Didn’t see this one coming! Delta to resume IAD-LGA on November 1st https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220911-dlnw22lgaiad

Hammmmmmer wrote:

Didn’t see this one coming! Delta to resume IAD-LGA on November 1st https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220911-dlnw22lgaiad

*Nov 10th

lawair wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

By contrast, the schedules at BWI and DCA, respectively, at the time were:

ORD: 4x ERJ
DFW: 4x S80, 1x 738, 2x 752
MIA: 3x 752
JFK: 1x ERJ
SJU: 1x 752
STL: 3x ERJ
=19 daily flights (I'm surprised how 752 heavy BWI was)

I was always surprised by how 757-heavy BWI was back in those days. All the majors flew them regularly at some point. DL and US obviously, but also HP, TW, AA, UA, NW, and even CO. Then they also had FI. And UA and DL were also flying 763s into BWI (UA a few years earlier, alongside DC 10s).

AA does frequently fly 321s everyday to BWI today but it's not the same

It appears as if DL and UA both continued to regularly operate the 763 until the late 2000s. DL might have continued to operate the type into BWI after that (possibly as an equipment sub during peak times), and IIRC they recently just operated a one-off 763 flight to ATL a couple months back. I wonder if UA still possesses the ground equipment to operated widebodies in BWI.

Going through old timetables online, I was surprised to see CO even ran the 753 to BWI...to CLE of all places! It looks like the 752s frequented BWI-IAH up until the late 2000s.

Of course there was US, who would frequently run 752s on BWI-PHL, even up until the early 2010s IIRC. At 90 miles, BWI-PHL had to one of the shortest 752 flights in the continental US!

Back to UA, I've often wondered how they holistically view the BWI station as part of their network. IIRC, it's a WAS co-terminal for them in terms of staffing, and WAS based crews may have trips that start and end in BWI. UA had a RCC for decades...going back to when BWI was the primary jet airport for the DMV. I think the clubroom closed in 2008 or so.

One thing that shocks me is how UA has maintained LAX-BWI over the years, long after they chopped their other LAX-Midwest/East Coast non-hub flights...ATL/MSY/DFW/PHL/PIT are all gone, but BWI remains. Outside of MCO/BOS/JFK, BWI is the only non-hub city to see year-round non-stop service from LAX on UA.

Speedy752 wrote:

ahj2000 wrote:

Since people seem to be getting their Silver Line news from this thread… “Simulated Service” begins Oct 3 and runs to the 17th. Hiring is complete. That means that we should have WMATA approve the line and start service to Dulles and Ashburn by “fall”…most likely late October/early November from what I heard from a Metro employee at L’Enfant the other day.
Gain a few stations, lose a few stations on DC this fall.

https://www.ffxnow.com/2022/09/08/simul ... uncertain/

New to the area, so this will be operating presumably by year end? I’ve never used Dulles because it felt far away from DC when traveling and now I use DCA because I can Metro to it. I’d love to have the flight options of a larger city accessible by train, I just didn’t know this was close to completion

Welcome!

FWIW, Dulles is quite easy to get to by public transit even without the train being open yet. The 5A Metrobus runs every hour or so from both L'Enfant and Rosslyn directly to the Main Terminal building. Travel time from Rosslyn is a little over 40 minutes.

I live smack dab at the crossroads of Dupont Circle, Adams Morgan, and the U Street Corridor, and I can make it to DCA via transit in less than 25 minutes or so. While I really enjoy that convenience, I actually prefer to fly out of Dulles...the Main Terminal building is beautiful, it's fun seeing all of the foreign tails, and Concourse A/B is easily one of the nicest concourses in the US...clean, efficient, and exceptionally quiet...there's hardly anyone in the place. Plus, if you have a credit card that has Priority Pass, you have several lounges at your disposal. The TK Lounge and the AF/KL lounge are among the nicest in the PP network IMO.

But yes, it is quite close to completion. Construction is essentially done, there are just a few chapters between WMATA and MWAA that need to be closed.

WMATA initially said in late July that they had hoped for the line to be open by Halloween, but I don't think that's possible at this point sadly. Once simulated service is complete, the open construction chapters are closed, WMATA still needs to receive approval from the WMSC and the FTA to start revenue service on the line, and that could take weeks.

Best case scenario, I foresee an opening date of the weekend of November 5th. Worse case scenario, I foresee an opening anywhere between the first weekend in December and the first weekend in January.

