Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2022

joeman · Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:25 pm

We know that in the 70's UA alone reached over 100 daily flights, all mainline of course

ncflyer · Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:56 pm

Other than ORD (clearly UA and WN are down frequencies to Chicago so AA is sensing some opportunity) what a paltry schedule compared to PIT and CMH and IND and CVG or compared to last year. Only 4x to CLT yikes when is the last time we had so few flights there, especially during peak season to the southeast and caribbean. For the life of me I don't understand why our demand to NY and DC is apparently lower in CLE than peer cities. Last year we had more frequenices on AA to both NY airports, more to Miami, more to Charlotte, equally pathetic to DCA.

avtcle wrote:
AA sked update Feb 2023

CLE-DFW: 4.0 (4x B737)
CLE-CLT: 4.0 (2x B737, 2x A320)
CLE-PHL: 3.0 (1x A319, 1x CRJ9, 1x E145)
CLE-LGA: 3.0 (3x E175)
CLE-DCA: 3.0 (3x CRJ9)
CLE-ORD: 3.0 (2x B737, 1x E145)
CLE-JFK: 2.0 (2x E175)
CLE-PHX: 1.0 (1x A321)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x B737)

24 avg daily

jplatts · Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:15 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Other than ORD (clearly UA and WN are down frequencies to Chicago so AA is sensing some opportunity) what a paltry schedule compared to PIT and CMH and IND and CVG or compared to last year. Only 4x to CLT yikes when is the last time we had so few flights there, especially during peak season to the southeast and caribbean. For the life of me I don't understand why our demand to NY and DC is apparently lower in CLE than peer cities. Last year we had more frequenices on AA to both NY airports, more to Miami, more to Charlotte, equally pathetic to DCA.

B6 adding CLE-JFK nonstop service is a possibility if B6 has unused slots available, and B6 already serves JFK nonstop from the other Midwest cities that have B6 service (ORD/DTW/MCI/MKE/MSP).

CVG and CMH are further from DC than CLE is, and both CVG and CMH have higher O&D PDEW's to the WAS market than CLE does.

CLE-NYC also had higher O&D PDEW's than CVG-NYC in Q2 2022.

joeman · Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:31 pm

Maybe now IS the time for a terminal modernization considering it looks like CLE doesn't need more than 20-30 gates at the most at this point

avtcle · Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:06 pm

Per request here is UAs sked for Nov

Nov:
CLE-EWR: 6.0 (1x B739, 2x B738, 1x B737, 2x E175)
CLE-ORD: 5.0 (2x B739, 1x B738, 2x B737)
CLE-DEN: 3.0 (2x B739, 1x B738)
CLE-IAD: 3.0 (2x B738, 1x E175)
CLE-IAH: 3.0 (1x B739, 1x B737, 1x E175)
CLE-MCO: 2.0 (1x B739, 1x B738)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x B739)
CLE-SFO: 1.0 (1x B739)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-RSW: 1.0 (1x B737)
CLE-CUN: 0.1 (B739)
26.3 avg daily

December is practically a copy and paste. For most of the month. The only notable change is CUN picks up a Sunday frequency, 0.1<0.3. The schedule fluctuates quite a lot equipment and frequency wise the week before and the week following the Christmas holiday.

se210 · Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:08 pm

joeman wrote:
Despite larger planes, what are we down to in number of total average daily flights? Maybe 100-115? Wonder how that compares to Hopkins circa 1950 or 1960.

Here is a comparison between 2022 and 1974...

108 Commercial airline flight arrivals (Excludes Freighters/Bizjets) - On 10/31/2022
Source: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/cle/arrivals
152 Commercial airline flight arrivals (Excludes Sat Only/Sun Only Flights and Commuter Airline Flights) - As of 04/01/1974 (80 flights were United Airlines)
Source: DepartedFlights.com Official Airline Guide - North American Edition - April 1, 1974 (Cleveland,OH Page 1 and Cleveland,OH Page 2). Also see Airlines and Aircraft Serving Cleveland Hopkins Effective April 1, 1974

joeman wrote:
We know that in the 70's UA alone reached over 100 daily flights, all mainline of course

