Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9
 
Kikko19
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:19 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
SAS will be flying both their own E195 E1 machines this summer, but also two Air Baltic A220-300. They'll look at the performance / price, everything. So the door is definitely not shut for the A220 for SAS. One of them will be chosen to replace the aging 737-700 and A319-100 models.

translated to English:
https://frequentflyer-no.translate.goog ... r_pto=wapp

Flown yesterday a223 from BT from CPH to TLL, great plane, even full seems to be empty for how much space it has. Will never fly 737 again.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:04 am

Kikko19 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
SAS will be flying both their own E195 E1 machines this summer, but also two Air Baltic A220-300. They'll look at the performance / price, everything. So the door is definitely not shut for the A220 for SAS. One of them will be chosen to replace the aging 737-700 and A319-100 models.

translated to English:
https://frequentflyer-no.translate.goog ... r_pto=wapp

Flown yesterday a223 from BT from CPH to TLL, great plane, even full seems to be empty for how much space it has. Will never fly 737 again.

Somehow I read past this. I considered the SAS sales campaign still in work. (Although with Ukraine, I could understand a slide in the decision schedule.) Getting real data will help, quite a bit in fact. I'm not going to predict who will win SAS, but it does show this order is being contested.

How ironic, AirBaltic needing to lease out their aircraft creates a major sales opportunity.

Lightsaber
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:05 pm

oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
There will always be a market for smaller gauge aircraft, the question is how many?


Of course the market is there !
In my post #184 the link says :
Latvian flag-carrier airBaltic says it is fielding requests for up to 15 ACMI contracts from all over the world, citing its Airbus A220-300s as the right size aircraft for network rebuilding

"someone83" says 2 each for Eurowings and SAS for the summer season. SAS for me is very interesting because they said that they want real world data before an order. So up to eleven more "from all over the world"
Lets start to speculate wich airline(s) from which country could be the others ? Airlines from Africa are top of my list. South America anyone ?
This could/will bring in new orders even ift they will be small, no matter, each sale is good for the program


To my knowledge, 2 at 4Y and 5 at EW. With the 2 at SAS, it makes 9, so up to 6 missing.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:00 pm

DUSZRH wrote :
To my knowledge, 2 at 4Y and 5 at EW. With the 2 at SAS, it makes 9, so up to 6 missing.


Something don`t ad up here. This source says since December 2021 two wet-leased A220s for EW are based in STR and for the summer schedule move to DUS plus three additional frames
source in German only : https://www.aero.de/news-41957/Jede-sechste-A220-von-Air-Baltic-fliegt-bald-fuer-Eurowings.html
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:17 pm

lightsaber wrote :
How ironic, AirBaltic needing to lease out their aircraft creates a major sales opportunity.


Indeed ironic ! On the other side you get this from the following article :
Industry sources focus on the prospects for SAS to lease aircraft from Latvia's airBaltic that is close to confirming orders for 30 Airbus A220-300 currently figuring as options under their existing agreement with Airbus.

https://www.newstodate.aero/2020/2/sasairbaltic-cooperation-in-new-regional-flights-provider/
 
Kikko19
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:36 pm

oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
How ironic, AirBaltic needing to lease out their aircraft creates a major sales opportunity.


Indeed ironic ! On the other side you get this from the following article :
Industry sources focus on the prospects for SAS to lease aircraft from Latvia's airBaltic that is close to confirming orders for 30 Airbus A220-300 currently figuring as options under their existing agreement with Airbus.

https://www.newstodate.aero/2020/2/sasairbaltic-cooperation-in-new-regional-flights-provider/

I would have bet in a SK-AY JV KL-AF style. On boarding BT will really piss SK better paid pilots for sure. About a220 would be perfect for all 3 players
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pm

Swiss HB-JCU (SN55110) arrived in Montreal (YUL) on a direct flight from Zurich.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... u#2b48c1ac

Suggestions are that Airbus will announce an Americas tour and use this A220-300 as the demonastration aircraft.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:39 pm

oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
How ironic, AirBaltic needing to lease out their aircraft creates a major sales opportunity.


Indeed ironic ! On the other side you get this from the following article :
Industry sources focus on the prospects for SAS to lease aircraft from Latvia's airBaltic that is close to confirming orders for 30 Airbus A220-300 currently figuring as options under their existing agreement with Airbus.

https://www.newstodate.aero/2020/2/sasairbaltic-cooperation-in-new-regional-flights-provider/

Now that would be exciting. I wonder how much leasing the A223s from AirBaltic played a role. SAS will now know dispatch reliability (assuming enough flights have occurred, I do not know all the details) and fuel burn.

Anyone know what missions SAS is flying the A223s?

yyztpa2 wrote:
Swiss HB-JCU (SN55110) arrived in Montreal (YUL) on a direct flight from Zurich.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... u#2b48c1ac

Suggestions are that Airbus will announce an Americas tour and use this A220-300 as the demonastration aircraft.