Hammmmmmer wrote:

Didn’t see this one coming! Delta to resume IAD-LGA on November 1st https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220911-dlnw22lgaiad

Definitely some slot squatting going on here.

N292UX wrote:

Hammmmmmer wrote:

Didn’t see this one coming! Delta to resume IAD-LGA on November 1st https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220911-dlnw22lgaiad

Definitely some slot squatting going on here.

Probably, but it's far less egregious than running 10 daily flights from Philly.

USAirALB wrote:

Back to UA, I've often wondered how they holistically view the BWI station as part of their network. IIRC, it's a WAS co-terminal for them in terms of staffing, and WAS based crews may have trips that start and end in BWI.

This is correct. United crews based on WAS may have trips that start at IAD, DCA, and BWI.

atcsundevil wrote:

N292UX wrote:

Hammmmmmer wrote:

Didn’t see this one coming! Delta to resume IAD-LGA on November 1st https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220911-dlnw22lgaiad

Definitely some slot squatting going on here.

Probably, but it's far less egregious than running 10 daily flights from Philly.

I think there may be a fairly significant and newly-moved corporate contract driving this one.

IADCA wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

N292UX wrote:

Definitely some slot squatting going on here.

Probably, but it's far less egregious than running 10 daily flights from Philly.

I think there may be a fairly significant and newly-moved corporate contract driving this one.

That would make more sense than slot squatting.

Getting to DCA from western Fairfax or Loudoun can be a PIA during rush hour, and if I worked for a large company in that part of NOVA, I'd much rather use IAD. Contrary to what DC folks think, IAD is convenient for some people lol.

ahj2000 wrote:

Since people seem to be getting their Silver Line news from this thread… “Simulated Service” begins Oct 3 and runs to the 17th. Hiring is complete. That means that we should have WMATA approve the line and start service to Dulles and Ashburn by “fall”…most likely late October/early November from what I heard from a Metro employee at L’Enfant the other day.
Gain a few stations, lose a few stations on DC this fall.

https://www.ffxnow.com/2022/09/08/simul ... uncertain/

The sooner, the better. That will make getting to Dulles a breeze for me.

IADCA wrote:

jplatts wrote:

BWIAirport wrote:

Realistically BWI is likely done adding TATL routes for a couple years after landing both Play and Icelandair to KEF for 2022.

....

It is clear from the distances above that the majority of Americans who are flying into NRT are going to destinations that are further from the airport, whereas most Americans who are flying domestically within the contiguous U.S. are going to destinations that are closer to the airport.

...Which is why people prefer to fly to HND whenever possible.

I seriously don't get the point of your post. Think of DC as being a clock. Then draw a line 12-6, right through the Capitol. Most of the money (business and personal) is between 6 and 12, and the proportion is even higher for Asia destined traffic, both business and personal. Now Where is IAD located? Where is BWI?

BWI gets DC passengers primarily because of cost. It is convenient for many of the more budget-sensitive suburbs and is convenient enough to downtown that people can also use it for visiting DC itself. But it loses badly to DCA on the latter. None of this is a bad thing, but it's in exactly the wrong place to be useful for Asia (and specifically Japan) centric traffic to/from the DC area.

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

zakuivcustom wrote:

IADCA wrote:

jplatts wrote:

....

It is clear from the distances above that the majority of Americans who are flying into NRT are going to destinations that are further from the airport, whereas most Americans who are flying domestically within the contiguous U.S. are going to destinations that are closer to the airport.

...Which is why people prefer to fly to HND whenever possible.

I seriously don't get the point of your post. Think of DC as being a clock. Then draw a line 12-6, right through the Capitol. Most of the money (business and personal) is between 6 and 12, and the proportion is even higher for Asia destined traffic, both business and personal. Now Where is IAD located? Where is BWI?

BWI gets DC passengers primarily because of cost. It is convenient for many of the more budget-sensitive suburbs and is convenient enough to downtown that people can also use it for visiting DC itself. But it loses badly to DCA on the latter. None of this is a bad thing, but it's in exactly the wrong place to be useful for Asia (and specifically Japan) centric traffic to/from the DC area.

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

Isn't UA opening IAD-HND next month? I know I've done IAD-NRT and back on their metal (the old 2-4-2 business on a 772) in the fairly recent past pre-pandemic.

But yeah. DC is not any of the major West Coast cities or NYC in terms of Asia traffic.

