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Hawaiian Aviation Thread - 2021

Has mask wearing been required at KOA even though the entire terminal is open-air?

Yes. I was there the first week of January and again last week. Hopefully the federal mask mandate will end in a couple more weeks.

Hawaiian is ending service to Orlando after Sept 8.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/hawai ... d-honolulu

hawaiian717 wrote:

Hawaiian is ending service to Orlando after Sept 8.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/hawai ... d-honolulu

Not surprised, this route never made much sense for a variety of reasons. I wonder if they’ll try a different market in the Eastern US.

I knew the Orlando service was a cheap way for Aussies/Kiwis to travel to Orlando and it was on the way instead of cheaper Asian compeititon.

Well I sampled Southwest’s inter island service this week, and am sorry I did. Figured you cant go wrong for $29, but you can. I am really curious how long this will go on. WN has a very weird schedule with some aircraft doing multiple island hops, and others seemingly randomly flying inter island after arriving from the mainland. E.g. SMF-KOA-OGG. This schedule seems to make the operation extremely prone to delays, as I experienced and also observed.

I flew HNL-KOA. A/C 1 went tech, a/c 2 scheduled and then pulled to operate HNL-LIH-HNL before HNL-KOA. I guess LIH had more pax? Ultimately flight cancelled and all pax reaccomodated on a later flight, which still had empty seats.

I flew KOA-OGG. This one, thankfully operated on time, however load was abysmal. 57 pax on a 175 seat MAX.

Considering the loads and the “goodwill” being generated, not sure this operation is assured to be a success.

flyaa757 wrote:

WN has a very weird schedule with some aircraft doing multiple island hops, and others seemingly randomly flying inter island after arriving from the mainland. E.g. SMF-KOA-OGG.

That’s exactly what they do. Fly over from the mainland, then hop around the islands for a day or two before going back. It, along with not needing to run as many turns per day on the interisland schedule, helps avoid the engine overheating issues that Aloha experienced with the CFM56 engines on the 737-300, -400, and -700.

hawaiian717 wrote:

Hawaiian is ending service to Orlando after Sept 8.

When the route was announced and begun a couple of years ago, some speculated that those odd adds -- wasn't AUS the other one? -- were simply someplace for HA to use the a/c that were available as covid shut down much of HA's int'l flying. Seems to me some of those int'l routes are returning (or soon will be) so back come the "extra" long range a/c.

bb

SANFan wrote:

hawaiian717 wrote:

Hawaiian is ending service to Orlando after Sept 8.

When the route was announced and begun a couple of years ago, some speculated that those odd adds -- wasn't AUS the other one? -- were simply someplace for HA to use the a/c that were available as covid shut down much of HA's int'l flying. Seems to me some of those int'l routes are returning (or soon will be) so back come the "extra" long range a/c.

bb

It’s been running for a year what’s interesting is the AUS hasn’t been cut yet.

x1234 wrote:

I knew the Orlando service was a cheap way for Aussies/Kiwis to travel to Orlando and it was on the way instead of cheaper Asian compeititon.

HA has just restarted New Zealand service. Japan just restarted a short time ago, I believe. This MCO run has been done during Covid while there has been virtually no international service by HA. So I am wondering if MCO has been cut with the HA increase of international flights again. HA has not increased their A330 fleet, so the plane has to come off of some other route. Just my $0.02….

Wneast wrote:

SANFan wrote:

hawaiian717 wrote:

Hawaiian is ending service to Orlando after Sept 8.

When the route was announced and begun a couple of years ago, some speculated that those odd adds -- wasn't AUS the other one? -- were simply someplace for HA to use the a/c that were available as covid shut down much of HA's int'l flying. Seems to me some of those int'l routes are returning (or soon will be) so back come the "extra" long range a/c.

bb

It’s been running for a year what’s interesting is the AUS hasn’t been cut yet.

AUS is doing well for them.

hawaiian717 wrote:

Hawaiian is ending service to Orlando after Sept 8.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/hawai ... d-honolulu

With the 787 delays and the rebuilding of the Japan network, something had to give. The route did well seasonally, but there aren't enough airplanes to fly the entire schedule.

WN732 wrote:

Wneast wrote:

SANFan wrote:

When the route was announced and begun a couple of years ago, some speculated that those odd adds -- wasn't AUS the other one? -- were simply someplace for HA to use the a/c that were available as covid shut down much of HA's int'l flying. Seems to me some of those int'l routes are returning (or soon will be) so back come the "extra" long range a/c.

bb

It’s been running for a year what’s interesting is the AUS hasn’t been cut yet.

AUS is doing well for them.

HA faces the possibility of AA adding AUS-HNL nonstop service if HA drops AUS-HNL nonstop service, whereas HA isn't currently facing the risk of another airline adding MCO-HNL nonstop service.