Now this is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed an Americas tour. I'm very curious as to which airlines are part of the tour.

Lightsaber
 
Someone83
Posts: 5735
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Anyone know what missions SAS is flying the A223s?


Right now it seems to be one each at ARN and CPH. Basically flying "all over" Europe, on departures typically where a 737-700 or A319 would be suitable
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:34 pm

lightsaber wrote :
Anyone know what missions SAS is flying the A223s?


Here is one I found : Stockholm ARN to Barcelona BCN
https://www.flightradar24.com/SAS1811/2b4cc6b9
 
User avatar
Scoreboard
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:06 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:

yyztpa2 wrote:
Swiss HB-JCU (SN55110) arrived in Montreal (YUL) on a direct flight from Zurich.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... u#2b48c1ac

Suggestions are that Airbus will announce an Americas tour and use this A220-300 as the demonastration aircraft.


Now this is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed an Americas tour. I'm very curious as to which airlines are part of the tour.

Lightsaber


HB-JCU has already gone down to Miami, so perhaps looking at demos for S America?
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:48 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
SAS will be flying both their own E195 E1 machines this summer, but also two Air Baltic A220-300. They'll look at the performance / price, everything. So the door is definitely not shut for the A220 for SAS. One of them will be chosen to replace the aging 737-700 and A319-100 models.

translated to English:
https://frequentflyer-no.translate.goog ... r_pto=wapp


Using FR24 filtering, I have seen at least 3 A223 flying for SAS: YL-CSA/CSB/CSD. Eurowings has at least 4: YL-CSE/CSH/CSM/CSN
 
ben7x
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:58 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:06 pm

oldJoe wrote:
DUSZRH wrote :
To my knowledge, 2 at 4Y and 5 at EW. With the 2 at SAS, it makes 9, so up to 6 missing.


Something don`t ad up here. This source says since December 2021 two wet-leased A220s for EW are based in STR and for the summer schedule move to DUS plus three additional frames
source in German only : https://www.aero.de/news-41957/Jede-sechste-A220-von-Air-Baltic-fliegt-bald-fuer-Eurowings.html


2 A220 currently based in STR (will move to DUS) + 3 additional A220 to be based in DUS = 5 aircraft. And then 2 more for 4Y. Just as DUSZRH wrote.
 
ben7x
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:58 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:27 pm

Don’t know if this was mentioned here before. LH will launch a new airline similar to Cityline (the crew will have similar contracts, similar kind of ops, etc.) as CLH cannot operate aircraft with more than 75 seats from 2026. So they plan something like a Cityline 2.0 or a Lufthansa Light with 40 aircraft. It is rumoured that this new airline will take over the current Cityline ops + all younger LH mainline A319 (while the older ones get phased out). So this new airline could be the one flying A220 in LH colours in the future, which will then replace the A319 taken over from LH. Spohr wants the different group airlines to compete with each other and who wins gets more aircraft. I don’t know how many A220 the new airline could get, maybe 30, maybe 40? It will probably depend on how much the costs will be reduced at LH mainline, management wants something like a 25% saving, but I think they aim for a like 10-15% reduction in reality. So the more mainline will lower the costs, the more A320/321neo it will operate and the less potential A220s Cityline 2.0 could operate.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/art-zweit ... euge-haben (German)
Last edited by ben7x on Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4219
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:30 pm

ben7x wrote:
Spohr wants the different group airlines to compete with each other and who wins gets more aircraft.


That worked out really well for the legacy carriers in the US with their regional operations.... It really incentivizes race to the bottom over everything else.
 
ben7x
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:58 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:35 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ben7x wrote:
Spohr wants the different group airlines to compete with each other and who wins gets more aircraft.


That worked out really well for the legacy carriers in the US with their regional operations.... It really incentivizes race to the bottom over everything else.


I thinks it’s very clever from a management point of view. But it will increase pressure on LH mainline as they have much higher costs than Cityline or a Cityline 2.0. Especially if this new airline gets A220s.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:26 pm

ben7x wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
DUSZRH wrote :
To my knowledge, 2 at 4Y and 5 at EW. With the 2 at SAS, it makes 9, so up to 6 missing.


Something don`t ad up here. This source says since December 2021 two wet-leased A220s for EW are based in STR and for the summer schedule move to DUS plus three additional frames
source in German only : https://www.aero.de/news-41957/Jede-sechste-A220-von-Air-Baltic-fliegt-bald-fuer-Eurowings.html


2 A220 currently based in STR (will move to DUS) + 3 additional A220 to be based in DUS = 5 aircraft. And then 2 more for 4Y. Just as DUSZRH wrote.


