Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
pmanni1
Posts: 668
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon May 02, 2022 12:57 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I wonder if that is more of a bay area problem and less of an STL problem. Didn't a bunch of people move out of there once WFH became acceptable

It seems to be more of a midwest thing. MSP,DTW,MKE & MSN haven't gotten it back either.


In this context, doesn’t “Midwest thing” really mean “stage length thing?” Don’t forget that for big chunks of the past 20 years, SFO has been STL’s longest flight.

Smaller stations that are farther east like CMH,PIT,CLE and IND are getting it back or didn't lose it at all.
 
jplatts
Posts: 7147
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon May 02, 2022 2:58 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I wonder if that is more of a bay area problem and less of an STL problem. Didn't a bunch of people move out of there once WFH became acceptable

It seems to be more of a midwest thing. MSP,DTW,MKE & MSN haven't gotten it back either.


WN is serving MCI-OAK daily though, and MSP/DTW-Bay Area is served pretty extensively by DL.

Given its presence in STL, you would think WN should be serving the Bay Area at least 1x daily. STL-Bay Area is larger O&D wise than MCI-Bay Area, it was close to 250 PDEW last summer & was 400 PDEW pre-covid


I agree that WN would still have daily nonstop service to OAK from STL if WN wasn't facing the operational issues and staffing shortages that it is currently facing, but WN had reduced STL-OAK nonstop service to Saturday-only nonstop service in Summer 2022 due to the operational issues and staffing shortages that WN is currently facing.

Most of the WN stations east of the Mississippi River that have WN nonstop service to STL still have 1-stop connecting options to OAK on WN through other cities such as MDW, DAL, DEN, or LAS.
 
jplatts
Posts: 7147
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon May 02, 2022 3:03 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Smaller stations that are farther east like CMH,PIT,CLE and IND are getting it back or didn't lose it at all.


One big difference between SFO-CLE/CMH/IND/PIT and SFO-STL is that UA is currently the only airline serving the San Francisco Bay Area market nonstop from CLE, CMH, IND, and PIT, unlike the STL market where WN still has nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area (although being temporarily reduced to Saturday-only due to the operational issues that WN is currently facing).
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon May 02, 2022 3:04 pm

jplatts wrote:

but WN had reduced STL-OAK nonstop service to Saturday-only nonstop service in Summer 2022 due to the operational issues and staffing shortages that WN is currently facing.



No. There is no service on STL-OAK over summer. No Saturday flights either.
There is only STL-SJC Saturday service.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 03, 2022 1:48 pm

Allegiant extended their schedule thru mid February.

Changes from last year

AZA is starting a month earlier in November
FLL is not on the schedule

Interesting note. PGD runs daily from Dec 13-Jan 3
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 03, 2022 9:24 pm

AC loaded a 3rd daily STL-YYZ flight starting Oct 1.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed May 04, 2022 7:39 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Now these are the agenda items I like to see.

A. Approval of an Airport Use and Lease Agreement (“AUA”) with Air Canada Airlines

B. Approval of an Airport Use and Lease Agreement (“AUA”) with Deutsche Lufthansa AG (“Lufthansa Airlines”)

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Agenda.pdf


I find it odd they’re awarding their marketing and PR contract to a firm out of Houston. I guess no firm in STL provided a competitive bid.
I hate it when I see local airports, tourism offices, etc use out of town vendors for things like PR.


This was brought up in the meeting. There was a local bid that was similar.

It sounds like there may be some local employees involved with the winner.

Also, this went through 3 rebids apparently. First two everyone was thrown out.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

via airport commish meeting

Inaugural outbound LH flight is sold out. (you can still buy tickets so maybe they meant expected to be sold out?)
Inbound is booked to 170, which is much higher than I expected.
Said that STL is one of the better booking stations so far.

April checkpoint numbers were 89% of 2019. Spring breakers in March gave way to business travelers in April.

Open house for new terminal talk is tomorrow. Parking is free in T1.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed May 04, 2022 7:52 pm

stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
SFO restart on UA pushed back to January…. We are going to have more flights to Germany a week than the Bay Area this summer.

I wonder if that is more of a bay area problem and less of an STL problem. Didn't a bunch of people move out of there once WFH became acceptable


I don't think SFO-STL has ever been a strong performer for UA. ORD/IAH will get you to most of the places in Asia and I can't believe there's enough regular traffic to Oceania to buoy a flight like this. There's little reason to connect through SFO in light of that.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed May 04, 2022 8:10 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
SFO restart on UA pushed back to January…. We are going to have more flights to Germany a week than the Bay Area this summer.

