles scrubbed out.

Was ferried MZJ-YYZ on May 25.

According to simple flying, two ex trans aero 744's will be converted into freights. One took off from Tereul where it was in storage after being there for 7 years. Ex Singapore that wore the famous nose livery. Another one is expected to follow soon.

MCOflyer wrote:

According to simple flying, two ex trans aero 744's will be converted into freights. One took off from Tereul where it was in storage after being there for 7 years. Ex Singapore that wore the famous nose livery. Another one is expected to follow soon.

Took off to where?

Sharjah for storage.

Guessing Sharjah. But who would convert? Is this a parts donor for Terra Avia's other 744 converted freighter?

I haven't given a DHN update in a while, but things seem to be fairly quiet on the arrival/departure front. N831US, USA Jet's MD-83 that they've had since 2010 as it was the only one in the fleet before the DL MD-88s arrived, flew to DHN on Friday. It shows a diversion on a SHV-PBC flight to LRD, but the flight path makes it look like it was planned. Regardless, it hung around in LRD for a few days, and it's now at DHN, which makes me think that it is probably there for maintenance/repair.

EI-GWX, destined for Air Incheon Cargo and painted, has done a few test flights lately as OMD199, which makes me think that it's close to leaving. Nomadic posted a picture of it on their Twitter page.

C-GGWF also arrived this week, and it's headed for passenger service for OWG in Canada. Arrived under a Nolinor flight number from YMX via a quick stop at BFM (Mobile Downtown) to clear customs. Recent pictures indicate that it's in the former Alba Star livery with titles painted over (so white body, red tail).

Quiet few weeks at the facility, we'll see what departs next.

gdavis003 wrote:

I haven't given a DHN update in a while, but things seem to be fairly quiet on the arrival/departure front. N831US, USA Jet's MD-83 that they've had since 2010 as it was the only one in the fleet before the DL MD-88s arrived, flew to DHN on Friday. It shows a diversion on a SHV-PBC flight to LRD, but the flight path makes it look like it was planned. Regardless, it hung around in LRD for a few days, and it's now at DHN, which makes me think that it is probably there for maintenance/repair.

EI-GWX, destined for Air Incheon Cargo and painted, has done a few test flights lately as OMD199, which makes me think that it's close to leaving. Nomadic posted a picture of it on their Twitter page.

C-GGWF also arrived this week, and it's headed for passenger service for OWG in Canada. Arrived under a Nolinor flight number from YMX via a quick stop at BFM (Mobile Downtown) to clear customs. Recent pictures indicate that it's in the former Alba Star livery with titles painted over (so white body, red tail).

Quiet few weeks at the facility, we'll see what departs next.

835US is done and painted in the new light blue livery. 31 is parked right next to paint so that may be why it’s there? A CRJ is done with door install, pretty sure 683BR.

aristoenigma wrote:

Guessing Sharjah. But who would convert? Is this a parts donor for Terra Avia's other 744 converted freighter?

Good question. It's an aircraft with low hours so I'm guessing they'll likely convert both.

MCOflyer wrote:

aristoenigma wrote:

Guessing Sharjah. But who would convert? Is this a parts donor for Terra Avia's other 744 converted freighter?

Good question. It's an aircraft with low hours so I'm guessing they'll likely convert both.

Convert by who though? Bedek is barely getting 767s out the door and has their plate full with the suddenly quiet 777SF program. I know freight is weird and supply chain s are as messed up as ever, but Bedek cutting a door in a 747 this year is definitely something I didn’t have on my air cargo bingo card this year.

Also while this thread is active again:

Any word on Eastern's fancy schmancy 777 "freighter" program? It's been quite a while since anything has been mentioned and with the rumors of their operation not quite running on all cylinders lately, I have my doubts these will ever get converted.

Spacepope wrote:

Also while this thread is active again:

Any word on Eastern's fancy schmancy 777 "freighter" program? It's been quite a while since anything has been mentioned and with the rumors of their operation not quite running on all cylinders lately, I have my doubts these will ever get converted.

My money is with you.

wjcandee wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

Also while this thread is active again:

Any word on Eastern's fancy schmancy 777 "freighter" program? It's been quite a while since anything has been mentioned and with the rumors of their operation not quite running on all cylinders lately, I have my doubts these will ever get converted.

My money is with you.

I want a part of that winner!

eightcone wrote:

gdavis003 wrote:

I haven't given a DHN update in a while, but things seem to be fairly quiet on the arrival/departure front. N831US, USA Jet's MD-83 that they've had since 2010 as it was the only one in the fleet before the DL MD-88s arrived, flew to DHN on Friday. It shows a diversion on a SHV-PBC flight to LRD, but the flight path makes it look like it was planned. Regardless, it hung around in LRD for a few days, and it's now at DHN, which makes me think that it is probably there for maintenance/repair.

