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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:21 pm

UA update (different schedule for holidays):
2 of 6 IND-EWR flights will be mainline in December
2 of 5 IND-ORD flights will be mainline in December

DL
IND-LAX upguaged to A321, but 3x weekly continues through beginning of Jan

bringbackATA wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
May
AS IND-SEA-96.0%

G4 IND-LAS-94.6%
G4 IND-PIE-94.6% (PIE-IND-96.0%)
G4 IND-SFB-92.1%
G4 IND-CHS-91.9%
G4 IND-FLL-91.8% (FLL-IND-95.3%)
G4 IND-PGD-90.9% (PGD-IND-96.0%)
G4 IND-JAX-90.5%
G4 IND-SRQ-90.5% (SRQ-IND-94.5%)
G4 IND-AUS-89.1%
G4 IND-VPS-88.3%
G4 IND-BOS-78.3%
G4 IND-SAV-76.3%
G4 IND-EYW-65.9%

AA IND-DFW-94.5% (DFW-IND-95.3%)
AA IND-PHX-93.6% (PHX-IND-97.0%)
AA IND-PHL-92.6%
AA IND-LAX-92.4%
AA IND-AUS-91.4%
AA IND-CLT-91.4%
AA IND-ORD-90.4% (Envoy mainline only)
AA IND-DCA-86.7%
AA IND-MIA-85.4%
AA IND-JFK-71.0%

LF IND-BNA-62.8% (BNA-IND-75.0%)

DL IND-LAX-95.9%
DL IND-MSP-92.7%
DL IND-ATL-90.7%
DL IND-DTW-86.4%
DL IND-JFK-85.0%

F9 IND-MCO-92.1%
F9 IND-DEN-90.6%
F9 IND-LAS-86.7% (LAS-IND-93.3%)

WN IND-LAS-95.5%
WN IND-RSW-94.8%
WN IND-PHX-94.2%
WN IND-HOU-94.1%
WN IND-SRQ-93.7%
WN IND-ATL-92.6% (ATL-IND-94.9%)
WN IND-DAL-92.3% (DAL-IND-94.6%)
WN IND-TPA-92.7% (TPA-IND-95.6%)
WN IND-AUS-92.2% (AUS-IND-94.8%)
WN IND-FLL-91.5% (FLL-IND-94.9%)
WN IND-MCO-91.2%
WN IND-BWI-90.4%
WN IND-DEN-88.9%
WN IND-ECP-82.4%

NK IND-LAS-91.9%
NK IND-FLL-91.2%
NK IND-RSW-86.6% (RSW-IND-96.4%)
NK IND-MCO-86.2%
NK IND-MYR-60.3% (4 Departures, still bad)

UA IND-SFO-94.2%
UA IND-DEN-92.6%
UA IND-IAH-89.5%
UA IND-ORD-88.2% (Mainline only)
UA IND-IAD-86.0%
UA IND-EWR-84.1%

IND-BOS-78.5%
IND-LGA-73.7%

Delta 10+% to JFK. Is rather shocking. DL also being ahead in the LA race has some shock imo.
United needs to bring back 2X to SFO, Or AS, I know who I’d take for my multiple trips to the Bay Area a year!


IND-SEA was the highest LF route in AS's system for May

DL is higher LF through LAX because they were running it less than daily.

IND's WN total LF was 3rd highest in the system.
 
bringbackATA
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:07 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Contour's contract with the IEDC ends on October 7th, barring a new contract looks like flights are slated to end at the end of September.

I’d like to see LFs Contract be renewed only if They were to Launch all of the Selected Markets. Plus it’s the only way I think It would work. Or atleast a EAS flight
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:27 am

bringbackATA wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Contour's contract with the IEDC ends on October 7th, barring a new contract looks like flights are slated to end at the end of September.

I’d like to see LFs Contract be renewed only if They were to Launch all of the Selected Markets. Plus it’s the only way I think It would work. Or atleast a EAS flight


They've been consolidating EAS flying around BNA, CLT and PHL so I doubt they'd want to do EAS. The economic climate is a bit too rough right now, I think, to (re)start these routes. They should trash out something to keep BNA though. Load factors seem to have stabilised at a decent level.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:30 am

Midwestindy wrote:
IND-SEA was the highest LF route in AS's system for May


That will take a hit come June with the added capacity. Curious to see how it performs in the long run though. Hopefully this will encourage AS to expand its footprint at IND.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:30 pm

Airport director: "The Indy market is extremely strong for the airlines, and I think you may be delighted in the very near future......about our new nonstops"

Europe announcement may be towards the end of the year, not solid yet, but interest from airlines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGRDrk ... naBusiness
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:27 pm

BA has started to announce its schedule and new routes for summer 2023. If LHR is going to happen next summer, we should know pretty soon.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:32 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
IND-SEA was the highest LF route in AS's system for May


That will take a hit come June with the added capacity. Curious to see how it performs in the long run though. Hopefully this will encourage AS to expand its footprint at IND.


AS does great in IND, even outside of summer

Image
https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements.aspx?Data=5
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:08 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
IND-SEA was the highest LF route in AS's system for May


That will take a hit come June with the added capacity. Curious to see how it performs in the long run though. Hopefully this will encourage AS to expand its footprint at IND.


AS does great in IND, even outside of summer

Image
https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements.aspx?Data=5


That IS some solid performance. Makes it all the more frustrating how conservative AS can be at times. With AA also growing here, they could easily put IND beyond contention between the pair of them. You could have non-stops to pretty much everywhere that matters and multiple one-stop options to pretty much everywhere else. Add TATL on top and Oneworld becomes untouchable. Oh well, one can dream.
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:20 pm

What’s the chances AA makes IND a focus city, with more ptp cities?!?
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:24 pm

I have been working at the FedEx hub construction for the past 8 months. They are expanding the trailer area so they can handle double the semis as they can now. Big expansion to building. That is phase 1 at FedEx. It’s a 3 year job. Good for me! Year round work…!!
 
jplatts
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:35 pm

fedex1 wrote:
What’s the chances AA makes IND a focus city, with more ptp cities?!?


Here are the Q1 2022 PDEW's of the top contiguous U.S. markets traveled to from IND without AA nonstop service out of IND:
IND-MCO/SFB - 674
IND-RSW/PGD - 566
IND-TPA/PIE - 472
IND-LAS - 370
IND-DEN - 317
IND-ATL - 299
IND-SRQ - 185
IND-IAH/HOU - 165
IND-SFO/OAK/SJC - 141
IND-MSP - 114
IND-SEA - 103
IND-SAN - 99
IND-JAX - 78
IND-RDU - 75
IND-SLC - 67

Most of the above markets already have plenty of nonstop service out of IND on other airlines, but SAN/SLC currently don't have any nonstop service out of IND.
 
jplatts
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:44 pm

Here are the Q1 2022 PDEW's of the top contiguous U.S. markets traveled to from IND that don't currently have any nonstop service out of IND:
IND-SAN - 99
IND-SLC - 67
IND-MSY - 66
IND-SAT - 58
IND-PBI - 50 (G4 has seasonal nonstop service to PBI from IND)
IND-EYW - 41 (G4 has seasonal nonstop service to EYW from IND)
IND-PDX - 40
IND-SMF - 39
IND-MCI - 32
IND-ORF - 31
IND-TUS - 29
IND-BDL - 25
IND-PNS - 24
IND-RIC - 23
IND-PSP - 22
 
jplatts
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:48 pm

fedex1 wrote:
What’s the chances AA makes IND a focus city, with more ptp cities?!?


IND-SAN is probably within the range of E-175 regional jets as UA had previously operated EUG-ORD nonstop service on E-175 regional jets and as the great circle distance of IND-SAN is 1782 miles (which is only 2 miles longer than that of EUG-ORD, which is 1780 miles).

IND-SAN and EUG-ORD are both well within the published range of E-175 regional jets, which is 2531 miles.

AS had also previously operated E-175 regional jets on AUS-PDX, which is 1714 miles long.

IND-SLC is one of the top routes that isn't currently served nonstop from IND, but I would probably expect DL IND-SLC nonstop service to be re-added prior to another airline adding IND-SLC nonstop service.

MSY/SAT could probably support AA nonstop service on an E-175 with the amount of O&D demand that is there to MSY/SAT from IND.

The possibility of AA adding IND-RDU nonstop service has also already been discussed with AA having recently added CVG-RDU nonstop service.

I am unsure if AA would add any additional p2p nonstop routes out of IND with most of the top markets that don't currently have AA nonstop service out of IND already having plenty of nonstop service out of IND on other airlines.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:45 pm

jplatts wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
What’s the chances AA makes IND a focus city, with more ptp cities?!?


IND-SAN is probably within the range of E-175 regional jets as UA had previously operated EUG-ORD nonstop service on E-175 regional jets and as the great circle distance of IND-SAN is 1782 miles (which is only 2 miles longer than that of EUG-ORD, which is 1780 miles).

IND-SAN and EUG-ORD are both well within the published range of E-175 regional jets, which is 2531 miles.

AS had also previously operated E-175 regional jets on AUS-PDX, which is 1714 miles long.

IND-SLC is one of the top routes that isn't currently served nonstop from IND, but I would probably expect DL IND-SLC nonstop service to be re-added prior to another airline adding IND-SLC nonstop service.

MSY/SAT could probably support AA nonstop service on an E-175 with the amount of O&D demand that is there to MSY/SAT from IND.

The possibility of AA adding IND-RDU nonstop service has also already been discussed with AA having recently added CVG-RDU nonstop service.

I am unsure if AA would add any additional p2p nonstop routes out of IND with most of the top markets that don't currently have AA nonstop service out of IND already having plenty of nonstop service out of IND on other airlines.


Don't forget TPA. It's a large and growing market, and it generates significantly more business traffic than your average Florida destination. AA already flies it from AUS, RDU, and BNA. If more P2P is on the cards at IND, it's a prime candidate.
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:13 pm

Thank you for the replies!
 
Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:17 am

jplatts wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
What’s the chances AA makes IND a focus city, with more ptp cities?!?


IND-SAN is probably within the range of E-175 regional jets as UA had previously operated EUG-ORD nonstop service on E-175 regional jets and as the great circle distance of IND-SAN is 1782 miles (which is only 2 miles longer than that of EUG-ORD, which is 1780 miles).



I 100% disagree with this. STL-SFO was commonly weight restricted and they had to ask up to 10 people to not take the flight at times in winter. It is 50ish miles shorter than IND-SAN. MAYBE it could work in summer (EUG-ORD is summer only) but I would be surprised. I feel like UA out of ORD is more likely to run a long leg like that on a E jet than AA/AS out of SAN. If they add it would be mainline.
 
bringbackATA
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:14 am

fedex1 wrote:
What’s the chances AA makes IND a focus city, with more ptp cities?!?

I’d say there high, Maybe not Austin Level but I can see IND-Florida,Vegas,San Diego Leisure routes with places like RDU,MCI,BDL thrown in as well. They could very well run a Similar thing to what NWA. Getting Alaska to do PDX,SFO too.
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:51 am

I was watching the Inside Indiana Business video and had some questions about the runway rehabilitation project. I think Mario said it was a 3 year 200-ish million dollar project. Is that correct? Will the runway take 3 years to be rehabilitated? Are they doing a complete removal and replacement of the existing runway, or are they doing sections at a time so it isn't out of service for a very long time?
 
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:05 pm

Indy wrote:
I was watching the Inside Indiana Business video and had some questions about the runway rehabilitation project. I think Mario said it was a 3 year 200-ish million dollar project. Is that correct? Will the runway take 3 years to be rehabilitated? Are they doing a complete removal and replacement of the existing runway, or are they doing sections at a time so it isn't out of service for a very long time?


Will be done in phases so the runway will be open during certain periods of the 3-year process.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:25 pm

2023 Budget approved today

Airport will be doing studies looking into expansion of domestic and int'l gates
Image

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 0818083201
 
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N292UX
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:14 pm

AA is adding mainline service on IND-DCA flights beginning in November, one of the E175 flights will be upgauged to an A319 daily.
 
Mannoroth
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:18 pm

N292UX wrote:
AA is adding mainline service on IND-DCA flights beginning in November, one of the E175 flights will be upgauged to an A319 daily.

That should probably do well considering most of the IND-DCA flights are generally full. Could be another sign of a potential AA buildup in IND.

Wouldn’t be surprised if AA adds p2p routes from IND such as IND-MSY/PIT/RDU/JAX eventually happen also.

Much like MEM/RDU, AA has gotten pretty far ahead of DL in terms of having the largest presence among the US3
 
bringbackATA
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:57 am

Midwestindy wrote:
2023 Budget approved today

Airport will be doing studies looking into expansion of domestic and int'l gates
Image

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 0818083201

I hope that includes ( if it happens ) expanding customs
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:49 pm

Do they really need to add additional gates? Couldn’t you utilize the gates you have more?

I know nothing about the customs area…. Is it small? Closet size…?
 
kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:53 pm

fedex1 wrote:
Do they really need to add additional gates? Couldn’t you utilize the gates you have more?

I know nothing about the customs area…. Is it small? Closet size…?


They may not need the gates today, but they almost certainly will in 5-10 years - which is the earliest you could possibly have them built.

Customs area is very small and certainly never intended for simultaneous international arrivals, which is what some days saw before Covid. Head back to the 2019/2020 threads and you can read about it (including various theories on where space could be found for expansion).
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:26 pm

Thank you.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:42 pm

kindeham wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Do they really need to add additional gates? Couldn’t you utilize the gates you have more?

I know nothing about the customs area…. Is it small? Closet size…?


They may not need the gates today, but they almost certainly will in 5-10 years - which is the earliest you could possibly have them built.

Customs area is very small and certainly never intended for simultaneous international arrivals, which is what some days saw before Covid. Head back to the 2019/2020 threads and you can read about it (including various theories on where space could be found for expansion).


The customs situation is interesting, and anecdotally it is similar to other non-hub airports.

When the terminal was designed, non-hub airports with Transoceanic service was more rare. In the next 5-10 years, it wouldn't be surprising if IND had 2 Euro flights, and multiple Caribbean flights potentially landing around the same time.

With the development of the A321LR, I think that more of the mid-sized airports will look towards expanding their customs facilities.

Also as you pointed out, if the airport was in need of gates today, they would have waited too long to expand
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:41 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Cutting IND-LAX would be the nail in the coffin for DL in IND.

LAX was the 2nd largest market from IND last summer.


More on this:

DL has now fully cut IND-LAX from Mid-August thru Mid-September. Schedule isn't fully updated past then I believe, so I wouldn't be surprised if this cut is extended.


More DL cuts:

DL cutting IND-BOS down to 2x daily for September & October, not a great sign....

DL's IND-LAX hanging on by a thread, down to 3x weekly for September and October.

One IND-DTW flight gets upguaged to mainline (B717)


May get another round of cuts for October/November....

Potentially a glitch.......But looks like IND-DTW could go down to 3x daily (Saturday 2x) for October, which would be the lowest since peak COVID. The mid morning flight has been zero'd out on DL.com for the past week, from October 1-->November 8th.

For reference IND-DTW was 5x/day in October 2020/2021, and 7x/day in October 2019.

Looking at google flights, it looks like only the only new 1-stop losses are BGM, ITH, LAN, MBS, SCE, NGO from IND on DL (or require an excessive connection). Although, IND is also cut off from DTW-ICN, but can still 1 stop backtrack thru ATL or 1-stop 3x weekly thru MSP.

Overall more connections thru ATL for IND based flyers.
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:39 pm

They really do need to look at expanding international gates and customs. The whole customs area needs to be reworked. The end of the A concourse can be expanded to add 2 more gates. I would seal off A1-A5 to where any and all of them could be used for international arrivals, or as common use gates. Closing one of those gates off for international arrivals takes minimal investment. How much do a couple glass doors and some glass partitions cost? That is about it. Right now having more gates would seem like overkill, but where will IND be in 10 years? Assuming we don't have another 9/11, Great Recessing, or pandemic, optimistically IND could have 2 European flights, 1 Asia flight, and multiple Caribbean & Mexican flights. Nothing on that list is unrealistic. IND was already in pursuit of Asia and close to landing it before the pandemic hit. With Infosys growing their center, that will greatly increase demand for Asia service.

As a former Infosys employee, I can tell you how they work. A vast majority of their workers in the U.S. are from India. They get flown in to the U.S. where they work at technology and training centers like the one in Indy. Depending on the situation, they will on board, train, and get sent out to client locations. Some will work within the center in spaces leased by clients. A realistic route from somewhere in India would be India-Japan-Indy. And then from Indy to some point in the U.S. after training has completed. Their Indy center is going to be very large and they will move a lot of people through that space.
 
ibthebigd
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:35 am

Wouldn't flying India-Europe-IND be closer?

I saw several comments India traffic really helped IND-CDG. How connected is LHR-India nowadays? My prediction is LHR will be the next European flight for IND.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:55 am

I wasn't sure how flights would go until I did a lookup of flights from Bangalore to IND. I think the #1 flight on the list went through Japan.
 
VTORD
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:18 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
Wouldn't flying India-Europe-IND be closer?

I saw several comments India traffic really helped IND-CDG. How connected is LHR-India nowadays? My prediction is LHR will be the next European flight for IND.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

India - LHR - IND is a better and safer bet than India - Japan - IND any day. You can never have enough flights between LHR - India. Currently LHR-India sees BA, AI, VS, UK and then there's the recently announced AC fifth freedom flight.
 
VTORD
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:28 pm

Indy wrote:
I wasn't sure how flights would go until I did a lookup of flights from Bangalore to IND. I think the #1 flight on the list went through Japan.

I don't know if this is due to the Ukraine situation but from India, XXX-DEL/BOM-EWR/ORD-IND (UA) would make the most sense. That's why IND-CDG was such a great complement to DL's short lived JFK-BOM. The timing outbound from IND was perfect for connections to India and same way inbound from JFK to IND in the morning. You recall what routing it showed you airline wise? Just curious.
IND likely has a lot of leakage to ORD particularly AI's ORD-DEL which is almost perfect for pretty much everywhere in India ex-DEL.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:29 pm

F9 adding IND-PHX 2x weekly A320

Averages fares and LF on this route were crazy in Q1, so this should help
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:24 pm

VTORD wrote:
Indy wrote:
I wasn't sure how flights would go until I did a lookup of flights from Bangalore to IND. I think the #1 flight on the list went through Japan.

I don't know if this is due to the Ukraine situation but from India, XXX-DEL/BOM-EWR/ORD-IND (UA) would make the most sense. That's why IND-CDG was such a great complement to DL's short lived JFK-BOM. The timing outbound from IND was perfect for connections to India and same way inbound from JFK to IND in the morning. You recall what routing it showed you airline wise? Just curious.
IND likely has a lot of leakage to ORD particularly AI's ORD-DEL which is almost perfect for pretty much everywhere in India ex-DEL.


I think I had just plugged it in to Travelocity. Today it is showing flights through JFK instead. No idea what the deal was the other day. I don't even remember why I put it in the search tool. Might have been checking prices out of curiosity. Just remember seeing Japan on the list and was surprised.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:11 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

More on this:

DL has now fully cut IND-LAX from Mid-August thru Mid-September. Schedule isn't fully updated past then I believe, so I wouldn't be surprised if this cut is extended.


More DL cuts:

DL cutting IND-BOS down to 2x daily for September & October, not a great sign....

DL's IND-LAX hanging on by a thread, down to 3x weekly for September and October.

One IND-DTW flight gets upguaged to mainline (B717)


May get another round of cuts for October/November....

Potentially a glitch.......But looks like IND-DTW could go down to 3x daily (Saturday 2x) for October, which would be the lowest since peak COVID. The mid morning flight has been zero'd out on DL.com for the past week, from October 1-->November 8th.

For reference IND-DTW was 5x/day in October 2020/2021, and 7x/day in October 2019.

Looking at google flights, it looks like only the only new 1-stop losses are BGM, ITH, LAN, MBS, SCE, NGO from IND on DL (or require an excessive connection). Although, IND is also cut off from DTW-ICN, but can still 1 stop backtrack thru ATL or 1-stop 3x weekly thru MSP.

Overall more connections thru ATL for IND based flyers.


DL update:

IND-MSP goes up to 3x mainline for October
IND-ATL loses the B757s for October

IND-DTW is officially down to 3x daily for October, lower than BUF/CLE/CVG/STL/MCI/MKE/MSN/PIT-DTW.

We'll see if that cut sticks into following months like others have

They also changed the timings thru IND which messed up a ton of DTW connections, potentially trying to push more connections thru NYC/ATL/BOS? Load factors could be rough in October on IND-DTW

Intl:
IND-DTW-FRA/HND/ICN/LHR/MUC/NGO are extremely long connections (3-4-5+ hour layovers)
YYZ-DTW-IND is now a 3 hour connection

PWM-DTW-IND no longer appears

Down to 2 options (both ~2:30 layovers):
IND-DTW-BDL
IND-DTW-PHL
IND-DTW-SYR
IND-DTW-ORF
IND-DTW-ALB
IND-DTW-YUL
IND-DTW-EWR (technically 3 options but 3rd is 3:45 layover)

DL's lowest point departures wise thru IND since early 2021, surprising given how busy October is at IND.
 
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N292UX
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:31 pm

IND-DTW seems entirely connection-based so not shocked to see that one lose a few frequencies.

Pretty sure MSP-IND was 5x daily in the summer and 4x daily in the fall and winter so not a huge difference on that one. May have a bit more capacity now with 2 of those ones being A321s. ATL-IND is still at 7x, still a bit behind pre-COVID frequencies also.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:01 pm

N292UX wrote:
IND-DTW seems entirely connection-based so not shocked to see that one lose a few frequencies.

Pretty sure MSP-IND was 5x daily in the summer and 4x daily in the fall and winter so not a huge difference on that one. May have a bit more capacity now with 2 of those ones being A321s. ATL-IND is still at 7x, still a bit behind pre-COVID frequencies also.


IND-BOS/DTW down by far the worst. I think it has to do with AA growing their IND-Northeast presence.

(LAX/CDG weekly frequency average)
Image
Image
 
bringbackATA
Posts: 184
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Aug 27, 2022 9:20 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
N292UX wrote:
IND-DTW seems entirely connection-based so not shocked to see that one lose a few frequencies.

Pretty sure MSP-IND was 5x daily in the summer and 4x daily in the fall and winter so not a huge difference on that one. May have a bit more capacity now with 2 of those ones being A321s. ATL-IND is still at 7x, still a bit behind pre-COVID frequencies also.


IND-BOS/DTW down by far the worst. I think it has to do with AA growing their IND-Northeast presence.

(LAX/CDG weekly frequency average)
Image
Image

I’d like to see a AA and WN version of these charts. WN has a good bit of routes they haven’t brought back. I don’t know about capacity.
 
umichman
Posts: 412
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:33 am

N292UX wrote:
IND-DTW seems entirely connection-based so not shocked to see that one lose a few frequencies.

Pretty sure MSP-IND was 5x daily in the summer and 4x daily in the fall and winter so not a huge difference on that one. May have a bit more capacity now with 2 of those ones being A321s. ATL-IND is still at 7x, still a bit behind pre-COVID frequencies also.


Nobody is flying DTW-GRR/CLE/CMH for O&D either and those are still 4x daily. DL might be doing some connection carrier swaps and will add back IND flights for October next weekend.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:37 pm

umichman wrote:
N292UX wrote:
IND-DTW seems entirely connection-based so not shocked to see that one lose a few frequencies.

Pretty sure MSP-IND was 5x daily in the summer and 4x daily in the fall and winter so not a huge difference on that one. May have a bit more capacity now with 2 of those ones being A321s. ATL-IND is still at 7x, still a bit behind pre-COVID frequencies also.


Nobody is flying DTW-GRR/CLE/CMH for O&D either and those are still 4x daily. DL might be doing some connection carrier swaps and will add back IND flights for October next weekend.


You shouldn't/don't completely remove a flight from the schedule ~1 month out for a carrier swap. That means you have one month to fill a new flight completely from scratch.

I think these also lost a frequency, and potentially others as well, so looks like it wasn't just IND. But it still messed up a bunch of connections.
BDL-DTW
HPN-DTW
SYR-DTW
ROC-DTW
TYS-DTW
YYZ-DTW
YUL-DTW
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:18 pm

bringbackATA wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
N292UX wrote:
IND-DTW seems entirely connection-based so not shocked to see that one lose a few frequencies.

Pretty sure MSP-IND was 5x daily in the summer and 4x daily in the fall and winter so not a huge difference on that one. May have a bit more capacity now with 2 of those ones being A321s. ATL-IND is still at 7x, still a bit behind pre-COVID frequencies also.


IND-BOS/DTW down by far the worst. I think it has to do with AA growing their IND-Northeast presence.

(LAX/CDG weekly frequency average)
Image
Image

I’d like to see a AA and WN version of these charts. WN has a good bit of routes they haven’t brought back. I don’t know about capacity.


October 2019 v. 2022 isn't that many dropped routes for WN actually, but over the course of 2018-2022 they have dropped a ton.

(LAX was weekend only, and OAK/SAN weren't operating in October)
Image

Image
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2362
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:42 pm

I don't think there is a carrier swap happening. When they cut on the IND-DTW flights they zero'd out the 717 operated flight and a CR9 flight and added a CR9 flight for a new total of three daily. Also, I'm seeing the same adjustment in some other markets. I was looking at SFO-ATL the other day and noticed they had zero'd out two daily flights and replaced them with 3x or 4x off-daily services. So they are definitely doing some close-in right sizing for their network. Sad to see DL's position decline so much in IND versus pre covid and the NW days, but the fact is they feel there are better use of aircraft in what is, at least temporarily, a resource constrained environment.

What we have from Delta now is what they deem to be rightfully competitive with the resources they have in play. I have this feeling that as Delta, slowly, inducts more aircraft over the next 12 months we won't see a lot of the pre-covid capacity return. It seems like they have slightly shifted their network focus and I expect what we had this summer is about what we can expect for years to come, from DL.
 
bringbackATA
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:59 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:05 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
bringbackATA wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

IND-BOS/DTW down by far the worst. I think it has to do with AA growing their IND-Northeast presence.

(LAX/CDG weekly frequency average)
Image
Image

I’d like to see a AA and WN version of these charts. WN has a good bit of routes they haven’t brought back. I don’t know about capacity.


October 2019 v. 2022 isn't that many dropped routes for WN actually, but over the course of 2018-2022 they have dropped a ton.

(LAX was weekend only, and OAK/SAN weren't operating in October)
Image

Image

Thank you!
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 7975
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:07 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
So they are definitely doing some close-in right sizing for their network. Sad to see DL's position decline so much in IND versus pre covid and the NW days, but the fact is they feel there are better use of aircraft in what is, at least temporarily, a resource constrained environment.

What we have from Delta now is what they deem to be rightfully competitive with the resources they have in play. I have this feeling that as Delta, slowly, inducts more aircraft over the next 12 months we won't see a lot of the pre-covid capacity return. It seems like they have slightly shifted their network focus and I expect what we had this summer is about what we can expect for years to come, from DL.


I agree.

It's telling that even in a competitive market like BOS, they've been scaling back routes like CMH/IND-BOS all the way down to half of pre-covid capacity (2x daily). Even the new RDU-BNA flight was supposed to be 2x daily, and it has been drawn back to 1x daily.

I can't imagine they cut IND-DTW below 3x daily, but I wouldn't be surprised if LGA/JFK lose a frequency to IND

Also thought this was interesting, 11 highest frequency stations from October 2019
(2022 Friday frequency vs. 2019 Friday)
Image
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:13 pm

Capacity update:

F9 dropped IND-CUN for November-December.
G4 dropped IND-AUS for the Winter.

Image
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1rquk3cmgdj3 ... .xlsx?dl=0
 
kindeham
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:29 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Capacity update:

F9 dropped IND-CUN for November-December.
G4 dropped IND-AUS for the Winter.

Image
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1rquk3cmgdj3 ... .xlsx?dl=0


I am a bit confused by the range column here. It seems it should be connected to the percentage of 2019 seats, but isn't. What does it relate to?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:35 pm

kindeham wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Capacity update:

F9 dropped IND-CUN for November-December.
G4 dropped IND-AUS for the Winter.

Image
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1rquk3cmgdj3 ... .xlsx?dl=0


I am a bit confused by the range column here. It seems it should be connected to the percentage of 2019 seats, but isn't. What does it relate to?


That column is off because I filtered it wrong, was too lazy to go back.

Image
 
flyboy80
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:05 pm

Am I seeing this right: IND-DTW showing only two flights (a mainline am, a connection pm) for last week of October into November. Second week of November showing back to 4x.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:48 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
Am I seeing this right: IND-DTW showing only two flights (a mainline am, a connection pm) for last week of October into November. Second week of November showing back to 4x.


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