Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
stlgph wrote:2022
Sun Country - this might end up being a 'do it or die' year for them here. i think we'll see more firm scheduling and commitment from them or an entire packing up of the shop. i'll be surprised if they can sustain fly-by-night cherry picking, but then again, stranger things have happened. i'm surprised we haven't seen them try Portland or Las Vegas.
pmanni1 wrote:WN's BUR operation is up to 76 daily departures and STL seems due.
maps4ltd wrote:pmanni1 wrote:WN's BUR operation is up to 76 daily departures and STL seems due.
I would agree, especially since SNA and LGB were added and routes like BUR-BNA already exist. They may be constrained at BUR though.
pmanni1 wrote:WN's BUR operation is up to 76 daily departures and STL seems due.
TWA302 wrote:
I need this big time. The connections for BUR suck big time.
OzarkD9S wrote:TWA302 wrote:
I need this big time. The connections for BUR suck big time.
STL is on track for more depth/frequencies this year once the 737-7 situation is sorted out I'm guessing. But you are right regarding connection times right now. Was looking for a day trip in Feb to burn some RR points and maybe hit a new city/airport for an hour or two. Unless I want to leave STL at 5:30-6:30 in the morning (I don't), it's still tough to make a day trip work to quite a few places the further away from STL you get.
stlgph wrote:It's more than just simply starting a route. right now it's about having the available resources to service and crew necessary flights and taking all that into consideration as their planes spread across the network.
Southwest is obviously very strong in Chicago and the routes out of O'Hare are pretty geared towards high origin and destination routes, not to say there aren't any on-bound connections, of course, especially out of Nashville, Atlanta, or Denver. wouldn't surprise me at all if ORD is doing well. wouldn't surprise me to see STL added at some point but it would surprise me if MCI didn't come first.
stlgph wrote:I, personally flew out of T5 twice in December and had no problems getting through security and the Starbucks that was there was more than adequate.
stlgph wrote:That being said, if we're going off of just load factors randomly posted on this site then Southwest needs to cancel probably 70% of their schedule unless you're able to count every dollar that comes in on every fare and compare it to the cost of doing business. I can only imagine T5 came at a pretty good rate with the cut of international services.
ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
Cubsrule wrote:stlgph wrote:I, personally flew out of T5 twice in December and had no problems getting through security and the Starbucks that was there was more than adequate.
Are you really suggesting that the lack of real PreCheck doesn't matter to passengers? I think the only other gates at a >1MM passenger/year airport that do not have real PreCheck are the ground level gates at SAN Terminal 1. The Terminal 5 checkpoint probably isn't too bad early in the morning, but our flight left at just about the same time as TK and AI, and the checkpoint was a mess.stlgph wrote:That being said, if we're going off of just load factors randomly posted on this site then Southwest needs to cancel probably 70% of their schedule unless you're able to count every dollar that comes in on every fare and compare it to the cost of doing business. I can only imagine T5 came at a pretty good rate with the cut of international services.
Again, I'm looking at the comparison with loads to MDW on identical city pairs. That's hardly a "random post" and is a useful comparator. As you know, profit basically has three components: load factor, cost per seat/CASM and revenue per seat/RASM. If we compare BNA/BWI/DAL/DEN-ORD/MDW, load factors are almost uniformly lower to ORD. Costs are similar though I think CASM is probably fractionally higher to ORD because ORD will have a little more fuel burn (less direct routings inbound, more taxi time), smaller average gauge, and fewer flights among which to spread the fixed costs of the station. And there's not a lot of evidence of a fare premium, although the lack of connections over ORD as compared to MDW may help RASM a bit (I say "may" and not "will" because it's possible that CHI-hub flights have more passengers connecting at the hub on the ORD segments than on the MDW segments).
stlgph wrote:Again, please tell me how you're privvy to Southwest Airlines accounting. There's a hell of a lot more that goes into it than just posting random load factors on an internet forum which you may or may not be able to verify are entirely correct. Again, entirely subjective.
Cubsrule wrote:stlgph wrote:Again, please tell me how you're privvy to Southwest Airlines accounting. There's a hell of a lot more that goes into it than just posting random load factors on an internet forum which you may or may not be able to verify are entirely correct. Again, entirely subjective.
What accounting datum is missing in your view? Again, we have a pretty good sense of loads (those are publicly reported and falsifying them is a crime, I'm not sure why you don't trust them), costs, and revenue/fares.