Stating facts without a source is ...................... , don`t worry I found one.
From mid May until October there will be 2 A220s based in MUC for 4Y
source in German only : https://reisetopia.de/news/eurowings-discover-wet-lease/
 
Babyshark
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:08 am

lightsaber wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The A220 isn't expected to be profitable until 2025. :cry2:
https://mentourpilot.com/a220-airbus-an ... ore%202025.

I'm not sure how much they really sell for. There have been rumors before, but to say the least, probably under half the $81 million list price. Compared the the A319NEO? I would imagine less, but partially as the slots are worth so much making A321s. The A32x family is a printing press for money. I would assume the A223 sells for less than the A319NEO, but I do not know. It is a nice, light, efficient airframe. Now that dispatch reliability is excellent (99.85% per link below), the plane should sell and sell well. In particular as long as oil is above $75/bbl.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/airbalt ... ecks-a220/

Lightsaber


not sure how much fuel really plays into it unless you are absolutely committed to that aircraft size. With expensive fuel and scarce pilots the ideal aircraft becomes 321/73Ms unless you get a bunch of 220s tomorrow.

There will always be a market for smaller gauge aircraft, the question is how many? The 73G sold 1150, the A319 having 1484, plus 717s and E195s implies there is a market. I will agree the market share will shrink, but first the business of 50, 76, and 100 seat jets would end.

I think larger aircraft will have more market share, but I still see a market for over two thousand A220s without the A225.


Links for 73G and A319 deliveries:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_ ... Generation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... deliveries

Fuel plays into relative efficiency. The A223 and A320NEO have about the same fuel burn per passenger. Since yield drops with larger guage, there will be markets. Or is their a suggestion the MAX -8 and A320NEO are done too?
https://blog.flight-report.com/infograp ... t%20family.

Smaller aircraft can tolerate a higher CASM and sell due to the RASM benefits of P2P and frequency. Considering how well the A220 is doing, it isn't a question if, but when sales break a thousand.


In non-LCC world, we have an opportunity cost with this sized jet. We have limited resources (pilots, flight attendants, pilots, agents, pilots, below wing staff, pilots, mechanics, pilots, simulators, pilots, pilot training slots, etc.) and the 220 eats up those costs the same as the 321N and has a higher fuel CASM but with 72-74 fewer passengers.

The 320N at my airline's configuration would be 10% better in fuel CASM then 223, not the same. If it sounds the same then the 223 is the same as our 1990s 320s that can carry 27 more passengers.

Maybe in LCC world though that direct 319 v 223 comparison works. The 220 sized aircraft needed to be able to handle the 717 style flight legs but unfortunately, it was not designed for that mission.
 
SEAorPWM
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:35 am

Babyshark wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

not sure how much fuel really plays into it unless you are absolutely committed to that aircraft size. With expensive fuel and scarce pilots the ideal aircraft becomes 321/73Ms unless you get a bunch of 220s tomorrow.

There will always be a market for smaller gauge aircraft, the question is how many? The 73G sold 1150, the A319 having 1484, plus 717s and E195s implies there is a market. I will agree the market share will shrink, but first the business of 50, 76, and 100 seat jets would end.

I think larger aircraft will have more market share, but I still see a market for over two thousand A220s without the A225.


Links for 73G and A319 deliveries:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_ ... Generation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... deliveries

Fuel plays into relative efficiency. The A223 and A320NEO have about the same fuel burn per passenger. Since yield drops with larger guage, there will be markets. Or is their a suggestion the MAX -8 and A320NEO are done too?
https://blog.flight-report.com/infograp ... t%20family.

Smaller aircraft can tolerate a higher CASM and sell due to the RASM benefits of P2P and frequency. Considering how well the A220 is doing, it isn't a question if, but when sales break a thousand.


In non-LCC world, we have an opportunity cost with this sized jet. We have limited resources (pilots, flight attendants, pilots, agents, pilots, below wing staff, pilots, mechanics, pilots, simulators, pilots, pilot training slots, etc.) and the 220 eats up those costs the same as the 321N and has a higher fuel CASM but with 72-74 fewer passengers.

The 320N at my airline's configuration would be 10% better in fuel CASM then 223, not the same. If it sounds the same then the 223 is the same as our 1990s 320s that can carry 27 more passengers.

Maybe in LCC world though that direct 319 v 223 comparison works. The 220 sized aircraft needed to be able to handle the 717 style flight legs but unfortunately, it was not designed for that mission.


Sources?

Also, I find it hard to believe a 30 year old frame can beat a 21st Century-design for economics. Seeing how the 737 and A320 families grew in size and became optimized means the A220 could do the same in 10-20 years.
 
ben7x
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:58 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:06 am

oldJoe wrote:
ben7x wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

Something don`t ad up here. This source says since December 2021 two wet-leased A220s for EW are based in STR and for the summer schedule move to DUS plus three additional frames
source in German only : https://www.aero.de/news-41957/Jede-sechste-A220-von-Air-Baltic-fliegt-bald-fuer-Eurowings.html


2 A220 currently based in STR (will move to DUS) + 3 additional A220 to be based in DUS = 5 aircraft. And then 2 more for 4Y. Just as DUSZRH wrote.