I wonder if that is more of a bay area problem and less of an STL problem. Didn't a bunch of people move out of there once WFH became acceptable


I don't think SFO-STL has ever been a strong performer for UA. ORD/IAH will get you to most of the places in Asia and I can't believe there's enough regular traffic to Oceania to buoy a flight like this. There's little reason to connect through SFO in light of that.


I still feel like the lack of Asian traffic is the main culprit. I know someone who flew STL-SFO-TPE (or something like that) every year pre-COVID. Now, traffic to China is essentially nil.
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1789
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed May 04, 2022 9:41 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
via airport commish meeting

Inaugural outbound LH flight is sold out. (you can still buy tickets so maybe they meant expected to be sold out?)
Inbound is booked to 170, which is much higher than I expected.
Said that STL is one of the better booking stations so far.

April checkpoint numbers were 89% of 2019. Spring breakers in March gave way to business travelers in April.

Open house for new terminal talk is tomorrow. Parking is free in T1.

Really positive news. There may be some initial excitement around the flight but just comparing seat maps with like flights (ATL, AUS, DTW, CLT) it seemed to be selling (at least conceptually) better than those markets. I would hope there's a fourth frequency coming soon unless the yields are trash (they don't appear to be).
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed May 04, 2022 9:43 pm

LambertMan wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
via airport commish meeting

Inaugural outbound LH flight is sold out. (you can still buy tickets so maybe they meant expected to be sold out?)
Inbound is booked to 170, which is much higher than I expected.
Said that STL is one of the better booking stations so far.

April checkpoint numbers were 89% of 2019. Spring breakers in March gave way to business travelers in April.

Open house for new terminal talk is tomorrow. Parking is free in T1.

Really positive news. There may be some initial excitement around the flight but just comparing seat maps with like flights (ATL, AUS, DTW, CLT) it seemed to be selling (at least conceptually) better than those markets. I would hope there's a fourth frequency coming soon unless the yields are trash (they don't appear to be).


The airport director technically said "best selling market" but that might be helped by only 3 frequencies when others have daily depending on how they are defining it.

I would be pretty surprised if it isn't up to 5x a week by this time next year. Maybe there will be some kind of announcement on the day of the first flight.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed May 04, 2022 11:14 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
via airport commish meeting

Open house for new terminal talk is tomorrow. Parking is free in T1.


Shame there will not be a live stream of this event, do you plan on attending?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 3:18 am

BHMNONREV wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
via airport commish meeting

Open house for new terminal talk is tomorrow. Parking is free in T1.


Shame there will not be a live stream of this event, do you plan on attending?


I’m going to try to make it. Not 100% sure I will.
 
pmanni1
Posts: 668
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 1:31 pm

Any random person that visited flystl.com would have no idea LH is coming. No mention of it and LH not listed as an airlines and FRA not listed as a destination. Same with Air Canada.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 3:41 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
via airport commish meeting

Inaugural outbound LH flight is sold out. (you can still buy tickets so maybe they meant expected to be sold out?)
Inbound is booked to 170, which is much higher than I expected.
Said that STL is one of the better booking stations so far.

April checkpoint numbers were 89% of 2019. Spring breakers in March gave way to business travelers in April.

Open house for new terminal talk is tomorrow. Parking is free in T1.


STL/LH should really be capitalizing on pent-up O&D demand for travel to Europe. They likely are. This is a good sign.
 
stlgph
Posts: 12270
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 5:01 pm

Pent-up demand is a good sign but is it good enough to sustain great loads into the fall?
Lufthansa is smart staying 3 weekly for now and seeing what happens is better than bumping it up to 5 weekly and going bust and then having it all go back to a big fat 0.
 
STLflyer
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:08 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 5:14 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Any random person that visited flystl.com would have no idea LH is coming. No mention of it and LH not listed as an airlines and FRA not listed as a destination. Same with Air Canada.


I was in T2 last week and there was absolutely no sign that LH was coming either. I know it's a month out, but I figured they'd get signs up on their check in counters or something advertising the flights, just to build hype and make people aware.
 
stlgph
Posts: 12270
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 5:22 pm

T2 is currently full of people chasing the $79 email fares on Southwest to Florida.
That's not the audience.

Nor could they pronounce Lufthansa.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 5:29 pm

STLflyer wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
Any random person that visited flystl.com would have no idea LH is coming. No mention of it and LH not listed as an airlines and FRA not listed as a destination. Same with Air Canada.


I was in T2 last week and there was absolutely no sign that LH was coming either. I know it's a month out, but I figured they'd get signs up on their check in counters or something advertising the flights, just to build hype and make people aware.


They just approved the lease yesterday. I assume they will be getting moving on it here shortly.

