Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2022

greenair727 · Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:56 pm

No C-Band 5G buffer at CLE? Such buffers will be at CAK, DTW, PIT, IND, LGA, JFK, EWR, MDW, ORD and 41 other airports in the US.

https://simpleflying.com/faa-50-airports-5g/

Citrus1492 · Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:10 pm

greenair727 wrote:
No C-Band 5G buffer at CLE? Such buffers will be at CAK, DTW, PIT, IND, LGA, JFK, EWR, MDW, ORD and 41 other airports in the US.

https://simpleflying.com/faa-50-airports-5g/

Curious if the phone companies or the FCC will be liable if a crash is caused by this radio altimeter interference.

MohawkWeekend · Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:11 pm

I've posted numerous times regarding my daughters monthly trips to MCO on Spirit and F9 from CLE. Well she scored the winner for a mid-week 3 day trip to MCO in middle of February. $50 round trip on F9.
SMH

Citrus1492 · Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:41 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
I've posted numerous times regarding my daughters monthly trips to MCO on Spirit and F9 from CLE. Well she scored the winner for a mid-week 3 day trip to MCO in middle of February. $50 round trip on F9.
SMH

Their 321s have 240 seats. Maybe half of that number paid that same fare. The other half likely paid more. F9 still making a couple thousand profit on that flight.

greenair727 · Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:35 pm

Citrus1492 wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
No C-Band 5G buffer at CLE? Such buffers will be at CAK, DTW, PIT, IND, LGA, JFK, EWR, MDW, ORD and 41 other airports in the US.

https://simpleflying.com/faa-50-airports-5g/

Curious if the phone companies or the FCC will be liable if a crash is caused by this radio altimeter interference.

Don't know. But I don't like CLE being excluded when every airport around is included. But it can't only be based on level of "importance" as CAK is on the list and ATL is not. I hope this isn't a test by the FAA plan to see if there are more incidents at some airports without the buffer (control group) and less at airports with the buffer---to test if the altimeter issues are real or not.

Trk1 · Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:38 pm

While it might be nice to have a $50 RT fare to Orlando--if we want an airport better than a greyhound station for the future it will not happen. A company can not make a profit at fares like this and will be unwilling to pay for airport improvements. I hope we can make a better choice but if not never complain about Hopkins

joeman · Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:16 pm

I see the CLE website has removed G4 as a carrier, not added AS (like RDU with FI already) but has kept SY in the list. Curious after the CLE service add announcement a couple years ago followed by a slew of of other city adds by that airline instead so far.

izbtmnhd · Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:25 pm

Trk1 wrote:
While it might be nice to have a $50 RT fare to Orlando--if we want an airport better than a greyhound station for the future it will not happen. A company can not make a profit at fares like this and will be unwilling to pay for airport improvements. I hope we can make a better choice but if not never complain about Hopkins

In fairness, NK will be improving and expanding their counter space in the near future and are working with the airport to improve their gate space at A. Not sure why NK was picked on here but the city needs to work with all carriers on the existing master plan. I don't believe their stance is a definite "no". The only "no" carrier whined and then fled to CAK.

fun2fly · Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:50 pm

FWIW, Mayor Bibb was just on WTAM 1100 and they specifically asked him about his plans for the airport. He said when he was young he flew Continental to London direct round trip and would like a similar service for CLE as he knows that flights like that make the region more attractive to businesses. At least it was the right response and good that he personally enjoyed the CO direct to LON flight.

They also asked him about the airport facility plan. He said, as an executive he's learned to talk to his customers and would start the process of improvement by talking to the frequent fliers first.

At least it wasn't "I'll get back to you on it." Much better answers than Frank J.

joeman · Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:56 pm

fun2fly wrote:
FWIW, Mayor Bibb was just on WTAM 1100 and they specifically asked him about his plans for the airport. He said when he was young he flew Continental to London direct round trip and would like a similar service for CLE as he knows that flights like that make the region more attractive to businesses. At least it was the right response and good that he personally enjoyed the CO direct to LON flight.

They also asked him about the airport facility plan. He said, as an executive he's learned to talk to his customers and would start the process of improvement by talking to the frequent fliers first.

At least it wasn't "I'll get back to you on it." Much better answers than Frank J.

Good to hear an acknowledgement that CLE may be a little behind in the aviation world/associated business opportunities, the business world that probably primarily pays for city improvement funding whether there is a beneficial return or not.

masseybrown · Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:18 pm

The Feds came out with their October passenger data before the airport could get around to it. The federal numbers are always lower that the airport's version because they reflect only scheduled flights whereas the airport includes charters, military, and private aviation. So after that boring explanation, October total CLE passengers by federal count were 696,629, up from 346,441 the year before. For the year to Oct 31, 2021 totaled 5,688,647.

avtcle · Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:40 pm

Load Factors for September 2021 are out (INTL LOADS FROM 2021-06)

United Airlines
CLE-MCO: 73%
CLE-FLL: 84%
CLE-RSW: 70%
CLE-LAX: 84%
CLE-SFO: 70%
CLE-DEN: 93%
CLE-IAH: 71%
CLE-IAD: 78%
CLE-ORD: 76%
CLE-EWR: 73%
CLE-CHS: 77%
CLE-PWM: 83%
CLE-MYR: 49%
CLE-PNS: 67%
CLE-HHH: 75%
CLE-CUN: 95%

Frontier Airlines
CLE-MCO: 79%
CLE-RSW: 74%
CLE-LAS: 79%
CLE-PHX: 81%
CLE-DEN: 85%
CLE-CUN: 87%
CLE-MIA: 73%
CLE-SRQ: 89%
CLE-TPA: 80%
CLE-RDU: 77%
CLE-ATL: 71%

Spirit Airlines
CLE-MCO: 76%
CLE-FLL: 76%
CLE-LAX: 62%
CLE-LAS: 73%
CLE-MYR: 58%
CLE-TPA: 77%
CLE-ATL: 70%

American Airlines
CLE-DFW: 80%
CLE-DCA: 70%
CLE-ORD: 82%
CLE-LGA: 74%
CLE-MIA: 90%
CLE-CLT: 84%
CLE-PHL: 75%

Delta Airlines
CLE-DTW: 68%
CLE-JFK: 75%
CLE-LGA: 79%
CLE-BOS: 60%
CLE-ATL: 69%
CLE-MSP: 81%

Southwest Airlines
CLE-MCO: 78%
CLE-LAS: 96%
CLE-PHX: 93%
CLE-DEN: 87%
CLE-MDW: 86%
CLE-SRQ: 67%
CLE-TPA: 45%
CLE-ATL: 70%
CLE-STL: 80%
CLE-BWI: 74%
CLE-BNA: 89%

JetBlue Airways:
CLE-FLL: 70%
CLE-BOS: 72%

Allegiant Air
CLE-SRQ: 91%
CLE-CHS: 60%
CLE-SAV: 75%

Viva Aerobus
CLE-CUN: 71%

greenair727 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:11 pm

greenair727 wrote:
No C-Band 5G buffer at CLE? Such buffers will be at CAK, DTW, PIT, IND, LGA, JFK, EWR, MDW, ORD and 41 other airports in the US.

https://simpleflying.com/faa-50-airports-5g/

This issue is finally getting wider press outside of just aviation circles, as it should: https://www.reuters.com/technology/excl ... 2022-01-17

highflier92660 · Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:07 pm

This may be of some help: https://www.nperf.com/en/map/US/5150529 ... ss/signal/

As I understand it CLE was determined to be safely distant from 5G towers. As you can see from the 5G map, from the southwest there are no 5G towers proximate to either runway 6L or 6R final approach courses. From the northeast, the towers were determined to be safely distant from the instrument approach courses to runways 24L and 24R. If anyone can relay the information where these towers are located near CLE, please post their locations.

izbtmnhd · Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:18 am

March NK:

MCO 3x daily
RSW 2x daily
FLL 2x daily
TPA daily
MIA daily
ATL daily
LAS daily
LAX 5x weekly
MSY 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
CUN Sat only

greenair727 · Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:35 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
March NK:

MCO 3x daily
RSW 2x daily
FLL 2x daily
TPA daily
MIA daily
ATL daily
LAS daily
LAX 5x weekly
MSY 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
CUN Sat only

That's a lot of Florida! Is NK's March CLE schedule an increase or decrease from prior months?

izbtmnhd · Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:42 am

greenair727 wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
March NK:

MCO 3x daily
RSW 2x daily
FLL 2x daily
TPA daily
MIA daily
ATL daily
LAS daily
LAX 5x weekly
MSY 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
CUN Sat only

That's a lot of Florida! Is NK's March CLE schedule an increase or decrease from prior months?

Roughly 3 more daily flights than they are operating in Jan.

Largest overall operation since summer 2019. Makes me wonder what summer 2022 will be like.

greenair727 · Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:44 am

highflier92660 wrote:
This may be of some help: https://www.nperf.com/en/map/US/5150529 ... ss/signal/

As I understand it CLE was determined to be safely distant from 5G towers. As you can see from the 5G map, from the southwest there are no 5G towers proximate to either runway 6L or 6R final approach courses. From the northeast, the towers were determined to be safely distant from the instrument approach courses to runways 24L and 24R. If anyone can relay the information where these towers are located near CLE, please post their locations.

Thanks for posting that. That does help explain why CLE was not on the 'danger' list. That link was for Verizon. Does AT&T and Verizon share the same towers? I know they're competitors but tower-sharing is not unheard of.

CLEguy · Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:51 pm

Here's a positive story about the snow removal at CLE during this week's snow storm. There is a report of an AA flight waiting for 3 hours for a gate. I did not hear about that. But I could imagine they couldn't clear snow away fast enough.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/loc ... 1E5jv-OnOg

I had the "pleasure" of landing at 6:45 a.m. on Monday in the height of the snowstorm, on the Spirit red-eye from LAX. The approach and landing itself was uneventful (very firm and a bit of sliding upon landing), but the taxi from the end of 6R to gate A2 took a most circuitous route (back past the de-icing pad, around C, B, then A) and took a full 22 minutes. I assume they followed the only cleared taxiways available at the time.

MohawkWeekend · Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:38 pm

Does the airport use snow melters for the gate areas or are they loading dump trucks like they used to?

masseybrown · Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:41 pm

A very sketchy report using data from the airport says CLE had 7.28 million passengers in 2021, up from 4.1 million in 2020, down from 10.04 million in 2019. 7.28 million is just slightly under 2014, the year UA shut its hub.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022 ... ounds.html

CLEguy · Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:57 pm

masseybrown wrote:
A very sketchy report using data from the airport says CLE had 7.28 million passengers in 2021, up from 4.1 million in 2020, down from 10.04 million in 2019. 7.28 million is just slightly under 2014, the year UA shut its hub.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022 ... ounds.html

Interesting quote: "While the pandemic continues to depress air travel, Cleveland Hopkins is recovering faster than the rest of the country, according to U.S. Department of Transportation figures.

At 7.28 million, Cleveland’s passenger count in 2021 is 72% of its pre-pandemic, 2019 level; nationwide, passenger numbers are at about 68% of what they were in 2019, a record year for air travel in the United States and across the globe."

masseybrown · Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:17 pm

CLEguy wrote:
Interesting quote: "While the pandemic continues to depress air travel, Cleveland Hopkins is recovering faster than the rest of the country, according to U.S. Department of Transportation figures.

At 7.28 million, Cleveland’s passenger count in 2021 is 72% of its pre-pandemic, 2019 level; nationwide, passenger numbers are at about 68% of what they were in 2019, a record year for air travel in the United States and across the globe."

The quote is right. If you look at numbers from earlier in the year, CLE was quick off the blocks in its recovery, and WAY ahead of many other airports. Since then, however, the difference has diminished and the rest of the country either has caught up or is about to.

cledaybuck · Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:11 pm

Article about the CLE master plan.
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022 ... first.html

fun2fly · Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:42 pm

For the past couple of years on this thread, I've mentioned this. Most scoffed at the remarks, but I know it's out there. The real issue: Does CLE timing and the fund availability timing match? If the Government foots a larger portion than normal, the feasibility of it happening increases exponentially. The quote below is much better than "My new boss, Bibb, put the project on hold."

From the CLE masterplan article:
Kennedy said he is determined to keep those airline fees as low as possible by seeking other sources of revenue, including part of $15 billion in federal infrastructure funding available to all U.S. airports over the next five years.

“We’ll position ourselves to compete for as much of that as we can,” he said. “We’re exploring those issues now. We don’t want to miss the opportunity.”

ncflyer · Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:05 pm

Very hopeful article and kudos to Susan Glaser for keeping it in the news. Wish there was a Bibb quote. I’m getting the sense that Jackson was in office so long that the demands on Bibb are positively tremendous— pent up demand. So we may not hear from him in a while on the airport which is more reason I’m glad Kennedy Is sticking around.

masseybrown · Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:49 pm

I wish Director Kennedy had said something about whether he can actually foresee the required expansion trigger (a 10.9 million traffic level in 2024) - he might have offered a traffic estimate for 2022 for starters. It sounded as if he is still wearing the Jacksom Administration muzzle.

plinth857 · Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:06 pm

CLEguy wrote:
Here's a positive story about the snow removal at CLE during this week's snow storm. There is a report of an AA flight waiting for 3 hours for a gate. I did not hear about that. But I could imagine they couldn't clear snow away fast enough.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/loc ... 1E5jv-OnOg

I have a hunch that the delay in American finding a "usable gate" has more to do with the staffing levels on the ground. This has happened to me a couple times in the last few months, but only on American.

avtcle · Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:55 pm

Looks like UA is doing some housekeeping with their spring schedule.

CLE-LAS now ending in early April instead of early May. The route is on a two week hiatus and is scheduled to be back Feb. 1st.

CLE-PHX upgraded to 737-900 through early May. This route survived the January and February network slashing.

CLE-TPA extended through early May, upgraded to 737-900.

I’m surprised that PHX seems to be the route that is performing better for them... When they cut the hub PHX was one of the only mainline routes that was pulled. LAS stuck around until 2016. Would be nice to see it stick around. their CLE-LAS flight looked to be getting some dismal loads in mid January, while the PHX flights are still filling up.

izbtmnhd · Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:02 pm

I’m hearing rumors F9 may be back on CLE-SEA this summer.

CLEguy · Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:29 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I’m hearing rumors F9 may be back on CLE-SEA this summer.

Wonder if they want to compete with Alaska. I would much prefer reliable, daily service on AS.

greenair727 · Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:38 am

CLEguy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I’m hearing rumors F9 may be back on CLE-SEA this summer.

Wonder if they want to compete with Alaska. I would much prefer reliable, daily service on AS.

If F9 were smart, they fly CLE-PDX instead rather go head-to-head with AS, or maybe they think they can kick AS off the route. Would be better for all parties---CLE, PDX, SEA, AS, F9--if F9 did PDX instead. Or is really enough demand for two carriers on the route?

ncflyer · Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:16 pm

You can tell we are all still smarting from the WOW Icelandair fiasco and don't want same to happen to Seattle!

It's behind paywall but the PD has a VERY encouraging article on Bibb's willingness to consider independent management for West Side market-- it's just unbelievable how that jewel has been managed in to the ground. Vendors are very encouraged at new administration's willingness to listen. This has been talked about for decades-- and nothing has happened but the facility has been rotting and losing tenants. It's early days but this bodes very well for an administration that will let the experts (i.e. Kennedy) be the experts. I remain bullish.

avtcle · Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:56 pm

Folks at Hopkins seem confident they can land us a flight to Europe this year, but will need financial help.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevel ... utType=amp

CLEguy · Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:14 pm

avtcle wrote:
Folks at Hopkins seem confident they can land us a flight to Europe this year, but will need financial help.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevel ... utType=amp

I'm glad the topic of transatlantic service is being discussed publicly after a couple years of mostly quiet (obviously due to the pandemic). The goal is to secure the flight this year for service starting in 2023. This makes sense, and hopefully, demand will have returned to more normal levels by then. With the new air service development funding from JobsOhio, I'm cautiously optimistic this might actually happen. The key, as the article states, is finding service to the right hub (LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA, DUB??).

Also, “We need our community to do more,” said Robert Kennedy, who asked that businesses or community members reach out to him if they want to help in the effort (he provided his phone number, 216-265-6022, and email address, rkennedy@clevelandairport.com). Let's hope companies actually take him up on his offer.

Also mentioned were domestic priority destinations, currently without nonstop service from Cleveland: San Diego, Austin, San Antonio, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Salt Lake City and Portland, Oregon.

fun2fly · Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:27 pm

avtcle wrote:
Folks at Hopkins seem confident they can land us a flight to Europe this year, but will need financial help.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevel ... utType=amp

Good to hear the optimism. 2022 TATL summer flight or 2023?

Interesting comment about the business community not getting behind the EI flight to DUB. Eaton reference?

avtcle · Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:41 pm

^ “Our target is to have trans-Atlantic service in the summer of 2023,” said Airport Director Robert Kennedy. “Those decisions will be made this year.”

ncflyer · Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:43 pm

My reading between the lines of that article: don't hold your breath. Head of GCP asking for more studying. Companies don't agree on what destination is most important to serve, nor do they have a good sense of their travel patterns emerging from COVID. EI is dead in the water due to lack of community support, sounds like they moved on and not just because of COVID. Head of Team NEO had a very tepid quote. Don't seeing this being a high priority for the region like it was for PIT or STL.

MohawkWeekend · Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:46 pm

Actually would much rather see the flight to Iceland back with direct service on to Europe. With the corporate FF's in the area already wed to certain airlines and their FF plans, it has IMO the best chance for success with the minimum subsidies.

highflier92660 · Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:50 pm

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022 ... -help.html

Here we go again. Most everybody with a rudimentary sense of economics knows that Cleveland has grown light years past that rust belt town where a late mayor set his hair ablaze with a blow torch. Local corporations and our world class health industry have ties to Europe. A branch of the Cleveland Clinic is on Grosvenor Place in London, a Callaway golf driver shot away from Buckingham Palace. Now all it takes is money.

AC4500 · Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:24 pm

greenair727 wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
I’m hearing rumors F9 may be back on CLE-SEA this summer.

Wonder if they want to compete with Alaska. I would much prefer reliable, daily service on AS.

If F9 were smart, they fly CLE-PDX instead rather go head-to-head with AS, or maybe they think they can kick AS off the route. Would be better for all parties---CLE, PDX, SEA, AS, F9--if F9 did PDX instead. Or is really enough demand for two carriers on the route?

If CLE-SEA comes back, CLE-PDX will definitely come back with it. I just don't see why F9 would rather take on an already served route when CLE-PDX has nothing.

They might run a split schedule for CLE-PDX/SEA. (e.g. CLE-SEA at 4x weekly, CLE-PDX at 3x weekly or vice versa).

avtcle · Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:22 pm

That is how the route was originally operated in 2015/16/17 ^

Was CLE-SEA MON/WED/FRI/SAT and CLE-PDX on SUN/TUES/THURS. They shifted the PDX route to SFO in 2018.

ncflyer · Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:56 pm

So why is F9 serving MIA when AA and NK have that one very well covered with daily service? Why are they serving ATL when DL, WN, NK have that one well covered with daily service? Why would SEA be any different in how they evaluate it compared to MIA and ATL?

luckyone · Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:50 am

highflier92660 wrote:
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/01/cleveland-hopkins-officials-making-push-for-nonstop-flight-to-europe-but-route-will-need-financial-help.html

Here we go again. Most everybody with a rudimentary sense of economics knows that Cleveland has grown light years past that rust belt town where a late mayor set his hair ablaze with a blow torch. Local corporations and our world class health industry have ties to Europe. A branch of the Cleveland Clinic is on Grosvenor Place in London, a Callaway golf driver shot away from Buckingham Palace. Now all it takes is money.

I’ve heard this on this board a few times now. The Cleveland Clinic will NOT be sending enough traffic between the two sites to factor as support of any kind on a route to London. Cleveland Clinic already has operations in other countries (Abu Dhabi) and other states, and based on historical trends, there will only be a handful of people doing such travel a month. That’s it. There will little medical tourism between the UK and US. UK medical tourism goes to Asia. I’m not saying a route to London won’t work. But the Clinic (nor UH or Metro) will not be playing any significance in it.

luckyone · Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:52 am

avtcle wrote:
That is how the route was originally operated in 2015/16/17 ^

Was CLE-SEA MON/WED/FRI/SAT and CLE-PDX on SUN/TUES/THURS. They shifted the PDX route to SFO in 2018.

They had better seriously undercut AS on price if they resume with a red eye east bound. Several years back I flew between the two cities quite a bit, and chose to connect or fly out of CMH or PIT precisely because of that red eye.

fun2fly · Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:47 pm

luckyone wrote:
highflier92660 wrote:
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/01/cleveland-hopkins-officials-making-push-for-nonstop-flight-to-europe-but-route-will-need-financial-help.html

Here we go again. Most everybody with a rudimentary sense of economics knows that Cleveland has grown light years past that rust belt town where a late mayor set his hair ablaze with a blow torch. Local corporations and our world class health industry have ties to Europe. A branch of the Cleveland Clinic is on Grosvenor Place in London, a Callaway golf driver shot away from Buckingham Palace. Now all it takes is money.

I’ve heard this on this board a few times now. The Cleveland Clinic will NOT be sending enough traffic between the two sites to factor as support of any kind on a route to London. Cleveland Clinic already has operations in other countries (Abu Dhabi) and other states, and based on historical trends, there will only be a handful of people doing such travel a month. That’s it. There will little medical tourism between the UK and US. UK medical tourism goes to Asia. I’m not saying a route to London won’t work. But the Clinic (nor UH or Metro) will not be playing any significance in it.

There is a good amount of traffic to the ME and TATL from CCF. The question is would a 1 stop CLE>LHR>ME ?? be more beneficial to CCF than the current CLE>XXX>FRA>ME ?? Same for every other corporate customer going to a secondary (2 stop) destination vs. a 1 stop. You'll flip some one stoppers too from NYC or whatever gateway to LHR. No idea if AA/BA is up for this however, but with the slot requirements, maybe they are more interested. I doubt it works on anyone other than AA/BA. UA doesn't have the connections to support it, although they do have an appropriate sized 752.

In CLE, while AA has upped their game on flights, I'm not so sure how they've done on corporate contracts which is what is needed to support these type of flights. I know UA historically was the most entrenched when they had the hub, then DL made a large push after that. Anyone?

Bibb did specifically mention getting a flight to LHR in the interview I listened to.

luckyone · Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:51 pm

fun2fly wrote:
luckyone wrote:
highflier92660 wrote:
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/01/cleveland-hopkins-officials-making-push-for-nonstop-flight-to-europe-but-route-will-need-financial-help.html

Here we go again. Most everybody with a rudimentary sense of economics knows that Cleveland has grown light years past that rust belt town where a late mayor set his hair ablaze with a blow torch. Local corporations and our world class health industry have ties to Europe. A branch of the Cleveland Clinic is on Grosvenor Place in London, a Callaway golf driver shot away from Buckingham Palace. Now all it takes is money.

I’ve heard this on this board a few times now. The Cleveland Clinic will NOT be sending enough traffic between the two sites to factor as support of any kind on a route to London. Cleveland Clinic already has operations in other countries (Abu Dhabi) and other states, and based on historical trends, there will only be a handful of people doing such travel a month. That’s it. There will little medical tourism between the UK and US. UK medical tourism goes to Asia. I’m not saying a route to London won’t work. But the Clinic (nor UH or Metro) will not be playing any significance in it.

There is a good amount of traffic to the ME and TATL from CCF. The question is would a 1 stop CLE>LHR>ME ?? be more beneficial to CCF than the current CLE>XXX>FRA>ME ?? Same for every other corporate customer going to a secondary (2 stop) destination vs. a 1 stop. You'll flip some one stoppers too from NYC or whatever gateway to LHR. No idea if AA/BA is up for this however, but with the slot requirements, maybe they are more interested. I doubt it works on anyone other than AA/BA. UA doesn't have the connections to support it, although they do have an appropriate sized 752.

In CLE, while AA has upped their game on flights, I'm not so sure how they've done on corporate contracts which is what is needed to support these type of flights. I know UA historically was the most entrenched when they had the hub, then DL made a large push after that. Anyone?

Bibb did specifically mention getting a flight to LHR in the interview I listened to.

I should clarify: CCF business travel. There are indeed quite a bit of passengers from the ME seeking care at the Cleveland Clinic.

greenair727 · Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:11 pm

luckyone wrote:
I should clarify: CCF business travel. There are indeed quite a bit of passengers from the ME seeking care at the Cleveland Clinic.

On the patient side, are there numbers anywhere of where in the ME specifically, by country or city? Or, if no hard numbers, an estimate of pax (patients + family) from KSA, UAE, Jordan, etc.

luckyone · Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:21 pm

greenair727 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
I should clarify: CCF business travel. There are indeed quite a bit of passengers from the ME seeking care at the Cleveland Clinic.

On the patient side, are there numbers anywhere of where in the ME specifically, by country or city? Or, if no hard numbers, an estimate of pax (patients + family) from KSA, UAE, Jordan, etc.

I don't have hard numbers, but typically they tend to come more from the Gulf states than the Levant.

masseybrown · Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:54 pm

luckyone wrote:
I’ve heard this on this board a few times now. The Cleveland Clinic will NOT be sending enough traffic between the two sites to factor as support of any kind on a route to London.

Every time a Cleveland organization makes a significant expansion or acquisition in the UK (or a UK group does the same in Cleveland, people say, "Oh but it's not really significant in terms of a non-stop flight." And I suppose that one isn't all on its own; but these things happen regularly. Transdigm made a huge UK acquisition last year. Parker-Hannifin, RPM, Diebold, London Stock Exchange, etc, etc. Everyone of these adds another increment of traffic to what since the 90s was enough demand for at least ONE flight to Europe and one could argue for two.

My next gripe is with the school of thought that says, "But one-stop connections through (whatever hub) are SO easy." No they're not; the trip is at least two hours longer and the likelihood of delay is doubled. There's no substitute for a non-stop; the traffic exists; and the city should go after it, which apparently the city is doing. And given demand, it should probably be London first.

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