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tphuang wrote:I'm eagerly waiting for A220-500 announcement. It probably won't happen this year, but there will be an explosion of orders if it does get announced.
SEU wrote:tphuang wrote:I'm eagerly waiting for A220-500 announcement. It probably won't happen this year, but there will be an explosion of orders if it does get announced.
Agreed, it will be a biggest aviation news since the 787 came out. The A220-500 sounds like the perfect plane for a lot of airlines and the future of aviation.
SEU wrote:tphuang wrote:I'm eagerly waiting for A220-500 announcement. It probably won't happen this year, but there will be an explosion of orders if it does get announced.
Agreed, it will be a biggest aviation news since the 787 came out. The A220-500 sounds like the perfect plane for a lot of airlines and the future of aviation.
Duke91 wrote:I am sure that the A225 would sell like hot cake (is this the right way to say it?).
oldJoe wrote:The next step for Airbus in my opinion is to anounce the A220-300LR and make Neeleman ( Breeze ) and Gauss ( Air Baltic ) to exercise some if not all remaining options of the two airlines. Reminder : Breeze has 40 options and Air Baltic 30 options left to be firmed. Just my two
I hope that Omicron don`t stop the next big airshow and the likes of Udvar Hazy can do what they are best at it : placing orders !
https://britishairshows.com/farnborough-airshow
DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
RalXWB wrote:Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
The A320NEO is also in trouble? With 3748 orders? Not in the real world.
RalXWB wrote:Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
The A320NEO is also in trouble? With 3748 orders? Not in the real world.
Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
DLHAM wrote:Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
Kind of, it would definitely eat into A320neo sales, but its left pocket or right pocket for Airbus. The A32X line is extremely well occupied by the A321, which brings in more money, and the remaining A320s on order. The point is that the A225 can compete much better against the MAX8 than the A20N in many cases.
Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:Opus99 wrote:A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
Kind of, it would definitely eat into A320neo sales, but its left pocket or right pocket for Airbus. The A32X line is extremely well occupied by the A321, which brings in more money, and the remaining A320s on order. The point is that the A225 can compete much better against the MAX8 than the A20N in many cases.
That is correct. Airbus will have to see those 320N out anyway. I see 225 coming online. But it’s a chess game right. If it comes online (marketable) in the next 2 years and it takes 5 years to bring to market. That’s 28/29. At that same time a new family of aircraft will be coming up that will undermine 225. So that’s another aspect of it that Airbus has to consider
DLHAM wrote:Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:
Kind of, it would definitely eat into A320neo sales, but its left pocket or right pocket for Airbus. The A32X line is extremely well occupied by the A321, which brings in more money, and the remaining A320s on order. The point is that the A225 can compete much better against the MAX8 than the A20N in many cases.
That is correct. Airbus will have to see those 320N out anyway. I see 225 coming online. But it’s a chess game right. If it comes online (marketable) in the next 2 years and it takes 5 years to bring to market. That’s 28/29. At that same time a new family of aircraft will be coming up that will undermine 225. So that’s another aspect of it that Airbus has to consider
Of course, but do you think a simple A220-Stretch will take that long? AFAIK Bombardier had their plans for a CS500 ready to go. This Stretch was considered from the very beginning.
All depends on that Boeing does next, new 757/767 sized airplane? New 737 sized airplane? Both at the same time is not possible, covering all with one plane as well. But whatever they do an A220 Stretch IMO is low work, low cost, low risk. They should not wait too long.
DLHAM wrote:Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
Kind of, it would definitely eat into A320neo sales, but its left pocket or right pocket for Airbus. The A32X line is extremely well occupied by the A321, which brings in more money, and the remaining A320s on order. The point is that the A225 can compete much better against the MAX8 than the A20N in many cases.
Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:Opus99 wrote:That is correct. Airbus will have to see those 320N out anyway. I see 225 coming online. But it’s a chess game right. If it comes online (marketable) in the next 2 years and it takes 5 years to bring to market. That’s 28/29. At that same time a new family of aircraft will be coming up that will undermine 225. So that’s another aspect of it that Airbus has to consider
Of course, but do you think a simple A220-Stretch will take that long? AFAIK Bombardier had their plans for a CS500 ready to go. This Stretch was considered from the very beginning.