I am curious on how they are going to fit in check in space and the TSA pre line. The line basically takes up all the area in front of the counter now. Somehow they are going to have to rework it.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 6:24 pm

stlgph wrote:
Pent-up demand is a good sign but is it good enough to sustain great loads into the fall?
Lufthansa is smart staying 3 weekly for now and seeing what happens is better than bumping it up to 5 weekly and going bust and then having it all go back to a big fat 0.


Agreed. They need the business community to embrace the flight as well. With that said, if tourists are filling the plane this summer, I’d expect to see an additional day or two added, and maybe eventually a daily flight. I believe the market can support it, it’s a matter of people knowing it’s an option. I do wonder if AA frequent fliers will fly a Star Alliance member just for a flight across the pond instead of connecting on AA.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 6:29 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Pent-up demand is a good sign but is it good enough to sustain great loads into the fall?
Lufthansa is smart staying 3 weekly for now and seeing what happens is better than bumping it up to 5 weekly and going bust and then having it all go back to a big fat 0.


Agreed. They need the business community to embrace the flight as well. With that said, if tourists are filling the plane this summer, I’d expect to see an additional day or two added, and maybe eventually a daily flight. I believe the market can support it, it’s a matter of people knowing it’s an option. I do wonder if AA frequent fliers will fly a Star Alliance member just for a flight across the pond instead of connecting on AA.


I am guessing whenever it does get frequency added there will be a seasonal flux. spring/summer will have more than winter. Not that hard to move it with demand. It happens at other stations.
 
stlgph
Posts: 12270
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 6:30 pm

If it goes up to 4 weekly, I wouldn't be surprised in our current environments, to not see this happen until almost a year, if not a full year until after start.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 05, 2022 8:40 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Any random person that visited flystl.com would have no idea LH is coming. No mention of it and LH not listed as an airlines and FRA not listed as a destination. Same with Air Canada.


Toronto is on the destination list below the map. But they do need to update the airlines page and route map. There are various things missing on the map, Montego Bay also. Also, Charleston and Destin aren't on the list or on the map.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 1:55 am

Made it out to the open house tonight. I ended up leaving early because the presentation was basically the same thing I already watched when it was given to the airport commission. I thought it was good and it was tailored more to those who aren't as familiar with the airport.

The early session apparently had a decent sized crowd and most if not all comments were positive. So that was good to hear.

Since I left early I didn't ask any questions. They are having a press event for the Air Canada relaunch on Saturday I am probably going to go to, so I'll ask some follow up questions then.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 2:26 am

A massive makeover of St. Louis Lambert International Airport — involving consolidation to a single, 62-gate terminal — could cost $3 billion.

In a best case, construction could begin four years from now, and take another five or six years.

current Terminal 2, finished in 1998 and now home to Southwest Airlines, or its garage could house a consolidated rental car facility,

-----------------

Hamm-Niebruegge reviewed familiar highlights of the one-terminal plan — gates capable of accommodating mainline flights, wider concourses for more concessions, the retention of Minoru Yamasaki's domes at Terminal 1, a single baggage area and Transportation Security Administration checkpoint — but also addressed other features, such as a new parking garage, constructed partially on a decommissioned fuel farm, that would double the airport's number of close-in spaces. Roadway access would also improve, she said, as vehicles get more lanes and drivers have more time to make decisions.

A MetroLink stop would be built into the east end of the new terminal, and part of the current Terminal 2, finished in 1998 and now home to Southwest Airlines, or its garage could house a consolidated rental car facility, Hamm-Niebruegge said.

And the new terminal could be expanded eastward if needed, though Hamm-Niebruegge said it could accommodate 620 flights a day, more than Lambert saw while it was a hub for the former Trans World Airlines. Lambert expects 21 million passengers in 2040; in 2019 it counted 15.9 million passengers, a figure that fell to 6.3 million in 2020 amid the pandemic. Last year, Lambert counted 10.3 million passengers, but could reach 13.5 million this year, Hamm-Niebruegge said.

A single terminal was pitched when the airport last completed a master plan, Hamm-Niebruegge said, but could not be executed because of the airport's high debt and fees, taken on to construct the infamous W-1W runway project to accommodate Trans World Airlines, which was later taken over by American Airlines and massively reduced Lambert flights.

"We were in no shape, nor did we have the support of airlines" — which ultimately fund large capital projects through fees — "back then until we could get cost under control and show a plan for how we're going to grow," Hamm-Niebruegge said.

Lambert's debt is now below $500 million, and poised to drop further with annual payments totaling more than $60 million, Lambert data show. And Lambert's landing fees have declined, making this the right time to fully remake the airport, Hamm-Niebruegge said.