Stating facts without a source is ...................... , don`t worry I found one.
From mid May until October there will be 2 A220s based in MUC for 4Y
source in German only : https://reisetopia.de/news/eurowings-discover-wet-lease/


DUSZRH wrote „to my knowledge“. This is IMO not a fact but more like a possibility. I just wanted to explain how the possibility he (or she) points out could look like. Yes, I could have marked it as a opinion/possibility/rumour etc. or just post a source. My fault.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:05 pm

SEAorPWM wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
There will always be a market for smaller gauge aircraft, the question is how many? The 73G sold 1150, the A319 having 1484, plus 717s and E195s implies there is a market. I will agree the market share will shrink, but first the business of 50, 76, and 100 seat jets would end.

I think larger aircraft will have more market share, but I still see a market for over two thousand A220s without the A225.


Links for 73G and A319 deliveries:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_ ... Generation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... deliveries

Fuel plays into relative efficiency. The A223 and A320NEO have about the same fuel burn per passenger. Since yield drops with larger guage, there will be markets. Or is their a suggestion the MAX -8 and A320NEO are done too?
https://blog.flight-report.com/infograp ... t%20family.

Smaller aircraft can tolerate a higher CASM and sell due to the RASM benefits of P2P and frequency. Considering how well the A220 is doing, it isn't a question if, but when sales break a thousand.


In non-LCC world, we have an opportunity cost with this sized jet. We have limited resources (pilots, flight attendants, pilots, agents, pilots, below wing staff, pilots, mechanics, pilots, simulators, pilots, pilot training slots, etc.) and the 220 eats up those costs the same as the 321N and has a higher fuel CASM but with 72-74 fewer passengers.

The 320N at my airline's configuration would be 10% better in fuel CASM then 223, not the same. If it sounds the same then the 223 is the same as our 1990s 320s that can carry 27 more passengers.

Maybe in LCC world though that direct 319 v 223 comparison works. The 220 sized aircraft needed to be able to handle the 717 style flight legs but unfortunately, it was not designed for that mission.


Sources?

Also, I find it hard to believe a 30 year old frame can beat a 21st Century-design for economics. Seeing how the 737 and A320 families grew in size and became optimized means the A220 could do the same in 10-20 years.

Mostly a reply to Babyshark:
We have A320 operators buying the A223. So something is working. To mind we have Delta, JetBlue, Swiss, AirCanada, and AirFrance and only JetBlue is a LCC. Then we'll have to see if Breeze or AirBaltic disrupts the model.

Since opportunity cost is going to be slots at busy airports and pilot training, I agree gauge has an advantage. Get rid of those RJs. Looking at JetBlue's cost comparison on the A223 vs. E1-190, looking at slide 7, I have to question if the A223 doesn't cost about the same per flight as the E1-175? If not, it isn't much more. With such a low cost per flight, the A223 has a nice niche waiting for it. We already know the writing is on the wall for 50 seat RJs. (2nd link, Delta retiring CRJs by 2023):

http://investor.jetblue.com/~/media/Fil ... update.pdf
https://onemileatatime.com/delta-retiri ... ber%202025

The A220 wouldn't sell if the asserted fuel CASM was correct, in my opinion. Yet look, Airbus is predicting 3,000 A220 sales of the A220! :faint:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/07/11/what- ... rbus-a220/

So time to wait for Farnborough. :hyper:
Or the already discussed sales campaigns where it appears (above) that SAS is very close to an order soon.

I'm good with an estimate of 3,000 sales. Anyone else? :spin:
Lightsaber
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:57 pm

According to this link on the new pre-FAL, production is expected to double over the next few years, but is this just rephrasing the plan to rate 14?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airbus-c ... 00310.html

However, that much added capacity will allow a quick ramp in production. Thus Airbus should be a little more agressive in sales.

I hope with this summer's order announcements (e.g., SAS?, Farnborough?) we have production rate increases.

Lightsaber
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:49 pm

lightsaber wrote:
According to this link on the new pre-FAL, production is expected to double over the next few years,but is this just rephrasing the plan to rate 14?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airbus-c ... 00310.html

However, that much added capacity will allow a quick ramp in production. Thus Airbus should be a little more agressive in sales.

I hope with this summer's order announcements (e.g., SAS?, Farnborough?) we have production rate increases.

