It Looks like B6 is moving POS-FLL back to December but after Christmas:
If they are serious then I am not sure why after Dec 25th, as it seems to me that POS-FLL for B6 is not profitable at all and they are kicking the can down the road.
https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/jetblue ... kmIpVdApjE

Brickell305 wrote:

maverick4002 wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

Some AA updates:

- MIA-HAV sees a 772 rotation on one of its six daily flights for the holiday season.
- MIA-POS goes to 3x daily for the holiday season.
- MIA-SKB goes to 2x daily for the holiday season.

I wonder if BW will up flights as well. That's alot of capacity. They are not back at FLL yet right?

BW is currently serving FLL 2x weekly from POS.

Usual Christmas demand with AA, and I bet that FLL will return to Daily by that time. The capacity is beyond MIA as lots of VFR are now in ATL, BWI-IAD area, DFW-AUS-IAH and North Carolina. A lot of people moved from NYC before the Pandemic and more so during the Pandemic, so a 1 stop connection to MIA is the better bet.

caribny wrote:

dominicl316 wrote:

caribny wrote:

BW should stick to what it knows best and that is its POS base. Trying to stitch the US/BVI with the OECS/BGI isnt their market.

I partially disagree with this statement, as BW still has the route rights inherited from BWIA under a treaty between the US and TnT that allows Trinidadian airlines to serve the USVI/PR with intermediate stops in the Caribbean. In fact, BW used to serve STX/SJU on a milk run from POS that stopped BGI, SLU, ANU once weekly. While in those days it was done with the MD-80, surely there is enough traffic to fill an ATR-72.

BW is not going to get into the weeds of flying people STT/STX/EIS to SKB/ANU/DOM/SLU. Is there still enough STX POS business to justify BW? LI hasnt been able to restart a sustainable STX flight.

BW can find enough business from filling the gaps left by LI in the southeast Caribbean as travel begins to recover. If JY cannot fill the gap (as I suspect that they won't) in its BGI hub then BW might jump in to supplement. This allows higher utilizations, more rotations, and easier availability of planes for its politically critical TAB route. This because these routes are closest to their POS base. Do not think that a milk run will be of interest at this point.

There is demand still from the Southern Caribbean to USVI/BVI and that is why they asked the USDOT to renew the route rights to start this year. BW has been in discussion with the Governments of those countries before the pandemic and continue to hold discussions with them on starting the route. The Caribbean expansion will get going once they have crews trained.
The issue right now is staffing, as everyone let go of staff and finding it difficult to retrain or bring them back due to long Sim time backlog and getting the necessary staffing levels.

Brickell305 wrote:

- MIA-POS goes to 3x daily for the holiday season.

Im surprised they didn't add JFK instead of a 3rd MIA flight

caribbean484 wrote:

It Looks like B6 is moving POS-FLL back to December but after Christmas:
If they are serious then I am not sure why after Dec 25th, as it seems to me that POS-FLL for B6 is not profitable at all and they are kicking the can down the road.
https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/jetblue ... kmIpVdApjE

It probably shouldn't be on the A320..A downgrade to the A220 should be tried. What is AA & BW doing differently than B6 that they can make FLL/MIA-POS work?

INFINITI329 wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

- MIA-POS goes to 3x daily for the holiday season.

Im surprised they didn't add JFK instead of a 3rd MIA flight

caribbean484 wrote:

It Looks like B6 is moving POS-FLL back to December but after Christmas:
If they are serious then I am not sure why after Dec 25th, as it seems to me that POS-FLL for B6 is not profitable at all and they are kicking the can down the road.
https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/jetblue ... kmIpVdApjE

It probably shouldn't be on the A320..A downgrade to the A220 should be tried. What is AA & BW doing differently than B6 that they can make FLL/MIA-POS work?

I’m not surprised at AA avoiding JFK-POS. It’s a hard route for a legacy US carrier to fly. Primarily VFR with little pure tourism or business against a local carrier. Re B6 @ FLL, it’s a much weaker hub than AA has at MIA and BW takes most of the O&D.

INFINITI329 wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

- MIA-POS goes to 3x daily for the holiday season.

Im surprised they didn't add JFK instead of a 3rd MIA flight

caribbean484 wrote:

It Looks like B6 is moving POS-FLL back to December but after Christmas:
If they are serious then I am not sure why after Dec 25th, as it seems to me that POS-FLL for B6 is not profitable at all and they are kicking the can down the road.
https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/jetblue ... kmIpVdApjE

It probably shouldn't be on the A320..A downgrade to the A220 should be tried. What is AA & BW doing differently than B6 that they can make FLL/MIA-POS work?

AA has tried JFK-POS lots of times without success, and its difficult to compete with BW on the route with 28w flights at peak time;, that would be a slaughter that AA would not want to fight for. It is the same story on the KIN-JFK and JFK-SDQ. This is why they are relying on the NEA to help fill the gap and reduce the losses in NYC with B6 partnership.

As for B6 and FLL simply AA has the mega-hub and loyalty travelers to connect beyond MIA and O&D, while BW has the Trinidad POS demand with the VFR that will sty loyal to them on this route. Simply put it, B6 has to fight with AA for the connecting traffic and BW for the O&D traffic of which it has seen some success at times or little of it most times.

Just a reminder of forum rules regarding use of non English posts and links: this is an international forum with members from all over the the world, and the means by which we've all chosen to communicate on this site is in English. As such, the forum rules are very clear on the use of non English content. Posts which are not in English must have complete English translations provided, and links which cannot be provided in English must have complete English translations provided. We do not believe it should be the responsibility of users to seek their own translations in order to participate, which is why it is incumbent on the user providing the non English content to provide a translation to ensure everyone may participate. Posts which do not follow our rules are subject to removal. These are longstanding rules, and we expect everyone to abide by them for the benefit of the community.

✈️ atcsundevil

Arajet received its 4th 737max8. Things are going fast

Slm will restart paramaribo amsterdam flights on july20th

embraer175e2 wrote:

Slm will restart paramaribo amsterdam flights on july20th

Any more Infos available, which airline/aircraft will operate the flight for SLM?!

INFINITI329 wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

- MIA-POS goes to 3x daily for the holiday season.

Im surprised they didn't add JFK instead of a 3rd MIA flight

caribbean484 wrote:

It Looks like B6 is moving POS-FLL back to December but after Christmas:
If they are serious then I am not sure why after Dec 25th, as it seems to me that POS-FLL for B6 is not profitable at all and they are kicking the can down the road.
https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/jetblue ... kmIpVdApjE

It probably shouldn't be on the A320..A downgrade to the A220 should be tried. What is AA & BW doing differently than B6 that they can make FLL/MIA-POS work?

I guess the fuel efficiency of the A220 would work, I wondered why they never tried the E190 but I guess the economics of the E190 don't work for such a route.

baje427 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

- MIA-POS goes to 3x daily for the holiday season.

Im surprised they didn't add JFK instead of a 3rd MIA flight

caribbean484 wrote:

It Looks like B6 is moving POS-FLL back to December but after Christmas:
If they are serious then I am not sure why after Dec 25th, as it seems to me that POS-FLL for B6 is not profitable at all and they are kicking the can down the road.
https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/jetblue ... kmIpVdApjE

It probably shouldn't be on the A320..A downgrade to the A220 should be tried. What is AA & BW doing differently than B6 that they can make FLL/MIA-POS work?

I guess the fuel efficiency of the A220 would work, I wondered why they never tried the E190 but I guess the economics of the E190 don't work for such a route.

I don't see why the E190 wouldn't work either. At least in the interim. I am curious what is the most amount of bags an E190 could take this distance.

debonair wrote:

embraer175e2 wrote:

Slm will restart paramaribo amsterdam flights on july20th

Any more Infos available, which airline/aircraft will operate the flight for SLM?!

Nothing yet in media.

[url][/url]

embraer175e2 wrote:

Slm will restart paramaribo amsterdam flights on july20th

Let's see how long this lasts this go around, this money could be spent elsewhere to be honest.

INFINITI329 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

Im surprised they didn't add JFK instead of a 3rd MIA flight



It probably shouldn't be on the A320..A downgrade to the A220 should be tried. What is AA & BW doing differently than B6 that they can make FLL/MIA-POS work?

I guess the fuel efficiency of the A220 would work, I wondered why they never tried the E190 but I guess the economics of the E190 don't work for such a route.

I don't see why the E190 wouldn't work either. At least in the interim. I am curious what is the most amount of bags an E190 could take this distance.

Maybe the market just isn’t there regardless of the size of the aircraft used. It could just be that FLL-BGI is a fairly thin market that’s hard to make work when you have a relatively small hub at FLL and you’re directly competing with a much larger hub in the same metro area.

For FLL-POS, they have the added disadvantage of competing against two carriers, each of which is simply better suited to serve So. Fla - POS.

People make a big deal about B6’s strength in the Caribbean but mostly gloss over the fact that said strength is primarily in the northeast (NYC, Boston) markets. From FLL, they are fairly weak to the Caribbean. They’ve started very few Eastern Caribbean markets to begin with (BGI, POS, SXM) and have dropped/“temporarily” suspended them all. In the Western Caribbean, they face headwinds as well e.g. PLS. They are primarily strong to only PAP and KIN which are much easier markets to make work from FLL because of the size of the respective diasporas. And even on those, I wouldn’t declaratively state that they are the strongest carrier from South Florida to those markets.

debonair wrote:

embraer175e2 wrote:

Slm will restart paramaribo amsterdam flights on july20th

Any more Infos available, which airline/aircraft will operate the flight for SLM?!

It will be airhub airlines from Malta.
Aircraft type a340-300.

caribbean484 wrote:

There is demand still from the Southern Caribbean to USVI/BVI and that is why they asked the USDOT to renew the route rights to start this year. BW has been in discussion with the Governments of those countries before the pandemic and continue to hold discussions with them on starting the route. The Caribbean expansion will get going once they have crews trained.
The issue right now is staffing, as everyone let go of staff and finding it difficult to retrain or bring them back due to long Sim time backlog and getting the necessary staffing levels.

Renewing route right negotiations isnt the same as actually planning to run these routes. They are merely given themselves the option of these routes, should they decide to do so.

If BW is skeptical about expanding its lift even within the southern Caribbean, and these are easy markets to service from POS, and with strong demand, I wonder about a SJU STX POS route. Given that CM already offers SJU POS via PTY few are going to use a POS SJU milk run, especially as I suspect this route is heavily business. Other gov'ts are also appealing desperately for airlift to replace LI and of course they will take the calls.

BW has in fact signaled to the rest of CARICOM (via the TT gov't) that they should look elsewhere for solutions to the current intra-regional lift problems, that is unless the routes will be profitable to BW. A partial recovery will see BW filling gaps that LI left in service to POS. The markets far north are small and fractured and I just do not see BW treading there at this time, given their challenges.

For all the reasons cited by many (financial constraints and crew and aircraft limitations) I suspect that BW is going to be very cautious in expanding outside of its core. Heck even JFK POS is colossally underserved at this point, relative to pre pandemic levels of service. In addition, over the past 10 years the population of the USVI has dropped by about 20%, due to slow post hurricane recovery. Much of this will include people with connections to islands to the south.

Has BW signaled intent to get more ATRs because unless they do I cannot see them properly serving their southern routes and simultaneously expanding further north, aside from the current stops on their POS KIN service.

caribny wrote:

Renewing route right negotiations isnt the same as actually planning to run these routes. They are merely given themselves the option of these routes, should they decide to do so.

If BW is skeptical about expanding its lift even within the southern Caribbean, and these are easy markets to service from POS, and with strong demand, I wonder about a SJU STX POS route. Given that CM already offers SJU POS via PTY few are going to use a POS SJU milk run, especially as I suspect this route is heavily business. Other gov'ts are also appealing desperately for airlift to replace LI and of course they will take the calls.

BW has in fact signaled to the rest of CARICOM (via the TT gov't) that they should look elsewhere for solutions to the current intra-regional lift problems, that is unless the routes will be profitable to BW. A partial recovery will see BW filling gaps that LI left in service to POS. The markets far north are small and fractured and I just do not see BW treading there at this time, given their challenges.

For all the reasons cited by many (financial constraints and crew and aircraft limitations) I suspect that BW is going to be very cautious in expanding outside of its core. Heck even JFK POS is colossally underserved at this point, relative to pre pandemic levels of service. In addition, over the past 10 years the population of the USVI has dropped by about 20%, due to slow post hurricane recovery. Much of this will include people with connections to islands to the south.

Has BW signaled intent to get more ATRs because unless they do I cannot see them properly serving their southern routes and simultaneously expanding further north, aside from the current stops on their POS KIN service.

Contrary to what you may believe, the team leading CAL are using actual data and are making some informed decisions regarding the ramp up of services.
I have no doubt that 12 months from now, the POS/JFK route will be back at or exceed the 2019 capacity.
However, in the aftermath of the pandemic, many in NYC and in T&T have had incomes slashed, jobs lost, are now focused on other priorities. There are still lingering COVID-19 travel related fears with much of the population. Many businessmen still have not returned to anywhere near their 2019 travel patterns.
But it will return.
Balancing the demand responsiveness and the ability to ramp up "supply" (managing the costs) with respect to available aircraft, pilots and FAs is key. Most major airlines are struggling. CAL's schedule and network integrity has been exceptionally good over the past few months. I give them credit for not being over ambitious with the ramp up- even though the POS-BGI schedule/ capacity is very frustrating.

RE: The ATR question, CAL still has the option/ intention to add 2 more, in due course.

I'd like T&T to maintain a flag carrier and hopefully eventually a profitable flag carrier. I support their conservatism at this time and have patience in seeing their plans unfold. The people at the helm are competent and have more available information and data points that we have access to that allow them to make decisions that may seem odd to us.

It seems many on this forum would complain about their lack of expansion or supply from one side of their mouth, while crying down the airline and predicting its demise in markets from the other side of their mouth.

Cheers,
AA1818

debonair wrote:

embraer175e2 wrote:

Slm will restart paramaribo amsterdam flights on july20th

Any more Infos available, which airline/aircraft will operate the flight for SLM?!

They changed last moment to bulgarian GullivAir.

A330 equipment.

This because airhub a340 is unavailable due to maintenance.

PhilInBRN wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

A388 wrote:

I don’t see why no one would use North America as opposed to Europe as a connecting point to the Caribbean from Asia. What’s the advantage of Europe over the US or Canada if you can do a single stop connection?

The big disadvantage of connecting at a US airport coming from Europe or going to Europe is the fact that one has to clear immigration (incl visa formalities) and re-check baggage even if one is just transferring to another international flight. Whereas at European connecting airports, no immigration checks need to be done. This makes connecting at US airports more of a hassle and inconvenience from a passenger perspective.

Valid point.

A388

aa1818 wrote:

The people at the helm are competent and have more available information and data points that we have access to that allow them to make decisions that may seem odd to us.

Cheers,
AA1818

I've been saying for a long time that airlines have their data on which they base their decisions but some just don't get that. I totally agree with you aa1818.

A388

aa1818 wrote:

caribny wrote:

Renewing route right negotiations isnt the same as actually planning to run these routes. They are merely given themselves the option of these routes, should they decide to do so.

If BW is skeptical about expanding its lift even within the southern Caribbean, and these are easy markets to service from POS, and with strong demand, I wonder about a SJU STX POS route. Given that CM already offers SJU POS via PTY few are going to use a POS SJU milk run, especially as I suspect this route is heavily business. Other gov'ts are also appealing desperately for airlift to replace LI and of course they will take the calls.

BW has in fact signaled to the rest of CARICOM (via the TT gov't) that they should look elsewhere for solutions to the current intra-regional lift problems, that is unless the routes will be profitable to BW. A partial recovery will see BW filling gaps that LI left in service to POS. The markets far north are small and fractured and I just do not see BW treading there at this time, given their challenges.

For all the reasons cited by many (financial constraints and crew and aircraft limitations) I suspect that BW is going to be very cautious in expanding outside of its core. Heck even JFK POS is colossally underserved at this point, relative to pre pandemic levels of service. In addition, over the past 10 years the population of the USVI has dropped by about 20%, due to slow post hurricane recovery. Much of this will include people with connections to islands to the south.

Has BW signaled intent to get more ATRs because unless they do I cannot see them properly serving their southern routes and simultaneously expanding further north, aside from the current stops on their POS KIN service.

Contrary to what you may believe, the team leading CAL are using actual data and are making some informed decisions regarding the ramp up of services.
I have no doubt that 12 months from now, the POS/JFK route will be back at or exceed the 2019 capacity.
However, in the aftermath of the pandemic, many in NYC and in T&T have had incomes slashed, jobs lost, are now focused on other priorities. There are still lingering COVID-19 travel related fears with much of the population. Many businessmen still have not returned to anywhere near their 2019 travel patterns.
But it will return.
Balancing the demand responsiveness and the ability to ramp up "supply" (managing the costs) with respect to available aircraft, pilots and FAs is key. Most major airlines are struggling. CAL's schedule and network integrity has been exceptionally good over the past few months. I give them credit for not being over ambitious with the ramp up- even though the POS-BGI schedule/ capacity is very frustrating.

RE: The ATR question, CAL still has the option/ intention to add 2 more, in due course.

I'd like T&T to maintain a flag carrier and hopefully eventually a profitable flag carrier. I support their conservatism at this time and have patience in seeing their plans unfold. The people at the helm are competent and have more available information and data points that we have access to that allow them to make decisions that may seem odd to us.

It seems many on this forum would complain about their lack of expansion or supply from one side of their mouth, while crying down the airline and predicting its demise in markets from the other side of their mouth.

Cheers,
AA1818

Well said!

aa1818 wrote:

Contrary to what you may believe, the team leading CAL are using actual data and are making some informed decisions regarding the ramp up of services.
I have no doubt that 12 months from now, the POS/JFK route will be back at or exceed the 2019 capacity.
However, in the aftermath of the pandemic, many in NYC and in T&T have had incomes slashed, jobs lost, are now focused on other priorities. There are still lingering COVID-19 travel related fears with much of the population. Many businessmen still have not returned to anywhere near their 2019 travel patterns.
But it will return.
Balancing the demand responsiveness and the ability to ramp up "supply" (managing the costs) with respect to available aircraft, pilots and FAs is key. Most major airlines are struggling. CAL's schedule and network integrity has been exceptionally good over the past few months. I give them credit for not being over ambitious with the ramp up- even though the POS-BGI schedule/ capacity is very frustrating.

RE: The ATR question, CAL still has the option/ intention to add 2 more, in due course.

I'd like T&T to maintain a flag carrier and hopefully eventually a profitable flag carrier. I support their conservatism at this time and have patience in seeing their plans unfold. The people at the helm are competent and have more available information and data points that we have access to that allow them to make decisions that may seem odd to us.

It seems many on this forum would complain about their lack of expansion or supply from one side of their mouth, while crying down the airline and predicting its demise in markets from the other side of their mouth.

Cheers,
AA1818

Who here is complaining about BWs lack of expansion? In the post that I made I stated financial and staffing constraints and a need to be cautious, and therefore not taking on an intense intra-regional route network to replace LIAT. I just do not think that a SJU flight is a priority for them now, and I do not see a rationale for BW to service the US/BVI either. The milk run idea was pre pandemic and I think its a whole new world now. If they are not servicing JFK at the level that they used to (though YYZ service is almost fully back) I do not see flights to SJU. You will agree that JFK POS is a good deal less speculative than SJU STX POS.

Having said that there is a clear difference between JFK KIN and JFK POS. Both are similar in their market composition. As weak as the economy in TT has been (and the current boom in natural gas must be offsetting this) tourist dependent Jamaica was hit even harder. I do not think that there are different socioeconomic dynamics between TT and Jamaicans in NY. Yet JFK KIN is only down slightly and yet JFK POS is down by more than 50%. Even though one would think that with TT only now fully open without restrictions one would expect pent up demand into POS. KIN has been fully open for a long while now.

So something is happening in the JFK POS space, which might well be why BW has sent a 2nd plane to Jamaica to handle KIN FLL/MCO rather than adding service on the POS JFK. Has the VFR POS market in NY reassessed its ties to TT? If so then I do not know that JFK POS service will be back to pre-pandemic levels. I also think that AA/B6 on the JFK GEO means that fewer GEO bound passengers are on the JFK POS nonstops. It may well be that larger numbers of GEO passengers then we thought were traveling via POS.

A388 wrote:

aa1818 wrote:

The people at the helm are competent and have more available information and data points that we have access to that allow them to make decisions that may seem odd to us.

Cheers,
AA1818

I've been saying for a long time that airlines have their data on which they base their decisions but some just don't get that. I totally agree with you aa1818.

A388

And airlines also do sometimes make mistakes too. Look at how excessive airfares by BW on the JFK GEO led to not one but two US carriers on the route when these carriers sensed an opportunity. Both receiving incentives from the Guyana gov't to force competition. BWs drive to exploit their monopoly situation created an environment where the route is now intensely competitive. Also shabby treatment by GEO bound passengers originating in YYZ especially when they had to intransit thru POS. In the long run this was short sighted. BW used to openly state that JFK GEO was one of their profitable routes, along with POS KIN, POS MIA and POS YYZ. Notably not POS JFK, despite the larger volume of travelers.

Then we have mistakes made by Caribbean carriers no longer with us. JM, Insel, Red Jet, etc.

Air Canada Rouge will commence seasonal Montreal (YUL)-Antigua (ANU) effective 23rd December, 2022 - 1x weekly (Fridays). The route is also served by Sunwing.

Route previously flown by AC mainline 2011-2016.

https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-mon ... nter-2022/

Air Canada Rouge resumes year-round Toronto-Antigua effective 1st October, 2022 1x weekly (Saturdays). Service will ramp up to 2x weekly effective 30th October, 2022 (Tuesday, Saturdays) and then 4x weekly effective 19th December, 2022 through April, 2023 (Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays).

YYZ-ANU Route is also served by Westjet and Sungwing.

caribny wrote:

Who here is complaining about BWs lack of expansion? In the post that I made I stated financial and staffing constraints and a need to be cautious, and therefore not taking on an intense intra-regional route network to replace LIAT. I just do not think that a SJU flight is a priority for them now, and I do not see a rationale for BW to service the US/BVI either. The milk run idea was pre pandemic and I think its a whole new world now. If they are not servicing JFK at the level that they used to (though YYZ service is almost fully back) I do not see flights to SJU. You will agree that JFK POS is a good deal less speculative than SJU STX POS.

Here's the problem, it may be less speculative in your opinion but consider that current yields on JFK-POS may not be what they were pre-pandemic and so in the interim there may be data available that suggests that a milk run from the northern Caribbean may be lucrative even at a couple times per week. Republic Bank now has banks in St. Maarten and the BVI, First Citizens is keenly looking at northern Caribbean opportunities by their own admission, ANSA McAL has manufacturing and distribution in the norther Caribbean including Carib Beer...there are many factors which may be driving CAL's decisions. I'm not saying that I have any data to support it, but you continue to write authoritatively and dogmatically when in fact you are merely speculating and spewing opinions which have no basis in data or fact.

caribny wrote:

Having said that there is a clear difference between JFK KIN and JFK POS. Both are similar in their market composition. As weak as the economy in TT has been (and the current boom in natural gas must be offsetting this) tourist dependent Jamaica was hit even harder. I do not think that there are different socioeconomic dynamics between TT and Jamaicans in NY. Yet JFK KIN is only down slightly and yet JFK POS is down by more than 50%. Even though one would think that with TT only now fully open without restrictions one would expect pent up demand into POS. KIN has been fully open for a long while now.

And you have to look at data- perhaps KIN is driven by North American originating pax. If so then that explains why the supply has rebounded since...tourism. POS may not have the North American originating bias, and local demand may not have returned as quickly. As KIN is so heavily dependent on tourism, the value proposition or visiting Jamaica, may make more financial sense than visiting T&T. Leisure travel has rebounded. Business travel has not. Perhaps POS is more skewed to business travel. There are a number of explanations for the lack of supply on the POS-JFK route. Give it time. CAL are not shying away from profit or choosing to leave money on the table. They are very much profit driven- especially these days.

caribny wrote:

I also think that AA/B6 on the JFK GEO means that fewer GEO bound passengers are on the JFK POS nonstops. It may well be that larger numbers of GEO passengers then we thought were traveling via POS.

That may well be a plausible partial explanation, but I doubt it tells the whole story.

Cheers,
AA1818

Route expansion delayed due to crew restraints.Only now after summer travel has started have they started hiring back pilots laid off last year.

caribny wrote:

And airlines also do sometimes make mistakes too. Look at how excessive airfares by BW on the JFK GEO led to not one but two US carriers on the route when these carriers sensed an opportunity. Both receiving incentives from the Guyana gov't to force competition. BWs drive to exploit their monopoly situation created an environment where the route is now intensely competitive. Also shabby treatment by GEO bound passengers originating in YYZ especially when they had to intransit thru POS. In the long run this was short sighted. BW used to openly state that JFK GEO was one of their profitable routes, along with POS KIN, POS MIA and POS YYZ. Notably not POS JFK, despite the larger volume of travelers.

Then we have mistakes made by Caribbean carriers no longer with us. JM, Insel, Red Jet, etc.

Your talking different things. You're talking about bad management in other areas like using the wrong aircraft types and expanding too quickly but airlines do have better market data they base their decisions on. So yes, airlines do know the markets they serve better. How is the JFK GEO route intensely competitive now? Only AA serves the route now too since not so long ago? If no airline serves a route but you and the demand is high, of course you ask high fares and don't focus too much on service. Any airline will do that!

A388

A388 wrote:

caribny wrote:

And airlines also do sometimes make mistakes too. Look at how excessive airfares by BW on the JFK GEO led to not one but two US carriers on the route when these carriers sensed an opportunity. Both receiving incentives from the Guyana gov't to force competition. BWs drive to exploit their monopoly situation created an environment where the route is now intensely competitive. Also shabby treatment by GEO bound passengers originating in YYZ especially when they had to intransit thru POS. In the long run this was short sighted. BW used to openly state that JFK GEO was one of their profitable routes, along with POS KIN, POS MIA and POS YYZ. Notably not POS JFK, despite the larger volume of travelers.

Then we have mistakes made by Caribbean carriers no longer with us. JM, Insel, Red Jet, etc.

Your talking different things. You're talking about bad management in other areas like using the wrong aircraft types and expanding too quickly but airlines do have better market data they base their decisions on. So yes, airlines do know the markets they serve better. How is the JFK GEO route intensely competitive now? Only AA serves the route now too since not so long ago? If no airline serves a route but you and the demand is high, of course you ask high fares and don't focus too much on service. Any airline will do that!

A388

Both AA and B6 started JFK-GEO within the last 3 years so it went from one airline to three in a short space of time.

Arajet has requested to operate flights to Ecuador

Brickell305 wrote:

Both AA and B6 started JFK-GEO within the last 3 years so it went from one airline to three in a short space of time.

Okay, I forgot about B6 but still that isn't intense competition. What do you think AA or B6 would have done if they were the only airline serving that route? Yes, excessively high fares too. What BW did, isn't anything weird or stupid. They were the only ones on the route so logically they would go for maximum profits as any other airline would have done. Now they have competition but at least they can offer a similarly decent product with the introduction of their MAX's which I think are better than the AA MAX's (more legroom if I remember correctly).

A388

A388 wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

Both AA and B6 started JFK-GEO within the last 3 years so it went from one airline to three in a short space of time.

Okay, I forgot about B6 but still that isn't intense competition. What do you think AA or B6 would have done if they were the only airline serving that route? Yes, excessively high fares too. What BW did, isn't anything weird or stupid. They were the only ones on the route so logically they would go for maximum profits as any other airline would have done. Now they have competition but at least they can offer a similarly decent product with the introduction of their MAX's which I think are better than the AA MAX's (more legroom if I remember correctly).

A388

I agree that any airline would have done the same. I disagree that three airlines serving NYC-GEO isn’t fierce competition. NYC-GEO isn’t that big of a market as compared to other Caribbean VFR markets. Unlike other Caribbean markets, it’s also not touristy so unlikely to stimulate much extra demand by adding capacity. So you have a medium sized, at best, market which isn’t going to grow significantly in the short term and now three airlines fighting over it.

Brickell305 wrote:

I agree that any airline would have done the same. I disagree that three airlines serving NYC-GEO isn’t fierce competition. NYC-GEO isn’t that big of a market as compared to other Caribbean VFR markets. Unlike other Caribbean markets, it’s also not touristy so unlikely to stimulate much extra demand by adding capacity. So you have a medium sized, at best, market which isn’t going to grow significantly in the short term and now three airlines fighting over it.

Fair points if it indeed doesn't stimulate extra demand.

A388

The profit hunter e195e2 visited Trinidad.

https://www.facebook.com/38583148176655 ... zGCBvEGfl/

embraer175e2 wrote:

The profit hunter e195e2 visited Trinidad.

https://www.facebook.com/38583148176655 ... zGCBvEGfl/

Fuel stop or a presentation for BW ?

INFINITI329 wrote:

embraer175e2 wrote:

The profit hunter e195e2 visited Trinidad.

https://www.facebook.com/38583148176655 ... zGCBvEGfl/

Fuel stop or a presentation for BW ?

Probably fuel with maybe BW taking a look as it was there, although I doubt they would add a 3rd type to their fleet.

baje427 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

embraer175e2 wrote:

The profit hunter e195e2 visited Trinidad.

https://www.facebook.com/38583148176655 ... zGCBvEGfl/

Fuel stop or a presentation for BW ?

Probably fuel with maybe BW taking a look as it was there, although I doubt they would add a 3rd type to their fleet.

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

caribbean484 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

Fuel stop or a presentation for BW ?

Probably fuel with maybe BW taking a look as it was there, although I doubt they would add a 3rd type to their fleet.

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

Thanks for the information, I can't see how the A220 would replace the ATR especially with the airbridge.

baje427 wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

Probably fuel with maybe BW taking a look as it was there, although I doubt they would add a 3rd type to their fleet.

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

Thanks for the information, I can't see how the A220 would replace the ATR especially with the airbridge.

What I meant was that if you see the A220 come into POS for demonstrations, then it will be an official competition between the EJet2 and the A220 to replace the ATR fleet. I don't see BW operating with 3 fleet types as that will be a costly endeavor where they will have no scale.
The issue will always be the POS-TAB route as Turboprops are more suited for this type of operation and its the reason they went against Q400/Cseries combo that Bombardier offered because the cost was great.
BW has a mandate to increase regional connectivity and in that department the ATR is range limited and the 78M is too large for some operations so it is a real conundrum of what the fleet mix is going to look like.

caribbean484 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

Thanks for the information, I can't see how the A220 would replace the ATR especially with the airbridge.

What I meant was that if you see the A220 come into POS for demonstrations, then it will be an official competition between the EJet2 and the A220 to replace the ATR fleet. I don't see BW operating with 3 fleet types as that will be a costly endeavor where they will have no scale.
The issue will always be the POS-TAB route as Turboprops are more suited for this type of operation and its the reason they went against Q400/Cseries combo that Bombardier offered because the cost was great.
BW has a mandate to increase regional connectivity and in that department the ATR is range limited and the 78M is too large for some operations so it is a real conundrum of what the fleet mix is going to look like.

The ATR's range allows it to comfortably cover up to SJU and if they base some in Jamaica that pretty much would allow them to cover most of the region. The 220/E195 I think would work better on some thin North American runs and perhaps allowing them to go daily on the BW415 milk run however, they would have the data but replacing the ATR with the E195 or 220 isn't sounding logical to me.

baje427 wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

Thanks for the information, I can't see how the A220 would replace the ATR especially with the airbridge.

What I meant was that if you see the A220 come into POS for demonstrations, then it will be an official competition between the EJet2 and the A220 to replace the ATR fleet. I don't see BW operating with 3 fleet types as that will be a costly endeavor where they will have no scale.
The issue will always be the POS-TAB route as Turboprops are more suited for this type of operation and its the reason they went against Q400/Cseries combo that Bombardier offered because the cost was great.
BW has a mandate to increase regional connectivity and in that department the ATR is range limited and the 78M is too large for some operations so it is a real conundrum of what the fleet mix is going to look like.

The ATR's range allows it to comfortably cover up to SJU and if they base some in Jamaica that pretty much would allow them to cover most of the region. The 220/E195 I think would work better on some thin North American runs and perhaps allowing them to go daily on the BW415 milk run however, they would have the data but replacing the ATR with the E195 or 220 isn't sounding logical to me.

The A220 or the E195 as a compliment to the fleet makes sense to me. Either as a replacement for the ATR sounds insane to me. It’s not just POS-TAB (although that is the most important route), it’s also POS-GND, SLU, OGL, DOM.

That money would be better spent getting some 737 ng freighters.

caribbean484 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

Fuel stop or a presentation for BW ?

Probably fuel with maybe BW taking a look as it was there, although I doubt they would add a 3rd type to their fleet.

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

Economics aside I think the 717 is the perfect fit for BW. ( I mentioned this up thread several months ago). The 717 range would allow BW to fly routes in the Caribbean, Central America, South America & Florida. It also will be able to handle the airbridge rather well. I hope BW at least talks to Boeing to run the numbers. I don't think the ATR would be replaced by one of these three aircraft. As others have stated the gap is just too large between the ATR and 7M8.

INFINITI329 wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

Probably fuel with maybe BW taking a look as it was there, although I doubt they would add a 3rd type to their fleet.

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

Economics aside I think the 717 is the perfect fit for BW. ( I mentioned this up thread several months ago). The 717 range would allow BW to fly routes in the Caribbean, Central America, South America & Florida. It also will be able to handle the airbridge rather well. I hope BW at least talks to Boeing to run the numbers. I don't think the ATR would be replaced by one of these three aircraft. As others have stated the gap is just too large between the ATR and 7M8.

The 717 is long in the tooth, the newest are heading towards two decades old. The 717 will follow it's older siblings into retirement in in another couple years.

Just an FYI Air Canada will discontinue POS from the end of September 2022 and as of right now it will resume in May 2023. This is really unfortunate as WS has also pulled out but apparently Swoop may start YYZ POS and GEO. Anyone have any information on this?

BWIA330 wrote:

Just an FYI Air Canada will discontinue POS from the end of September 2022 and as of right now it will resume in May 2023. This is really unfortunate as WS has also pulled out but apparently Swoop may start YYZ POS and GEO. Anyone have any information on this?

No info on Swoop however, 3 airlines operating POS-YYZ was always going to be difficult with 1 Canadian airline would have leaved. Now we have both Canadian airlines leaving says that it's really challenging to compete with BW.
Swoop won't make any difference to the eventual outcome.

baje427 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

Economics aside I think the 717 is the perfect fit for BW. ( I mentioned this up thread several months ago). The 717 range would allow BW to fly routes in the Caribbean, Central America, South America & Florida. It also will be able to handle the airbridge rather well. I hope BW at least talks to Boeing to run the numbers. I don't think the ATR would be replaced by one of these three aircraft. As others have stated the gap is just too large between the ATR and 7M8.

The 717 is long in the tooth, the newest are heading towards two decades old. The 717 will follow it's older siblings into retirement in in another couple years.

Agreed with Baje427, the 717 is old now and mostly retired from airlines. There is no way BW would have bought into it. And to be frank the Ejet or the Cseries would have been better economically.

caribbean484 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

The Profit Hunter isn't in POS for a fuel stop, she has more than enough fuel to make it to BSB from NAS on the payload. She is there as part of a Customer demonstration on request of the management of BW to evaluate the a/c to the airline's strategy plan. Whether the airline actually buys it is another matter, but we discussed this earlier in the thread that there is a large gap between the ATR 68 seats and the 78M 160 seat. Now if you also see the A220 in POS soon then we will know they are going to replacing the ATR fleet but that's a big IF.
There is also a gap in tackling thin routes with more frequency where the MAX is too large and the ATR is too small and range limited.

Thanks for the information, I can't see how the A220 would replace the ATR especially with the airbridge.

What I meant was that if you see the A220 come into POS for demonstrations, then it will be an official competition between the EJet2 and the A220 to replace the ATR fleet. I don't see BW operating with 3 fleet types as that will be a costly endeavor where they will have no scale.
The issue will always be the POS-TAB route as Turboprops are more suited for this type of operation and its the reason they went against Q400/Cseries combo that Bombardier offered because the cost was great.
BW has a mandate to increase regional connectivity and in that department the ATR is range limited and the 78M is too large for some operations so it is a real conundrum of what the fleet mix is going to look like.

It was indeed in TT for demonstration to caribbean airlines executives:

https://www.facebook.com/38583148176655 ... zqTTPxKEl/

INFINITI329 wrote:

baje427 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

Im surprised they didn't add JFK instead of a 3rd MIA flight



It probably shouldn't be on the A320..A downgrade to the A220 should be tried. What is AA & BW doing differently than B6 that they can make FLL/MIA-POS work?

I guess the fuel efficiency of the A220 would work, I wondered why they never tried the E190 but I guess the economics of the E190 don't work for such a route.

I don't see why the E190 wouldn't work either. At least in the interim. I am curious what is the most amount of bags an E190 could take this distance.

Copa change from e190 to b737 on some routes due to bag and cargo limitations. So you ve got a point.

I don't think it's been reported here but the Antigua and Barbuda government has signed a memorandum agreement with an unidentified group of wealthy African investors for the establishment of a new airline, Antigua Airways, to operate direct flights from West Africa to Antigua by the end of this year. A commercial agreement would be sought with cash-strapped LIAT (in administration since 2020), to feed connections to destinations north and south of Antigua and Barbuda. Prime Minster Gaston Browne has said that he is confident that this will happen.

Does anyone know where the BW 737-800’s are going? There is one currently routing POS-JFK-KEF.

In this still fragile post-covid recovery/ emergence it may be crazy for an airline like Caribbean Airlines to consider adding a net fleet type...that said, if we were in normal circumstances perhaps it wouldn't be far fetched.

Let's assume the airline can operate its 737 and ATR fleets "efficiently" as in the two fleets are 'large' enough for them to operate reasonably effectively with respect to utilization, spares, maintenance, crew etc.

If they could 'scale up' a new fleet type to a similar efficient number, then perhaps it is not so far fetched.

What routes could the E2 Jet be efficiently used on and how many could CAL scale up to if it were to be used to launch new routes/

Cheers,
AA1818

aa1818 wrote:

In this still fragile post-covid recovery/ emergence it may be crazy for an airline like Caribbean Airlines to consider adding a net fleet type...that said, if we were in normal circumstances perhaps it wouldn't be far fetched.

Let's assume the airline can operate its 737 and ATR fleets "efficiently" as in the two fleets are 'large' enough for them to operate reasonably effectively with respect to utilization, spares, maintenance, crew etc.

If they could 'scale up' a new fleet type to a similar efficient number, then perhaps it is not so far fetched.

What routes could the E2 Jet be efficiently used on and how many could CAL scale up to if it were to be used to launch new routes/

Cheers,
AA1818

I think an A220 or E-jet would do well based in KIN. They could add CUR, BZE, HAV, SDQ, TPA, ATL and boost frequency on NAS, GCM, MCO. From POS, I could see them boosting frequency on PBM, HAV, MCO and possibly adding PTY.