This link from DepartedFlights.com shows United Airlines - Daily Departures from the Cleveland Hub 1972-1989. Scroll down to the bottom of the webpage to see the Total Daily Departures totals. The 1970's averaged 80+ daily flights with the maximum shown being 107 in January,1979.

a320flyer · Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:29 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Other than ORD (clearly UA and WN are down frequencies to Chicago so AA is sensing some opportunity) what a paltry schedule compared to PIT and CMH and IND and CVG or compared to last year. Only 4x to CLT yikes when is the last time we had so few flights there, especially during peak season to the southeast and caribbean. For the life of me I don't understand why our demand to NY and DC is apparently lower in CLE than peer cities. Last year we had more frequenices on AA to both NY airports, more to Miami, more to Charlotte, equally pathetic to DCA.

avtcle wrote:
AA sked update Feb 2023

CLE-DFW: 4.0 (4x B737)
CLE-CLT: 4.0 (2x B737, 2x A320)
CLE-PHL: 3.0 (1x A319, 1x CRJ9, 1x E145)
CLE-LGA: 3.0 (3x E175)
CLE-DCA: 3.0 (3x CRJ9)
CLE-ORD: 3.0 (2x B737, 1x E145)
CLE-JFK: 2.0 (2x E175)
CLE-PHX: 1.0 (1x A321)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x B737)

24 avg daily

There’s more mainline though, so the service is in-line with peer markets. CVG may have 5x to CLT, but two are on regional aircraft. Basically a wash capacity-wise.

joeman · Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:31 pm

Thanks se210!!! With lots of space available, if financially feasible maybe CLE should start modernizing by closing and demolishing Concourse B for a rebuild. Hopefully ops will never be lower to impede construction.

masseybrown · Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:44 pm

joeman wrote:
Despite larger planes, what are we down to in number of total average daily flights? Maybe 100-115? Wonder how that compares to Hopkins circa 1950 or 1960.

Flightaware says Oct 30 CLE had 276 operations (so 138 departures) as opposed to 302 a year ago.

ncflyer · Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:14 pm

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/11/ ... rport.html

Cleveland seeking RFP for a study on economic impact of closing Burke-- this is separate from an aviation feasibility study which is already underway with results expected soon.

izbtmnhd · Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:34 pm

I hope the city doesn't close BKL without some sort of realistic plan. It's a lot of landfill to try to build on. I haven't heard a single developer or even Metroparks show interest in doing something there. Last thing you want is this large tract lying fallow while the city twiddles their thumbs looking for a use.

avtcle · Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:37 pm

[url][/url]This week into next marks the transition into the winter schedule for Frontier at CLE.

PHL/RDU/ATL all end this week.

FLL, PUJ return. CUN goes from 1x weekly to 1x daily. Here’s what the Nov/Dec sked looks like:

CLE-MCO: 3.0
CLE-TPA: 2.4
CLE-RSW: 2.0
CLE-CUN: 1.0
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-PHX: 1.0
CLE-FLL: 0.6
CLE-DEN: 0.6
CLE-PUJ: 0.4

12 average daily. Solid winter schedule. Certainly puts them in the position to remain a market leader.

Through end of July ‘22 it looks like:
United @ 23%
Frontier @ 14%
Southwest @ 12%

ncflyer · Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:56 pm

Nice to see RSW returning to prior levels was wondering about that.

izbtmnhd in my opinion the metroparks is silent on Burke, because it's a sticky wicket politically and they have nothing to gain by speaking up until a decision is made. Hopefully you have read about metroparks incredible 30-40 year plan to use sediment dredged up from the Cuyahoga to build up marina/beach/parklands around the east side marina where MLK ends, also around Marginal Road-- make the area in to an east side edgewater. Burke would fit in so beautifully with that, I'm sure people are salivating quietly, everyone knows in NEO that the metroparks would be the no brainer agency to manage parkland and that literally everything they do turns in to gold.

ncflyer · Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:20 pm

I'm feeling a little chatty today sorry everyone!! People's loyalty to UA, wow! I am going to FLL in December. F9 fare, $100. UA fare $480. Exact same days. I can buy all the fixings on F9 and it's still 60% of the price of UA. UA isn't dumb about their pricing, people are willing to pay quite a premium.