Lightsaber

From the article: This new process will enable the A220 production rate to increase from six aircraft a month to 14 aircraft per month by the middle of the decade.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:33 pm

I like the way Air Baltic has transitioned itself to a lessor by the back door. That's 3 new operators that don't show up as orders and they didn't have to wait very long. A win-win-win since I'm sure Airbus is also happy to have more airlines on board so quickly.
 
SA280
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:47 am

Skywatcher wrote:
I like the way Air Baltic has transitioned itself to a lessor by the back door. That's 3 new operators that don't show up as orders and they didn't have to wait very long. A win-win-win since I'm sure Airbus is also happy to have more airlines on board so quickly.

Lessors just rent aircraft for airlines, they do not operate for them.

What Air Baltic is doing is allocating some capacity as a CPA provider.
 
Duke91
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:02 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:18 am

Skywatcher wrote:
I like the way Air Baltic has transitioned itself to a lessor by the back door. That's 3 new operators that don't show up as orders and they didn't have to wait very long. A win-win-win since I'm sure Airbus is also happy to have more airlines on board so quickly.

“You either die as an airline or you live long enough to see yourself become the lessor.”
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:20 am

The Swiss A220-300 will heading to Santiago de Chile for the FIDAE Air Show held from April 5th to 10th 2022
https://twitter.com/LX_Newsroom/status/ ... 3Fpage%3D1

edit : did yesterday a one hour flight MIA - MIA
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/hb-jcu
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:41 pm

Swiss A220-300 HB-JCU flew MIA to MEX. Anyone have an idea to which airline this demonstration is intended ?
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/hb-jcu
 
COMPAVION
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:37 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:18 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Swiss A220-300 HB-JCU flew MIA to MEX. Anyone have an idea to which airline this demonstration is intended ?
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/hb-jcu


Aeroméxico / Connect.
They were wvaluating E190 replacement just before COVID. The candidates are: 190E2 and A220.
Embraer in the incumbent and Airbus has the advantage that Delta, Aeroméxico´s partner already operates the 220.
I would say 50/50 chance for each.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:40 pm

COMPAVION wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Swiss A220-300 HB-JCU flew MIA to MEX. Anyone have an idea to which airline this demonstration is intended ?
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/hb-jcu


Aeroméxico / Connect.
They were wvaluating E190 replacement just before COVID. The candidates are: 190E2 and A220.
Embraer in the incumbent and Airbus has the advantage that Delta, Aeroméxico´s partner already operates the 220.
I would say 50/50 chance for each.


Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of the same airline but had my doubts because their youngest frames are less than 10 years old. Are they so unhappy withe E-190s ? If yes, the A220 has a chance
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:42 pm

SA280 wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I like the way Air Baltic has transitioned itself to a lessor by the back door. That's 3 new operators that don't show up as orders and they didn't have to wait very long. A win-win-win since I'm sure Airbus is also happy to have more airlines on board so quickly.

Lessors just rent aircraft for airlines, they do not operate for them.

What Air Baltic is doing is allocating some capacity as a CPA provider.

The point was, as a sales tool, airlines love real world data on their routes. They know what prior aircraft cost to operate, the dispatch reliability, and maturity. This is a litmus test of a trial. Within a month, they will know if they want to tank with Airbus about the A220. If a longer trial is there, I consider it a good thing.

The airlines will track fuel burn, required maintenance, and fuel closely. This is a case of success breeding success.
 
SA280
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SA280 wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I like the way Air Baltic has transitioned itself to a lessor by the back door. That's 3 new operators that don't show up as orders and they didn't have to wait very long. A win-win-win since I'm sure Airbus is also happy to have more airlines on board so quickly.

Lessors just rent aircraft for airlines, they do not operate for them.

What Air Baltic is doing is allocating some capacity as a CPA provider.

The point was, as a sales tool, airlines love real world data on their routes. They know what prior aircraft cost to operate, the dispatch reliability, and maturity. This is a litmus test of a trial. Within a month, they will know if they want to tank with Airbus about the A220. If a longer trial is there, I consider it a good thing.

The airlines will track fuel burn, required maintenance, and fuel closely. This is a case of success breeding success.

As long as it is an ACMI, not a dry lease, I don't think those airlines are getting those real data on fuel consumption and DMC as this is naturally sensitive information for Air Baltic's pricing leverage in those deals. But for sure they can experience other aspects of the A220, such as schedule reliability and passengers experience.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:16 pm

SA280 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
SA280 wrote:
Lessors just rent aircraft for airlines, they do not operate for them.

What Air Baltic is doing is allocating some capacity as a CPA provider.

The point was, as a sales tool, airlines love real world data on their routes. They know what prior aircraft cost to operate, the dispatch reliability, and maturity. This is a litmus test of a trial. Within a month, they will know if they want to tank with Airbus about the A220. If a longer trial is there, I consider it a good thing.

The airlines will track fuel burn, required maintenance, and fuel closely. This is a case of success breeding success.