The federal infrastructure bill passed last year makes available $5 billion over the next five years for so-called "medium hub" terminals like Lambert, Hamm-Niebruegge said.

However, "we would never get half of that because they're going to distribute that to all of the airports in your planning process, but we hope that we could take advantage of some of that," Hamm-Niebruegge said.

RECOMMENDED
And she said the airport, with annual expenses of more than $138 million, is getting some $80 million in federal Covid-19 aid, which it wants to use, in part, on building replacement facility and airfield maintenance shops, plus a storage unit, that would be displaced by the new terminal.

Hamm-Niebruegge made clear there will be a local cost. She said she doesn't yet know how much debt Lambert could be forced to take on to fund the project, with more analysis forthcoming.

"We know that we have to maintain a level of cost that's going to continue to attract carriers to grow," she said, acknowledging that costs could rise some. "But when you think about the costs that we're going to need to maintain a facility, from an infrastructure standpoint and not an enhancement standpoint, versus the cost of being able to build a new facility, reuse the domes, grow those revenues. That's what's going to be able to allow us to stay competitive."

Building would not start soon.

Information provided by the airport said the master plan could be completed in the fall, with Federal Aviation Administration approval required. Negotiations with airlines could take another two years. A 12-month environmental review process could occur during that window. But an 18-month architectural design process cannot move forward until the airlines, Southwest being the biggest, have signed on, Hamm-Niebruegge said. In a best case, construction could begin four years from now, and take another five or six years, she added.

Costs have risen for giant projects, including at the downtown convention center, which, like the airport, is owned by the city of St. Louis. But Hamm-Niebruegge said she didn't think that would jeopardize the airport's new concept.

The airlines, she said, have already been engaged in the planning of the airport expansion proposal and are familiar with Lambert's drawbacks, including long walking distances in Terminal 2, which is near capacity, and abundant but functionally obsolete space in Terminal 1.

"They see the challenges we're going to face for the future," she said.

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... llion.html
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 12:23 pm

Jshank83 has anyone in City leadership voiced an opinion about the plan? I think the airport has the correct approach in terms of a single linear terminal. I had not heard the idea to turn part of T2 into a rental car facility. That would be a great idea.

Also, $3-Billion should be viewed as an investment in the future of the airport and the STL metro area, not as a debt burden. The airport has a significant financial impact on the Metro area and if you look at peer cities, STL's facilities are falling behind.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 12:42 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 has anyone in City leadership voiced an opinion about the plan? I think the airport has the correct approach in terms of a single linear terminal. I had not heard the idea to turn part of T2 into a rental car facility. That would be a great idea.

Also, $3-Billion should be viewed as an investment in the future of the airport and the STL metro area, not as a debt burden. The airport has a significant financial impact on the Metro area and if you look at peer cities, STL's facilities are falling behind.


Pretty sure they mayor is on board. She has mentioned the needs.

Not sure the rental car would be in this plan. It’s more of a follow up thing they probably is likely later on but not set in stone.
 
pmanni1
Posts: 668
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 1:24 pm

I have not read anywhere how the 62 gates will be allocated to the airlines. How many will WN need?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 2:11 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
I have not read anywhere how the 62 gates will be allocated to the airlines. How many will WN need?


Probably way too early to know. May have new airlines or less airlines a decade from now.

Just my uneducated guess.. 20 to 25 for WN.

I also don't think all 62 will be used when it opens.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 2:13 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
I have not read anywhere how the 62 gates will be allocated to the airlines. How many will WN need?


I would think gate allocation is down the road at this point, and I'm of the opinion that all 62 won't be built at once since per JShank's comments above from the seminar Lambert is forecasted at only 21M passengers by 2040.

I believe the build out will start at 50 and go from there, 62 will be way too much capacity to start with.

Just my .02 worth.. good discussion nonetheless!
 
stlgph
Posts: 12270
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 2:26 pm

Will be interesting to see how the build-out goes.

If I'm standing in front of the terminal now, it makes sense to tear down A and everything to the left and build out there, especially if that side of the terminal will be holding the new customs facility. Then turn around and build out to the right.

If *ANYTHING* they could start with tearing down the B concourse and building there and then working its way out. If it's done right you could probably squeeze Delta operations in there and then have United/Air Canada (or vice versa) move into C concourse for the remainder of its life.

It might look lopsided a few years, i.e. it's possible one side could have 32 gates and the other side opens with only 10 - but at least it'd be smart do that.

Because, as mentioned, if this thing is 10-15 years down the road, who knows what airline we will see or won't see by then. Who is to say Southwest doesn't pack up shop entirely and head out to somewhere else?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 2:41 pm

stlgph wrote:
Will be interesting to see how the build-out goes.