All depends on that Boeing does next, new 757/767 sized airplane? New 737 sized airplane? Both at the same time is not possible, covering all with one plane as well. But whatever they do an A220 Stretch IMO is low work, low cost, low risk. They should not wait too long.
Yeah. I think it will take 5. Thé 321XLR is taking 4 and that’s just an extra tank and few modifications. It will happen though and I think it will be a success, the 220 family is a very good family. And a 500 rounds that off. But they have to think about how it fits into their strategy. They could just apply new tech engines on fhe 220 next decade. And then make the 321 it’s own family that can maybe grow into a 767 size? That is have the 321-200 as one size (the current size) and maybe a 321-300 and then a 321-400. I don’t know. That’s what I think
JonesNL wrote:Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:
Of course, but do you think a simple A220-Stretch will take that long? AFAIK Bombardier had their plans for a CS500 ready to go. This Stretch was considered from the very beginning.
All depends on that Boeing does next, new 757/767 sized airplane? New 737 sized airplane? Both at the same time is not possible, covering all with one plane as well. But whatever they do an A220 Stretch IMO is low work, low cost, low risk. They should not wait too long.
Yeah. I think it will take 5. Thé 321XLR is taking 4 and that’s just an extra tank and few modifications. It will happen though and I think it will be a success, the 220 family is a very good family. And a 500 rounds that off. But they have to think about how it fits into their strategy. They could just apply new tech engines on fhe 220 next decade. And then make the 321 it’s own family that can maybe grow into a 767 size? That is have the 321-200 as one size (the current size) and maybe a 321-300 and then a 321-400. I don’t know. That’s what I think
Playing with the location of highly combustible fluids is probably a completely different risk category compared to adding a existing frame or 2. And from my limited knowledge, newly introduced risk is quite leading in certification effort. I don’t think it will take 5 years, but we will have to wait for the announcement of Airbus. Usually that is the best indicator…
Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
PhilipBass wrote:Are they waiting for some Airshow to announce this 4000nm A220-300? If so, which one?
https://simpleflying.com/breeze-airbus-a220-aux-tank/
Opus99 wrote:JonesNL wrote:Opus99 wrote:Yeah. I think it will take 5. Thé 321XLR is taking 4 and that’s just an extra tank and few modifications. It will happen though and I think it will be a success, the 220 family is a very good family. And a 500 rounds that off. But they have to think about how it fits into their strategy. They could just apply new tech engines on fhe 220 next decade. And then make the 321 it’s own family that can maybe grow into a 767 size? That is have the 321-200 as one size (the current size) and maybe a 321-300 and then a 321-400. I don’t know. That’s what I think
Playing with the location of highly combustible fluids is probably a completely different risk category compared to adding a existing frame or 2. And from my limited knowledge, newly introduced risk is quite leading in certification effort. I don’t think it will take 5 years, but we will have to wait for the announcement of Airbus. Usually that is the best indicator…
Okay 4? 4.5? 350F is taking about 4 years. ALC thinks it will be 5 because of just general delays with these things but let’s see
JonesNL wrote:Opus99 wrote:JonesNL wrote:
Playing with the location of highly combustible fluids is probably a completely different risk category compared to adding a existing frame or 2. And from my limited knowledge, newly introduced risk is quite leading in certification effort. I don’t think it will take 5 years, but we will have to wait for the announcement of Airbus. Usually that is the best indicator…
Okay 4? 4.5? 350F is taking about 4 years. ALC thinks it will be 5 because of just general delays with these things but let’s see
Again different risk. A lot of structural changes are implemented in a F conversion…
mjoelnir wrote:Opus99 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think as well that Airbus should launch the A220-500 sooner than later. This is the airplane that Airbus and Boeing were afraid of when Bombardier worked on the CSeries (CS500)! There is a reason, it would beat the A320neo and MAX8 handsdown in terms of efficiency on routes shorter than 3.5 - 4 hours. For Airbus this is no big deal as their bestseller is the A321 which is uneffected from an A225 and also they own the CSeries Programme anyway, but for Boeing this means real trouble as the MAX8 is their bestseller, which would be in direct competition to the A225 and only sell for its range, price or commonality then.
Not building the A225 would be the same mistake that Boeing made not building the 717-300 in the late 90s/early 2000s. And the best is that the A225 is no big deal, simple stretch by a few meters.