EI-GWX, destined for Air Incheon Cargo and painted, has done a few test flights lately as OMD199, which makes me think that it's close to leaving. Nomadic posted a picture of it on their Twitter page.

C-GGWF also arrived this week, and it's headed for passenger service for OWG in Canada. Arrived under a Nolinor flight number from YMX via a quick stop at BFM (Mobile Downtown) to clear customs. Recent pictures indicate that it's in the former Alba Star livery with titles painted over (so white body, red tail).

Quiet few weeks at the facility, we'll see what departs next.

835US is done and painted in the new light blue livery. 31 is parked right next to paint so that may be why it’s there? A CRJ is done with door install, pretty sure 683BR.

Good call. That's probably why. I do wonder if N832US will go into the livery that sister ships 833-835 are now in, as they did some intermediary livery, bearing similarities to the new livery and the old livery on 832, their first MD-88 conversion.

Another USA Jet MD-88 is now on the ground at DHN though, N834US diverted to DHN en route from GSP to BRO. It looks like they did a pretty sharp turn over west Alabama back towards DHN, so I'm guessing this was mechanical? Who knows, but there's now three USA-Jet, converted MDs on the ground at DHN - 831, 834, and 835 (not yet delivered).

I was driving along I-20 today to Texas, and I saw signs for the Shreveport Airport and decided to do a loop around the airport to see if I could find the WGN hangar and get a look. Didn't have much time, so I didn't get too close. Caught sight of a 747 and 2 MD-11s outside of the hangar and one inside. N258SN was the 747, as it's the only one there, and the two outside were N784SN (in partial Lufthansa livery) and N546JN (I think). I believe that I caught a glimpse of N581JN in the hangar, but I could be wrong on the tails of those last two. Neat operation at a relatively small field, wish I had more time to get closer and check it out

Cool side trip, gdavis003!!

How big was the dumpster fire there today?

travaz wrote:

wjcandee wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

Also while this thread is active again:

Any word on Eastern's fancy schmancy 777 "freighter" program? It's been quite a while since anything has been mentioned and with the rumors of their operation not quite running on all cylinders lately, I have my doubts these will ever get converted.

My money is with you.

I want a part of that winner!

Disconcertingly alls quiet on the 777 front. IAI promised their roll out in 4 months… 8 months ago. I was hoping for some sort of news soon but so far nothing.

wjcandee wrote:

All politics and showboating. As if NESTLE couldn't figure out how to do this.

Clearly Nestle could, but apparently Nestle isn't.

Appears N391CM CAM B763 BDSF did TLV-TLV test flight today. cheers!

FAA planning to possibly revoke the AOC of Rhoades/Transair after their investigation of last summer’s crash.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ir-express

gdavis003 wrote:

FAA planning to possibly revoke the AOC of Rhoades/Transair after their investigation of last summer’s crash.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ir-express

So how will this affect the cargo market in Hawaii? If transair goes under, maybe Aloha air cargo may take more flying though someone with more industry insight on the region can provide an explanation to my theory.

Boeing757100 wrote:

gdavis003 wrote:

FAA planning to possibly revoke the AOC of Rhoades/Transair after their investigation of last summer’s crash.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ir-express

So how will this affect the cargo market in Hawaii? If transair goes under, maybe Aloha air cargo may take more flying though someone with more industry insight on the region can provide an explanation to my theory.

I don't think Rhodes is currently flying, so...

wjcandee wrote:

Boeing757100 wrote:

gdavis003 wrote:

FAA planning to possibly revoke the AOC of Rhoades/Transair after their investigation of last summer’s crash.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ir-express

So how will this affect the cargo market in Hawaii? If transair goes under, maybe Aloha air cargo may take more flying though someone with more industry insight on the region can provide an explanation to my theory.

I don't think Rhodes is currently flying, so...

Correct. Their freighters at least (unsure about the passenger jets) haven’t flown since the crash. And a 737-400 at DHN that was being converted for Transair was sold to Aeronaves.

mcg wrote:

wjcandee wrote:

All politics and showboating. As if NESTLE couldn't figure out how to do this.

Clearly Nestle could, but apparently Nestle isn't.

Nestle could definitely figure out how to get more product to a necessary consumer. It wasn't a "Nestle" made problem though. Just a goat rope by others who then turned to the DOD to clean up yet another non-DOD mess!!! At least My Uncle didn't burn up flight hours and crews on the Moose or FRED.

Spacepope wrote:

MCOflyer wrote:

aristoenigma wrote:

Guessing Sharjah. But who would convert? Is this a parts donor for Terra Avia's other 744 converted freighter?

Good question. It's an aircraft with low hours so I'm guessing they'll likely convert both.

Convert by who though? Bedek is barely getting 767s out the door and has their plate full with the suddenly quiet 777SF program. I know freight is weird and supply chain s are as messed up as ever, but Bedek cutting a door in a 747 this year is definitely something I didn’t have on my air cargo bingo card this year.

I'm buying the first round, with shots, if 2 747-400s get converted either in 2022 or 2023. The only thing is, I will more than likely have to help Spacepope up off the floor, BEFORE we begin.

IAI is definitely busy. IAI definitely has a more profitable program in the 777P2F to launch. A good salesman though would find a way to have the only 747P2F program open as a viable alternative to the more expensive Big Twin.

Spacepope wrote:

Bedek is barely getting 767s out the door and has their plate full with the suddenly quiet 777SF program.

To put some color on that, the pre-Covid norm for IAI to turn around a 767 conversion at TLV for ATSG, perhaps Bedek's largest and longest exclusive customer, was 6 months.

Recent experience is that N390CM, which was completed in mid-May, was at TLV for about 9 months.

N391CM, which looks like it's going to be done soon, will have been at TLV about 11 months.

These two ships arrived at TLV about 1.5 months apart, and they're gonna end up completed about 2-3 weeks apart, so perhaps that suggests things are starting to pick up at TLV.

If N203CM, likely the next ship to be completed for CAM, is done anytime soon, that will have been there about 7 months. An improvement. But we'll see.

Meanwhile, at MEX...well, forget it. N1612T has been there 16 months. N1608 has been there 6 months.

MexicanaMRO has been doing MRO work for Atlas on its passenger and freighter 767s recently, so it isn't that facility's capabilities at the moment that's the issue; it's likely related to supply chain on parts in the IAI Kit, and/or parts needed on the heavy-check these aircraft get before conversion.

wjcandee wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

Bedek is barely getting 767s out the door and has their plate full with the suddenly quiet 777SF program.

To put some color on that, the pre-Covid norm for IAI to turn around a 767 conversion at TLV for ATSG, perhaps Bedek's largest and longest exclusive customer, was 6 months.

Recent experience is that N390CM, which was completed in mid-May, was at TLV for about 9 months.

N391CM, which looks like it's going to be done soon, will have been at TLV about 11 months.

These two ships arrived at TLV about 1.5 months apart, and they're gonna end up completed about 2-3 weeks apart, so perhaps that suggests things are starting to pick up at TLV.

If N203CM, likely the next ship to be completed for CAM, is done anytime soon, that will have been there about 7 months. An improvement. But we'll see.

Meanwhile, at MEX...well, forget it. N1612T has been there 16 months. N1608 has been there 6 months.

MexicanaMRO has been doing MRO work for Atlas on its passenger and freighter 767s recently, so it isn't that facility's capabilities at the moment that's the issue; it's likely related to supply chain on parts in the IAI Kit, and/or parts needed on the heavy-check these aircraft get before conversion.

Well explained. The lack of output down at MEX caught my eye and I was wondering if spinning up ADD, ICN and AUH a at the same time was spreading them way too thin.

But in todays world, we were seeing Boeing have to delay new 777F deliveries last year because they couldn’t get fire extinguishers for new builds. One issue clears and one or two new ones pop up. I know sourcing materials at work hasn’t gotten ANY a easier since 2020 with massive delays on who knows what. Things that used to be here in a week now can take 6 or more months. Seeing this drip into cargo conversions is seriously not shocking, and might even give a little insight to our long languishing 744F revivals.

gdavis003 wrote:

wjcandee wrote:

Boeing757100 wrote:

So how will this affect the cargo market in Hawaii? If transair goes under, maybe Aloha air cargo may take more flying though someone with more industry insight on the region can provide an explanation to my theory.

I don't think Rhodes is currently flying, so...

Correct. Their freighters at least (unsure about the passenger jets) haven’t flown since the crash. And a 737-400 at DHN that was being converted for Transair was sold to Aeronaves.

The pax 737-200 is flying occasionally under MUI1, mainly to LNY. It is on a different AOC, as are their Shorts. I am curious who the passengers on those flights are, or if they use it for belly cargo - though the turn times seem really short to unload cargo.

N390CM B763 BDSF sched MCN-CVG today after new paint. cheers!