If I'm standing in front of the terminal now, it makes sense to tear down A and everything to the left and build out there, especially if that side of the terminal will be holding the new customs facility. Then turn around and build out to the right.

If *ANYTHING* they could start with tearing down the B concourse and building there and then working its way out. If it's done right you could probably squeeze Delta operations in there and then have United/Air Canada (or vice versa) move into C concourse for the remainder of its life.

It might look lopsided a few years, i.e. it's possible one side could have 32 gates and the other side opens with only 10 - but at least it'd be smart do that.

Because, as mentioned, if this thing is 10-15 years down the road, who knows what airline we will see or won't see by then. Who is to say Southwest doesn't pack up shop entirely and head out to somewhere else?


What you say is about the only option. Tear down A/B. Move the airlines in A to C/D. build half. Move airlines into what is built while you clear out C and tear it down and rebuild. Only possible hiccup might be you try to get WN into it first but that requires more moving than just leaving WN in T2 the entire time. I am guessing the first airlines move into it sooner than the 9-10 year time frame. Maybe 2? years earlier.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 4:39 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Will be interesting to see how the build-out goes.

If I'm standing in front of the terminal now, it makes sense to tear down A and everything to the left and build out there, especially if that side of the terminal will be holding the new customs facility. Then turn around and build out to the right.

If *ANYTHING* they could start with tearing down the B concourse and building there and then working its way out. If it's done right you could probably squeeze Delta operations in there and then have United/Air Canada (or vice versa) move into C concourse for the remainder of its life.

It might look lopsided a few years, i.e. it's possible one side could have 32 gates and the other side opens with only 10 - but at least it'd be smart do that.

Because, as mentioned, if this thing is 10-15 years down the road, who knows what airline we will see or won't see by then. Who is to say Southwest doesn't pack up shop entirely and head out to somewhere else?


What you say is about the only option. Tear down A/B. Move the airlines in A to C/D. build half. Move airlines into what is built while you clear out C and tear it down and rebuild. Only possible hiccup might be you try to get WN into it first but that requires more moving than just leaving WN in T2 the entire time. I am guessing the first airlines move into it sooner than the 9-10 year time frame. Maybe 2? years earlier.


I would think that Southwest would be the last one to move in the shuffle scenario, but what you state above makes some sense. Since they are the one paying the bills so to speak, to get them fully onboard with this is to offer them the first gates available on the western side to include the new FIS. All the others would have to theoretically move twice, but it is what it is..
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri May 06, 2022 5:13 pm

This would likely work similar to what SLC just did. As Jshank83 mentioned. I think it was also mentioned somewhere in the survey/airport materials. They would demo A/B and finish that side first and then complete the rest.

As for the number of gates 62 in one linear concourse makes a lot of sense. You don’t build a project of this magnitude for today’s traffic, you plan for 10, 20, 30 years in the future. There are currently just under 50 gates in use.

Another thing that I’ve mentioned before, and to put this project into perspective, DTW’s A concourse McNamara terminal is 62 gates and about the same width of what STL is proposing. That should give everyone a good idea of scale.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat May 07, 2022 8:42 pm

Restart of YYZ on AC just landed in STL.

I also just noticed that starting July 1, one of the two frequencies switches to a E175! Great to see, first time I think that plane will be on the route. Bookings must be good. There are several days this month sold out and almost everything only has a handful of seats left. Happy they noticed.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun May 08, 2022 4:37 pm

Loads for January.

I wouldn't read to much into low ones. January is always bad and there was a covid surge, so they weren't great for anyone.

If it has #DIV/0! that means there were no flights. Also, international destinations numbers aren't out yet so they won't show up either. If there are any stations you think I missed let me know. I was trying to update it for the year.

Alaska
City Outbound Inbound Total
Seattle (SEA) 69.93% 72.04% 70.99%

American
City Outbound Inbound Total
Austin TX (AUS) 30.42% 29.10% 29.75%
Boston MA (BOS) 29.67% 26.16% 27.93%
Cancun MX (CUN) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Charlotte NC (CLT) 58.72% 64.57% 61.64%
Chicago IL (ORD) 44.84% 52.15% 48.67%
Dallas/Fort Worth TX (DFW) 66.67% 68.37% 67.52%
Los Angeles CA (LAX 70.20% 76.36% 73.23%
Miami FL (MIA) 50.29% 65.54% 57.94%
New York NY (LGA) 22.74% 28.28% 25.50%
Philadelphia PA (PHL) 52.18% 56.25% 54.23%
Phoenix (PHX) 53.76% 51.71% 52.72%
Washington DC (DCA) 41.45% 42.05% 41.75%