A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
No in this world is the A320neo in trouble. The A320neo is the second best selling narrow body model, right behind the A321neo. It matches about all sales, all models of the 737MAX and as a model it out delivers all 737MAX models combined 2 to 1.
The main problem a A220-500 would face against the A320 are production rates. I doubt we will see a A220-500 before Airbus hits a production rate of 15 to 20 frames a month in regards to the A220.
Opus99 wrote:mjoelnir wrote:Opus99 wrote:A320NEO is also in trouble. So if Airbus is happy to kill it then that’s fine I guess
No in this world is the A320neo in trouble. The A320neo is the second best selling narrow body model, right behind the A321neo. It matches about all sales, all models of the 737MAX and as a model it out delivers all 737MAX models combined 2 to 1.
The main problem a A220-500 would face against the A320 are production rates. I doubt we will see a A220-500 before Airbus hits a production rate of 15 to 20 frames a month in regards to the A220.
Not before max crashes. We are talking about obsolescence. 220 still cannot match max sales or production for a long time. If it kills max 8. It will kill 320NEO. But I don’t expect many of you to agree.
Opus99 wrote:That is correct. Airbus will have to see those 320N out anyway. I see 225 coming online. But it’s a chess game right. If it comes online (marketable) in the next 2 years and it takes 5 years to bring to market. That’s 28/29. At that same time a new family of aircraft will be coming up that will undermine 225. So that’s another aspect of it that Airbus has to consider
Opus99 wrote:JonesNL wrote:Opus99 wrote:Okay 4? 4.5? 350F is taking about 4 years. ALC thinks it will be 5 because of just general delays with these things but let’s see
Again different risk. A lot of structural changes are implemented in a F conversion…
So how long do you reckon?
787-10 took 5 years and that was a simple stretch
lightsaber wrote:PhilipBass wrote:Are they waiting for some Airshow to announce this 4000nm A220-300? If so, which one?
https://simpleflying.com/breeze-airbus-a220-aux-tank/
The business jet, the "Two Twenty" has developed the aux-tanks as your article notes. What needs to happen is a small MTOW increase on the A220-300 (and -100) to have useful payload with even more fuel in passenger duty. Now, if you were flying an A221 from LCY-JFK with all lie flat business seats, the current MTOW would work. Breeze will fly more passengers, so needs to be able to lift more weight.
I fully expect AirBaltic, JetBlue, Delta, Korean Air, and Breeze to purchase the extended range A223 when available. Possibly even A221s (in very limited numbers). While it will be a niche, I could overall see a hundred+ more sold. Not bad to add to the backlog...
Lightsaber
tphuang wrote:It's not a 1 A220-500 replace 1 A320NEO scenario. It could be a MAX8 vs A220 scenario where A320NEO has no chance. It could be an A220-300 vs A220-500 scenario where the bigger model will be more profitable. It could be a scenario of A320NEO + small number of A321NEO vs A220-500 and a large number of A321NEO.
oldJoe wrote:The next step for Airbus in my opinion is to anounce the A220-300LR and make Neeleman ( Breeze ) and Gauss ( Air Baltic ) to exercise some if not all remaining options of the two airlines. Reminder : Breeze has 40 options and Air Baltic 30 options left to be firmed. Just my two
I hope that Omicron don`t stop the next big airshow and the likes of Udvar Hazy can do what they are best at it : placing orders !
https://britishairshows.com/farnborough-airshow
flightsimer wrote:oldJoe wrote:The next step for Airbus in my opinion is to anounce the A220-300LR and make Neeleman ( Breeze ) and Gauss ( Air Baltic ) to exercise some if not all remaining options of the two airlines. Reminder : Breeze has 40 options and Air Baltic 30 options left to be firmed. Just my two
I hope that Omicron don`t stop the next big airshow and the likes of Udvar Hazy can do what they are best at it : placing orders !
https://britishairshows.com/farnborough-airshow
The last 20 A220-300’s Breeze ordered were the LR’s.
tphuang wrote:It's not a 1 A220-500 replace 1 A320NEO scenario. I could be a MAX8 vs A220 scenario where A320NEO has no chance. It could be an A220-300 vs A220-500 scenario where the bigger model will be more profitable. It could be a scenario of A320NEO + small number of A321NEO vs A220-500 and a large number of A321NEO.