IADCA wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

IADCA wrote:

...Which is why people prefer to fly to HND whenever possible.

I seriously don't get the point of your post. Think of DC as being a clock. Then draw a line 12-6, right through the Capitol. Most of the money (business and personal) is between 6 and 12, and the proportion is even higher for Asia destined traffic, both business and personal. Now Where is IAD located? Where is BWI?

BWI gets DC passengers primarily because of cost. It is convenient for many of the more budget-sensitive suburbs and is convenient enough to downtown that people can also use it for visiting DC itself. But it loses badly to DCA on the latter. None of this is a bad thing, but it's in exactly the wrong place to be useful for Asia (and specifically Japan) centric traffic to/from the DC area.

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

Isn't UA opening IAD-HND next month? I know I've done IAD-NRT and back on their metal (the old 2-4-2 business on a 772) in the fairly recent past pre-pandemic.

But yeah. DC is not any of the major West Coast cities or NYC in terms of Asia traffic.

UA was daily to Tokyo for as long as I can remember, in addition to the NH flight.. They also had a daily PEK flight pre COVID. But DC isn't the biggest market to East Asia.. It might even be behind Boston as the 2nd biggest gateway on the East Coast, after the NYC area of course. I'm surprised EVA Air never tried since they are a Star member.. Maybe once Asia fully opens.

zakuivcustom wrote:

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

UA operated IAD-NRT for years. The shift to HND was scheduled for March 2020. This article is from August 2019:

"United already services Tokyo's other airport, Narita International Airport, with several flights each week, although the addition of the Haneda flights will mean that United will no longer fly direct from Dulles into Narita; instead, its nonstops from this region will go to Haneda."
https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/ ... rport.html

I don't think any of us reasonable folks were overestimating flights to East Asia. Pre covid, there were 6-7 daily flights to East Asia, and that was probably about right. I suspect it'll take another few years to get back to that point.

zakuivcustom wrote:

UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH)

UA has flown IAD-TYO since 2006, when they shifted the JFK-NRT service to Dulles.

Speedy752 wrote:

ahj2000 wrote:

Since people seem to be getting their Silver Line news from this thread… “Simulated Service” begins Oct 3 and runs to the 17th. Hiring is complete. That means that we should have WMATA approve the line and start service to Dulles and Ashburn by “fall”…most likely late October/early November from what I heard from a Metro employee at L’Enfant the other day.
Gain a few stations, lose a few stations on DC this fall.

https://www.ffxnow.com/2022/09/08/simul ... uncertain/

New to the area, so this will be operating presumably by year end? I’ve never used Dulles because it felt far away from DC when traveling and now I use DCA because I can Metro to it. I’d love to have the flight options of a larger city accessible by train, I just didn’t know this was close to completion

The 5A was mentioned, and that is great, but the shuttle is also an option from Wiehle station at the current end of the Silver Line. It’s a bit pricier-5$ on the Metro ticket and a bit more frequent.
The Silver Line will be operating by EOY (fingers crossed) so both of these will be gone.

atcsundevil wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

UA operated IAD-NRT for years. The shift to HND was scheduled for March 2020. This article is from August 2019:

"United already services Tokyo's other airport, Narita International Airport, with several flights each week, although the addition of the Haneda flights will mean that United will no longer fly direct from Dulles into Narita; instead, its nonstops from this region will go to Haneda."
https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/ ... rport.html

I don't think any of us reasonable folks were overestimating flights to East Asia. Pre covid, there were 6-7 daily flights to East Asia, and that was probably about right. I suspect it'll take another few years to get back to that point.

I stand corrected...I did remembered UA flying to Tokyo pre-virus but just couldn't find anything.

My response about demands to East Asia was mainly referring to the suggestion of flights to East Asia from BWI - when even IAD doesn't exactly have that many East Asia flights even compared to BOS.

zakuivcustom wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

UA operated IAD-NRT for years. The shift to HND was scheduled for March 2020. This article is from August 2019:

"United already services Tokyo's other airport, Narita International Airport, with several flights each week, although the addition of the Haneda flights will mean that United will no longer fly direct from Dulles into Narita; instead, its nonstops from this region will go to Haneda."
https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/ ... rport.html

I don't think any of us reasonable folks were overestimating flights to East Asia. Pre covid, there were 6-7 daily flights to East Asia, and that was probably about right. I suspect it'll take another few years to get back to that point.

I stand corrected...I did remembered UA flying to Tokyo pre-virus but just couldn't find anything.

My response about demands to East Asia was mainly referring to the suggestion of flights to East Asia from BWI - when even IAD doesn't exactly have that many East Asia flights even compared to BOS.

Asia to BWI is a fairly foolish idea. No international airline making a serious go of the DC market would serve anything other than IAD. BWI can pick up European LCC service successfully, and there's enough of a market to the UK to make it a successful station for BA, but that's about it.

zakuivcustom wrote:

IADCA wrote:

jplatts wrote:

....

It is clear from the distances above that the majority of Americans who are flying into NRT are going to destinations that are further from the airport, whereas most Americans who are flying domestically within the contiguous U.S. are going to destinations that are closer to the airport.

...Which is why people prefer to fly to HND whenever possible.

I seriously don't get the point of your post. Think of DC as being a clock. Then draw a line 12-6, right through the Capitol. Most of the money (business and personal) is between 6 and 12, and the proportion is even higher for Asia destined traffic, both business and personal. Now Where is IAD located? Where is BWI?

BWI gets DC passengers primarily because of cost. It is convenient for many of the more budget-sensitive suburbs and is convenient enough to downtown that people can also use it for visiting DC itself. But it loses badly to DCA on the latter. None of this is a bad thing, but it's in exactly the wrong place to be useful for Asia (and specifically Japan) centric traffic to/from the DC area.

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

Cathay Pacific closed their IAD station. No longer suspended. I believe the same happened to the SEA station as well.

iadbudd wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

IADCA wrote:

...Which is why people prefer to fly to HND whenever possible.

I seriously don't get the point of your post. Think of DC as being a clock. Then draw a line 12-6, right through the Capitol. Most of the money (business and personal) is between 6 and 12, and the proportion is even higher for Asia destined traffic, both business and personal. Now Where is IAD located? Where is BWI?

BWI gets DC passengers primarily because of cost. It is convenient for many of the more budget-sensitive suburbs and is convenient enough to downtown that people can also use it for visiting DC itself. But it loses badly to DCA on the latter. None of this is a bad thing, but it's in exactly the wrong place to be useful for Asia (and specifically Japan) centric traffic to/from the DC area.

And quite frankly people seems to be overestimating the amount of DC area (throw in Baltimore area as well) to East Asia traffic. Even before the pandemic (which mess up East Asia demands even further) UA doesn't have their own flight to Tokyo (that's NH), there's Korean Air to ICN but they fly that route alone. CA/UA to PEK but you don't have flights to PVG. Then there's that (now suspended and god knows if it'll ever restart) CX flight to HKG, but that only flew for like 2 years. No JL, no MU/CZ/other Chinese carriers, no CI/BR.

And lots of ethnic Korean along with some ethnic Chinese in Howard County that's like 30mins max (if even that) to BWI, doesn't mean they don't just go to IAD...

Cathay Pacific closed their IAD station. No longer suspended. I believe the same happened to the SEA station as well.

You're correct about CX. In addition to SEA and IAD they also cut EWR. Basically they cut the more recent long haul routes (In Europe they cut BRU, DUB, and LGW...all 3 are relatively recent) that was started circa 2017-2018 or so.

United is postponing the relaunch of both Tokyo and Beijing service from IAD until March 2023.

Obviously PEK isn't surprising, but HND somewhat is especially how close-in to the resumption date we were...bookings must have been poor. Makes sense though imo, and everyone likely can easily be re-accommodated onto NH, who re-starts daily service late October.

I wonder if IAD-PEK will ever fly again, given China's stance on Covid and the recent deterioration of US/China relations. I would be interested to know the historic performance of the route...wasn't it a 744 at one point in the late 2000s?

USAirALB wrote:

United is postponing the relaunch of both Tokyo and Beijing service from IAD until March 2023.

Obviously PEK isn't surprising, but HND somewhat is especially how close-in to the resumption date we were...bookings must have been poor. Makes sense though imo, and everyone likely can easily be re-accommodated onto NH, who re-starts daily service late October.

I wonder if IAD-PEK will ever fly again, given China's stance on Covid and the recent deterioration of US/China relations. I would be interested to know the historic performance of the route...wasn't it a 744 at one point in the late 2000s?

I could be wrong but I think PEK was always 777.. I remember when it launched. But IAD had a good amount of 747s at one point, so it's possible they were subbed on the route occasionally..

DCA350 wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

United is postponing the relaunch of both Tokyo and Beijing service from IAD until March 2023.

Obviously PEK isn't surprising, but HND somewhat is especially how close-in to the resumption date we were...bookings must have been poor. Makes sense though imo, and everyone likely can easily be re-accommodated onto NH, who re-starts daily service late October.

I wonder if IAD-PEK will ever fly again, given China's stance on Covid and the recent deterioration of US/China relations. I would be interested to know the historic performance of the route...wasn't it a 744 at one point in the late 2000s?

I could be wrong but I think PEK was always 777.. I remember when it launched. But IAD had a good amount of 747s at one point, so it's possible they were subbed on the route occasionally..

I think it was mostly a 777 (and IIRC was launched as a 777). It might have been a 744 during the 2008 Summer Olympics maybe?

USAirALB wrote:

DCA350 wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

United is postponing the relaunch of both Tokyo and Beijing service from IAD until March 2023.

Obviously PEK isn't surprising, but HND somewhat is especially how close-in to the resumption date we were...bookings must have been poor. Makes sense though imo, and everyone likely can easily be re-accommodated onto NH, who re-starts daily service late October.

I wonder if IAD-PEK will ever fly again, given China's stance on Covid and the recent deterioration of US/China relations. I would be interested to know the historic performance of the route...wasn't it a 744 at one point in the late 2000s?

I could be wrong but I think PEK was always 777.. I remember when it launched. But IAD had a good amount of 747s at one point, so it's possible they were subbed on the route occasionally..

I think it was mostly a 777 (and IIRC was launched as a 777). It might have been a 744 during the 2008 Summer Olympics maybe?

IAD-PEK started on the 744, I flew it roundtrip in July 2008 just a few months after its spring 2008 launch…it stayed as a 744 for a bit beyond 2008 but has/had been a 777 for the majority of the time since launching.

USAirALB wrote:

United is postponing the relaunch of both Tokyo and Beijing service from IAD until March 2023.

Obviously PEK isn't surprising, but HND somewhat is especially how close-in to the resumption date we were...bookings must have been poor. Makes sense though imo, and everyone likely can easily be re-accommodated onto NH, who re-starts daily service late October.

I wonder if IAD-PEK will ever fly again, given China's stance on Covid and the recent deterioration of US/China relations. I would be interested to know the historic performance of the route...wasn't it a 744 at one point in the late 2000s?

I believe travel to Japan is still severely restricted, so delaying HND isn't a surprise at all.

Perhaps just excited as a 757 fan and Delta flyer, but starting 1/9/2022 all 8 flights daily BWI-ATL will be 757s vs the 739 they have mostly been.

757 has not really been on Delta's flights for BWI or DC area in general aside from a few DCA flights.

Just curious (Long time lurker, sometime poster)

Why doesn’t Delta have some sort of hub in the DC area? After all, AA has DCA and United has IAD.

Kevinflyer wrote:

Just curious (Long time lurker, sometime poster)

Why doesn’t Delta have some sort of hub in the DC area? After all, AA has DCA and United has IAD.

Great question - market is largely served well by legacies and LCCs of all stripes between the three airports. Delta had a larger station at DCA post-NW merger, but eventually was able to get the DOT to sign off on the big slot swap between LGA/DCA with pmUS. There was a period they were going head to head with US and I moved a bunch of my flying to them. I think it was mostly them trying to get US to make more concessions which worked.

DL has bidded and was awarded some extra slots for 'unique destinations' from DCA, so they do some interesting flying mostly connection though.

Keith2004 wrote:

Perhaps just excited as a 757 fan and Delta flyer, but starting 1/9/2022 all 8 flights daily BWI-ATL will be 757s vs the 739 they have mostly been.

757 has not really been on Delta's flights for BWI or DC area in general aside from a few DCA flights.