Delta
City Outbound Inbound Total
Atlanta GA (ATL) 61.85% 63.33% 62.59%
Detroit MI (DTW) 49.93% 56.77% 53.36%
Minneapolis MN (MSP) 50.85% 55.58% 53.22%
New York NY (LGA) 28.51% 32.69% 30.59%
Salt Lake City UT (SLC) 60.80% 74.62% 67.71%

Frontier
City Outbound Inbound Total
Atlanta GA (ATL) 51.88% 77.42% 64.65%
Cancun MX (CUN) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Denver CO (DEN) 54.61% 52.68% 53.64%
Las Vegas NV (LAS) 60.67% 58.74% 59.70%
Miami FL (MIA) 32.80% 97.85% 65.32%
Orlando FL (MCO) 79.41% 78.56% 78.99%
Punta Cana DR (PUJ) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!

Southwest
City Outbound Inbound Total
Atlanta GA (ATL) 62.65% 64.71% 63.72%
Austin TX (AUS) 54.72% 55.66% 55.19%
Baltimore MD (BWI) 52.32% 60.16% 56.32%
Boston MA (BOS) 59.62% 47.22% 53.31%
Cancun MX (CUN) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Charleston SC (CHS) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Chicago IL (MDW) 55.00% 44.94% 49.60%
Cleveland OH (CLE) 49.35% 57.89% 53.82%
Columbus OH (CMH) 50.51% 50.86% 50.67%
Dallas TX (DAL) 65.93% 66.77% 66.37%
Denver CO (DEN) 76.48% 81.90% 79.01%
Des Moines IA (DSM) 57.02% 51.28% 54.08%
Destin FL (VPS) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Detroit MI (DTW) 54.76% 50.75% 52.44%
Ft. Lauderdale FL (FLL) 57.92% 71.82% 64.12%
Ft. Myers FL (RSW) 84.86% 86.80% 85.79%
Houston TX (HOU) 70.89% 70.00% 70.42%
Jacksonville FL (JAX) 59.98% 73.63% 66.73%
Kansas City MO (MCI) 64.20% 69.43% 66.64%
Las Vegas NV (LAS) 78.45% 83.99% 81.22%
Little Rock AR (LIT) 34.12% 46.20% 40.65%
Long Beach CA (LGB) 72.95% 55.73% 64.05%
Los Angeles CA (LAX) 87.29% 80.55% 84.08%
Miami FL (MIA) 56.50% 74.62% 65.36%
Milwaukee WI (MKE) 65.04% 54.23% 59.59%
Minneapolis MN (MSP) 59.39% 55.10% 57.23%
Montego BAY JM (MBJ) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Myrtle Beach SC (MYR) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Nashville TN (BNA) 58.00% 50.65% 54.53%
New Orleans LA (MSY) 54.84% 55.05% 54.95%
New York NY (LGA) 42.84% 41.49% 42.16%
Oakland CA (OAK 86.00% 77.46% 81.73%
Oklahoma City OK (OKC) 47.42% 65.81% 57.87%
Omaha NE (OMA) 69.07% 75.51% 72.04%
Orange County CA (SNA) 59.55% 64.55% 62.11%
Orlando FL (MCO) 74.26% 79.48% 76.84%
Panama City FL (ECP) 51.43% 86.71% 67.30%
Pensacola FL (PNS) 70.63% 86.29% 79.25%
Philadelphia PA (PHL) 74.53% 73.51% 73.98%
Pittsburgh PA (PIT) 76.27% 64.71% 70.82%
Phoenix AZ (PHX) 76.39% 79.65% 78.02%
Portland OR (PDX) 79.43% 81.78% 80.53%
Raleigh NC (RDU) 74.55% 65.09% 69.19%
Sacramento CA (SMF) 68.66% 72.58% 70.63%
Salt Lake City UT (SLC) 81.94% 75.44% 78.49%
San Antonio TX (SAT) 55.68% 66.28% 60.27%
San Deigo CA (SAN) 82.50% 80.47% 81.48%
San Francisco CA (SFO) 99.43% 80.42% 90.88%
San Jose CA (SJC) 83.89% 83.77% 83.83%
San Juan PR (SJU) 63.09% 68.81% 65.72%
Sarasota FL (SRQ) 65.00% 75.15% 69.62%
Seattle WA (SEA) 98.86% 94.41% 96.86%
Tampa FL (TPA) 70.30% 75.79% 72.89%
Tulsa OK (TUL) 37.93% 55.13% 46.34%
Washington DC (DCA) 46.24% 42.90% 44.58%
Wichita KS (ICT) 46.43% 49.92% 48.21%