As long as it is an ACMI, not a dry lease, I don't think those airlines are getting those real data on fuel consumption and DMC as this is naturally sensitive information for Air Baltic's pricing leverage in those deals. But for sure they can experience other aspects of the A220, such as schedule reliability and passengers experience.


Do you really believe Air Baltic can hide all information about the performance of the aircraft ? Why they even would do this ? SAS can easily find out how much fuel they take for a certain flight at their home base. The other ACMI leases for EW and 4Y are even more useless to hide because the LH Group member Swiss have the type already in their fleet. Given that Airbus had hired Air Baltic several times for demonstration flights, that would make absolutely no sense to hide numbers from a potentional new customer. !
 
SA280
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:23 pm

oldJoe wrote:
SA280 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The point was, as a sales tool, airlines love real world data on their routes. They know what prior aircraft cost to operate, the dispatch reliability, and maturity. This is a litmus test of a trial. Within a month, they will know if they want to tank with Airbus about the A220. If a longer trial is there, I consider it a good thing.

The airlines will track fuel burn, required maintenance, and fuel closely. This is a case of success breeding success.

As long as it is an ACMI, not a dry lease, I don't think those airlines are getting those real data on fuel consumption and DMC as this is naturally sensitive information for Air Baltic's pricing leverage in those deals. But for sure they can experience other aspects of the A220, such as schedule reliability and passengers experience.


Do you really believe Air Baltic can hide all information about the performance of the aircraft ? Why they even would do this ? SAS can easily find out how much fuel they take for a certain flight at their home base. The other ACMI leases for EW and 4Y are even more useless to hide because the LH Group member Swiss have the type already in their fleet. Given that Airbus had hired Air Baltic several times for demonstration flights, that would make absolutely no sense to hide numbers from a potentional new customer. !

Well, then this is just another evidence that those are not intended to be trials as many here would expect, but just simply ACMI contracts to get extra capacity in summer season.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:33 pm

yyztpa2 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
According to this link on the new pre-FAL, production is expected to double over the next few years,but is this just rephrasing the plan to rate 14?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airbus-c ... 00310.html

However, that much added capacity will allow a quick ramp in production. Thus Airbus should be a little more agressive in sales.

I hope with this summer's order announcements (e.g., SAS?, Farnborough?) we have production rate increases.

Lightsaber

From the article: This new process will enable the A220 production rate to increase from six aircraft a month to 14 aircraft per month by the middle of the decade.


They've been talking 'middle of the decade' for over a year. See the 2020 Annual report.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:43 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SA280 wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I like the way Air Baltic has transitioned itself to a lessor by the back door. That's 3 new operators that don't show up as orders and they didn't have to wait very long. A win-win-win since I'm sure Airbus is also happy to have more airlines on board so quickly.

Lessors just rent aircraft for airlines, they do not operate for them.

What Air Baltic is doing is allocating some capacity as a CPA provider.

The point was, as a sales tool, airlines love real world data on their routes. They know what prior aircraft cost to operate, the dispatch reliability, and maturity. This is a litmus test of a trial. Within a month, they will know if they want to tank with Airbus about the A220. If a longer trial is there, I consider it a good thing.

The airlines will track fuel burn, required maintenance, and fuel closely. This is a case of success breeding success.


I think you're trying a little too hard to find good news in this. Airlines buy new types and large volumes of aircraft without 'real world data' all the time. See ANA's order for 50 787s, AA's order for 100 MAX8s, Delta's order for 25 A330neos, Swiss' buy of A200s, UA's order for 150 MAX10s...

Only on a.net would a major customer clearly having more aircraft than it needs (and yet more on order!) be seen as a sign of imminent sales success.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
SA280 wrote:
Lessors just rent aircraft for airlines, they do not operate for them.

What Air Baltic is doing is allocating some capacity as a CPA provider.

The point was, as a sales tool, airlines love real world data on their routes. They know what prior aircraft cost to operate, the dispatch reliability, and maturity. This is a litmus test of a trial. Within a month, they will know if they want to tank with Airbus about the A220. If a longer trial is there, I consider it a good thing.

The airlines will track fuel burn, required maintenance, and fuel closely. This is a case of success breeding success.


I think you're trying a little too hard to find good news in this. Airlines buy new types and large volumes of aircraft without 'real world data' all the time. See ANA's order for 50 787s, AA's order for 100 MAX8s, Delta's order for 25 A330neos, Swiss' buy of A200s, UA's order for 150 MAX10s...

Only on a.net would a major customer clearly having more aircraft than it needs (and yet more on order!) be seen as a sign of imminent sales success.


The point here with SAS is clearly what lightsaber wrote. SAS said last year that they want more real data from both the E2 and the A220 and thus leasing in both types before ordering.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:13 am

oldJoe wrote:
The point here with SAS is clearly what lightsaber wrote. SAS said last year that they want more real data from both the E2 and the A220 and thus leasing in both types before ordering.