avtcle · Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:23 pm

Cleveland Hopkins CLE is the first airport to have the FAA’s new Terminal Flight Data Manager (TFDM) system installed and operational. Intended to decrease runway departure queues and streamline operations. CLT will be the next airport to receive this system in 2024.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 68763.html

highflier92660 · Sat Nov 05, 2022 1:53 pm

avtcle wrote:
Cleveland Hopkins CLE is the first airport to have the FAA’s new Terminal Flight Data Manager (TFDM) system installed and operational. Intended to decrease runway departure queues and streamline operations. CLT will be the next airport to receive this system in 2024.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 68763.html

I applaud this wonderful new technology, but having already discussed that CLE has only a percentage of its former traffic why choose Cleveland? Because Cleveland installed the first traffic light over at 105th and Euclid in 1914? ATL, LAX and a half-dozen other airports could use this TFDM system more.

fun2fly · Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:08 pm

highflier92660 wrote:
avtcle wrote:
Cleveland Hopkins CLE is the first airport to have the FAA’s new Terminal Flight Data Manager (TFDM) system installed and operational. Intended to decrease runway departure queues and streamline operations. CLT will be the next airport to receive this system in 2024.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 68763.html

I applaud this wonderful new technology, but having already discussed that CLE has only a percentage of its former traffic why choose Cleveland? Because Cleveland installed the first traffic light over at 105th and Euclid in 1914? ATL, LAX and a half-dozen other airports could use this TFDM system more.

I thought the same thing...why not all NYC airports? Maybe they wanted to trial at a low volume then headed to CLT after they worked the bugs out. Sure hope they do more than 1 per year.

greenair727 · Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:51 pm

Cleveland has a lot of aviation "firsts" so there is a lot of logic to CLE being first.
https://www.centerforcleveland.org/cleveland#Innovation

DaveMetroD · Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:05 pm

Maybe introducing something brand new at your busiest and most complicated airports might not be a good thing?

avtcle · Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:59 am

Spirit has rolled an update through the end of its available sked. Using April, 2023:

CLE-MCO: 2.0 (1x A321, 1x A320N)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x A320N)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x A320N)
CLE-RSW: 1.0 (1x A321)
CLE-LAS: 1.0 (1x A320N)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x A319)
CLE-TPA: 1.0 (1x A320)
CLE-MYR: 1.0 (1x A320N)
CLE-ATL: 1.0 (1x A320N)

10 daily

Trk1 · Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:13 pm

Note Spirit has cancelled all future service from CLE to RSW
Note American has cancelled all future service CAK to PHL

SgtBarone · Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:09 pm

NK CLE-MSY appears to be gone too. It was suspended earlier this year but still hasn't returned and is not in the latest schedule extension.

ncflyer · Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:04 pm

Remember how excited we all were when NK added a second gate? Oh well nothing came of that.

fun2fly · Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:36 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Remember how excited we all were when NK added a second gate? Oh well nothing came of that.

I don't understand how you run a business like that. Say you booked NK for a trip 120 days from now. They cancel. You're not able to rebook on them in most cases. You assume the risk you can still get to RSW in this case on another carrier at a reasonable price? Lots of risk flying these guys in my mind, especially b/c other direct RSW carriers will know this and raise prices. Not worth the headache to me.

avtcle · Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:04 pm

Trk1 wrote:
Note Spirit has cancelled all future service from CLE to RSW
Note American has cancelled all future service CAK to PHL

Spirit has not cancelled all future services to RSW. It is in the schedule @ 1.0 A321 beginning in March. This adjustment was made following Ian and has remained consistent through rolling updates, including the massive network adjustment made yesterday.

Trk1 · Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:20 pm

Sprit has removed this route from all distribution sites including their own

avtcle · Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:54 pm

“Cleveland City Council on Monday is expected to approve a lease with Sherwin-Williams that will allow it to build a hangar at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport.

The paint giant intends to use 5.8 acres of land it will lease from the city to build a new structure to house and maintain its fleet of corporate jets, which are currently stored at a privately-operated hangar elsewhere on Hopkins’ campus.“

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/11/ ... utType=amp

avtcle · Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:54 am

United has rolled an update through its March 2023 sked. Bear in mind this wasn’t the spring break update, just rolling. They typically bolster spring break capacity in Dec, so hopefully we’ll see some additional freq to MCO, RSW, FLL as we have in years past.

CLE-EWR: 7.0 (3x B739, 4x E175)
CLE-ORD: 6.0 (1x B739, 3x B738, 2x B737)
CLE-IAD: 4.0 (2x B738, 2x B737)
CLE-DEN: 3.0 (1x B739, 2x B738)
CLE-IAH: 3.0 (1x B739, 1x B738, 1x E175)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x B739)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x B38M)
CLE-SFO: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-MCO: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-RSW: 1.0 (1x B739)
CLE-CUN: 0.3 (B739)
CLE-NAS: 0.1 (E175)

28.4 avg daily

LifetimeGS · Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:12 am

Thank you for posting, impressive the CUN is a 900. Is ORD five or six flights?

avtcle · Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:19 am

My bad - missed a B738. ORD is at 6 daily. ^

avtcle · Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:02 pm

Tomorrow: Frontier CLE-PUJ resumes at 3x weekly, CLE-CUN increases to 1x daily.

avtcle · Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:30 pm

Frontier has extended their schedule through August 2023. Here is what June, 2023 look like as summer sked kicks in:

CLE-TPA: 2.0
CLE-MCO: 2.0
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-CUN: 1.0
CLE-PHX: 1.0
CLE-RSW: 1.0
CLE-DEN: 1.0
CLE-RDU: 0.6
CLE-FLL: 0.6
CLE-ATL: 0.4
CLE-PUJ: 0.4

11 avg daily

Hopefully we’ll get some new routes this summer. A return to CHS would be nice. PHL not back in the sked.

joeman · Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:42 pm

The mystery of SY coming to CLE given their latest round of expansion since CLE was announced in 2019:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... -paul.html

masseybrown · Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:20 pm

joeman wrote:
The mystery of SY coming to CLE given their latest round of expansion since CLE was announced in 2019:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... -paul.html

This was right after the Sherwin-Williams/Valspar merger. I think they were looking for a big bump of VFR as well as business travel between CLE and MSP, Valspar's hqs. COVID killed that and SY's interest seems to have moved on to other things.

Spirit, meanwhile, has announced double daily CLE-ATL starting in January. CLE departures are 7:20AM and 7:40PM. Returns from ATL at 5:07PM and 10:32PM. Nice for a same day return for the CLE traveler; not as good for ATL. Presumably this was done with the tacit approval of JetBlue and is a direct play for the business traveler. NK is setting up a similar or bigger ATL pattern in BOS, BWI, DTW, and ORD as well.

izbtmnhd · Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:28 pm

joeman wrote:
The mystery of SY coming to CLE given their latest round of expansion since CLE was announced in 2019:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... -paul.html

They've operated 7 CLE charters this month. So they're essentially flying twice weekly already.

You can already fly direct on tons of NK/F9/UA flights to sun destinations without the leg at MSP. I'm sure the size of CLE F9s Ops alone gives SY pause. It's all daily service (or more) as well.

What I'm really pining for is F9 service to MBJ.

CLEguy · Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:35 pm

Is anyone else surprised by British Airways' announcement of CVG-LHR service? I wish JobsOhio had used its money to lure BA to CLE instead of Aer Lingus.

TheLion · Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:00 pm

CLEguy wrote:
Is anyone else surprised by British Airways' announcement of CVG-LHR service? I wish JobsOhio had used its money to lure BA to CLE instead of Aer Lingus.

Slightly. I expected Indy would get it, given recent discussions and last year’s near-launch. But CVG is in the middle of that four-metro triangle, so has a huge 8m catchment area within less than 2h drive. Plus AA are growing rapidly regionally, so there’s plenty of FFs to capture too.

fun2fly · Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:40 pm

TheLion wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
Is anyone else surprised by British Airways' announcement of CVG-LHR service? I wish JobsOhio had used its money to lure BA to CLE instead of Aer Lingus.

Slightly. I expected Indy would get it, given recent discussions and last year’s near-launch. But CVG is in the middle of that four-metro triangle, so has a huge 8m catchment area within less than 2h drive. Plus AA are growing rapidly regionally, so there’s plenty of FFs to capture too.

I'd view that as a second place finish for CLE. BA to LHR was the prize, even the Mayor wanted this. 4x week for a narrow body to DUB with limited onward capacity vs. LHR is truly second place vs. 788 service to LHR 5x week summer/4x winter. So, PIT and CVG beat CLE, just like the NFL most years.

ncflyer · Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:15 pm

If I'm not mistaken Aer Lingus and BA are same parent company. The decision must have been that CLE is too close to Pittsburgh. Would anyone be surprised if say 15% of those PIT LHR pax were from Ohio-- obviously I have no idea but BA sure does? Why cannibalize?

As we've said before on this forum a factor that impacts CLE on international is that our main big three airline tie is to UA and they are just not interested in non-hub flying, FRA overflies too much of Europe and LH planes too large. STL which got FRA service must have more ties to Germany than CLE area..

TheLion · Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:16 am

fun2fly wrote:
TheLion wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
Is anyone else surprised by British Airways' announcement of CVG-LHR service? I wish JobsOhio had used its money to lure BA to CLE instead of Aer Lingus.

Slightly. I expected Indy would get it, given recent discussions and last year’s near-launch. But CVG is in the middle of that four-metro triangle, so has a huge 8m catchment area within less than 2h drive. Plus AA are growing rapidly regionally, so there’s plenty of FFs to capture too.

I'd view that as a second place finish for CLE. BA to LHR was the prize, even the Mayor wanted this. 4x week for a narrow body to DUB with limited onward capacity vs. LHR is truly second place vs. 788 service to LHR 5x week summer/4x winter. So, PIT and CVG beat CLE, just like the NFL most years.

A fair comment. However EI in DUB does have a large European network, with extensive coverage of the UK especially, so there are plenty of options.

I do believe CLE will get its LHR service one day, but this won’t be soon. However I think if BA purchased A321LRs then it could happen this decade for sure though.

Additionally, CLE’s decline in recent times may have counted against it, plus its relative proximity to PIT as ncflyer below states won’t help either. There’s still a fair distance between the two, but as a recent launch BA would obvs want PIT to mature before adding nearby cities like CMH and CLE.

ncflyer wrote:
If I'm not mistaken Aer Lingus and BA are same parent company. The decision must have been that CLE is too close to Pittsburgh. Would anyone be surprised if say 15% of those PIT LHR pax were from Ohio-- obviously I have no idea but BA sure does? Why cannibalize?

As we've said before on this forum a factor that impacts CLE on international is that our main big three airline tie is to UA and they are just not interested in non-hub flying, FRA overflies too much of Europe and LH planes too large. STL which got FRA service must have more ties to Germany than CLE area..

Yup, as per above comment, I’d concur the proximity of PIT allied to its recency as a new addition, with the latter the key factor, likely precluded both CLE and CMH from winning this round.

CVG makes more sense now due to its huge catchment area. But in the future, I’m confident CMH is exactly the type of city BA are interested in. So I predict they’ll launch later this decade — provided they’re first in that market of course!

greenair727 · Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:12 pm

CLEguy wrote:
Is anyone else surprised by British Airways' announcement of CVG-LHR service? I wish JobsOhio had used its money to lure BA to CLE instead of Aer Lingus.

I agree BA to LHR would have been far better for CLE than EI to DUB. I get the reasons posted above as to why they went to Cinci instead, but yeah, that would have been nice....

nickya340 · Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:32 pm

BA would never fly to CLE at the same time as PIT, which is a good performer as frequencies are set to increase next summer.
So EI are the best CLE will get for now, I also think a 787 would be too big for CLE, A321 is perfect.

joeman · Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:56 pm

nickya340 wrote:
BA would never fly to CLE at the same time as PIT, which is a good performer as frequencies are set to increase next summer.
So EI are the best CLE will get for now, I also think a 787 would be too big for CLE, A321 is perfect.

Gotta agree considering what seems to be somewhat limited connection opportunities primarily focusing on Ireland/UK destinations and pricing ordinarily above competition from what I've checked out.

BA744PHX · Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:22 pm

nickya340 wrote:
BA would never fly to CLE at the same time as PIT, which is a good performer as frequencies are set to increase next summer.
So EI are the best CLE will get for now, I also think a 787 would be too big for CLE, A321 is perfect.

PIT is being increased due to new incentives being offered

masseybrown · Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:51 pm

ncflyer wrote:
If I'm not mistaken Aer Lingus and BA are same parent company. The decision must have been that CLE is too close to Pittsburgh. Would anyone be surprised if say 15% of those PIT LHR pax were from Ohio-- obviously I have no idea but BA sure does? Why cannibalize?

As we've said before on this forum a factor that impacts CLE on international is that our main big three airline tie is to UA and they are just not interested in non-hub flying, FRA overflies too much of Europe and LH planes too large. STL which got FRA service must have more ties to Germany than CLE area..

Does that imply that 15% of the CLE-DUB traffic will be from PIT?

Your comment about the common ownership of EI and BA is important; both airlines will know exactly how all the area routes are doing. EI offers enough beyond-Dublin destinations that I think they will do very well next summer, as long as they don't underprice their service as Wow did. I've flown DUB-EWR and preclearance in DUB (a breeze) is worth serious money over clearing customs in EWR.

MohawkWeekend · Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:08 pm

The question I have is if you have a recession - which service is apt to fail first BA/LH on a wide body or El with a narrow body?

fun2fly · Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:15 pm

masseybrown wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
If I'm not mistaken Aer Lingus and BA are same parent company. The decision must have been that CLE is too close to Pittsburgh. Would anyone be surprised if say 15% of those PIT LHR pax were from Ohio-- obviously I have no idea but BA sure does? Why cannibalize?

As we've said before on this forum a factor that impacts CLE on international is that our main big three airline tie is to UA and they are just not interested in non-hub flying, FRA overflies too much of Europe and LH planes too large. STL which got FRA service must have more ties to Germany than CLE area..

Does that imply that 15% of the CLE-DUB traffic will be from PIT?

Your comment about the common ownership of EI and BA is important; both airlines will know exactly how all the area routes are doing. EI offers enough beyond-Dublin destinations that I think they will do very well next summer, as long as they don't underprice their service as Wow did. I've flown DUB-EWR and preclearance in DUB (a breeze) is worth serious money over clearing customs in EWR.

I believe EI offers 28 beyond destinations last I checked on the CLE flight. Some only offer one way viability w/o a stopover in DUB (VCE if I recall correctly). Many of the 28 are in England and you'd rent a car or hop on the train if you went to LHR. It's not overly enticing vs. a European major hub flight on a "home hub" carrier/carrier partner or a stop on the way at a US hub.

For a September 2023 4 day (3N) CLE>DUB RT, it's just under $1000, so price may not sway people to this flight either, along with limited connections. You can get to a lot of places in Europe for $1000 in September with one stop on a more comfortable plane. I only point this out because the FI/WW year in CLE spurred people with very low fares, many cases in the $600-800 range which drove business.

DUB pre-clearance is a factor as you note vs. somewhere like ORD (no train either), and even CLE somedays!

ncflyer · Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:36 pm

Note my wording-- I was speculating only on the 15% Ohioans on PIT's LHR flight but I have no idea, as I said before. And I said 15% FROM OHIO-- not from Cleveland. WHen I ask people from Youngstown where they fly from I usually get "check both airports, pick the one that's cheaper." I don't know anyone in Erie PA but I would guess the same, and they can check BUF too. Other than Erie I doubt CLE draws naturally from anywhere in PA so no I don't think EI in CLE will get as much out of state traffic as LHR in PIT and to restate I am only guessing.

If BA were to add CLE and they draw Mahoning Trumbull Erie PA travelers to CLE instead of PIT they gain nothing. I know those counties/cities aren't exactly Manhattan but they probably aren't chump change either.

greenair727 · Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:39 pm

N766UA wrote:
2nd place?! Given the long string of failed CLE-Europe routes, I’d chalk any new service up as a huge win.

2 weeks ago you’re all stoked on TATL from a national carrier, and now you’re all bummed because someplace else got “better” service? Can you be more Cleveland?

None of the "failed CLE-Europe routes" were the doing of Cleveland. I don't know why the JAT service to BEG ended. But, more recently:
CO's LHR and CDG were lost to the Great Recession. WW to KEF were lost as the airline went out of business; FI to KEF was grounded due to Max8 issues.

ncflyer · Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:07 pm

Very good point greenair and I'd also add LHR and CDG lost to great recession, buried in the grave due to merger/hub closure.

I wonder if the decrepit state of CLE's international facilities factor in to airlines thinking at all.

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