AUS-HNL is also approximately 1,000 miles shorter than that of MCO-HNL.

WN732 wrote:

Wneast wrote:

SANFan wrote:

When the route was announced and begun a couple of years ago, some speculated that those odd adds -- wasn't AUS the other one? -- were simply someplace for HA to use the a/c that were available as covid shut down much of HA's int'l flying. Seems to me some of those int'l routes are returning (or soon will be) so back come the "extra" long range a/c.

bb

It’s been running for a year what’s interesting is the AUS hasn’t been cut yet.

AUS is doing well for them.

AUS is not doing well for HA. Load factors are in the 60s on average and as low as 40% some months. Yields are basically in line with MCOs and LFs are 15% lower than MCO on an average month. Their only saving grace is shorter stage length than MCO or AUS would be a goner as well. Likely to happen in the not too distant future as HA ramps up international flying.

Rookinla wrote:

WN732 wrote:

AUS is doing well for them.

AUS is not doing well for HA. Load factors are in the 60s on average and as low as 40% some months. Yields are basically in line with MCOs and LFs are 15% lower than MCO on an average month. Their only saving grace is shorter stage length than MCO or AUS would be a goner as well. Likely to happen in the not too distant future as HA ramps up international flying.

There are numbers published on the MCO thread... It looks to me like AUS-HNL will be gone as soon as HA needs the a/c elsewhere else.

bb

SANFan wrote:

Rookinla wrote:

WN732 wrote:

AUS is doing well for them.

AUS is not doing well for HA. Load factors are in the 60s on average and as low as 40% some months. Yields are basically in line with MCOs and LFs are 15% lower than MCO on an average month. Their only saving grace is shorter stage length than MCO or AUS would be a goner as well. Likely to happen in the not too distant future as HA ramps up international flying.

There are numbers published on the MCO thread... It looks to me like AUS-HNL will be gone as soon as HA needs the a/c elsewhere else.

bb

MCO is cancelled as of 9/7

Was supposed to be on the flight 9/16 and 9/24 and got the cancellation email last night.

bchandl

Random question for Aussie - with Japan slowly building up, and nervous nature of the Japanese consumer with regards to travel, is there any chance we could see a bit of HA expansion else where? I've always been surprised that HA flew into BNE over MEL. Now that AU government is throwing money around to attract airlines back - would HA have the capacity to start MEL? I always felt there would be room for a bit more of a premium product over JQ, although QF has never shown any interest beyond SYD.

smi0006 wrote:

Random question for Aussie - with Japan slowly building up, and nervous nature of the Japanese consumer with regards to travel, is there any chance we could see a bit of HA expansion else where? I've always been surprised that HA flew into BNE over MEL. Now that AU government is throwing money around to attract airlines back - would HA have the capacity to start MEL? I always felt there would be room for a bit more of a premium product over JQ, although QF has never shown any interest beyond SYD.

Prob not until the 789's arrive. Until then the fleet is quite busy as the build-back of Japan continues into the fall.

jplatts wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Wneast wrote:

It’s been running for a year what’s interesting is the AUS hasn’t been cut yet.

AUS is doing well for them.

HA faces the possibility of AA adding AUS-HNL nonstop service if HA drops AUS-HNL nonstop service, whereas HA isn't currently facing the risk of another airline adding MCO-HNL nonstop service.

AUS-HNL is also approximately 1,000 miles shorter than that of MCO-HNL.

AUS-HNL isn't performing well for HA but I think if AA were to add AUS-HNL, it would be a twice-weekly thing at best. MCO-HNL in any other time but the point in the pandemic where it was launched, would be a joke. The market is just not there and likely never was.

I flew BOS-HNL-BOS in February and they were full flights. I know that’s not an indicator of success, and I heard anecdotally that BOS doesn’t perform really great, either. Good enough to hold onto? I’ll let others chime in who know the numbers better than I do.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

jplatts wrote:

WN732 wrote:

AUS is doing well for them.

HA faces the possibility of AA adding AUS-HNL nonstop service if HA drops AUS-HNL nonstop service, whereas HA isn't currently facing the risk of another airline adding MCO-HNL nonstop service.

AUS-HNL is also approximately 1,000 miles shorter than that of MCO-HNL.

AUS-HNL isn't performing well for HA but I think if AA were to add AUS-HNL, it would be a twice-weekly thing at best. MCO-HNL in any other time but the point in the pandemic where it was launched, would be a joke. The market is just not there and likely never was.

MCO was and now will be one of the largest unserved markets from HNL. So I wouldn’t say that it’s a joke. HA needed the frame for more profitable international flying so MCO and others will go. The pandemic did send HA looking for markets to serve during the pandemic. So there is a market. It’s just an ULH domestic route and HA can make more money flying shorter legs.

chrisnh wrote:

I flew BOS-HNL-BOS in February and they were full flights. I know that’s not an indicator of success, and I heard anecdotally that BOS doesn’t perform really great, either. Good enough to hold onto? I’ll let others chime in who know the numbers better than I do.

