Lufthansa Group News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Blotto · Fri May 06, 2022 6:28 am

zkojq wrote:
I wonder if this is the push that LH needs to upgrade some A350 orders to the -1000.

Given the ODDs for C and F seats, no. Maybe there are some white tails available. But I don't see the existing order being changed.

Blotto · Fri May 06, 2022 6:30 am

Blerg wrote:
Do you mind expanding on this? Did they say business demand is recovering?

https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... charts.pdf
Page 6

factsonly · Fri May 06, 2022 7:02 am

The performance of each individual LH Group airline is of interest, as both OS and Eurowings actually performed worse in Q1 2022, than in Q1 2021.
While SWISS outperformed the other LH Group carriers in Q1 2022 by a large margin.

Adjusted EBIT (in EUR m) for Q1 2022 / and for Q1 2021 / Change in %

- Lufthansa -715m / -831m / +14.0%
- SWISS -62m / -211m / +70.6%
- Austrian Airlines -109m / -104m / -4.8%
- Brussels Airlines -62m / -70m / +11.4%
- Eurowings -163m / -143m / -14.0%

LH Group Airlines -1,114m / -1,359m / +18.0%

page 25
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... charts.pdf

FluidFlow · Fri May 06, 2022 8:11 am

LX should return to profitability relatively quick. Half of Q1 was still during the height of Omricon and they only lost 62m. They also repaid a lot of depth (Covid loans). On top of that the fleet is more fuel efficient now than it was 3 years ago. 2022 will at least be balanced if not ending with a positive result.

Only thing that could throw a spanner is the human ressource situation.

Blerg · Fri May 06, 2022 8:59 am

factsonly wrote:
The performance of each individual LH Group airline is of interest, as both OS and Eurowings actually performed worse in Q1 2022, than in Q1 2021.
While SWISS outperformed the other LH Group carriers in Q1 2022 by a large margin.

Adjusted EBIT (in EUR m) for Q1 2022 / and for Q1 2021 / Change in %

- Lufthansa -715m / -831m / +14.0%
- SWISS -62m / -211m / +70.6%
- Austrian Airlines -109m / -104m / -4.8%
- Brussels Airlines -62m / -70m / +11.4%
- Eurowings -163m / -143m / -14.0%

LH Group Airlines -1,114m / -1,359m / +18.0%

page 25
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... charts.pdf

If I am not wrong, both EW and OS have grown quite a bit in Q1 this year. It could be that capacity grew faster than the loads. That said, EW's performance is just abysmal.

PhilipBass · Fri May 06, 2022 9:06 am

What is Eurowings doing with wet lease partners: https://www.eurowings.com/en/informatio ... fleet.html
seems like a strange approach to LCC.

PhilipBass · Fri May 06, 2022 9:35 am

Like those longing for a few more A340 flights it may be nice for the Enthusiast but airlines are trying to get rid of these planes from their fleets for a reason.
Also, how do you keep a goup of A380 pilots "current" if the plane is barely ever flying.

FluidFlow · Fri May 06, 2022 10:54 am

PhilipBass wrote:
Like those longing for a few more A340 flights it may be nice for the Enthusiast but airlines are trying to get rid of these planes from their fleets for a reason.
Also, how do you keep a goup of A380 pilots "current" if the plane is barely ever flying.

The A340 is not as uneconomical as people here make it out to be. Percentually LX (including WK) has the biggest a340 fleet and they have the best result among the group. I know they will be replaced at one point but for the moment they can be operated economical.

conaly · Sat May 07, 2022 2:50 pm

Aero.de is reporting Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus about some A350-900, that can't be delivered to Aeroflot anymore, as well as some A350-1000, that Qatar Airways didn't take up.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

The A350-1000 could help them to bridge the gap in their fleet, until the 777-9 arrives. However, as the T7 was supposed to be stationed in Frankfurt, they will need to either transfer some pilots again from Munich, or train some FRA-based crews on the A350 (which shouldn't be much of a problem, as there are some Cross Crew Qualification programs from A330/A340 or A380 to A350).

Blerg · Sat May 07, 2022 4:21 pm

Anyone know how many A350s SU was supposed to take? Some already went to TK, I believe 4.

Scoreboard · Sat May 07, 2022 4:42 pm

Blerg wrote:
Anyone know how many A350s SU was supposed to take? Some already went to TK, I believe 4.

Aeroflot had 20 on order and have taken delivery of 7, all now on the RA- register.
Three more have flown - two that were stored at Chateauroux flew back to Toulouse this week while the third is still at Chateauroux.
Another has flown, while there are two more allocations known.
I'm not sure any went to Turkish, unless it was just shuffling of allocations.
So potentially 4 ready for LH and a couple more down the road - not sure how much sanctions will impact the ability of Airbus to move the non-delivered frames on to somebody else.

Blerg · Sat May 07, 2022 5:16 pm

Scoreboard wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Anyone know how many A350s SU was supposed to take? Some already went to TK, I believe 4.

Aeroflot had 20 on order and have taken delivery of 7, all now on the RA- register.
Three more have flown - two that were stored at Chateauroux flew back to Toulouse this week while the third is still at Chateauroux.
Another has flown, while there are two more allocations known.
I'm not sure any went to Turkish, unless it was just shuffling of allocations.
So potentially 4 ready for LH and a couple more down the road - not sure how much sanctions will impact the ability of Airbus to move the non-delivered frames on to somebody else.

I think it was mentioned in the Turkish Aviation Thread. Maybe both LH and TK are negotiating with Airbus over these SU frames.

Anyone know on which routes LH has such urgent need for extra capacity?

a2b7 · Sat May 07, 2022 5:56 pm

Blerg wrote:
Scoreboard wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Anyone know how many A350s SU was supposed to take? Some already went to TK, I believe 4.

Aeroflot had 20 on order and have taken delivery of 7, all now on the RA- register.
Three more have flown - two that were stored at Chateauroux flew back to Toulouse this week while the third is still at Chateauroux.
Another has flown, while there are two more allocations known.
I'm not sure any went to Turkish, unless it was just shuffling of allocations.
So potentially 4 ready for LH and a couple more down the road - not sure how much sanctions will impact the ability of Airbus to move the non-delivered frames on to somebody else.

I think it was mentioned in the Turkish Aviation Thread. Maybe both LH and TK are negotiating with Airbus over these SU frames.

Anyone know on which routes LH has such urgent need for extra capacity?

The following link was posted in the Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2022 ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468427&start=200#p23293147 ):
https://www.airporthaber.com/thy-haberl ... liyor.html (in Turkish only)
Let's see who will take which frames. abcdlist.nl shows 7 more MSNs allocated to Aeroflot (highest is MSN 558) in addition to the 4 that have already flown, but I am not sure if all of them already were in production, so it could be that some will not be built.

MrHMSH · Sun May 08, 2022 3:18 am

conaly wrote:
Aero.de is reporting Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus about some A350-900, that can't be delivered to Aeroflot anymore, as well as some A350-1000, that Qatar Airways didn't take up.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

The A350-1000 could help them to bridge the gap in their fleet, until the 777-9 arrives. However, as the T7 was supposed to be stationed in Frankfurt, they will need to either transfer some pilots again from Munich, or train some FRA-based crews on the A350 (which shouldn't be much of a problem, as there are some Cross Crew Qualification programs from A330/A340 or A380 to A350).

That could be a damaging development for the 777X. I do think LH needs and should take them, but we weren't expecting any A35Ks at LH, so if they do take these that does lessen the need for 777Xs. It might not be a huge order like EK's, but it would be a high-profile disappointment. Seems like LH can't get enough A350s!

zkojq · Sun May 08, 2022 5:13 am

Looks like D-AIVD has been painted in a special livery:

"#CleanTechFlyer"

conaly wrote:
Aero.de is reporting Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus about some A350-900, that can't be delivered to Aeroflot anymore, as well as some A350-1000, that Qatar Airways didn't take up.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

Fantastic news! Just a shame we won't get to see any A35Ks in the old livery.

jbs2886 · Sun May 08, 2022 6:11 am

MrHMSH wrote:
conaly wrote:
Aero.de is reporting Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus about some A350-900, that can't be delivered to Aeroflot anymore, as well as some A350-1000, that Qatar Airways didn't take up.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

The A350-1000 could help them to bridge the gap in their fleet, until the 777-9 arrives. However, as the T7 was supposed to be stationed in Frankfurt, they will need to either transfer some pilots again from Munich, or train some FRA-based crews on the A350 (which shouldn't be much of a problem, as there are some Cross Crew Qualification programs from A330/A340 or A380 to A350).

That could be a damaging development for the 777X. I do think LH needs and should take them, but we weren't expecting any A35Ks at LH, so if they do take these that does lessen the need for 777Xs. It might not be a huge order like EK's, but it would be a high-profile disappointment. Seems like LH can't get enough A350s!

Why? Most of the largest A35K operators also have the 777X on order.

HKAusFlyer · Sun May 08, 2022 6:24 am

MrHMSH wrote:
conaly wrote:
Aero.de is reporting Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus about some A350-900, that can't be delivered to Aeroflot anymore, as well as some A350-1000, that Qatar Airways didn't take up.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

The A350-1000 could help them to bridge the gap in their fleet, until the 777-9 arrives. However, as the T7 was supposed to be stationed in Frankfurt, they will need to either transfer some pilots again from Munich, or train some FRA-based crews on the A350 (which shouldn't be much of a problem, as there are some Cross Crew Qualification programs from A330/A340 or A380 to A350).

That could be a damaging development for the 777X. I do think LH needs and should take them, but we weren't expecting any A35Ks at LH, so if they do take these that does lessen the need for 777Xs. It might not be a huge order like EK's, but it would be a high-profile disappointment. Seems like LH can't get enough A350s!

LH still has 8 Boeing 747-400s and 19x 747-8I passenger aircraft in service, while also having 14 A380s in storage. That adds up to 41 large capacity aircraft.

I imagine even after taking 22 of Qatar's on-order (but will become undelivered) A350-1000s, that still leaves 19 examples in the gap to be filled. Looks to me that the remaining 20 Boeing 777-9Xs will remain in the LH fleet plan.

In fact, 22 A350-1000s and 20 777-9Xs seem a perfect combo for replacing LH's 4-engine portfolio in one go, by the second half of the 2020s when the 777X starts arriving in 2025 or later. The 22 A35K can allay LH's short to medium-term capacity needs.

MrHMSH · Sun May 08, 2022 6:46 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Why? Most of the largest A35K operators also have the 777X on order.

HKAusFlyer wrote:

LH still has 8 Boeing 747-400s and 19x 747-8I passenger aircraft in service, while also having 14 A380s in storage. That adds up to 41 large capacity aircraft.

I imagine even after taking 22 of Qatar's on-order (but will become undelivered) A350-1000s, that still leaves 19 examples in the gap to be filled. Looks to me that the remaining 20 Boeing 777-9Xs will remain in the LH fleet plan.

In fact, 22 A350-1000s and 20 777-9Xs seem a perfect combo for replacing LH's 4-engine portfolio in one go, by the second half of the 2020s when the 777X starts arriving in 2025 or later. The 22 A35K can allay LH's short to medium-term capacity needs.

The A380s are effectively written off, their capacity is not needed badly enough that they've been reactivated, and all indications are that they are gone for good, in which case the A35K would at least get close to the replacement numbers. Regardless, it likely means that the 777X order will not expand much, if at all.

JLGordon · Sun May 08, 2022 7:06 am

They just did not find a paint slot for D-AIVD, so they left it in white and just put the blue crane on. I like it.

Duke91 · Sun May 08, 2022 7:16 am

HKAusFlyer wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
conaly wrote:
Aero.de is reporting Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus about some A350-900, that can't be delivered to Aeroflot anymore, as well as some A350-1000, that Qatar Airways didn't take up.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

The A350-1000 could help them to bridge the gap in their fleet, until the 777-9 arrives. However, as the T7 was supposed to be stationed in Frankfurt, they will need to either transfer some pilots again from Munich, or train some FRA-based crews on the A350 (which shouldn't be much of a problem, as there are some Cross Crew Qualification programs from A330/A340 or A380 to A350).

That could be a damaging development for the 777X. I do think LH needs and should take them, but we weren't expecting any A35Ks at LH, so if they do take these that does lessen the need for 777Xs. It might not be a huge order like EK's, but it would be a high-profile disappointment. Seems like LH can't get enough A350s!

LH still has 8 Boeing 747-400s and 19x 747-8I passenger aircraft in service, while also having 14 A380s in storage. That adds up to 41 large capacity aircraft.

I imagine even after taking 22 of Qatar's on-order (but will become undelivered) A350-1000s, that still leaves 19 examples in the gap to be filled. Looks to me that the remaining 20 Boeing 777-9Xs will remain in the LH fleet plan.

In fact, 22 A350-1000s and 20 777-9Xs seem a perfect combo for replacing LH's 4-engine portfolio in one go, by the second half of the 2020s when the 777X starts arriving in 2025 or later. The 22 A35K can allay LH's short to medium-term capacity needs.

I always wonder about the obsession with "replacing", trying to come up with exact numbers to replace. The world population and global tourism is only increasing. So what's up with a.nets obsession with trying to find exact capacity replacements?

Right now, only like 10 percent of the world population ever flew in an airplane, but it is increasing quickly with a growing middle class in China and India wanting to visit Europe. Same with subsaharan Africa soon enough.

HKAusFlyer · Sun May 08, 2022 7:30 am

MrHMSH wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Why? Most of the largest A35K operators also have the 777X on order.

HKAusFlyer wrote:

LH still has 8 Boeing 747-400s and 19x 747-8I passenger aircraft in service, while also having 14 A380s in storage. That adds up to 41 large capacity aircraft.

I imagine even after taking 22 of Qatar's on-order (but will become undelivered) A350-1000s, that still leaves 19 examples in the gap to be filled. Looks to me that the remaining 20 Boeing 777-9Xs will remain in the LH fleet plan.

In fact, 22 A350-1000s and 20 777-9Xs seem a perfect combo for replacing LH's 4-engine portfolio in one go, by the second half of the 2020s when the 777X starts arriving in 2025 or later. The 22 A35K can allay LH's short to medium-term capacity needs.

The A380s are effectively written off, their capacity is not needed badly enough that they've been reactivated, and all indications are that they are gone for good, in which case the A35K would at least get close to the replacement numbers. Regardless, it likely means that the 777X order will not expand much, if at all.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/luf ... 22.article

Apparently LH CEO Carsten Spohr says those stored A380s in Spain are still an option for the Group, if and when demand dictates it and the 777X can't be delivered in time.

MrHMSH · Sun May 08, 2022 1:35 pm

HKAusFlyer wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Why? Most of the largest A35K operators also have the 777X on order.

HKAusFlyer wrote:

LH still has 8 Boeing 747-400s and 19x 747-8I passenger aircraft in service, while also having 14 A380s in storage. That adds up to 41 large capacity aircraft.

I imagine even after taking 22 of Qatar's on-order (but will become undelivered) A350-1000s, that still leaves 19 examples in the gap to be filled. Looks to me that the remaining 20 Boeing 777-9Xs will remain in the LH fleet plan.

In fact, 22 A350-1000s and 20 777-9Xs seem a perfect combo for replacing LH's 4-engine portfolio in one go, by the second half of the 2020s when the 777X starts arriving in 2025 or later. The 22 A35K can allay LH's short to medium-term capacity needs.

The A380s are effectively written off, their capacity is not needed badly enough that they've been reactivated, and all indications are that they are gone for good, in which case the A35K would at least get close to the replacement numbers. Regardless, it likely means that the 777X order will not expand much, if at all.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/luf ... 22.article

Apparently LH CEO Carsten Spohr says those stored A380s in Spain are still an option for the Group, if and when demand dictates it and the 777X can't be delivered in time.

Interesting, I hadn't seen that. Would be quite a resurrection for the whale, even if it's only to bridge the gap to the 777X.

xl0hr · Sun May 08, 2022 1:54 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
HKAusFlyer wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

The A380s are effectively written off, their capacity is not needed badly enough that they've been reactivated, and all indications are that they are gone for good, in which case the A35K would at least get close to the replacement numbers. Regardless, it likely means that the 777X order will not expand much, if at all.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/luf ... 22.article

Apparently LH CEO Carsten Spohr says those stored A380s in Spain are still an option for the Group, if and when demand dictates it and the 777X can't be delivered in time.

Interesting, I hadn't seen that. Would be quite a resurrection for the whale, even if it's only to bridge the gap to the 777X.

But Spohr said in that earnings call that A343 and A346 were maybe helping bridge the gap to 777X and just relaxed his "A380 is gone" stance very slightly. It sounded possible but very unlikely, esp. if short term A350-1000 were joining I guess.

LXA340 · Sun May 08, 2022 3:31 pm

You could also move the 77W's from LX to LH as these can be flown by the same pilot corps would then be the perfect mix in addition to the 77X. In turn LX will receive new A350-1000 and A359's to replace A343's and add lost capacity of the 5 A333's that have been withdrawn from the fleet permanently.

a2b7 · Sun May 08, 2022 7:32 pm

HKAusFlyer wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
conaly wrote:
Aero.de is reporting Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus about some A350-900, that can't be delivered to Aeroflot anymore, as well as some A350-1000, that Qatar Airways didn't take up.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-42555/Lufthans ... -1000.html

The A350-1000 could help them to bridge the gap in their fleet, until the 777-9 arrives. However, as the T7 was supposed to be stationed in Frankfurt, they will need to either transfer some pilots again from Munich, or train some FRA-based crews on the A350 (which shouldn't be much of a problem, as there are some Cross Crew Qualification programs from A330/A340 or A380 to A350).

That could be a damaging development for the 777X. I do think LH needs and should take them, but we weren't expecting any A35Ks at LH, so if they do take these that does lessen the need for 777Xs. It might not be a huge order like EK's, but it would be a high-profile disappointment. Seems like LH can't get enough A350s!

LH still has 8 Boeing 747-400s and 19x 747-8I passenger aircraft in service, while also having 14 A380s in storage. That adds up to 41 large capacity aircraft.

I imagine even after taking 22 of Qatar's on-order (but will become undelivered) A350-1000s, that still leaves 19 examples in the gap to be filled. Looks to me that the remaining 20 Boeing 777-9Xs will remain in the LH fleet plan.

In fact, 22 A350-1000s and 20 777-9Xs seem a perfect combo for replacing LH's 4-engine portfolio in one go, by the second half of the 2020s when the 777X starts arriving in 2025 or later. The 22 A35K can allay LH's short to medium-term capacity needs.

I am afraid the discussion is only about Airbus looking for new customers for the A350-1000s that Qatar did / will not take up. Looking at the production list at abcdlist.nl, these should only be between 5 and 9 airframes. Note that some MSNs that were reserved for Qatar will not be built.

accentra · Sun May 08, 2022 9:07 pm

a2b7 wrote:
HKAusFlyer wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

That could be a damaging development for the 777X. I do think LH needs and should take them, but we weren't expecting any A35Ks at LH, so if they do take these that does lessen the need for 777Xs. It might not be a huge order like EK's, but it would be a high-profile disappointment. Seems like LH can't get enough A350s!

LH still has 8 Boeing 747-400s and 19x 747-8I passenger aircraft in service, while also having 14 A380s in storage. That adds up to 41 large capacity aircraft.

I imagine even after taking 22 of Qatar's on-order (but will become undelivered) A350-1000s, that still leaves 19 examples in the gap to be filled. Looks to me that the remaining 20 Boeing 777-9Xs will remain in the LH fleet plan.

In fact, 22 A350-1000s and 20 777-9Xs seem a perfect combo for replacing LH's 4-engine portfolio in one go, by the second half of the 2020s when the 777X starts arriving in 2025 or later. The 22 A35K can allay LH's short to medium-term capacity needs.

I am afraid the discussion is only about Airbus looking for new customers for the A350-1000s that Qatar did / will not take up. Looking at the production list at abcdlist.nl, these should only be between 5 and 9 airframes. Note that some MSNs that were reserved for Qatar will not be built.

Or will they be built, if another customer (like LH) takes over the positions? I would hazard a guess that part of the discussions about taking over the NTU frames could also involve discussions about assuming the future delivery positions too. That would be logical, no?

Nicoeddf · Mon May 09, 2022 4:46 pm

One hears 777-8F, 787-9 and more 777F have been ordered…

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsroom.html

jbs2886 · Mon May 09, 2022 4:56 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
One hears 777-8F, 787-9 and more 777F have been ordered…

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsroom.html

7x 787-9s, 7x 77X-8F, and 3 777F

Aircellist · Mon May 09, 2022 5:02 pm

If here is the right place to ask such a question, then please what is the usage of the A340 on YUL presently, and for how long?

Breathe · Mon May 09, 2022 5:21 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
One hears 777-8F, 787-9 and more 777F have been ordered…

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsroom.html

The press release regarding the new 787s says:

Lufthansa will receive the aircraft, which were originally intended for other airlines, in 2025 and 2026.

Any ideas which airlines they were originally destined to and what engines they will use?

mig17 · Mon May 09, 2022 5:32 pm

7 free 787-9 + free earlier slots for 25 787-9 = compensation for 2 years of delays on 20 777-9 ... that's expensive.

Opus99 · Mon May 09, 2022 5:39 pm

mig17 wrote:
7 free 787-9 + free earlier slots for 25 787-9 = compensation for 2 years of delays on 20 777-9 ... that's expensive.

Thats keeping your factories alive

MIflyer12 · Mon May 09, 2022 5:39 pm

mig17 wrote:
7 free 787-9 + free earlier slots for 25 787-9 = compensation for 2 years of delays on 20 777-9 ... that's expensive.

I don't think we can infer that the 787-9s were free. Compensation credits may have covered some part of cost.

alphairspace · Mon May 09, 2022 5:57 pm

LXA340 wrote:
You could also move the 77W's from LX to LH as these can be flown by the same pilot corps would then be the perfect mix in addition to the 77X. In turn LX will receive new A350-1000 and A359's to replace A343's and add lost capacity of the 5 A333's that have been withdrawn from the fleet permanently.

Wrong. CS confirmed in an interview that all 5 will return in the future. And why would you swap 77W to LH? Swiss is more than happy with the 77W and their performance, also in the belly cargo sector.

https://abouttravel.ch/reisebranche/tra ... -groesser/

It’s likely that LX gets together with Edelweiss a total of 10 A359 to replace the 9 remaining A343.

LifelinerOne · Mon May 09, 2022 6:09 pm

The question is, will these 7 B777-8Fs be a conversion of B777-9s Lufthansa had on order...?

Cheers! :wave:

Opus99 · Mon May 09, 2022 6:10 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
The question is, will these 7 B777-8Fs be a conversion of B777-9s Lufthansa had on order...?

Cheers!

The Boeing release confirms they are additional

Cheers

LifelinerOne · Mon May 09, 2022 6:27 pm

Opus99 wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
The question is, will these 7 B777-8Fs be a conversion of B777-9s Lufthansa had on order...?

Cheers!

The Boeing release confirms they are additional

Cheers

No it doesn't. It says:

- Seven Boeing 777-8Fs from 2027
- Additional Boeing 777F freighters to take advantage of near-term market opportunities

The "additional" is referencing to the 3 B777Fs, not the -8Fs.

Cheers! :wave:

jbs2886 · Mon May 09, 2022 6:36 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
The question is, will these 7 B777-8Fs be a conversion of B777-9s Lufthansa had on order...?

Cheers!

The Boeing release confirms they are additional

Cheers

No it doesn't. It says:

- Seven Boeing 777-8Fs from 2027
- Additional Boeing 777F freighters to take advantage of near-term market opportunities

The "additional" is referencing to the 3 B777Fs, not the -8Fs.

Cheers!

Well the Boeing release says LH has 20 firm passenger 777X orders: “The Group also is a launch customer for the 777X passenger airplane, with 20 firm orders.” https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-05-09 ... ional-787s

ikolkyo · Mon May 09, 2022 7:00 pm

LH orders 7 more 787-9s and has accelerated delivery of aircraft.

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsr ... craft.html

Opus99 · Mon May 09, 2022 7:14 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The Boeing release confirms they are additional

Cheers

No it doesn't. It says:

- Seven Boeing 777-8Fs from 2027
- Additional Boeing 777F freighters to take advantage of near-term market opportunities

The "additional" is referencing to the 3 B777Fs, not the -8Fs.

Cheers!

Well the Boeing release says LH has 20 firm passenger 777X orders: “The Group also is a launch customer for the 777X passenger airplane, with 20 firm orders.” https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-05-09 ... ional-787s

Thank you

LAXintl · Mon May 09, 2022 7:35 pm

Guess we can close the door on A350F at LH.

Back in December, they stated "Lufthansa will hold talks with Airbus on the A350F freighter to see what operational benefits it would bring and how cost effective the whole package would be.”

FluidFlow · Mon May 09, 2022 7:40 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Guess we can close the door on A350F at LH.

Back in December, they stated "Lufthansa will hold talks with Airbus on the A350F freighter to see what operational benefits it would bring and how cost effective the whole package would be.”

To be fair if Boeing has to hand them over almost for free it will never be cost effective for LH to actually buy Airbus aircraft.

I know they are not fully for free but even the NTU 787 are what 8? months delayed and 5 years on the 77X, tjats a lot of credit.

Congrats to LH for the deal of a life time.

JerseyFlyer · Mon May 09, 2022 8:32 pm

LH's initial 787 order was planned to have RR power, but the second already-built batch is apparently to come with GE. What of these additional frames?

accentra · Mon May 09, 2022 9:14 pm

It will be interesting to see what engines these additional 787s end up with. LH opted for RR for their original frames. But things are becoming muddied as Boeing offers them NTUs, potentially with GE engines. We'll see what the fleet ultimately looks like.

accentra · Mon May 09, 2022 9:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
7 free 787-9 + free earlier slots for 25 787-9 = compensation for 2 years of delays on 20 777-9 ... that's expensive.

I don't think we can infer that the 787-9s were free. Compensation credits may have covered some part of cost.

I suspect that Boeing had to move fast and go quite far to shore up the LH 779 order, in light of the new delays to the programme. The chatter over the last days has all been about LH taking the QR NTU A350-1000s and, potentially, taking over the future QR delivery positions. That could have played badly for the 779. This keeps Lufthansa onboard and committed to the 779. Be interesting to see what happens with the QR A350s and LH now! LH could still have room for them.

mig17 · Mon May 09, 2022 10:29 pm

accentra wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
7 free 787-9 + free earlier slots for 25 787-9 = compensation for 2 years of delays on 20 777-9 ... that's expensive.

I don't think we can infer that the 787-9s were free. Compensation credits may have covered some part of cost.

I suspect that Boeing had to move fast and go quite far to shore up the LH 779 order, in light of the new delays to the programme. The chatter over the last days has all been about LH taking the QR NTU A350-1000s and, potentially, taking over the future QR delivery positions. That could have played badly for the 779. This keeps Lufthansa onboard and committed to the 779. Be interesting to see what happens with the QR A350s and LH now! LH could still have room for them.

The wording is ambiguous: "Seven Boeing 787-9s will compensate for delayed 777-9 deliveries", but what ever level of compensation credit there is here, it seems costly.
By the same logic, EK could get 40 787-9 the same way with 115 777-9 delayed.

sxf24 · Mon May 09, 2022 10:31 pm

mig17 wrote:
accentra wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I don't think we can infer that the 787-9s were free. Compensation credits may have covered some part of cost.

I suspect that Boeing had to move fast and go quite far to shore up the LH 779 order, in light of the new delays to the programme. The chatter over the last days has all been about LH taking the QR NTU A350-1000s and, potentially, taking over the future QR delivery positions. That could have played badly for the 779. This keeps Lufthansa onboard and committed to the 779. Be interesting to see what happens with the QR A350s and LH now! LH could still have room for them.

The wording is ambiguous: "Seven Boeing 787-9s will compensate for delayed 777-9 deliveries", but what ever level of compensation credit there is here, it seems costly.
By the same logic, EK could get 40 787-9 the same way with 115 777-9 delayed.

While the headline is ambiguous, the body of the press release was clear: …intended to fill the capacity gaps created by the delayed delivery of the 777X.

accentra · Mon May 09, 2022 11:45 pm

mig17 wrote:
accentra wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I don't think we can infer that the 787-9s were free. Compensation credits may have covered some part of cost.

I suspect that Boeing had to move fast and go quite far to shore up the LH 779 order, in light of the new delays to the programme. The chatter over the last days has all been about LH taking the QR NTU A350-1000s and, potentially, taking over the future QR delivery positions. That could have played badly for the 779. This keeps Lufthansa onboard and committed to the 779. Be interesting to see what happens with the QR A350s and LH now! LH could still have room for them.

The wording is ambiguous: "Seven Boeing 787-9s will compensate for delayed 777-9 deliveries", but what ever level of compensation credit there is here, it seems costly.
By the same logic, EK could get 40 787-9 the same way with 115 777-9 delayed.

Yes, could be that all the 779 airlines will be seeking something similar, now this precedent has been set. I would imagine BA will be looking at this 'deal' very closely and probably expecting something similar to be offered to them? Although I think they've already had some deal on 787s as compensation for various programme delays?

Opus99 · Tue May 10, 2022 12:07 am

accentra wrote:
mig17 wrote:
accentra wrote:

I suspect that Boeing had to move fast and go quite far to shore up the LH 779 order, in light of the new delays to the programme. The chatter over the last days has all been about LH taking the QR NTU A350-1000s and, potentially, taking over the future QR delivery positions. That could have played badly for the 779. This keeps Lufthansa onboard and committed to the 779. Be interesting to see what happens with the QR A350s and LH now! LH could still have room for them.

The wording is ambiguous: "Seven Boeing 787-9s will compensate for delayed 777-9 deliveries", but what ever level of compensation credit there is here, it seems costly.
By the same logic, EK could get 40 787-9 the same way with 115 777-9 delayed.

Yes, could be that all the 779 airlines will be seeking something similar, now this precedent has been set. I would imagine BA will be looking at this 'deal' very closely and probably expecting something similar to be offered to them? Although I think they've already had some deal on 787s as compensation for various programme delays?

BA took 787-10 options with their credits. They might convert those into orders or something

Cardude2 · Tue May 10, 2022 12:41 am

accentra wrote:
It will be interesting to see what engines these additional 787s end up with. LH opted for RR for their original frames. But things are becoming muddied as Boeing offers them NTUs, potentially with GE engines. We'll see what the fleet ultimately looks like.

LH's fleet will probably be all GE due to the 748 while the RRs will go to the other airlines (i.e: OS, SN, or 4Y)

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