If Airbus needs to get to a point where it has A220-100/300/500 to cover 100 to 170 seat market and A320.5 to A322 covering 180 to 250 seat market, why keep holding this up? Why delay this project when there are no other clear viable project on the current pipeline?
FluidFlow wrote:To be fair, Airbus is in the driving seat in the NB market and they should try to stay there. What is by far the biggest challenge Boeing and Airbus are meeting? The next generational change. The time they have to move away from the classic A320 and 737 families. Now why is this change such a big challenge? For the first time in the history of aviation the two manufacturers have to introduce a new type (or even just a derivative) that has to be produced at a rate of 60+ aircraft a month almost from the get go. Of course they can overlap production a bit but the moment the next thing comes, sales of the old will dry up. So the balance act of winding down one line and ramping up the next one (extremely fast) while also making sure cash flow is there to finance this will be a real challenge.
Even Airbus can not just slap a new wing on the A321Neo and call it quits. To be competitive it needs a highly automated production line and will also have to go trough full certification. No one will allow another 777X clusterfuck certification. A new wing on the A321 will mean a full certification. There will be a lot of changes and it will be a new airplane even if it keeps the old metal fuselage. So it will be no walk in the park.
Now what is the real amazing trump card Airbus has. It is the A220 that is not profitable yet but it is ready to go. Airbus will have to bring the -500 to market to cover the 100-160 seat market with a production rate of around 25 a month in 2028. It is way simpler to introduce a product when another one is making money. It also allows Airbus to design the next NB in the 170-300 seat class without compromises.
So what could happen is, that Airbus will use the A321N fuselage and stretch it, put a new Wing on it and replace the cockpit with an upgraded A220 cockpit. It is a new aircraft but Airbus will have two NB-families with the same cockpit ranging from 100-300 seats, with possible ranges of 5000+nm.
This can not be matched by Boeing with one aircraft. Now for this to happen Airbus needs to push hard for market share with the A220 and this will only happen if Airbus can offer the A225. If sales go through the roof, introduce a third line of A220 production (best dedicated to the 225 alone) in Europe. Then the foundation is there to go the next step with the A321.
flee wrote:tphuang wrote:It's not a 1 A220-500 replace 1 A320NEO scenario. I could be a MAX8 vs A220 scenario where A320NEO has no chance. It could be an A220-300 vs A220-500 scenario where the bigger model will be more profitable. It could be a scenario of A320NEO + small number of A321NEO vs A220-500 and a large number of A321NEO.
If Airbus needs to get to a point where it has A220-100/300/500 to cover 100 to 170 seat market and A320.5 to A322 covering 180 to 250 seat market, why keep holding this up? Why delay this project when there are no other clear viable project on the current pipeline?
I think one big obstacle is pilot ratings - if A220 and A320 does not have cockpit commonality, it makes the A220 a harder sell. However, if the A220-500 becomes pervasive airlines will scramble to order it, just like they are scrambling to order A321s.
Airbus needs to look at its A220-A320 portfolio as one family so that they can come up with a sustainable business plan for all family models. But please don't take too long and procrastinate - you might end up like Boeing missing the middle of the market boat....
jbs2886 wrote:flightsimer wrote:oldJoe wrote:The next step for Airbus in my opinion is to anounce the A220-300LR and make Neeleman ( Breeze ) and Gauss ( Air Baltic ) to exercise some if not all remaining options of the two airlines. Reminder : Breeze has 40 options and Air Baltic 30 options left to be firmed. Just my two
I hope that Omicron don`t stop the next big airshow and the likes of Udvar Hazy can do what they are best at it : placing orders !
https://britishairshows.com/farnborough-airshow
The last 20 A220-300’s Breeze ordered were the LR’s.
Source? Because the LR hasn’t been launched.
No mention in Airbus release: https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... der-for-20
reidar76 wrote:
3) A220-500 can't match A320 capacity
If the A220-300 is stretched by 3.71 meters, the same difference as A220-100 to A220-300, the A220-500 will almost be at 737-10 length. In passenger capacity it will still be smaller than the A320. At some point a six abreast aircraft will be more efficient. I think a stretch of more than 3.71 meters, for example matching A321/757-200 lenght, is unrealistic.