A five minute ride from the Brookpark Rapid lot to the airport is perfectly safe. I do it all the time on my day trip commutes to O'Hare

Trk1 wrote:

A five minute ride from the Brookpark Rapid lot to the airport is perfectly safe. I do it all the time on my day trip commutes to O'Hare

Agreed. I think the fear of riding RTA is way overblown. The one murder on RTA this year was on the HealthLine and it apparently was a "crime of passion" not just a random act of violence.

Nothing is stopping people now from using the Rapid and parking in one of their lots. Wasn't that one of the reason the line was extended to the airport 50 years ago? There used to be a lot of ads in the media about doing that. So why aren't people doing that now considering the fare is $2.50 each way and the parking is free? On a week trip, that would save you $85 compared to Park n Fly.

Are people willing to arrive on a 11 pm flight to hop on a Rapid and ride to Triskett Station? Heck I'm not sure people in NYC feel safe on a train from EWR at 11 pm.

According to the rta website there’s a limit on overnight parking depending on the line and rta security needs to be advised ahead of time you’re parking overnight. For this idea to work there would need to be advertising to promote the idea and more importantly fenced/guarded lots. And of course the rta would have to change it’s posted policy on overnight parking.

Without secured lots I’d be more worried about car security over personal security as the rta safety record is just fine.

The idea would cost some money to implement.

http://www.riderta.com/parking

Yes I am talking about a secure lot that is charging for parking. The train is a shuttle. This is nothing to do with the
Current few free spots. This is to attract Airport parking that we do not have room for now. The charges would be a money maker for rta. Of course the lots would be secured. The parking charges would defer the cost. Start with brookpark as see how it goes

Why do I have the feeling we here are of the same suburban demographic? The following 2:40 video encapsulates many people's hidden apprehension of riding aboard an urban fixed-rail rapid to Cleveland Hopkins airport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJG3cFrkkcc

I have no problem riding the rapid at any point in time to the airport; I've been on it during the very late (or very early, depending on your perspective) hours, and I haven't had any issues.

I did park my car overnight at the Brookpark station multiple times. However, once it was broken into, it pretty much negated any savings I had had over the months. If they've improved their security in these lots, I would happily use it again.

Well at least the RTA gives you the following safety suggestions from their website. Not sure any of these would come to mind at Park-N-Fly -
http://www.riderta.com/transitpolice/safetytipsAuto safety

If you are using an RTA Park-N-Ride lot, keep these precautions in mind:

Always lock your car and close the windows after entering or leaving your car.
Have your keys ready and check the back seat before opening the door.
If you have car trouble in an RTA parking lot, contact the Transit Police. Help will be sent. Do not entrust your life and safety to a stranger.

Here you go:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022 ... utType=amp

The company running the Cleveland Hopkins Sheraton is millions in debt and the hotel could be torn down for more airport parking.

wahoo! This hotel needed to be torn down or renovated on the exterior 25 years ago, it is so tired looking and screams "dying rust belt city" in a way that is not a good impression on travelers. Even the brand name, who the heck even knew Sheratons still exist!!

Parking at the hotel is already used as airport parking. So assuming this would be surface parking (since the city could have replaced the long-term garage that Ricky Smith tore down, but still hasn't), how many spots would the city get from the Sheraton's building footprint---maybe 70 spots? Hardly seems worth it to lose a 243-room hotel over. A better use would be to fix all the problems and convert some floors to office and the others for a smaller hotel. Just because there is no hub doesn't mean people don't need a place to stay. The Marriott on W. 150 has guests and the hub has been closed since 2014. It could definitely work if there are willing parties, including the receiver who can influence the parties, new parties, and the process.

greenair727 wrote:

Parking at the hotel is already used as airport parking. So assuming this would be surface parking (since the city could have replaced the long-term garage that Ricky Smith tore down, but still hasn't), how many spots would the city get from the Sheraton's building footprint---maybe 70 spots? Hardly seems worth it to lose a 243-room hotel over. A better use would be to fix all the problems and convert some floors to office and the others for a smaller hotel. Just because there is no hub doesn't mean people don't need a place to stay. The Marriott on W. 150 has guests and the hub has been closed since 2014. It could definitely work if there are willing parties, including the receiver who can influence the parties, new parties, and the process.

The city of Cleveland's lack of vision is always astounding to me. More surface parking? I get the airport does need more close-in parking, but it needs another garage. That footprint will not solve the current parking issues.

You would think that they could get the private sector to build the garage and kick back a percentage to the city as a fee.

ncflyer wrote:

wahoo! This hotel needed to be torn down or renovated on the exterior 25 years ago, it is so tired looking and screams "dying rust belt city" in a way that is not a good impression on travelers. Even the brand name, who the heck even knew Sheratons still exist!!

While I agree the hotel needs help, nothing says Cleveland like more concrete and asphalt. There are Sheratons right outside of IAH and YOW. They do exist.

Also nothing keeps the "dying rust belt city" mantra more alive than local people who constantly repeat "dying rust belt city" when talking about Cleveland.

On the topic of the safety for cars being stolen at the airport vs parked overnight at Rapid stations, I just came across this data point:

"The reports of guns stolen comes to light as the airport has had a spike in cars stolen. Thirteen vehicles were taken in the first quarter of this year. There was just one during that time last year."

https://fox8.com/news/i-team/the-worst- ... s-airport/

The Marriott also went through receivership recently and is now rebranded, so probably not a good example of the potential of the Sheraton. https://www.ideastream.org/news/marriot ... lock-again.

Also note that the Hilton Garden Inn Cleveland Airport has also been thru bankruptcy recently

well ALL hotels went through hardship from covid and the lack of travel. my point about the 150 st. marriott is its an upscale "airport" hotel like the Sheraton and it survived United's de-hubbing---so the hub being the basis for the Sheraton's existence is crap, as the article was suggesting. There's still a place in the market for it. And if it needs to be a little smaller, that's fine, just convert some of the floors to another use like offices. Or even apartments.

Does anyone know if the City owns the land that the Sheraton is on?

If I'm not having a senior moment, wasn't there a SOHIO gas station just to the west of the hotel?

^Per the article linked above about the sheraton, yes, the city owns the land. "In addition to falling behind on rent, the current owners have not abided by another requirement of their lease with the city, to invest $500,000 in capital improvements in the airport annually, according to court documents."

I don't personally remember a Sohio Station to the west of the hotel, but there may have been, I just don't remember it.

CLEguy wrote:

CLEguy wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Love the RTA idea. Parkers would need to be informed of RTAs schedule as the trains aren’t real frequent especially on weekends and outside of rush hour. Perhaps the airport could operate shuttles or even Ubers during the hours when RTA doesn’t operate, would hate to miss the last train due to a flight that gets in late.

I think this is an excellent idea, too! We should get the word out so the city and RTA hear it. Maybe let Susan Glaser of cleveland.com, know?

By the way, the Red Line operates trains every 15 minutes (4 trains per hour) from the airport, from 3:52 a.m. until 1:22 a.m., so this should cover just about most flights even with irregular ops. If parking were secure, I'd consider parking at an RTA lot!

I did email Susan Glaser about this great suggestion. I'll let you know if she replies.

I did hear from Susan and she said she would share this "interesting idea" with Dir. Kennedy.

ncflyer wrote:

wahoo! This hotel needed to be torn down or renovated on the exterior 25 years ago, it is so tired looking and screams "dying rust belt city" in a way that is not a good impression on travelers. Even the brand name, who the heck even knew Sheratons still exist!!

I stayed in it once maybe 20 years ago; it was a pretty primitive - couldn't even do a decent (i.e. hot) breakfast. DCA used to have an on-site hotel. They tore it down years ago to expand the terminal; shuttle buses from nearby hotels do the job well enough. I think CLE will survive nicely with the sme arrangements.

masseybrown wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

wahoo! This hotel needed to be torn down or renovated on the exterior 25 years ago, it is so tired looking and screams "dying rust belt city" in a way that is not a good impression on travelers. Even the brand name, who the heck even knew Sheratons still exist!!

I stayed in it once maybe 20 years ago; it was a pretty primitive - couldn't even do a decent (i.e. hot) breakfast. DCA used to have an on-site hotel. They tore it down years ago to expand the terminal; shuttle buses from nearby hotels do the job well enough. I think CLE will survive nicely with the sme arrangements.

MWAA tore it down for terminal Improvements. City of Cleveland would be tearing it down for, what, 100 surface parking spaces?

Also, Crystal City or whatever Amazon is trying to call that area now is a stone throw from DCA. Certain CLE "airport" hotels are located in Middleburg Heights, Strongsville and North Olmsted. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison IMHO.

It would be torn down because it's not part of the master plan and why invest millions more in something that is not in the long-term plans. Creating 100 parking spots isof secondary importance. None of us know for sure but I'd bet good money the financial problems of that dinosaur predate COVID-- that article would not been planted in the PD if the powers that be felt it had potential for a turnaround. .

I have not been in the interior in decades but the exterior needs complete renovation, it's got a 1970s Soviet look. From Massey's email, ditto on the interiors need for renovation.

Qatar Airways widebody was parked on the ramp nearest RWY 28 this morning.

ncflyer wrote:

It would be torn down because it's not part of the master plan and why invest millions more in something that is not in the long-term plans.

Disagree with this. It assumes the master plan is "right" or should be implemented. Does the master plan put the rental car agencies back on the airport proper? We shouldn't do that. We should use airport space for higher uses like office or terminal space, lounges, cargo areas, etc. Not putting car rental places on the airport after we spent millions moving them off the airport.

The trend around the country has been to keep enough cars onsite or else connect via train-- it's a huge customer satisfier to walk to a rental car rather than drive halfway to Toledo and it way reduces those diesel spewing vehicles from running circles and causing congestion and costing big money. The car agencies can use the Grayton lot for excess car storage and car servicing.

The master plan if approved and implemented would in fact move rentals back on site according to the plan Kennedy presented..

The money to move rental cars offsite was the right decision 25 years ago but that investment is a long ago sunk cost, no reason to keep investing out there and paying drivers to run circles. If Midway can have on site rental cars , surely CLE can too with a better facility.

masseybrown wrote:

I stayed in it once maybe 20 years ago; it was a pretty primitive - couldn't even do a decent (i.e. hot) breakfast. DCA used to have an on-site hotel. They tore it down years ago to expand the terminal; shuttle buses from nearby hotels do the job well enough. I think CLE will survive nicely with the sme arrangements.

The likely demise of the Sheraton Hopkins is something I've known for awhile. This property was never a rival to airport hotels like the Grand Hyatt SFO, but even a decade ago it was never a complete eyesore. As late as 2018 there was a decent buffet breakfast available to guests on the 9th floor, located in a room adjacent to the elevators. The last time I stayed there, guests on that same floor (charged the same executive rate) had no maid service available on weekends; I had to search and plead for fresh sheets, pillow cases and towels. Imagine trying that in a hotel in Beachwood?

Any argument that a demolition of the Sheraton would offer-up addition parking spaces is ludicrous. What it would be doing is removing a Cleveland airport hotel embarrassment.

Here’s how CLE looks for Spirit after their 5-6% network wide reduction for the Summer. They claim these reductions will only be for June-August to avoid an operational meltdown.

CLE-MYR: 2.0
CLE-FLL: 1.6
CLE-MCO: 1.0
CLE-TPA: 1.0
CLE-ATL: 1.0
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-LAX: 1.0
CLE-MIA: 1.0

Gone for the summer are:
CLE-CUN, CLE-RSW, CLE-MSY

All scheduled back in Sept.

^that's a pretty grim list.

Cleveland Hopkins expecting record summer travel numbers. Possibly over 1 million passengers passing through CLE in July.

https://spectrumnews1.com/oh/cleveland/ ... ng-travel-

Both Starbucks locations are now back to normal hours. Concourse A's is open 5 AM-8 PM daily, Concourse C's is 5 AM-7 PM except Saturday (closes at 6).

avtcle wrote:

Here’s how CLE looks for Spirit after their 5-6% network wide reduction for the Summer. They claim these reductions will only be for June-August to avoid an operational meltdown.

CLE-MYR: 2.0
CLE-FLL: 1.6
CLE-MCO: 1.0
CLE-TPA: 1.0
CLE-ATL: 1.0
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-LAX: 1.0
CLE-MIA: 1.0

Gone for the summer are:
CLE-CUN, CLE-RSW, CLE-MSY

All scheduled back in Sept.

It feels like way more than 5-6% was cut. Numerous stations had just about everything cut except LAS & MCO.

Also, the renovated Dunkin' reopened last week (open 24 hours):

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... fxlIEqAAAA

greenair727 wrote:

^that's a pretty grim list.

It may also be reflective of people looking elsewhere for their travel needs. If Spirit is going to get me there, cheaply, today, with reasonable customer support, then I'd tolerate the miserable onboard experience. But lately they haven't really been able to do any of those things, so why shouldn't I just fly somebody else? About two weeks ago, a friend of mine had her flight canceled, at the gate, and was offered nothing. No rebook, no support. She ended up driving to Toledo and barely making an Allegiant flight.

SgtBarone wrote:

Also, the renovated Dunkin' reopened last week (open 24 hours):

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... fxlIEqAAAA

That's cool. The Dunkins is on the secure side of security, right? Given that the last departure is around 10pm and the first is around 6am, with some late arrivals in there, is there a big enough customer base to be open 24/7? I'm very glad that it is--and good for people who work at the airport. Is there enough demand between 11pm-4am?

greenair727 wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

Also, the renovated Dunkin' reopened last week (open 24 hours):

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... fxlIEqAAAA

That's cool. The Dunkins is on the secure side of security, right? Given that the last departure is around 10pm and the first is around 6am, with some late arrivals in there, is there a big enough customer base to be open 24/7? I'm very glad that it is--and good for people who work at the airport. Is there enough demand between 11pm-4am?

I believe they’ve always been open 24 hours, so the demand must be there. Plenty of people work 24 hours at CLE and it’s the only place open around the clock.

As others on the forum have been saying for a while, WN has little interest in CLE (June skeds reduced just under 20%). Such arrivals and departures as are surviving in the schedule seem poorly timed (either mid-day of very early/late) for business travel and not all that great for leisure either. Maybe it really is a question of fuel prices and pilot schedules; we'll see when their earnings come out on Wednesday.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/n ... ights.html

SgtBarone wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

Also, the renovated Dunkin' reopened last week (open 24 hours):

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... fxlIEqAAAA

That's cool. The Dunkins is on the secure side of security, right? Given that the last departure is around 10pm and the first is around 6am, with some late arrivals in there, is there a big enough customer base to be open 24/7? I'm very glad that it is--and good for people who work at the airport. Is there enough demand between 11pm-4am?

I believe they’ve always been open 24 hours, so the demand must be there. Plenty of people work 24 hours at CLE and it’s the only place open around the clock.

Also keep in mind the last arrivals are around 1am and security opens about 3:30, so it's really only a couple completely dead hours. And yes, as said, there is round the clock activity behind security even if there are no passengers@

I just wish I knew why WN was so meh on Cleveland-- when compared to other similar cities that aren't fortress hubs. I think others have advanced the theory that they didn't have aircraft at the time the UA hub closed, and then F9 and NK swooped in, and then poof the opportunity went away. I don't buy that completely, I mean we've never had daily service to big WN hubs DAL and HOU for instance. There has to be more to the story and something they see in the data that we don't.

masseybrown wrote:

As others on the forum have been saying for a while, WN has little interest in CLE (June skeds reduced just under 20%). Such arrivals and departures as are surviving in the schedule seem poorly timed (either mid-day of very early/late) for business travel and not all that great for leisure either. Maybe it really is a question of fuel prices and pilot schedules; we'll see when their earnings come out on Wednesday.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/n ... ights.html

masseybrown wrote:

As others on the forum have been saying for a while, WN has little interest in CLE (June skeds reduced just under 20%). Such arrivals and departures as are surviving in the schedule seem poorly timed (either mid-day of very early/late) for business travel and not all that great for leisure either. Maybe it really is a question of fuel prices and pilot schedules; we'll see when their earnings come out on Wednesday.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/n ... ights.html

Here is the breakdown of WN service out of CLE in Summer 2017:
2x ATL, 4x BWI, 7x MDW, 1x DEN, 1x LAS, 3x BNA, 1x PHX, and 2x STL (21 daily departures)

Here is the breakdown of WN service out of CLE in Summer 2022:
1x ATL, 2x BWI, 4x MDW, 1x DEN, 2x BNA, 1x STL (11 daily departures)
WN operating Saturday-only CLE-LAS/MCO/PHX/TPA nonstop service in addition to CLE-ATL/BWI/MDW/DEN/BNA/STL nonstop service in Summer 2022

I can certainly understand CLE having less nonstop service to MDW than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic with O&D demand to MDW being below pre-pandemic levels from CLE and other Midwestern cities.

Here is the PDEW of CLE-MDW from 2016 through 2021:
2016 - 198
2017 - 196
2018 - 168
2019 - 153
2020 - 39
2021 - 71

I can also understand WN only operating 1x daily nonstop between CLE and ATL with the connecting options that are available to Florida and some other destinations in the South from CLE through BNA or BWI on WN. CLE also has nonstop service to ATL on DL, F9, and NK in addition to WN.

ncflyer wrote:

I just wish I knew why WN was so meh on Cleveland-- when compared to other similar cities that aren't fortress hubs. I think others have advanced the theory that they didn't have aircraft at the time the UA hub closed, and then F9 and NK swooped in, and then poof the opportunity went away. I don't buy that completely, I mean we've never had daily service to big WN hubs DAL and HOU for instance. There has to be more to the story and something they see in the data that we don't.

CLE can probably support nonstop service the return of WN CLE-HOU nonstop service with UA currently being the only airline serving Houston nonstop from CLE. WN is also planning on further expanding in HOU with a few more gates being added at HOU (even though WN has made some cuts out of HOU in its 2022 flight schedules due to the operational issues that WN is currently facing), and WN's plans to further expand at HOU was discussed in the Houston Aviation Thread at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468481&start=50#p23204039.

CLE could probably support WN nonstop service to AUS and SAN with the amount of O&D demand that is there to both AUS and SAN from Greater Cleveland along with both AUS and SAN currently not having any nonstop service to CLE. WN also has significant FF bases in both Greater Austin and Greater San Diego to support CLE-AUS/SAN nonstop service on WN.

The PDEW of CLE-AUS was 88 passengers/day in Q4 2021 and the PDEW of CLE-SAN was 90 passengers/day in Q4 2021.

I can understand WN not serving SAN nonstop from CLE with BWI, MDW, and BNA being the only WN destinations east of the Mississippi River that currently have daily nonstop service to SAN on WN due to the cuts and operational issues that WN is currently facing, even if enough demand is there for CLE-SAN nonstop service on WN, AS, or UA.

AUS also still has daily nonstop service on WN to far more destinations east of the Mississippi River than SAN does, including to ATL, BWI, CHS, MDW, ORD, CMH, FLL, IND, MIA, BNA, MSY, MCO, ECP, RDU, TPA, and DCA.

CLE>AUS and SAT are really a E175 UA route, even AA or DL could do AUS with their interests there 1x day. It's a big jump for WN with a 737. But, no one has any plane/pilots/staff and they still have to fill up their hubs, so it's all probably wishful thinking. UA is probably getting 1/2 the AUS/SAT pax with AA getting most of the rest w/o the risk of a dedicated route.

So let this sink in for a moment-- WN has cut Cleveland ALMOST FIFTY PERCENT in 5 years (thank you for the 411 JPLATTS), and that was from a low base. Wonder if any other stations have been cut that much. My bet is the drop in MDW traffic that you shared has also been driven by fares. I'll never forget Herb saying that WN competes with the bus lines not with other airlines. Long gone are those days, judging by trips I researched lately, WN is never even close on fares to my other options. Plus with so few flights their connections out of CLE are generally awful too.

ncflyer wrote:

I just wish I knew why WN was so meh on Cleveland-- when compared to other similar cities that aren't fortress hubs. I think others have advanced the theory that they didn't have aircraft at the time the UA hub closed, and then F9 and NK swooped in, and then poof the opportunity went away. I don't buy that completely, I mean we've never had daily service to big WN hubs DAL and HOU for instance. There has to be more to the story and something they see in the data that we don't.

masseybrown wrote:

As others on the forum have been saying for a while, WN has little interest in CLE (June skeds reduced just under 20%). Such arrivals and departures as are surviving in the schedule seem poorly timed (either mid-day of very early/late) for business travel and not all that great for leisure either. Maybe it really is a question of fuel prices and pilot schedules; we'll see when their earnings come out on Wednesday.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/n ... ights.html

They can more money elsewhere, all southern growing areas are a far better bet than CLE. RDU, SAT, AUS, BNA, SAN, PHX, DEN and more. The list is huge and CLE doesn't make the cut.

LifetimeGS wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I just wish I knew why WN was so meh on Cleveland-- when compared to other similar cities that aren't fortress hubs. I think others have advanced the theory that they didn't have aircraft at the time the UA hub closed, and then F9 and NK swooped in, and then poof the opportunity went away. I don't buy that completely, I mean we've never had daily service to big WN hubs DAL and HOU for instance. There has to be more to the story and something they see in the data that we don't.

masseybrown wrote:

As others on the forum have been saying for a while, WN has little interest in CLE (June skeds reduced just under 20%). Such arrivals and departures as are surviving in the schedule seem poorly timed (either mid-day of very early/late) for business travel and not all that great for leisure either. Maybe it really is a question of fuel prices and pilot schedules; we'll see when their earnings come out on Wednesday.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/n ... ights.html

They can more money elsewhere, all southern growing areas are a far better bet than CLE. RDU, SAT, AUS, BNA, SAN, PHX, DEN and more. The list is huge and CLE doesn't make the cut.

ncflyer wrote:

So let this sink in for a moment-- WN has cut Cleveland ALMOST FIFTY PERCENT in 5 years (thank you for the 411 JPLATTS), and that was from a low base. Wonder if any other stations have been cut that much. My bet is the drop in MDW traffic that you shared has also been driven by fares. I'll never forget Herb saying that WN competes with the bus lines not with other airlines. Long gone are those days, judging by trips I researched lately, WN is never even close on fares to my other options. Plus with so few flights their connections out of CLE are generally awful too.

ORD wasn't served by WN until February 2021, and DSM and ICT are the only other WN stations in the Midwest that have more WN flights in Summer 2022 than in Summer 2017.

The CHI, CVG, GRR, OMA, and STL markets have close to the amount of WN service that they did in Summer 2017 in Summer 2022 (although with WN now serving ORD in addition to MDW in the Chicago market), and most of the other Midwestern markets (not just CLE) have less WN service than they did 5 years ago.

WN also has a much smaller presence at DTW, IND, MCI, and MKE than it did 5 years ago.

jplatts wrote:

LifetimeGS wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I just wish I knew why WN was so meh on Cleveland-- when compared to other similar cities that aren't fortress hubs. I think others have advanced the theory that they didn't have aircraft at the time the UA hub closed, and then F9 and NK swooped in, and then poof the opportunity went away. I don't buy that completely, I mean we've never had daily service to big WN hubs DAL and HOU for instance. There has to be more to the story and something they see in the data that we don't.

They can more money elsewhere, all southern growing areas are a far better bet than CLE. RDU, SAT, AUS, BNA, SAN, PHX, DEN and more. The list is huge and CLE doesn't make the cut.

ncflyer wrote:

So let this sink in for a moment-- WN has cut Cleveland ALMOST FIFTY PERCENT in 5 years (thank you for the 411 JPLATTS), and that was from a low base. Wonder if any other stations have been cut that much. My bet is the drop in MDW traffic that you shared has also been driven by fares. I'll never forget Herb saying that WN competes with the bus lines not with other airlines. Long gone are those days, judging by trips I researched lately, WN is never even close on fares to my other options. Plus with so few flights their connections out of CLE are generally awful too.

ORD wasn't served by WN until February 2021, and DSM and ICT are the only other WN stations in the Midwest that have more WN flights in Summer 2022 than in Summer 2017.

The CHI, CVG, GRR, OMA, and STL markets have close to the amount of WN service that they did in Summer 2017 in Summer 2022 (although with WN now serving ORD in addition to MDW in the Chicago market), and most of the other Midwestern markets (not just CLE) have less WN service than they did 5 years ago.

WN also has a much smaller presence at DTW, IND, MCI, and MKE than it did 5 years ago.

I think it also has to do with the carving up of Ohio airports by dominant carrier. CLE historically has been dominated by UA, CVG historically has been dominated by DL, and CMH to a much lesser extent than the others US Airways (which obviously no longer exists). Without a preexisting focus carrier, CMH became the natural place for WN expansion. Indeed, the CRAA reports that YTD WN has flown 34% of CMH passengers with the next closest airline being AA at 24%.

To some extent, the fates of the three big Ohio airports are going to depend largely on the whims of the dominant carrier in each airport (just ask CVG). In CMH, DL is a shell of it’s pre-pandemic self while UA is just coming back to life this summer. WN has largely continued to grow meanwhile. This is nice, but on the flip side CMH does miss out on some opportunities that CLE and CVG enjoy as legacy focus cities (such as reliable west coast service, airline lounges, and some TATL dabbling).

On WN and Chicago in general, with the mask mandates, covid and unruly pax, my guess is so many people opted to drive. Will that turn around now that the mask mandate is gone? Not sure.

WN offering 4x 737 service is competitive on that route.
AA offers 4x service on 319/738/E75/ERJ
UA offers 6x service on 73Gx3/739/CR7/E75

AA has bumped up their # of seats on the route, while UA is still behind a bit. Looked at June 13 for data.

The route out of CLE that surprises me the most is DL>ATL. With closing of CAK, I thought we'd see a lot more capacity as those combined markets had over 10 flights per day. Now, DL is at 4x321 and 2x320 on the route (noting some competition from WN, F9, NK). The absence of SLC is especially noteworthy as a western connection for DL.

ncflyer wrote:

I just wish I knew why WN was so meh on Cleveland-- when compared to other similar cities that aren't fortress hubs. I think others have advanced the theory that they didn't have aircraft at the time the UA hub closed, and then F9 and NK swooped in, and then poof the opportunity went away. I don't buy that completely, I mean we've never had daily service to big WN hubs DAL and HOU for instance. There has to be more to the story and something they see in the data that we don't.

masseybrown wrote:

As others on the forum have been saying for a while, WN has little interest in CLE (June skeds reduced just under 20%). Such arrivals and departures as are surviving in the schedule seem poorly timed (either mid-day of very early/late) for business travel and not all that great for leisure either. Maybe it really is a question of fuel prices and pilot schedules; we'll see when their earnings come out on Wednesday.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/n ... ights.html

Or is it that the people of Cleveland are meh on WN? It's likely that they've never had the financial results at CLE to continue to grow and grow.

To me, it's not complex. The point about CMH not every being a legacy hub is a good one. It allowed for organic growth with limited competition. Despite UA not listing it as so in it's pressers, CLE still remains somewhat of a focus city and UA, at times, has defended it's turf. Then NK/F9 did come which bottomed out a lot fares to places WN would probably want to fly to from CLE.