To others:
As SAS was quite clear they wanted more data, this will satisfy them (hopefully) as they passed on both aircraft before on reliability concerns:
https://airinsight.com/sas-demands-bett ... 220-or-e2/

SAS wants to have guarantees that both aircraft models can operate reliably in the often rugged northern polar climate. It will carefully have monitored the performance of Norway’s Wideroe E190-E2 operations since 2018.


What better way to determine reliability than run the aircraft on your own routes? Per the link, they are looking at replacing 81 aircraft with a single type.

I believe the A220 will sell itself. This will probably be the largest order at Farnborough for either the A220 or E2. For such a skeptical customer, it is a win to do a demo trial.

Lightsaber

ps, there is no hiding dispatch reliability and fuel upload. The fact so many airlines wanted the aircraft is great news.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5605
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:57 am

oldJoe wrote:
The point here with SAS is clearly what lightsaber wrote. SAS said last year that they want more real data from both the E2 and the A220 and thus leasing in both types before ordering.


Almost sounds like they're trying to avoid repeating their 737-600 mistake...

Meanwhile, in A220 land, I have some concerns about the reliability myself. Bombardier has a reputation, and while it's an Airbus bird now, the fact remains that Bombardier did the engineering and vendor picking. See "Q400".
That said, other carriers seem to be making it work, but my sample size of flights on them is too small for me to have developed a solid gut feel. My jetBlue A220 flight two weeks ago took a mechanical delay on a taxiway while we "rebooted," which is a classic Bombardier troubleshooting technique!

Granted, the E190 apparently has some issues in the reliability department, and I understood (from this forum) that they gave jetBlue fits for quite some time.

Thankfully, I work over in Boeingville, where everything is perfect and nothing ever goes wrong. Just ask them! :-D
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14175
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:52 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
SAS will be flying both their own E195 E1 machines this summer, but also two Air Baltic A220-300. They'll look at the performance / price, everything. So the door is definitely not shut for the A220 for SAS. One of them will be chosen to replace the aging 737-700 and A319-100 models.

translated to English:
https://frequentflyer-no.translate.goog ... r_pto=wapp


When did SAS get e195’s?
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:52 pm

lightsaber wrote :
Now this is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed an Americas tour. I'm very curious as to which airlines are part of the tour.


I can`t tell you which airlines are part of the tour but I have an eagles eye on it. I`m even surprised they start at Miami to be honest. Until now what happend ?
1- HB-JCU flew from Montreal to Miami and performed one flight MIA to MIA ( for whom I need help )
2- Than to Mexico City and performed two flights maybe for Aero Mexico Connect
3- Headed to Panama City and performed a flight maybe for Copa Airlines ?
Where next ? Any idea ?
 
Kilgen
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:52 am

oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
Now this is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed an Americas tour. I'm very curious as to which airlines are part of the tour.


I can`t tell you which airlines are part of the tour but I have an eagles eye on it. I`m even surprised they start at Miami to be honest. Until now what happend ?
1- HB-JCU flew from Montreal to Miami and performed one flight MIA to MIA ( for whom I need help )
2- Than to Mexico City and performed two flights maybe for Aero Mexico Connect
3- Headed to Panama City and performed a flight maybe for Copa Airlines ?
Where next ? Any idea ?


It is headed to South America next. It will be in SCL, EZE, CGH, VCP and GRU before returning to Europe. In more detail: https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/03/fo ... n-it-meet/
 
Someone83
Posts: 5735
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:38 am

Kiwirob wrote:

When did SAS get e195’s?


They have leased 6 for their Link subsidiary, planned to start before the Summer

https://www.planespotters.net/photo/125 ... 190-200-lr
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14175
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:36 am

Someone83 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

When did SAS get e195’s?


They have leased 6 for their Link subsidiary, planned to start before the Summer

https://www.planespotters.net/photo/125 ... 190-200-lr


Will they be flying domestic in Norway? I like the WF e190s, I get them occasionally between SVG and BGO.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:49 pm

Kilgen wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
Now this is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed an Americas tour. I'm very curious as to which airlines are part of the tour.


I can`t tell you which airlines are part of the tour but I have an eagles eye on it. I`m even surprised they start at Miami to be honest. Until now what happend ?
1- HB-JCU flew from Montreal to Miami and performed one flight MIA to MIA ( for whom I need help )
2- Than to Mexico City and performed two flights maybe for Aero Mexico Connect
3- Headed to Panama City and performed a flight maybe for Copa Airlines ?
Where next ? Any idea ?