United
City Outbound Inbound Total
Chicago IL (ORD) 69.21% 73.47% 71.14%
Denver CO (DEN) 67.79% 68.90% 68.35%
Houston TX (IAH) 58.69% 60.70% 59.72%
Newark NJ (EWR) 47.62% 58.13% 52.59%
San Francisco CA (SFO) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Washington DC (IAD) 64.57% 71.92% 68.36%

Spirit
City Outbound Inbound Total
Cancun MX (CUN)
Fort Lauderdale FL (FLL) 44.44% 61.85% 53.15%
Fort Myers FL (RSW) 44.64% 60.93% 52.73%
Los Angeles CA (LAX) 56.81% 61.76% 59.35%
Las Vegas NV (LAS) 41.99% 70.22% 56.10%
Myrtle Beach NC (MYR)
Orlando FL (MCO) 54.34% 60.32% 57.33%
Pensacola FL (PNS) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Phoenix AZ (PHX) 44.04% 44.80% 44.42%
Tampa FL (TPA) 37.33% 47.74% 42.53%

Allegiant - BLV
City Outbound Inbound Total
Charleston SC (CHS) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Destin/FWB FL (VPS) 71.75% 81.57% 76.66%
Fort Lauderdale FL (FLL) 50.85% 66.67% 58.76%
Jacksonville FL (JAX) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Las Vegas NV (LAS) 53.58% 55.30% 54.44%
Myrtle Beach SC (MYR) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
Orlando/Sanford FL (SFB) 70.73% 74.68% 72.71%
Pheonix/Mesa AZ (AZA) 52.36% 48.82% 50.59%
Punta Gorda FL (PGD) 85.13% 84.62% 84.88%
Sarasota FL (SRQ) 53.76% 53.70% 53.73%
Savannah FL (SAV) #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0!
St Petersburg/Tampa FL (PIE) 68.68% 74.48% 71.58%
 
jplatts
Posts: 7147
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun May 08, 2022 6:18 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Loads for January.

I wouldn't read to much into low ones. January is always bad and there was a covid surge, so they weren't great for anyone.


Most of the WN stations that had WN service in January 2020 had weaker load factors and fewer passengers in January 2022 than in January 2020.

A detailed comparison of load factors and number of passengers on WN between January 2020 and January 2022 can be found at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468671&start=550#p23273743.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 5:30 pm

Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy
 
blhp68
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:04 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 5:35 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Following this as well. 5MM is a nice number, either way it is distributed will be a "win" for the state. Admittedly I am a KC resident but root for STL too.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 6:07 pm

blhp68 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Following this as well. 5MM is a nice number, either way it is distributed will be a "win" for the state. Admittedly I am a KC resident but root for STL too.



I’d assume KC gets first shot to use it for Europe. But hopefully there is some left over that STL could use for something else.
 
trexel94
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 6:15 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Like big brother coveting little brother's biscuit when he already has a full plate. STL frankly shouldn't receive a dime of this. They have their own resources. This incentive sounds like a one-time deal and KC needs to stretch it out as much as possible as Missouri typically provides little to nothing for attracting new flights.
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1789
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 6:59 pm

trexel94 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Like big brother coveting little brother's biscuit when he already has a full plate. STL frankly shouldn't receive a dime of this. They have their own resources. This incentive sounds like a one-time deal and KC needs to stretch it out as much as possible as Missouri typically provides little to nothing for attracting new flights.

I work in economic development consulting for a living and this is a ridiculous premise. St. Louis is using its own port authority money and other monies (I forget what) that could otherwise be spent on competing for economic development initiatives. I think the $5 million expenditure may even pay itself back in fiscal impact -- much less economic impact, which will far surpass the investment.

The state should absolutely provide the same allocation to St. Louis or offer to cover the Port Authority's investment. I don't see it any other way in terms of equity.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 7:02 pm

trexel94 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Like big brother coveting little brother's biscuit when he already has a full plate. STL frankly shouldn't receive a dime of this. They have their own resources. This incentive sounds like a one-time deal and KC needs to stretch it out as much as possible as Missouri typically provides little to nothing for attracting new flights.


Why shouldn’t STL get some? The incentive program should be a pot for any airport in the state to use.

KC has their own resources also. It shouldn’t be held against STL because they got themselves together and got a flight without any help from the state. There is no reason the state can’t help them get the next thing that they could use some help with. Everyone should get help.

Im fine with KC getting first crack at this, but there is no reason other in state airports shouldn’t get some if there is some left. This pot also should be something that keeps getting added to. Not a one time shot.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 7:03 pm

trexel94 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Like big brother coveting little brother's biscuit when he already has a full plate. STL frankly shouldn't receive a dime of this. They have their own resources. This incentive sounds like a one-time deal and KC needs to stretch it out as much as possible as Missouri typically provides little to nothing for attracting new flights.


Interesting that KC was specifically targeted with this money AFTER the St. Louis business community coughed up the cash for the LH flight. Like little brother coveting big brothers new bike ;)

See no reason why Kansas City businesses can't do the same to help the cause..
 
trexel94
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue May 10, 2022 8:08 pm

BHMNONREV wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Like big brother coveting little brother's biscuit when he already has a full plate. STL frankly shouldn't receive a dime of this. They have their own resources. This incentive sounds like a one-time deal and KC needs to stretch it out as much as possible as Missouri typically provides little to nothing for attracting new flights.


Interesting that KC was specifically targeted with this money AFTER the St. Louis business community coughed up the cash for the LH flight. Like little brother coveting big brothers new bike ;)

See no reason why Kansas City businesses can't do the same to help the cause..

KC has the traffic but not the corporate presence (far fewer large companies) ergo the additional help from the state.
 
User avatar
BuzzmeSTL
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:27 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 3:41 pm

With the supposed success/high booking rates of the new LH flight, what's the likelihood other EU carriers will notice?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7030
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 4:19 pm

BuzzmeSTL wrote:
With the supposed success/high booking rates of the new LH flight, what's the likelihood other EU carriers will notice?


Personal opinion on how it will/the airport would like it to play out.

Get LH flight to daily and make sure it is strong. Then get a 2nd route when the A321XLR finally is delivered in a couple years. Aer Lingus to Dublin I think is the favorite just because they originally were going to come a couple years ago if the LR didn't get pushed back.

I think that would pair well with LH. I would guess 2024 at the earliest, guessing more like 2025 or later for a second route.
I get the feeling LHR won't happen until they get the new runway with is closer to the end of the decade.

One thing that could change everything is if WN finds a Europe codeshare partner. But at the moment that doesn't seem likely.

Although if we spend that money KC got for a flight first...... 8-)
 
trexel94
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 5:27 pm

BHMNONREV wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Interesting tidbit on the state money supposedly for MCI. In theory STL could use some of it.

While the state specifically set the money aside for KCI, lawmakers say it could go to help another cities’ efforts. “I would love to see Kansas City get a direct flight, but if St. Louis has a fantastic proposal suddenly, there’s nothing that prohibits them from looking at this pot of money,” said Sen. Greg Razer, a Kansas City Democrat.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... rylink=cpy


Like big brother coveting little brother's biscuit when he already has a full plate. STL frankly shouldn't receive a dime of this. They have their own resources. This incentive sounds like a one-time deal and KC needs to stretch it out as much as possible as Missouri typically provides little to nothing for attracting new flights.


Interesting that KC was specifically targeted with this money AFTER the St. Louis business community coughed up the cash for the LH flight. Like little brother coveting big brothers new bike ;)

See no reason why Kansas City businesses can't do the same to help the cause..

Not the same. Not is being take from STL as it’s federally funded. KC made a request, presented its case and received funding. No different than any other institution. I suggest STL send over its own lobbying party to Jeff City. We’re not “after your bike” but buying our own.
Also there’s no indication that Missouri is going to keep this program. One time funding from excess fed bux. They’ve never done so before.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu May 12, 2022 6:56 pm

trexel94 wrote:
BHMNONREV wrote:
trexel94 wrote:

Like big brother coveting little brother's biscuit when he already has a full plate. STL frankly shouldn't receive a dime of this. They have their own resources. This incentive sounds like a one-time deal and KC needs to stretch it out as much as possible as Missouri typically provides little to nothing for attracting new flights.


Interesting that KC was specifically targeted with this money AFTER the St. Louis business community coughed up the cash for the LH flight. Like little brother coveting big brothers new bike ;)

See no reason why Kansas City businesses can't do the same to help the cause..

Not the same. Not is being take from STL as it’s federally funded. KC made a request, presented its case and received funding. No different than any other institution. I suggest STL send over its own lobbying party to Jeff City. We’re not “after your bike” but buying our own.
Also there’s no indication that Missouri is going to keep this program. One time funding from excess fed bux. They’ve never done so before.


Hey I don't begrudge KC one bit, if the money is there then by all means take advantage of it. If KC does in fact manage to secure a TA flight, what sort of corporate level support can be expected to keep front cabins occupied? This is the one area that concerns me with the LH flight in STL, can they fill 42 seats up front 3 times a week? Keeping rear cabins and bellies full should not be an issue..

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos