Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
ncflyer wrote:So let this sink in for a moment-- WN has cut Cleveland ALMOST FIFTY PERCENT in 5 years (thank you for the 411 JPLATTS), and that was from a low base. Wonder if any other stations have been cut that much. My bet is the drop in MDW traffic that you shared has also been driven by fares. I'll never forget Herb saying that WN competes with the bus lines not with other airlines. Long gone are those days, judging by trips I researched lately, WN is never even close on fares to my other options. Plus with so few flights their connections out of CLE are generally awful too.
pmanni1 wrote:Or is it that the people of Cleveland are meh on WN? It's likely that they've never had the financial results at CLE to continue to grow and grow.
highflier92660 wrote:Well said. I'm constantly amazed at the number of people in 2022 who are still under the impression that WN is that fun and spunky low-low cost airline. Herb is long gone, and with today's psycho-sexual workplace attitudes in-place, tall Texas blonde flight attendants in go-go hot pants are relegated to ancient historic photos online. Southwest may have no stomach to compete with Frontier or Spirit at CLE.
avtcle wrote:https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/04/spirit-airlines-temporarily-pulling-out-of-akron-canton-airport-adding-and-subtracting-flights-from-cleveland-hopkins.html?outputType=amp
Spirit Airlines is suspending service to CAK. Reducing some services from CLE (MYR, CUN suspended through Sept.) but adding a 2nd daily flight to MYR and resuming service to DFW after 2 years.
avtcle wrote:https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/04/spirit-airlines-temporarily-pulling-out-of-akron-canton-airport-adding-and-subtracting-flights-from-cleveland-hopkins.html?outputType=amp
Spirit Airlines is suspending service to CAK. Reducing some services from CLE (MYR, CUN suspended through Sept.) but adding a 2nd daily flight to MYR and resuming service to DFW after 2 years.
jplatts wrote:highflier92660 wrote:Well said. I'm constantly amazed at the number of people in 2022 who are still under the impression that WN is that fun and spunky low-low cost airline. Herb is long gone, and with today's psycho-sexual workplace attitudes in-place, tall Texas blonde flight attendants in go-go hot pants are relegated to ancient historic photos online. Southwest may have no stomach to compete with Frontier or Spirit at CLE.
There are very few WN nonstop routes remaining out of MCO and TPA that don't have nonstop competition from F9, NK, G4, XP, MX, or SY, including AUS-TPA, BHM-MCO/TPA, BDL-TPA, PHX-TPA, and SAT-TPA.
CLE can probably support daily nonstop service to MCO and TPA on WN with most of the markets that have daily nonstop service to MCO on WN already having daily nonstop service to MCO on F9 or NK and with most of the markets that have daily nonstop service to TPA on WN already having nonstop service to the Tampa Bay Area on F9, NK, or G4.
In addition to WN having multiple daily nonstops to MCO from both CMH and IND, both CMH and IND have more nonstop flights to MCO than CLE does (along with WN facing nonstop competition from both NK and F9 on MCO-CMH/IND).
Reasons why WN has held onto many of its nonstop routes to MCO and TPA from the Midwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and South, even with nonstop competition from F9 or NK on many of its nonstop routes from MCO and TPA, include the following:
(a) WN has been on some of its nonstop routes to MCO/TPA from the Midwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and South for more than 20 years,
(b) WN still has significant market share and established FF bases in the MCO and TPA markets (even though WN has lost some market share to ULCC's in both the MCO and TPA markets), and
(c) WN has strong name recognition in some markets in the Midwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and South to support daily nonstop service to MCO and TPA from some markets in the Midwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and South.
ncflyer wrote:While Florida is saturated and WN really missed the window for that out of CLE, that doesn't explain CLE never having daily service to DAL or HOU 2 major WN hubs (or "connecting points" for any who are in denial that WN has hubs). And now NK is adding daily DFW so another market that WN cedes to the ULCC.
fun2fly wrote:AA has not pulled out of CAK, neither has Spirit. American flies to Philadelphia, DCA, and Charlotte. The Chicago flight on American is not a new suspension but a continuum of service that along with some other cities were first suspended early in the pandemic, which according to AA new flight schedule the CAK/ORD flight is scheduled to restart in the fourth quarter 2022.Spirit service is suspended starting June 5th and resuming Nov 5th , it could resume earlier, or who knows how these things could go. But presently you have Spirit, AA ,United, Allegiant, and Breeze operating from CAK.avtcle wrote:https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/04/spirit-airlines-temporarily-pulling-out-of-akron-canton-airport-adding-and-subtracting-flights-from-cleveland-hopkins.html?outputType=amp
Spirit Airlines is suspending service to CAK. Reducing some services from CLE (MYR, CUN suspended through Sept.) but adding a 2nd daily flight to MYR and resuming service to DFW after 2 years.
After AA and NK pull out, who's left? UA and Allegiant?
avtcle wrote:I think the fact is that in the peer cities where Southwest is much stronger (PIT, CMH, MCI, IND, etc.), there is a far smaller presence of both Spirit and Frontier. I think the price point is simply too low here. As others pointed out, they can make more money putting the planes elsewhere then on a CLE-Florida or CLE-LAS/PHX route that already has lots of low cost service.
Manderson12 wrote:fun2fly wrote:AA has not pulled out of CAK, neither has Spirit. American flies to Philadelphia, DCA, and Charlotte. The Chicago flight on American is not a new suspension but a continuum of service that along with some other cities were first suspended early in the pandemic, which according to AA new flight schedule the CAK/ORD flight is scheduled to restart in the fourth quarter 2022.Spirit service is suspended starting June 5th and resuming Nov 5th , it could resume earlier, or who knows how these things could go. But presently you have Spirit, AA ,United, Allegiant, and Breeze operating from CAK.avtcle wrote:https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/04/spirit-airlines-temporarily-pulling-out-of-akron-canton-airport-adding-and-subtracting-flights-from-cleveland-hopkins.html?outputType=amp
Spirit Airlines is suspending service to CAK. Reducing some services from CLE (MYR, CUN suspended through Sept.) but adding a 2nd daily flight to MYR and resuming service to DFW after 2 years.
After AA and NK pull out, who's left? UA and Allegiant?
DeltaRules wrote:Whichever incarnation of F9 it was originally flew to CMH and DAY but bailed on both, at which point they set up shop in a big way at CLE and CVG.
jplatts wrote:DeltaRules wrote:Whichever incarnation of F9 it was originally flew to CMH and DAY but bailed on both, at which point they set up shop in a big way at CLE and CVG.
Did you mean CAK instead of CMH? CMH still has F9 service in addition to CLE and CVG.
highflier92660 wrote:That is a good analysis; I may have been a little succinct and simplistic with my comment. While WN of-late is not nearly as willing to take-on F9 or NK out of diluted yield leisure Florida markets to CLE, they have built-up something of a quasi-fortress position at TPA for example.
masseybrown wrote:2557 flights in March 22 vs 4037 in March 21 - reflecting the disappearance of the 50-seaters replaced by larger aircraft at a less than one-to-one rate. .
joeman wrote:masseybrown wrote:2557 flights in March 22 vs 4037 in March 21 - reflecting the disappearance of the 50-seaters replaced by larger aircraft at a less than one-to-one rate. .
2,557 flight in March 22 divided by 31 days = 82.48 flights per day average...WOW
chrisjake wrote:United B77W (N2251U) diverted to CLE this morning while on its red-eye route SFO-EWR, arriving CLE around 630a. Stayed for about 2 hrs before continuing on to EWR. Sounds like a medical diversion, can anyone confirm?
Also....on Tues evening 4/26, N342AN an ex-AAL 767-300 that has been converted to a freighter and listed with DHL but still in AAL markings landed at CLE at 2300 from Rome NY KRME. Stayed at CLE for 2 hrs before heading nonstop to Bahrain at 0100. Does anyone know why it came to CLE? My first thought was customs....but would an empty cargo plane need to go thru customs? If so, aren't there better options that are more "on-the-way?"
joeman wrote:masseybrown wrote:2557 flights in March 22 vs 4037 in March 21 - reflecting the disappearance of the 50-seaters replaced by larger aircraft at a less than one-to-one rate. .
2,557 flight in March 22 divided by 31 days = 82.48 flights per day average...WOW
chrisjake wrote:Also....on Tues evening 4/26, N342AN an ex-AAL 767-300 that has been converted to a freighter and listed with DHL but still in AAL markings landed at CLE at 2300 from Rome NY KRME. Stayed at CLE for 2 hrs before heading nonstop to Bahrain at 0100. Does anyone know why it came to CLE? My first thought was customs....but would an empty cargo plane need to go thru customs? If so, aren't there better options that are more "on-the-way?"
MohawkWeekend wrote:That would be all flights, including GA and Freight?
By comparison how many does CAK now have?
highflier92660 wrote:The mystery of missing frequencies: Here is a scroll through memories of Cleveland Hopkins' years during a thriving Concourse D. Arrivals and departures peaked at around 250 per day. There were an impressive array of hub-and-spoke destinations from CLE, but flying wasn't always better in those days. Prior to the E170 and 175 regional jets, most of us recall flights aboard the CRJ-200 with windows at chest level, or arriving ERJ passengers clogging the jetway waiting for their tagged carry-ons to be delivered up from the cargo hold.
viewtopic.php?t=1420215
avtcle wrote:Air Canada up to 2x daily to Toronto starting this week. They added back the RON flight — arrives at 7:52 PM and leaves the following morning at 6:55 AM. 3rd daily is scheduled back in June.
fun2fly wrote:avtcle wrote:Air Canada up to 2x daily to Toronto starting this week. They added back the RON flight — arrives at 7:52 PM and leaves the following morning at 6:55 AM. 3rd daily is scheduled back in June.
All 3 are back to CRJ's vs. some E75's prior to the pandemic. At least AC is back as an option.
ncflyer wrote:goes back five years but I tried split ticketing on AC and then another airline onward to CDG, because YYZ has (or at least used to have, haven't shopped it in a while) bargain basement fares to Europe. The CLE YYZ leg was insanely outrageous for such a short trip so the numbers didn't work, it was close to or even more than the YYZ CDG leg as I remember. Instead I bought split tickets to Dulles-- I think I saved $500 vs. a straight CLE ticket a the time. Tried looking at split options this summer to Europe and none of the large gateways drivable from CLE were much cheaper, I checked DTW (which is usually more expensive than CLE), ORD, IAD, YYZ. .
I'm pretty convinced what you said is true-- AC is pricing for business travelers and for onward international travelers. Reminds me of how AA used to price MIA before Spirit arrived on the scene, and UA prices certain flights to Dulles for the international travelers too. The ~2:30PM Dulles flight timed to connect to Europe is often very expensive.
Pricing doesn't get discussed a ton on airliners.net I find it the most interesting part of the business-- so forgive my rambling!!