It is headed to South America next. It will be in SCL, EZE, CGH, VCP and GRU before returning to Europe. In more detail: https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/03/fo ... n-it-meet/

Thank you. A comprehensive tour. I couldn't help but note the link points out a great variety of aircraft the A220 might replace from the Q400, E-170 (upgauge) through the obvious contenders up to the A320.

With business yield in the doldrums, frequency isn't paying off. So replacing RJs with a 140 (ish) seater makes sense to reduce unit costs. Hopefully this starts some serious discussions.

I remain very excited about the possibility of the SAS order due to the potential size of the order (I posted a link above that 81 prior generation aircraft were to be replaced). It never hurts to have another major operator driving MRO deals, increasing parts distribution, crew training, and driving demand for parts overhauls.

The A220 already will meet minimum economics of scale for rebuilds:minimum of one batch of 25+ parts every year takes a fleet of over 300 aircraft with a minimum of 400 for easy scheduling, in my opinion. Yes, the 717 supported fewer aircraft by lower frequency overhauls (requires airlines buying more spare parts, which hurts operating costs).

The goal of course is to get up to A320 or 737 levels where the vendors just cannot handle a year's work in one batch, so they run 2 to 4 batches per year (what I've heard touring vendors). That means airlines can run very lean on spare parts (saving the purchase and warehousing costs).

The A220 is a long way from that goal. First we need 20+ airlines opperating the type so leasing companies have an easier time placing aircraft. The AirBaltic seeding experience might just enable that...
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:38 pm

lightsaber wrote :
I couldn't help but note the link points out a great variety of aircraft the A220 might replace from the Q400 ............


This isn`t the first time a Q400 could be replaced by an A220-100. Luxair is still considering this which would look like this :
http://www.airline-empires.com/index.php?/gallery/image/30807-luxair-airbus-a220-100/
If Airbus anounce the -500 than Luxair would be a sole A220 operator with all three variants in its fleet
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24181
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:59 am

oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
I couldn't help but note the link points out a great variety of aircraft the A220 might replace from the Q400 ............


This isn`t the first time a Q400 could be replaced by an A220-100. Luxair is still considering this which would look like this :
http://www.airline-empires.com/index.php?/gallery/image/30807-luxair-airbus-a220-100/
If Airbus anounce the -500 than Luxair would be a sole A220 operator with all three variants in its fleet

Do you have a link on Luxair actively being in an A220 sales campaign? I have only seen they are interested in the A220-500:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/2998 ... s-a220-500

Lightsaber
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
I couldn't help but note the link points out a great variety of aircraft the A220 might replace from the Q400 ............


This isn`t the first time a Q400 could be replaced by an A220-100. Luxair is still considering this which would look like this :
http://www.airline-empires.com/index.php?/gallery/image/30807-luxair-airbus-a220-100/
If Airbus anounce the -500 than Luxair would be a sole A220 operator with all three variants in its fleet

Do you have a link on Luxair actively being in an A220 sales campaign? I have only seen they are interested in the A220-500:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/2998 ... s-a220-500

Lightsaber


Your link is a summary of the original interview from January 17th 2022 ( in German only )
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/wenn-airbus-den-a220-500-bringen-wuerde-waere-das-fuer-luxair-genial

from the interview translated :
Still, we need to start fleet renewal in 2024 or 2025. We look at the Airbus A220 and the Embraer E2. With it we can replace the Dash 8 and the Boeing 737-700.

and
Would it be possible for Luxair to end up operating just one model of aircraft?
If Airbus would bring the A220-500, then that would of course be awesome for us. But that doesn't exist yet. Therefore, the chance of a mixed fleet is high. We definitely need a bigger aircraft above A220-300 and E915-E2. Luxair could fill jets like the Airbus A320 or the A321 well.
 
744SPX
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:05 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
The point here with SAS is clearly what lightsaber wrote. SAS said last year that they want more real data from both the E2 and the A220 and thus leasing in both types before ordering.


Almost sounds like they're trying to avoid repeating their 737-600 mistake...



The mistake being not getting that rocket ship certified for APB blended winglets? :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
Scoreboard
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:06 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2022

Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:36 pm

Kilgen wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote :
Now this is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed an Americas tour. I'm very curious as to which airlines are part of the tour.


I can`t tell you which airlines are part of the tour but I have an eagles eye on it. I`m even surprised they start at Miami to be honest. Until now what happend ?
1- HB-JCU flew from Montreal to Miami and performed one flight MIA to MIA ( for whom I need help )
2- Than to Mexico City and performed two flights maybe for Aero Mexico Connect
3- Headed to Panama City and performed a flight maybe for Copa Airlines ?
Where next ? Any idea ?


It is headed to South America next. It will be in SCL, EZE, CGH, VCP and GRU before returning to Europe. In more detail: https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/03/fo ... n-it-meet/


A post on the Airbus Facebook page has a short video of HB-JCU in the static display at FIDAE 2022
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos