Any updates on Viva launching BOG-BWI as stated in here from November? https://simpleflying.com/viva-65-new-ro ... mqMdBvBG2Q

Wonder if this was a casualty of the Avianca acquisition.

USAirALB wrote:

blockski wrote:

Noreastshuttle wrote:

But one thing that BWI has that clearly IAD will never have is Express Trains from the City Center. That I believe will still be strong decision maker especially for domestic travel considerations.

When I lived in NYC, subway went to JFK airport by way of A train/ AirTrain. A lot of us in the City Center (Manhattan) never had taken it because of the distance and amount of stops to get there similar to one forecasted for the Silver (1 Hour).

Many of us had opted for LGA because its just closer (like DCA) or EWR because of express trains straight from Penn Station ( like BWI). I feel even after the completion of the the Silver Line, it will be the same.

This is a case where the perception of an “express” service is overrated. The silver line won’t just provide access from the city center, but also from many other locations with much more frequent service.

For lots of DC travelers using BWI, any speed advantage for the “express” is lost with needing to travel to the MARC train, plus the shuttle bus from the rail station to the airport.

MARC timetables vary depending on the stopping pattern, but the train time is between 32 and 40 minutes. It’s not going to be meaningfully faster for most travelers.

Now, will the Silver Line magically make IAD feel closer? No. But let’s not pretend that BWI has some magic access to DC. It does not.

This.

There's also very few Express trains to BWI as it is, and none that run on the weekends.

There's only two Express trains in the morning to BWI (departing Union at 6:30a and 7:50a). In the evening, there are two "super Express" trains (trains that make no stops between Union and BWI) that depart at both 4:17P and 5:18P...I believed they are marked as "BWI Express" on Union Station monitors.

The point is that the vast majority of BWI passengers that use MARC are stuck on local trains that take as long as 39 minutes. Once you factor in the shuttle ride of 15 minutes, (say 5 minutes to wait for the shuttle and 10 minute ride), and the Red Line ride to Union, most people will find it faster to reach Dulles on the Silver Line versus MARC to BWI, unless you happen to be coming from a destination that is on the Red Line.

Wow. I guess us DC folks don’t use Amtrak ever and exclusively use MARC train service?

I will apologize for using the term “express” and it being taking literally and as it should have been. What I meant was simply a faster train with less stops that’s also scheduled.

As a Washingtonian who lives Downtown, If National was not an option, I would exclusively look at BWI rather than IAD for my domestic options. I personally don’t think the Silver Line extension will change that either. As I stated before, I think the mindset will be quite similar of New Yorkers taking the A train to and from Manhattan. I mean, how many of you take the A train into Manhattan from JFK?

Noreastshuttle wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

blockski wrote:

This is a case where the perception of an “express” service is overrated. The silver line won’t just provide access from the city center, but also from many other locations with much more frequent service.

For lots of DC travelers using BWI, any speed advantage for the “express” is lost with needing to travel to the MARC train, plus the shuttle bus from the rail station to the airport.

MARC timetables vary depending on the stopping pattern, but the train time is between 32 and 40 minutes. It’s not going to be meaningfully faster for most travelers.

Now, will the Silver Line magically make IAD feel closer? No. But let’s not pretend that BWI has some magic access to DC. It does not.

This.

There's also very few Express trains to BWI as it is, and none that run on the weekends.

There's only two Express trains in the morning to BWI (departing Union at 6:30a and 7:50a). In the evening, there are two "super Express" trains (trains that make no stops between Union and BWI) that depart at both 4:17P and 5:18P...I believed they are marked as "BWI Express" on Union Station monitors.

The point is that the vast majority of BWI passengers that use MARC are stuck on local trains that take as long as 39 minutes. Once you factor in the shuttle ride of 15 minutes, (say 5 minutes to wait for the shuttle and 10 minute ride), and the Red Line ride to Union, most people will find it faster to reach Dulles on the Silver Line versus MARC to BWI, unless you happen to be coming from a destination that is on the Red Line.

Wow. I guess us DC folks don’t use Amtrak ever and exclusively use MARC train service?

I will apologize for using the term “express” and it being taking literally and as it should have been. What I meant was simply a faster train with less stops that’s also scheduled.

As a Washingtonian who lives Downtown, If National was not an option, I would exclusively look at BWI rather than IAD for my domestic options. I personally don’t think the Silver Line extension will change that either. As I stated before, I think the mindset will be quite similar of New Yorkers taking the A train to and from Manhattan. I mean, how many of you take the A train into Manhattan from JFK?

A faster train that has less stops that's also scheduled is an Express train, so I am not sure what you mean. As I said in my post, there are very few MARC Express trains (trains with less stops) to BWI from Union.

Amtrak is a good option, but if you take it during rush hour you might not find a seat and there is less standing room when compared with MARC trains.

I'm not sure what you meant with your A train analogy. Plenty of people take the A train to JFK, especially if they live in lower Manhattan. Taking the A Train to JFK via Howard Beach from Lower Manhattan is the exact same time wise by taking the 2 or 3 to Atlantic Terminal and transferring to the LIRR to Jamaica and then taking the AirTrain from there. I know because I have done both, and both Google Maps and Apple Maps show the same time...1h03m. I always prefer to make less transfers, and I imagine most people are the same.

To each their own. I don't like BWI. I don't like taking the MARC shuttle bus, and I think the terminal isn't as nice as at IAD, which has multiple Priority Pass lounges. Flight options aren't good unless you fly WN, which I don't like to do because their points aren't valuable to me.

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

USAirALB wrote:

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

DC people scoff at BWI because it's not a DC airport like Dulles is (even though it's not).

smokeybandit wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

DC people scoff at BWI because it's not a DC airport like Dulles is (even though it's not).

FWIW, DCA isn't in DC either.

Most people in DC have the common sense to know that DCA/IAD are in VA and BWI is in MD.

BWIAirport wrote:

Any updates on Viva launching BOG-BWI as stated in here from November? https://simpleflying.com/viva-65-new-ro ... mqMdBvBG2Q

Wonder if this was a casualty of the Avianca acquisition.

They haven’t announced anything since the initial headlines that they were applying for BWI among other routes. That kind of makes me think it hasn’t been approved by the DOT yet.

smokeybandit wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

DC people scoff at BWI because it's not a DC airport like Dulles is (even though it's not).

Well I think it might also have to do with who exactly is being asked. If they are a Southwest person or someone who wants lower cost flights then they would go to BWI. While DCA and IAD both have Southwest flights it is much much fewer. If someone wants convenience or flies American a lot then they would most likely go to DCA. If someone travels on United a lot or wants to go international then they go to Dulles. This is assuming the person lives in DC of course. People living in NoVa or Maryland might have a different preference.

Noreastshuttle wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

blockski wrote:

This is a case where the perception of an “express” service is overrated. The silver line won’t just provide access from the city center, but also from many other locations with much more frequent service.

For lots of DC travelers using BWI, any speed advantage for the “express” is lost with needing to travel to the MARC train, plus the shuttle bus from the rail station to the airport.

MARC timetables vary depending on the stopping pattern, but the train time is between 32 and 40 minutes. It’s not going to be meaningfully faster for most travelers.

Now, will the Silver Line magically make IAD feel closer? No. But let’s not pretend that BWI has some magic access to DC. It does not.

This.

There's also very few Express trains to BWI as it is, and none that run on the weekends.

There's only two Express trains in the morning to BWI (departing Union at 6:30a and 7:50a). In the evening, there are two "super Express" trains (trains that make no stops between Union and BWI) that depart at both 4:17P and 5:18P...I believed they are marked as "BWI Express" on Union Station monitors.

The point is that the vast majority of BWI passengers that use MARC are stuck on local trains that take as long as 39 minutes. Once you factor in the shuttle ride of 15 minutes, (say 5 minutes to wait for the shuttle and 10 minute ride), and the Red Line ride to Union, most people will find it faster to reach Dulles on the Silver Line versus MARC to BWI, unless you happen to be coming from a destination that is on the Red Line.

Wow. I guess us DC folks don’t use Amtrak ever and exclusively use MARC train service?

I will apologize for using the term “express” and it being taking literally and as it should have been. What I meant was simply a faster train with less stops that’s also scheduled.

As a Washingtonian who lives Downtown, If National was not an option, I would exclusively look at BWI rather than IAD for my domestic options. I personally don’t think the Silver Line extension will change that either. As I stated before, I think the mindset will be quite similar of New Yorkers taking the A train to and from Manhattan. I mean, how many of you take the A train into Manhattan from JFK?

Amtrak is a bit faster, but not that much. The key distinction is between maximum speed and journey time.

Right now, if you punch in to Google Maps or Apple Maps directions from, say, the White House to either IAD or BWI, the travel times to IAD are consistently faster - and that's before the Silver line even opens.

The timetable for Union Station to BWI is still like 27 minutes; not to mention the much more expensive tickets; if you need a separate ride to get to Union Station, plus the added shuttle bus at BWI rail station, it's not hard to see how the required transfers to use Amtrak or MARC erode any speed advantage.

The other advantage that the Silver line will have is frequency. Offering all-day frequent service is going to be the biggest benefit of Metro to Dulles. Once Metro has all their ducks in a row, trains will be running every 6 minutes at peak hours. The 5A bus today runs once an hour.

I don't think your experience is particularly illuminating as far as airport preference goes. I don't think there are many who would exclusively look at BWI over IAD, absent a particular preference for one of the hub airlines.

USAirALB wrote:

smokeybandit wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

DC people scoff at BWI because it's not a DC airport like Dulles is (even though it's not).

FWIW, DCA isn't in DC either.

Most people in DC have the common sense to know that DCA/IAD are in VA and BWI is in MD.

The reason why people think of DCA and IAD as "DC airports" is because they were built to serve DC. In fact, both were built by the local government of Washington, DC at the time. You can even get into the territorial minutae about DCA's runways literally built within the part of the river flats within the District of Columbia.

It's not uncommon - people will think of SFO as San Francisco's airport because it is literally owned and operated by the City, despite the fact that it is located well outside the City limits.

USAirALB wrote:

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

Been over a decade since I was based in the city but I didn't mind BWI at all - flew mostly Southwest and was easy to catch the express bus from Greenbelt from where I lived. The express bus now appears greatly reduced in service and my reasons for flying Southwest - consistently lower prices - no longer really exist the way they once did. I've only flown into/out of Dulles once, for an international flight, and I wasn't even living in the city at the time. When I wasn't paying for the flight or the cost difference was negligible, I'd fly out of DCA.

I'd reckon there's still some geographical and price preference involved, and I've only traveled thru a couple times in the past few years, but IAD's certainly more convenient from downtown DC than BWI at the moment.

Noreastshuttle wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

blockski wrote:

This is a case where the perception of an “express” service is overrated. The silver line won’t just provide access from the city center, but also from many other locations with much more frequent service.

For lots of DC travelers using BWI, any speed advantage for the “express” is lost with needing to travel to the MARC train, plus the shuttle bus from the rail station to the airport.

MARC timetables vary depending on the stopping pattern, but the train time is between 32 and 40 minutes. It’s not going to be meaningfully faster for most travelers.

Now, will the Silver Line magically make IAD feel closer? No. But let’s not pretend that BWI has some magic access to DC. It does not.

This.

There's also very few Express trains to BWI as it is, and none that run on the weekends.

There's only two Express trains in the morning to BWI (departing Union at 6:30a and 7:50a). In the evening, there are two "super Express" trains (trains that make no stops between Union and BWI) that depart at both 4:17P and 5:18P...I believed they are marked as "BWI Express" on Union Station monitors.

The point is that the vast majority of BWI passengers that use MARC are stuck on local trains that take as long as 39 minutes. Once you factor in the shuttle ride of 15 minutes, (say 5 minutes to wait for the shuttle and 10 minute ride), and the Red Line ride to Union, most people will find it faster to reach Dulles on the Silver Line versus MARC to BWI, unless you happen to be coming from a destination that is on the Red Line.

Wow. I guess us DC folks don’t use Amtrak ever and exclusively use MARC train service?

I will apologize for using the term “express” and it being taking literally and as it should have been. What I meant was simply a faster train with less stops that’s also scheduled.

As a Washingtonian who lives Downtown, If National was not an option, I would exclusively look at BWI rather than IAD for my domestic options. I personally don’t think the Silver Line extension will change that either. As I stated before, I think the mindset will be quite similar of New Yorkers taking the A train to and from Manhattan. I mean, how many of you take the A train into Manhattan from JFK?

Obviously where you live plays a role in what's easier. So where is the starting point for this journey?

I will say that the Silver Line isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. When I lived in Ashburn, I used to take it to my office near McPherson Square. The worst part of the journey was getting to the Wiehle Reston station, not the train itself. And Metro lines generally ave far fewer stops than a NYC subway line, so comparing the two is apples to oranges.

USAirALB wrote:

smokeybandit wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

DC people scoff at BWI because it's not a DC airport like Dulles is (even though it's not).

FWIW, DCA isn't in DC either.

Most people in DC have the common sense to know that DCA/IAD are in VA and BWI is in MD.

After living near DC for 15 years, one thing the area doesn't have is common sense.

smokeybandit wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

smokeybandit wrote:

DC people scoff at BWI because it's not a DC airport like Dulles is (even though it's not).

FWIW, DCA isn't in DC either.

Most people in DC have the common sense to know that DCA/IAD are in VA and BWI is in MD.

After living near DC for 15 years, one thing the area doesn't have is common sense.

Perhaps because unlike NY, you have 3 cities in one: DMV.

Some bad storms ripped through last night.. I wonder how many flights were delayed/canceled/diverted... that was as intense as I've seen in a while.

USAirALB wrote:

Noreastshuttle wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

This.

There's also very few Express trains to BWI as it is, and none that run on the weekends.

There's only two Express trains in the morning to BWI (departing Union at 6:30a and 7:50a). In the evening, there are two "super Express" trains (trains that make no stops between Union and BWI) that depart at both 4:17P and 5:18P...I believed they are marked as "BWI Express" on Union Station monitors.

The point is that the vast majority of BWI passengers that use MARC are stuck on local trains that take as long as 39 minutes. Once you factor in the shuttle ride of 15 minutes, (say 5 minutes to wait for the shuttle and 10 minute ride), and the Red Line ride to Union, most people will find it faster to reach Dulles on the Silver Line versus MARC to BWI, unless you happen to be coming from a destination that is on the Red Line.

Wow. I guess us DC folks don’t use Amtrak ever and exclusively use MARC train service?

I will apologize for using the term “express” and it being taking literally and as it should have been. What I meant was simply a faster train with less stops that’s also scheduled.

As a Washingtonian who lives Downtown, If National was not an option, I would exclusively look at BWI rather than IAD for my domestic options. I personally don’t think the Silver Line extension will change that either. As I stated before, I think the mindset will be quite similar of New Yorkers taking the A train to and from Manhattan. I mean, how many of you take the A train into Manhattan from JFK?

A faster train that has less stops that's also scheduled is an Express train, so I am not sure what you mean. As I said in my post, there are very few MARC Express trains (trains with less stops) to BWI from Union.

Amtrak is a good option, but if you take it during rush hour you might not find a seat and there is less standing room when compared with MARC trains.

I'm not sure what you meant with your A train analogy. Plenty of people take the A train to JFK, especially if they live in lower Manhattan. Taking the A Train to JFK via Howard Beach from Lower Manhattan is the exact same time wise by taking the 2 or 3 to Atlantic Terminal and transferring to the LIRR to Jamaica and then taking the AirTrain from there. I know because I have done both, and both Google Maps and Apple Maps show the same time...1h03m. I always prefer to make less transfers, and I imagine most people are the same.

To each their own. I don't like BWI. I don't like taking the MARC shuttle bus, and I think the terminal isn't as nice as at IAD, which has multiple Priority Pass lounges. Flight options aren't good unless you fly WN, which I don't like to do because their points aren't valuable to me.

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

I live in Frederick, of all three airports are nearly the same distance, I prefer IAD even for domestic travel.

I like IAD because:
It's an easy trip via US 15 to 7 & 28 with nearly zero traffic lights.
I find it easy to navigate
I like how they have security screening set up
I never get a full anal probe at screening
I like the schedules

Reasons I don;t like DCA:
PITA ass to find parking
Dealing with I-270 and the GWP
Have to use Metrorail to get in
Lack of non-stop flights

Reasons I don't like BWI
Anal probes every time, even with TSA Pre-check
Beagle brigades loves to try to hump my leg
Dining options suck if delayed
Fewest flight options unless I want to fly WN who doesn't fly many intl's
(unless I am going to KEF)

The other advantage that the Silver line will have is frequency. Offering all-day frequent service is going to be the biggest benefit of Metro to Dulles. Once Metro has all their ducks in a row, trains will be running every 6 minutes at peak hours.

I had to laugh at this. Assuming it ever begins operation, six minutes is a pipe dream. Even without 7000-series in service which I still do not think will happen before the end of the year despite WMATA saying this fall, level of congestion on the blue and orange will never make six minute headway possible. WMATA still does not know why the wheels on the 7000-series are out of compliance. There a re eight train sets in service and each train set has its entire wheel set inspected EVERY night to track the fault.

Cannot imagine anyone paying the premium for Acela from BWI to Union over MARC to save six and a half minutes. Last check, Acela was $29 from BWI and MARC was like $8

DCA is less than 20 minutes for me on the yellow line. BWI was nice when the B30 bus operated but really only used commuting between BOS-DCA when I could get cheap flights on Spirit and just get on with a backpack. Getting to IAD is much easier on the Dulles access Highway. Plus lot more non stop international flight options from IAD obviously make it convenient.

Blimpie wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

Noreastshuttle wrote:

Wow. I guess us DC folks don’t use Amtrak ever and exclusively use MARC train service?

I will apologize for using the term “express” and it being taking literally and as it should have been. What I meant was simply a faster train with less stops that’s also scheduled.

As a Washingtonian who lives Downtown, If National was not an option, I would exclusively look at BWI rather than IAD for my domestic options. I personally don’t think the Silver Line extension will change that either. As I stated before, I think the mindset will be quite similar of New Yorkers taking the A train to and from Manhattan. I mean, how many of you take the A train into Manhattan from JFK?

A faster train that has less stops that's also scheduled is an Express train, so I am not sure what you mean. As I said in my post, there are very few MARC Express trains (trains with less stops) to BWI from Union.

Amtrak is a good option, but if you take it during rush hour you might not find a seat and there is less standing room when compared with MARC trains.

I'm not sure what you meant with your A train analogy. Plenty of people take the A train to JFK, especially if they live in lower Manhattan. Taking the A Train to JFK via Howard Beach from Lower Manhattan is the exact same time wise by taking the 2 or 3 to Atlantic Terminal and transferring to the LIRR to Jamaica and then taking the AirTrain from there. I know because I have done both, and both Google Maps and Apple Maps show the same time...1h03m. I always prefer to make less transfers, and I imagine most people are the same.

To each their own. I don't like BWI. I don't like taking the MARC shuttle bus, and I think the terminal isn't as nice as at IAD, which has multiple Priority Pass lounges. Flight options aren't good unless you fly WN, which I don't like to do because their points aren't valuable to me.

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

I live in Frederick, of all three airports are nearly the same distance, I prefer IAD even for domestic travel.

I like IAD because:
It's an easy trip via US 15 to 7 & 28 with nearly zero traffic lights.
I find it easy to navigate
I like how they have security screening set up
I never get a full anal probe at screening
I like the schedules

Reasons I don;t like DCA:
PITA ass to find parking
Dealing with I-270 and the GWP
Have to use Metrorail to get in
Lack of non-stop flights

Reasons I don't like BWI
Anal probes every time, even with TSA Pre-check
Beagle brigades loves to try to hump my leg
Dining options suck if delayed
Fewest flight options unless I want to fly WN who doesn't fly many intl's
(unless I am going to KEF)

The other advantage that the Silver line will have is frequency. Offering all-day frequent service is going to be the biggest benefit of Metro to Dulles. Once Metro has all their ducks in a row, trains will be running every 6 minutes at peak hours.

I had to laugh at this. Assuming it ever begins operation, six minutes is a pipe dream. Even without 7000-series in service which I still do not think will happen before the end of the year despite WMATA saying this fall, level of congestion on the blue and orange will never make six minute headway possible. WMATA still does not know why the wheels on the 7000-series are out of compliance. There a re eight train sets in service and each train set has its entire wheel set inspected EVERY night to track the fault.

Cannot imagine anyone paying the premium for Acela from BWI to Union over MARC to save six and a half minutes. Last check, Acela was $29 from BWI and MARC was like $8

I think the person who originally mentioned "express" just meant that the normal Amtrak Northeast Regional acts as the express train since it makes at most one stop between Union Station and BWI. That's only $8 in advance, but if you're going to buy a ticket for the trip from BWI when you land, you might pay a lot more -- right now (Sunday morning) prices range from $8 to $37, with the Acela at $29.

phugoid1982 wrote:

DCA is less than 20 minutes for me on the yellow line. BWI was nice when the B30 bus operated but really only used commuting between BOS-DCA when I could get cheap flights on Spirit and just get on with a backpack. Getting to IAD is much easier on the Dulles access Highway. Plus lot more non stop international flight options from IAD obviously make it convenient.

All of the responses highlight that people value different things. I think that means completion of the Silver Line won't be a "game changer" for IAD. But it certainly will tip the balance somewhat towards IAD since at least some people value the decreased, or at least more consistent, travel time. Even I, living much closer to BWI, expect that I will use IAD more frequently once the Silver Line is complete. I will certainly not miss watching the trains pull away from Wiehle-Reston East as the Sliver Line Express bus is making the turn into the station.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/loca ... e/3089338/

Looks like Halloween is the target now for opening for the Silver Line extension.

phugoid1982 wrote:

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/metro-testing-silver-line-extension-has-target-date-for-new-service/3089338/

Looks like Halloween is the target now for opening for the Silver Line extension.

Seems appropriate for how scary of a project that has been

DCA350 wrote:

Some bad storms ripped through last night.. I wonder how many flights were delayed/canceled/diverted... that was as intense as I've seen in a while.

Quick look at Flightradar: looks like everything after 7pm departed an hour late on average. Not sure about arrivals or diversions.

Is BWI going to expand international offerings in the future? In the past few years it seems to have gained some more flights across the pond but in general it still lacks a foothold in the international market other than WN flights to south.

DCA350 wrote:

Some bad storms ripped through last night.. I wonder how many flights were delayed/canceled/diverted... that was as intense as I've seen in a while.

Last night (Saturday) wasn't too bad on the DC metros. NY had some impacts, LGA in particular, but BOS probably had the most trouble with reroutes going over western PA from over the coast. The storms around the DMV were mostly of the "popcorn" variety, which means the cells pass relatively quickly and they're easy to work around. The storms in PA/NJ/NY formed a fairly solid line with tops upwards of FL500. Lines of storms are tough to work around because they can disrupt flows and require complete reroutes.

ClassicSpotter wrote:

Is BWI going to expand international offerings in the future? In the past few years it seems to have gained some more flights across the pond but in general it still lacks a foothold in the international market other than WN flights to south.

That really has more to do with the international market over the next few years than it does BWI itself.
BWI has a lot to be satisfied with for an airport of its size. Some summer nights have five flights to Europe or Africa: BA to LHR, DE to FRA, FI and OG to KEF, and HC to DSS. At some point this year, Norse is also expected to start LGW.
Because nearly every major city in Europe is a one-stop flight away, it could be tough to find financial space for another legacy carrier. That being said, there is likely room for a seasonal flight to another major city such as CDG or DUB.
I have always thought that DL could support a seasonal, less-than-daily 763 BWI-CDG, with AF connections on the other side. Aer Lingus's A321LR could bring BWI-DUB into financial viability as well. But I believe nothing is imminent, and there's a lot to be satisfied with right now.

BWIAirport wrote:

ClassicSpotter wrote:

Is BWI going to expand international offerings in the future? In the past few years it seems to have gained some more flights across the pond but in general it still lacks a foothold in the international market other than WN flights to south.

That really has more to do with the international market over the next few years than it does BWI itself.
BWI has a lot to be satisfied with for an airport of its size. Some summer nights have five flights to Europe or Africa: BA to LHR, DE to FRA, FI and OG to KEF, and HC to DSS. At some point this year, Norse is also expected to start LGW.
Because nearly every major city in Europe is a one-stop flight away, it could be tough to find financial space for another legacy carrier. That being said, there is likely room for a seasonal flight to another major city such as CDG or DUB.
I have always thought that DL could support a seasonal, less-than-daily 763 BWI-CDG, with AF connections on the other side. Aer Lingus's A321LR could bring BWI-DUB into financial viability as well. But I believe nothing is imminent, and there's a lot to be satisfied with right now.

Agreed. Since none of the US3 has a hub or focus at BWI connections are limited. So it's mostly its an O/D game and IAD is always going to win that for the DMV. I agree on Delta. If they can make CDG work from IND, I would think BWI could support a flight too.. I've never flown DE but seriously considering flying them once the A330NEOs arrive. That's a very nice product..

It will be interesting to se what happens with Spirit Airlines and whether JetBlue or Frontier will ultimately take ownership. No matter which merger partner Spirit choses, the new merged airline will have 10% control of the BWI market.

If Frontier wins, other Indigo brands like Lynx and Volaris could move in to BWI. Would Frontier get a transatlantic partner connecting Frontier and Wizz?

If JetBlue wins, would it keep the substantial BWI ops running along with its DCA operations or reduce BWI and use the aircraft to expand elsewhere? Keeping BWI would be very interesting and JetBlue would become a much bigger player in the combined WAS market. But even so, I can't see Jetblue international partners starting operations at BWI just to have Jetblue connections but it could help some borderline potential O&D flights. Maybe Qatar or Emirates starts a weekly flight to test the market.

czek6 wrote:

It will be interesting to se what happens with Spirit Airlines and whether JetBlue or Frontier will ultimately take ownership. No matter which merger partner Spirit choses, the new merged airline will have 10% control of the BWI market.

If Frontier wins, other Indigo brands like Lynx and Volaris could move in to BWI. Would Frontier get a transatlantic partner connecting Frontier and Wizz?

If JetBlue wins, would it keep the substantial BWI ops running along with its DCA operations or reduce BWI and use the aircraft to expand elsewhere? Keeping BWI would be very interesting and JetBlue would become a much bigger player in the combined WAS market. But even so, I can't see Jetblue international partners starting operations at BWI just to have Jetblue connections but it could help some borderline potential O&D flights. Maybe Qatar or Emirates starts a weekly flight to test the market.

Isn’t it also possible whoever wins that they move over to IAD? Although IAD had been really unfriendly to LCC and ULCC carriers would they do it for better connectivity with partner airlines such as the aforementioned Indigo Group?

I think moving to Dulles is very unlikely. JetBlue already left Dulles and Frontier just pulled out. I don't see either of them pulling down Spirit's substantial operation at BWI just to move to IAD when they've both left.

czek6 wrote:

I think moving to Dulles is very unlikely. JetBlue already left Dulles and Frontier just pulled out. I don't see either of them pulling down Spirit's substantial operation at BWI just to move to IAD when they've both left.

No LCC has done well at Dulles. Even WN is limited to ATL,MDW,and DEN now.
Allegiant has their little operation, but IIRC it used to be bigger—now it seems to be limited to AUS, JAX, BNA, and SRQ.
So I’m not sure why, especially when the BWI side of the area is much more fit for low cost service than the IAD, not to mention the histories of everyone pulling service from Dulles.

ahj2000 wrote:

Allegiant has their little operation, but IIRC it used to be bigger—now it seems to be limited to AUS, JAX, BNA, and SRQ.

Actually, quite the opposite. They started IAD last November with just JAX and SRQ, and have since added AUS and BNA.

ahj2000 wrote:

Even WN is limited to ATL,MDW,and DEN now.

IAD can probably support WN nonstop service to DAL and STL with the cuts that UA has made on IAD-DFW/STL and AA has made on IAD-DFW. WN also has significant FF bases in the DC, Dallas/Fort Worth, and St. Louis markets to support IAD-DAL/STL nonstop service on WN.

DFW was one of the top domestic destinations within the DCA perimeter that was traveled to from IAD prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and DFW-IAD is currently down to 2x daily nonstops on AA and 2x daily nonstops on UA.

UA is currently down to only 1x daily nonstop on IAD-STL, and IAD can support more nonstop service to STL. UA also likely has a bigger FF base in the STL market than it did in the past due to the LH STL-FRA nonstop flights that started in May 2022.

I am originally from Richmond and I find the comments bitching about the Metro interesting. I think the DC Metro is overall very nice. I have parked many times in Springfield and taken the Metro to Nationals games or elsewhere in DC. It is relatively cheap, clean, and hassle free. It beats the hell out of driving all the way into the city.

I have been on subway systems around the world. New York? Please. London? Rome and Paris are okay. I guess the comments to me seem a bit spoiled and naive. But maybe if I took it everyday I'd feel differently. I don't know. Just my .02 cents.

I’ve also ridden the Metro frequently since I’ve lived in the DC area for my entire life. In those years I’ve only had one or two bad experiences on Metro. Overall it’s not too bad but recently it’s gotten worse with the 7000 series getting pulled and wait times getting longer. It seems Back2Good was an exaggeration.

Looks like IAD is going to get around $50M from the Federal Govt towards their new terminal construction plan:

https://wtop.com/local/2022/07/faa-to-g ... -upgrades/

rivervisual wrote:

Looks like IAD is going to get around $50M from the Federal Govt towards their new terminal construction plan:

https://wtop.com/local/2022/07/faa-to-g ... -upgrades/

Well that's a start. The question is how long will MWAA drag it out.. I'm sure the funds have a use it or lose it date.

rivervisual wrote:

Looks like IAD is going to get around $50M from the Federal Govt towards their new terminal construction plan:

https://wtop.com/local/2022/07/faa-to-g ... -upgrades/

Good news.

If you go back to the financing plan that MWAA approved, the total cost for this 14 gate expansion was ~$675m, and MWAA proposed using bond funds for $550m of that, leaving a $125m gap (see the slide deck here: https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... irport.pdf )

The financing plan proposed closing that gap with a combination of either:

- Airport Terminal Grants from the Infrastructure law (which is what this announcement is for - https://www.faa.gov/bil/airport-terminals )
- Airport Infrastructure Grants from the Infrastructure law (Dulles received $22 million in Dec. 2021, unclear what specifically for - https://www.faa.gov/general/bipartisan- ... ng-amounts )
- Pay-as-you-go Funding

So, those two grant awards close about half of the gap; I guess the question will be if that's enough for MWAA to move forward.

ElroyJetson wrote:

I am originally from Richmond and I find the comments bitching about the Metro interesting. I think the DC Metro is overall very nice. I have parked many times in Springfield and taken the Metro to Nationals games or elsewhere in DC. It is relatively cheap, clean, and hassle free. It beats the hell out of driving all the way into the city.

I have been on subway systems around the world. New York? Please. London? Rome and Paris are okay. I guess the comments to me seem a bit spoiled and naive. But maybe if I took it everyday I'd feel differently. I don't know. Just my .02 cents.

Let's be fair here, there is a significant difference in experience between using it occasionally for leisure use versus using it frequently or even daily, so your experience is going to be very different from the everyday reality. The countless service issues and scandals that have plagued Metro for the past 6-8+ years have grown to be a bit of an embarrassment for many in the DC area, particularly those of us who remember when it had consistent and relatively hassle-free service. The current issues with the 7000 series cars (which represents the majority of the fleet) has made the system too inefficient for reliable use for the better part of a year now. Metro has a long way to go to repairing its reputation with DC residents, which is ostensibly what SafeTrack was intended to do a few years ago, but largely failed due to do many other safety issues cropping up.

The subway in New York has plenty of problems, but at least trains service stations frequently, especially during the rush. Some lines on Metro currently have 15-20 minute service intervals during rush hour, and even longer during off peak. Last fall and winter, the Silver Line was on 30+ minute intervals even during the rush. A 20 minute wait is fine when you're going to a baseball game on a Sunday afternoon, but you can't reliably commute with a system that doubles your commute time waiting for trains, especially if you're having to transfer to other lines.

Metro has the capability of being a fantastic service, but has fallen well short of expectations for locals for a lot of years now. It's not bitching when people expect better after so many serious safety and reliability problems. Between trains uncoupling while in motion, derailments caused by known wheel faults where service was deferred for years, and hundreds of train operators not being currently certified all having happened within the past 12 months, the excessive wait times and severe overcrowding on trains during the rush is just the cherry on top. Then there's the years of delays to the Silver Line phase II caused by serious construction faults and lousy quality control oversight, all while locals have had tolls hiked substantially on the Dulles Toll Road to pay for a service that hasn't even been completed. I don't think it's right to assert that people are simply complaining here for complaining's sake when we're the ones living with it.

blockski wrote:

rivervisual wrote:

Looks like IAD is going to get around $50M from the Federal Govt towards their new terminal construction plan:

https://wtop.com/local/2022/07/faa-to-g ... -upgrades/

Good news.

If you go back to the financing plan that MWAA approved, the total cost for this 14 gate expansion was ~$675m, and MWAA proposed using bond funds for $550m of that, leaving a $125m gap (see the slide deck here: https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... irport.pdf )

The financing plan proposed closing that gap with a combination of either:

- Airport Terminal Grants from the Infrastructure law (which is what this announcement is for - https://www.faa.gov/bil/airport-terminals )
- Airport Infrastructure Grants from the Infrastructure law (Dulles received $22 million in Dec. 2021, unclear what specifically for - https://www.faa.gov/general/bipartisan- ... ng-amounts )
- Pay-as-you-go Funding

So, those two grant awards close about half of the gap; I guess the question will be if that's enough for MWAA to move forward.

Don't they still have funds set aside from the land sale about two years ago? I thought that brought in something like $400 million. Also, I don't think the BIL has set aside specific allocations yet, so further federal funding could be on the way.

atcsundevil wrote:

blockski wrote:

rivervisual wrote:

Looks like IAD is going to get around $50M from the Federal Govt towards their new terminal construction plan:

https://wtop.com/local/2022/07/faa-to-g ... -upgrades/

Good news.

If you go back to the financing plan that MWAA approved, the total cost for this 14 gate expansion was ~$675m, and MWAA proposed using bond funds for $550m of that, leaving a $125m gap (see the slide deck here: https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... irport.pdf )

The financing plan proposed closing that gap with a combination of either:

- Airport Terminal Grants from the Infrastructure law (which is what this announcement is for - https://www.faa.gov/bil/airport-terminals )
- Airport Infrastructure Grants from the Infrastructure law (Dulles received $22 million in Dec. 2021, unclear what specifically for - https://www.faa.gov/general/bipartisan- ... ng-amounts )
- Pay-as-you-go Funding

So, those two grant awards close about half of the gap; I guess the question will be if that's enough for MWAA to move forward.

Don't they still have funds set aside from the land sale about two years ago? I thought that brought in something like $400 million. Also, I don't think the BIL has set aside specific allocations yet, so further federal funding could be on the way.

Yes, the pool of funds from the sale of the Western Lands was previously noted as a potential source of funding as part of the PayGo portion. I don't know how large that balance is. The sale was announced in 2018 for $236.5 million; the press release at the time mentioned a net of $200+ million after closing: https://www.mwaa.com/news/airports-auth ... ernational

I haven't looked in depth at the BIL, but I think what's just been announced is gonna be it for FY22; but we're just starting FY23, and there is additional money authorized (if not appropriated yet).

I'll bet we get an updated financial plan from MWAA soon, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them start this right now, and continue to apply for future funds - both once the Master Plan is complete, and also because they can continue to revise the financing plan to reduce the PayGo or bonding portions if additional grant dollars appear.

blockski wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

blockski wrote:

Good news.

If you go back to the financing plan that MWAA approved, the total cost for this 14 gate expansion was ~$675m, and MWAA proposed using bond funds for $550m of that, leaving a $125m gap (see the slide deck here: https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... irport.pdf )

The financing plan proposed closing that gap with a combination of either:

- Airport Terminal Grants from the Infrastructure law (which is what this announcement is for - https://www.faa.gov/bil/airport-terminals )
- Airport Infrastructure Grants from the Infrastructure law (Dulles received $22 million in Dec. 2021, unclear what specifically for - https://www.faa.gov/general/bipartisan- ... ng-amounts )
- Pay-as-you-go Funding

So, those two grant awards close about half of the gap; I guess the question will be if that's enough for MWAA to move forward.

Don't they still have funds set aside from the land sale about two years ago? I thought that brought in something like $400 million. Also, I don't think the BIL has set aside specific allocations yet, so further federal funding could be on the way.

Yes, the pool of funds from the sale of the Western Lands was previously noted as a potential source of funding as part of the PayGo portion. I don't know how large that balance is. The sale was announced in 2018 for $236.5 million; the press release at the time mentioned a net of $200+ million after closing: https://www.mwaa.com/news/airports-auth ... ernational

I haven't looked in depth at the BIL, but I think what's just been announced is gonna be it for FY22; but we're just starting FY23, and there is additional money authorized (if not appropriated yet).

I'll bet we get an updated financial plan from MWAA soon, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them start this right now, and continue to apply for future funds - both once the Master Plan is complete, and also because they can continue to revise the financing plan to reduce the PayGo or bonding portions if additional grant dollars appear.

It can't be that difficult coming up with the funding for this. As airport projects go, this isn't exactly an earth-shattering amount of money. If anything, the estimated cost seems a little on the low side.

atcsundevil wrote:

Metro has the capability of being a fantastic service, but has fallen well short of expectations for locals for a lot of years now. It's not bitching when people expect better after so many serious safety and reliability problems. Between trains uncoupling while in motion, derailments caused by known wheel faults where service was deferred for years, and hundreds of train operators not being currently certified all having happened within the past 12 months, the excessive wait times and severe overcrowding on trains during the rush is just the cherry on top. Then there's the years of delays to the Silver Line phase II caused by serious construction faults and lousy quality control oversight, all while locals have had tolls hiked substantially on the Dulles Toll Road to pay for a service that hasn't even been completed. I don't think it's right to assert that people are simply complaining here for complaining's sake when we're the ones living with it.

Here here! Could not have said it better myself. I'll also note that money does not appear to be the problem here. Sure, Metro is always complaining that it doesn't have enough money, but it has very high fees (I'm talking rail here, not bus), and it got something like over $1 billion in CARES Act money. There are much bigger problems with Metro, and, so far, nobody has developed a fix for those problems.

SRT75 wrote:

Here here! Could not have said it better myself. I'll also note that money does not appear to be the problem here. Sure, Metro is always complaining that it doesn't have enough money, but it has very high fees (I'm talking rail here, not bus), and it got something like over $1 billion in CARES Act money. There are much bigger problems with Metro, and, so far, nobody has developed a fix for those problems.

Not to mention the annual funding they get from DC/VA/MD that started a few years ago, which was something they'd been begging for since the system opened.

atcsundevil wrote:

SRT75 wrote:

Here here! Could not have said it better myself. I'll also note that money does not appear to be the problem here. Sure, Metro is always complaining that it doesn't have enough money, but it has very high fees (I'm talking rail here, not bus), and it got something like over $1 billion in CARES Act money. There are much bigger problems with Metro, and, so far, nobody has developed a fix for those problems.

Not to mention the annual funding they get from DC/VA/MD that started a few years ago, which was something they'd been begging for since the system opened.

They just just can't solve the problem of how to keep the wheels on the cars correctly. I mean railroads have only been doing it for 200 years, so why should we expect it to work for Metro?

UA is being asked to suspend AMS from IAD for August. Crazy that Schiphol is still such a mess.

graham697 wrote:

UA is being asked to suspend AMS from IAD for August. Crazy that Schiphol is still such a mess.

AMS was pulled by UA from IAD for 7/6/2022 to 7/31/2022. If the route suspension is extended, then it is likely UA's decision. AMS wasn't requiring airlines to suspend specific services, they were requiring them to cap capacity. UA opted to cut IAD to meet that cap, likely to route those pax over EWR.

atcsundevil wrote:

graham697 wrote:

UA is being asked to suspend AMS from IAD for August. Crazy that Schiphol is still such a mess.

AMS was pulled by UA from IAD for 7/6/2022 to 7/31/2022. If the route suspension is extended, then it is likely UA's decision. AMS wasn't requiring airlines to suspend specific services, they were requiring them to cap capacity. UA opted to cut IAD to meet that cap, likely to route those pax over EWR.

Ah yeah, the suspension was extended - just got an email for my flight in early August. As you predicted, routing us through EWR. Rebooked on KLM using points instead.

atcsundevil wrote:

SRT75 wrote:

Here here! Could not have said it better myself. I'll also note that money does not appear to be the problem here. Sure, Metro is always complaining that it doesn't have enough money, but it has very high fees (I'm talking rail here, not bus), and it got something like over $1 billion in CARES Act money. There are much bigger problems with Metro, and, so far, nobody has developed a fix for those problems.

Not to mention the annual funding they get from DC/VA/MD that started a few years ago, which was something they'd been begging for since the system opened.

A lot of what is wrong with WMATA today is essentially stemmed from the aftermath of two big mistakes in WMATA's history:

1) The original planners of WMATA made a couple of key errors when planning the system. First, they overestimated the system's expected farebox recovery ratio. I can't find the exact table right now (it might have been the book "The Great Society Subway") but during planning, they had wrongly estimated a farebox recovery ratio of almost 100%, which is something that no rail system outside of Asia has achieved. Second, they basically built the organization to essentially be a rail construction company. There was no SOP or blueprint on how to transition from being a construction company to a rail maintenance company once construction of the initial alignment was complete. During planning, the agency literally thought that some elements of the system were essentially perennial, and the suggestion of having a preventative maintenance was an afterthought.

2) Once the adopted regional system was complete with the final construction on the Green Line segments in the 1990s, they essentially purged their entire rail planning and engineering team...the entire department was let go. With the purge, countless of experienced, tenured professionals who had the functional, institutional knowledge of how the system works were gone overnight. WMATA can rely on "consultants" all they want these days for the same planning/engineering work, but they haven't got any of that institutional knowledge that those internal teams once brought to the table.

Granted, none of these reasons explain the 7000-series train fiasco, why the Silver Line to IAD is chronically delayed, why ATO still hasn't returned, etc.

USAirALB wrote:

Noreastshuttle wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

This.

There's also very few Express trains to BWI as it is, and none that run on the weekends.

There's only two Express trains in the morning to BWI (departing Union at 6:30a and 7:50a). In the evening, there are two "super Express" trains (trains that make no stops between Union and BWI) that depart at both 4:17P and 5:18P...I believed they are marked as "BWI Express" on Union Station monitors.

The point is that the vast majority of BWI passengers that use MARC are stuck on local trains that take as long as 39 minutes. Once you factor in the shuttle ride of 15 minutes, (say 5 minutes to wait for the shuttle and 10 minute ride), and the Red Line ride to Union, most people will find it faster to reach Dulles on the Silver Line versus MARC to BWI, unless you happen to be coming from a destination that is on the Red Line.

I would be curious to see whether people who actually live in DC have a preference for IAD or BWI if they can't fly from DCA. In my circle (of which I am the only individual who has any interest in aviation), most people accept going out to Dulles, just like people in NYC accept having to go to JFK to fly internationally/transcon. Whenever I mention I have to fly from BWI, they scoff at it. I'm willing to bet that most people would prefer IAD over BWI.

Live in DC and I would travel to IAD on the new Silver Line extension rather than going to BWI any day.

ElroyJetson wrote:

I am originally from Richmond and I find the comments bitching about the Metro interesting. I think the DC Metro is overall very nice. I have parked many times in Springfield and taken the Metro to Nationals games or elsewhere in DC. It is relatively cheap, clean, and hassle free. It beats the hell out of driving all the way into the city.

I have been on subway systems around the world. New York? Please. London? Rome and Paris are okay. I guess the comments to me seem a bit spoiled and naive. But maybe if I took it everyday I'd feel differently. I don't know. Just my .02 cents.

I realize my limited experience with the DC Metro is also strictly anecdotal, but my experience has been the opposite of yours. I also use the Metro when visiting DC once every couple of years. In all my visits over the past 15 years, the Metro has successfully gotten me where I needed to go exactly once. When my DMV friends all complain about the Metro on social media, I don't doubt a word they say.

vatveng wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

I am originally from Richmond and I find the comments bitching about the Metro interesting. I think the DC Metro is overall very nice. I have parked many times in Springfield and taken the Metro to Nationals games or elsewhere in DC. It is relatively cheap, clean, and hassle free. It beats the hell out of driving all the way into the city.

I have been on subway systems around the world. New York? Please. London? Rome and Paris are okay. I guess the comments to me seem a bit spoiled and naive. But maybe if I took it everyday I'd feel differently. I don't know. Just my .02 cents.

I realize my limited experience with the DC Metro is also strictly anecdotal, but my experience has been the opposite of yours. I also use the Metro when visiting DC once every couple of years. In all my visits over the past 15 years, the Metro has successfully gotten me where I needed to go exactly once. When my DMV friends all complain about the Metro on social media, I don't doubt a word they say.

Too bad. I have used the Metro dozens of times and never had a problem. I can't say the same about New York. But I do not doubt the locals, particularly the problems mentioned in the last few years. From the early 2000's until about 2013 I would go to DC about once a month for business or pleasure. Again, never a problem. But from what atcsundevil said the problems have been much more recent, and I have no reason to doubt him.

ElroyJetson wrote:

Too bad. I have used the Metro dozens of times and never had a problem. I can't say the same about New York. But I do not doubt the locals, particularly the problems mentioned in the last few years. From the early 2000's until about 2013 I would go to DC about once a month for business or pleasure. Again, never a problem. But from what atcsundevil said the problems have been much more recent, and I have no reason to doubt him.

That's why people are so disappointed. I grew up in DC in the 80s and 90s, and Metro was always so reliable and dependable. Everything was easy to use, and it always seemed like things ran as they should. Everything changed about ten years ago. The downward slide started with a few high profile accidents, then they scaled back hours, then service became progressively more unreliable, then it was more scandals and high profile incidents until we've regressed to where we are now — truly at an all-time low. I think everyone hopes that things can recover to where they were, but it's hard to see how. Unfortunately it's a microcasm of the infrastructure issues in this country. Opening the extension to IAD is a good start to building a more complete system, but there is such a long way to go to move forward.

atcsundevil wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Too bad. I have used the Metro dozens of times and never had a problem. I can't say the same about New York. But I do not doubt the locals, particularly the problems mentioned in the last few years. From the early 2000's until about 2013 I would go to DC about once a month for business or pleasure. Again, never a problem. But from what atcsundevil said the problems have been much more recent, and I have no reason to doubt him.

That's why people are so disappointed. I grew up in DC in the 80s and 90s, and Metro was always so reliable and dependable. Everything was easy to use, and it always seemed like things ran as they should. Everything changed about ten years ago. The downward slide started with a few high profile accidents, then they scaled back hours, then service became progressively more unreliable, then it was more scandals and high profile incidents until we've regressed to where we are now — truly at an all-time low. I think everyone hopes that things can recover to where they were, but it's hard to see how. Unfortunately it's a microcasm of the infrastructure issues in this country. Opening the extension to IAD is a good start to building a more complete system, but there is such a long way to go to move forward.

I agree it's been a mess for a long time (I lived through Safe Track and Back to Good), but I think people would have a different opinion if the 7000 series cars hadn't been built with the wheel issue. I don't put that one on WMATA. The whole reason they ordered all of those cars was to simplify the fleet and eliminate problem cars. For awhile, it looked like it was the right move.