HA has continuously done well on BOS owing to the local demand (both business related and VFR for students in that area from Hawaii).

While I don’t have numbers, HA is very scrupulous with their planning and only fly to meet demand. Boston and JFK are very popular for those reasons and for being able to get folks quickly to HI. There’s not a lot of people who will pay for that, and accordingly the frequencies fluctuate to meet demand (ie not daily year round).

MCO, on the other hand was a pandemic route launch. In those days, with most Americans essentially shut out of countries due to Covid, Hawaii was a good alternative to most people who would have otherwise stayed home.

I’d be surprised if anyone thought MCO would have stayed on after pandemic.

WN732 wrote:

Wneast wrote:

SANFan wrote:

When the route was announced and begun a couple of years ago, some speculated that those odd adds -- wasn't AUS the other one? -- were simply someplace for HA to use the a/c that were available as covid shut down much of HA's int'l flying. Seems to me some of those int'l routes are returning (or soon will be) so back come the "extra" long range a/c.

bb

It’s been running for a year what’s interesting is the AUS hasn’t been cut yet.

AUS is doing well for them.

Interesting. I flew that route and it was half empty. Tourism to Hawaii is finally dropping. I may have just flown it on an off day.

https://beatofhawaii.com/decline-in-haw ... nt-page-2/

I can't see AA putting time or effort on Austin to Hawai'i, mostly because they need widebodies for other routes. And as we see Asia start to slowly perk back up in terms of service, those planes have to come from somewhere.

jplatts wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Wneast wrote:

It’s been running for a year what’s interesting is the AUS hasn’t been cut yet.

AUS is doing well for them.

HA faces the possibility of AA adding AUS-HNL nonstop service if HA drops AUS-HNL nonstop service, whereas HA isn't currently facing the risk of another airline adding MCO-HNL nonstop service.

AUS-HNL is also approximately 1,000 miles shorter than that of MCO-HNL.

I know you like to propose all sorts of random routes where there isn't existing service, but this one is a stretch even for you. AA doesn't even offer year-round ORD-Hawaii service. There is NO WAY they will offer AUS-HNL nonstop service. They are already short on widebodies and it's too easy for them to funnel AUS-Hawaii passengers through DFW or LAX.

UALFAson wrote:

jplatts wrote:

WN732 wrote:

AUS is doing well for them.

HA faces the possibility of AA adding AUS-HNL nonstop service if HA drops AUS-HNL nonstop service, whereas HA isn't currently facing the risk of another airline adding MCO-HNL nonstop service.

AUS-HNL is also approximately 1,000 miles shorter than that of MCO-HNL.

I know you like to propose all sorts of random routes where there isn't existing service, but this one is a stretch even for you. AA doesn't even offer year-round ORD-Hawaii service. There is NO WAY they will offer AUS-HNL nonstop service. They are already short on widebodies and it's too easy for them to funnel AUS-Hawaii passengers through DFW or LAX.

Except AUS is paying the airline to fly HNL.

american would do better on AUS HNL anyway

chrisnh wrote:

I flew BOS-HNL-BOS in February and they were full flights. I know that’s not an indicator of success, and I heard anecdotally that BOS doesn’t perform really great, either. Good enough to hold onto? I’ll let others chime in who know the numbers better than I do.

BOS does very well for HA, especially in the front cabin. they reduced frequency on the route in the heart of the pandemic (from daily down to 2-3x/wk), but that’s when the virus and hawaii state restrictions were at their highest. it was telling to me that they didn’t cut it completely.

HA charges a premium for the nonstop, whereas other airlines (especially AA) have discount fares constantly for BOS-hawaii tickets. i’m sure fuel prices are eating into the profitability for such a long A330 route, but that’s industry-wide i suppose.

don’t forget that HA and B6 have a decent partnership, so i’m sure there are some oddball BOS connections ticketed (which might involve backtracking) that can keep the plane full. i’ve seen people holding B6 BOS-EWR boarding passes upon arrival in BOS a couple times.

that being said, i generally avoid the flight bc HA is useless whenever it comes to IRROPS. it wouldn’t be bad if they would (for example) allow rebooking HNL-LAX/SFO on their own metal, and then the transcon on B6 metal. but anything rebooked onto B6 has always been a non-starter IME.

Mokuleke’s first SAAB 340 has been unveiled at HNL. Video story here, other local news outlets have coverage as well: https://www.kitv.com/video/news/mokulel ... 84bb2.html

HA ordering some A321XLR's is a possibility as the A321XLR's would have enough range to reach KIX/CTS/HND/NRT nonstop from Hawaii.

Some of the routes that HA currently operates on A330's such as HNL-LAS/LAX/PPG/PPT/PHX/SAN/SFO/SEA are within the range of A321neo aircraft.

Would there be any cost savings to operating HNL-KIX/CTS/HND/NRT nonstop service on A321XLR's instead of A330's or 787's if HA had A321XLR's in its fleet?

Would there be any cost savings if HA operated HNL-LAS/LAX/PPG/PPT/PHX/SAN/SFO/SEA on A321neo's instead of A330's or 787's?

Is HA likely to order additional A321neo's and A321XLR's to replace some of the A330's in its fleet?

hawaiian717 wrote:

Mokuleke’s first SAAB 340 has been unveiled at HNL. Video story here, other local news outlets have coverage as well: https://www.kitv.com/video/news/mokulel ... 84bb2.html

Curious. The news article said it fits only 28 seats. Why not the typical layout of 34?

FARmd90 wrote:

Curious. The news article said it fits only 28 seats. Why not the typical layout of 34?

With the increased passenger weight figures, aren’t any of the small props now limited to less than the number of passengers they were originally designed for?

I could also see it as an intentional decision by Mokulele to create some seats with more room to better accommodate disabled passengers, which was one of the stated reasons to get the Saabs, as they’re currently difficult to accommodate on the Caravans.

United will discontinue LAX-ITO on January 7.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/a ... 526264002/

And apparently AS has adjusted their advanced Summer 2023 skeds and cut back many of their 2nd frequencies to Hawaii; it looks like SAN/SFO/PDX-HNL have all lost their 2nd planned flights (that were scheduled to begin mid-May) in addition to PDX completely losing their (single) Kauai flight as well as their 2nd Maui trip for approximately the same time period.

I don't know if AS is really expecting fewer travelers to fly to the Islands or if other issues are the reason for these capacity reductions. (Of course, things could change before next summer.)

I'm curious to see what WN might have in mind from many of the same markets... especially SAN. They've pretty consistently offered double-daily service SAN-HNL since right after they started serving the route but that's the only route to the Islands they are now flying. I expect we'll see some adjustments from many cx as things play out.

bb

Would WN try a LAS-ITO nonstop a few times a week now that UA is leaving ITO?

The UA flight was a red-eye and Southwest does not do those, however it would be nice to see a direct flight to/from ITO

HA A330, N373HA, returned from SIN on Nov 2 with the new paint job and was the last HA A330 to wear the old livery.

hawaiian717 wrote:

FARmd90 wrote:

Curious. The news article said it fits only 28 seats. Why not the typical layout of 34?

With the increased passenger weight figures, aren’t any of the small props now limited to less than the number of passengers they were originally designed for?

I could also see it as an intentional decision by Mokulele to create some seats with more room to better accommodate disabled passengers, which was one of the stated reasons to get the Saabs, as they’re currently difficult to accommodate on the Caravans.

It's running as a public charter under FAR135, so limited to 30 seats.

What is up with Hawaiian's operations?
Does anyone have an inside scoop?
Most of their interisland flights are delayed for various reasons and it seems like we're back in the 80s and 90s again.

They're blaming it on the reconstruction of runway 8L in HNL, but that doesn't make sense. Almost 90% of my flights take off from 8R/reef runway anyway. They knew about this construction project so they should have adjusted their schedules accordingly. And based on my experiences it seems to be other issues as well (and not just lack of staff post-Covid).

My mom's recent flt from OGG had a 4 hr delay (flt eventually just cxld) because of a mechanical. My recent flt arrived at OGG early, but had to wait for over 1 hr for a gate because the jetways for HA's interisland gates 17, 19, and 21 were occupied although most of the other gates were empty. My flt to LAX turned around for a mechanical. Another flt to LGB arrived at the same time as their other delayed flt so it took over 1 1/2 hrs to get our luggage and it was a madhouse because there were no staff around to inform us what was going on. Their operations pre-Covid were starting to not be a well-oiled machine like almost always having to wait for someone to marshal the plane in and/or operate the jetway and post-Covid things have just gotten worse.

Hopefully HA stops making excuses and gets their house in order.

BeachBoy wrote:

They're blaming it on the reconstruction of runway 8L in HNL, but that doesn't make sense. Almost 90% of my flights take off from 8R/reef runway anyway. They knew about this construction project so they should have adjusted their schedules accordingly.

I’m not familiar with what’s going on over at HA but just want to point out that 8L being down is having a greater impact on arrivals than departures. Arrivals typically favor 8L but are split with 4R. Now everything is using 4R and not only does it cut down on arrival rate but also ties up traffic taxiing with intersection departures still taking place on 8L.

Please continue in the below 2023 edition

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