Cubsrule wrote:ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
JFK might make AA or DL more competitive for STL passengers, but once LH starts it won't add much to the network of the airport as a whole. US hubs will capture connections to all of the big cities in Europe, and FRA is an exceptionally strong hub for "interior Europe."
ruskistl wrote:Cubsrule wrote:ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
JFK might make AA or DL more competitive for STL passengers, but once LH starts it won't add much to the network of the airport as a whole. US hubs will capture connections to all of the big cities in Europe, and FRA is an exceptionally strong hub for "interior Europe."
Might not unlock too, too many new 1stop connections but I imagine it would open up a lot more competitive international flights in terms of $$$. Especially thinking of all the codeshare options.
ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
Cubsrule wrote:stlgph wrote:Again, please tell me how you're privvy to Southwest Airlines accounting. There's a hell of a lot more that goes into it than just posting random load factors on an internet forum which you may or may not be able to verify are entirely correct. Again, entirely subjective.
What accounting datum is missing in your view? Again, we have a pretty good sense of loads (those are publicly reported and falsifying them is a crime, I'm not sure why you don't trust them), costs, and revenue/fares.
stlgph wrote:ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
everything connects just fine now through O'Hare, Dulles, and beyond.
ruskistl wrote:stlgph wrote:ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
everything connects just fine now through O'Hare, Dulles, and beyond.
Lol if by "just fine" you mean really high prices and having to connect with that trash dumpster called O'Hare. Or forcing people to do a stressful LGA/JFK shuffle. Sure...just fine.
Cubsrule wrote:JFK might make AA or DL more competitive for STL passengers, but once LH starts it won't add much to the network of the airport as a whole. US hubs will capture connections to all of the big cities in Europe, and FRA is an exceptionally strong hub for "interior Europe."
Jshank83 wrote:Wednesday could be an interesting day.
Airport layout plan update is coming out. Might be our first look at what they are planning.
Also the airport incentive fund is going up by a million dollars.
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... h-Zoom.pdf
jplatts wrote:Cubsrule wrote:JFK might make AA or DL more competitive for STL passengers, but once LH starts it won't add much to the network of the airport as a whole. US hubs will capture connections to all of the big cities in Europe, and FRA is an exceptionally strong hub for "interior Europe."
Most of the European cities west of FRA that have AA nonstop service out of JFK such as BCN, LHR, MAD, and CDG already have 1-stop connecting service through ORD on AA or its partners.
Runway765 wrote:Jshank83 wrote:Wednesday could be an interesting day.
Airport layout plan update is coming out. Might be our first look at what they are planning.
Also the airport incentive fund is going up by a million dollars.
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... h-Zoom.pdf
I wonder if they'll go big like MCI/PIT or stay the course. Ideally, the former would be preferable.
ruskistl wrote:stlgph wrote:ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
everything connects just fine now through O'Hare, Dulles, and beyond.
Lol if by "just fine" you mean really high prices and having to connect with that trash dumpster called O'Hare. Or forcing people to do a stressful LGA/JFK shuffle. Sure...just fine.
Cubsrule wrote:Are you really suggesting that the lack of real PreCheck doesn't matter to passengers? I think the only other gates at a >1MM passenger/year airport that do not have real PreCheck are the ground level gates at SAN Terminal 1. The Terminal 5 checkpoint probably isn't too bad early in the morning, but our flight left at just about the same time as TK and AI, and the checkpoint was a mess.
stlgph wrote:Is the ALP still on its timeline or has it fallen off schedule, or even ahead of schedule?
https://www.flystl.com/about-us/stl-air ... troduction
Since it just says "update" it could be something boring, as in merely a proposal for a public survey proposal date which could be simply voted upon at the next meeting.
ruskistl wrote:Cubsrule wrote:ruskistl wrote:When's the last time STL had direct JFK? Anyone know why that hasn't been a bigger prioriity?
JFK might make AA or DL more competitive for STL passengers, but once LH starts it won't add much to the network of the airport as a whole. US hubs will capture connections to all of the big cities in Europe, and FRA is an exceptionally strong hub for "interior Europe."
Might not unlock too, too many new 1stop connections but I imagine it would open up a lot more competitive international flights in terms of $$$. Especially thinking of all the codeshare options.
stlgph wrote:Cubsrule wrote:stlgph wrote:Again, please tell me how you're privvy to Southwest Airlines accounting. There's a hell of a lot more that goes into it than just posting random load factors on an internet forum which you may or may not be able to verify are entirely correct. Again, entirely subjective.
What accounting datum is missing in your view? Again, we have a pretty good sense of loads (those are publicly reported and falsifying them is a crime, I'm not sure why you don't trust them), costs, and revenue/fares.
You're solely going off of what you read on an internet forum from 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or what have you information posted. You're not at SWA headquarters reading the SAP pages making its way up the C-suite chain.
That's what.
stlgph wrote:No action items on the agenda, though.
Cubsrule wrote:ruskistl wrote:Cubsrule wrote:
JFK might make AA or DL more competitive for STL passengers, but once LH starts it won't add much to the network of the airport as a whole. US hubs will capture connections to all of the big cities in Europe, and FRA is an exceptionally strong hub for "interior Europe."
Might not unlock too, too many new 1stop connections but I imagine it would open up a lot more competitive international flights in terms of $$$. Especially thinking of all the codeshare options.
I live in Nashville, so our geography is similar but we've had more JFK service recently. In my experience, the cheapest NYC connections are those that involve an airport change from LGA to JFK. So I'm afraid that JFK service might not help you fare-wise as much as you think. If B6 comes to JFK-STL and AA/DL are competing for O&D fares there might be some interesting cheap self-connects possible.stlgph wrote:Cubsrule wrote:
What accounting datum is missing in your view? Again, we have a pretty good sense of loads (those are publicly reported and falsifying them is a crime, I'm not sure why you don't trust them), costs, and revenue/fares.
You're solely going off of what you read on an internet forum from 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or what have you information posted. You're not at SWA headquarters reading the SAP pages making its way up the C-suite chain.
That's what.
I'm confused. The BTS data on loads are the BTS data. They aren't second hand (or thirdhand, or fourthhand). Those are the only data I've cited.
stlgph wrote:Cubsrule wrote:ruskistl wrote:
Might not unlock too, too many new 1stop connections but I imagine it would open up a lot more competitive international flights in terms of $$$. Especially thinking of all the codeshare options.
I live in Nashville, so our geography is similar but we've had more JFK service recently. In my experience, the cheapest NYC connections are those that involve an airport change from LGA to JFK. So I'm afraid that JFK service might not help you fare-wise as much as you think. If B6 comes to JFK-STL and AA/DL are competing for O&D fares there might be some interesting cheap self-connects possible.stlgph wrote:
You're solely going off of what you read on an internet forum from 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or what have you information posted. You're not at SWA headquarters reading the SAP pages making its way up the C-suite chain.
That's what.
I'm confused. The BTS data on loads are the BTS data. They aren't second hand (or thirdhand, or fourthhand). Those are the only data I've cited.
Again, for the third or fourth time now as I've mentioned, you have to go beyond BTS data. This. isn't. hard.
stlgph wrote:For the upteenth time now, take into the account the entire cost of doing business. Airport rent, fees, employee compensation, crew and scheduling availability, aircraft availability, fuel pricing and where it comes from, etc. etc. - THE WHOLE PICTURE not just a stat of numbers you really aren't privy as to how they fall into the entire operating matrix of the operating scale here.
Cubsrule wrote:stlgph wrote:For the upteenth time now, take into the account the entire cost of doing business. Airport rent, fees, employee compensation, crew and scheduling availability, aircraft availability, fuel pricing and where it comes from, etc. etc. - THE WHOLE PICTURE not just a stat of numbers you really aren't privy as to how they fall into the entire operating matrix of the operating scale here.
Right. But we have a comparator airport across town where a lot of the costs are the same.
Jshank83 wrote:
Since it has its own zoom link and a totally sperate agenda page. I think it going to be more than something boring. But we'll see.
https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Update.pdf
BuzzmeSTL wrote:With Allegiant's new planes (didn't quite read when delivery starts), thoughts on what could be added to BLV? AVL? RAP? TYS?
pmanni1 wrote:Looks like AA is not doing themselves any favors with the poorly timed AUS flights. Everyday this week the 945pm flight has less than 20 people on board according to the seat maps. The 1005am flight seems to do a little better. WN's flights are definitely more business friendly with an 845am and 440pm departure.
stl07 wrote:pmanni1 wrote:Looks like AA is not doing themselves any favors with the poorly timed AUS flights. Everyday this week the 945pm flight has less than 20 people on board according to the seat maps. The 1005am flight seems to do a little better. WN's flights are definitely more business friendly with an 845am and 440pm departure.
Basic economy doesn’t assign seats, and most travelers right now are not going for work due to omicron and even just the holidays