Either Delta has tremendous load factors in the region or they have no where else to send them.. They are running all 757s on RIC and ORF to ATL also.. Quite impressive

Speedy752 wrote:

New to the area, so this will be operating presumably by year end? I’ve never used Dulles because it felt far away from DC when traveling and now I use DCA because I can Metro to it. I’d love to have the flight options of a larger city accessible by train, I just didn’t know this was close to completion

It has actually been complete (construction) for at least two years. My wife and I took a Lockdown-induced belated anniversary trip back in September of 2020, and we parked in Garage 1, but in order to get to the main terminal, you have pass right through the exit of the metro station, and it was locked up tight, but completely finished. If I recall, the moving walkways were working, so it's actually pretty easy to get from the station to the terminal, which is a bit of a walk. I got temporarily relocated to our office in Reston in March 2020 (which is much much closer to home) in order to meet COVID occupancy regulations in our DC office, and my office overlooked the Toll Road and the new Metro line. I saw them doing nothing but daily testing of the trains for the better part of two years. Rumor around here is that it was either a paperwork issue or complaints from the NIMBY Reston crowd that was holding it up from opening, so take that for what it's worth. Anyone who drives 267 beyond Wiehle Ave has seen Silver Line extension stations sitting there completely finished and locked up tight.

DCA350 wrote:

Keith2004 wrote:

Perhaps just excited as a 757 fan and Delta flyer, but starting 1/9/2022 all 8 flights daily BWI-ATL will be 757s vs the 739 they have mostly been.

757 has not really been on Delta's flights for BWI or DC area in general aside from a few DCA flights.

Either Delta has tremendous load factors in the region or they have no where else to send them.. They are running all 757s on RIC and ORF to ATL also.. Quite impressive

I think it is a mix of both, for DC area at least.
In the delta fleet thread there is talk of 757s being largely moved to shorter routes because of the fuel efficiency of 757 vs newer planes.

As to capacity, I assume DMV just has that much demand. 24 flights a day to ATL!
BWI -ATL - 8 Daily 757
DCA -ATL - 8 Daily (7× a320 and 1× 757)
IAD -ATL - 8 Daily (6×717 and 2× a320)

Just pulled from a random day in January 2023, interesting to see BWI with the most capacity...wonder if it is because no other US3 is hubbed at BWI....certainly no premium cabin competition (20 FC seats at BWI vs 12 and 16 at IAD/DCA)

Kevinflyer wrote:

Why doesn’t Delta have some sort of hub in the DC area? After all, AA has DCA and United has IAD.

There was never an appropriate market opportunity or need. Post-deregulation, Piedmont started building a hub at BWI which was continued in a somewhat half-hearted way by USAir post-merger. Southwest kicked US out of their BWI hub in a process that started in the mid-1990s. US was historically the largest slotholder at DCA and DL would never have been able to pick up enough slots to effectively challenge them. And IAD isn't a great hub since it competes fairly poorly with DCA for travel within-perimeter; it doesn't help that MWAA mismanagement has led to very high costs at Washington Mirabel. Plus UA established a hub at Dulles in the mid-1980s.

D.C. really isn't large enough for four airline hubs.

graham697 wrote:

Kevinflyer wrote:

Just curious (Long time lurker, sometime poster)

Why doesn’t Delta have some sort of hub in the DC area? After all, AA has DCA and United has IAD.

Great question - market is largely served well by legacies and LCCs of all stripes between the three airports. Delta had a larger station at DCA post-NW merger, but eventually was able to get the DOT to sign off on the big slot swap between LGA/DCA with pmUS. There was a period they were going head to head with US and I moved a bunch of my flying to them. I think it was mostly them trying to get US to make more concessions which worked.

DL has bidded and was awarded some extra slots for 'unique destinations' from DCA, so they do some interesting flying mostly connection though.

After the NW merger, Delta made the strategic choice to build up NYC. Which makes sense, tbh. They were never going to be able to obtain a large slot portfolio at DCA to compete with even US at the time, and adding a hub in the DC area didn’t make a lot of sense given the desire to take on NYC. So, instead focus on O&D.

That said, even after the a lot swap, Delta was still pumping through just as many passengers as they had before - they’ve managed it very effectively.

They’ve also made marketing pushes in the region. They took on a prominent sponsorship with the Nationals in 2016 (‘‘twas a 5 year deal, but must’ve been extended).

All things considered, it’s a pretty strong position for a non-hub.

Does anyone know when DL stopped using the 757 to ATL from DCA I still see the 757 to SLC but that is all?

b777900 wrote:

Does anyone know when DL stopped using the 757 to ATL from DCA I still see the 757 to SLC but that is all?

They still use it for one of the 8 Daily DCA-ATL, I posted a few post up. They use a320 mostly for the other 7 flights.
Maybe they will eventually transition DCA to 757 the way they are at BWI.

Keith2004 wrote:

DCA350 wrote:

Keith2004 wrote:

Perhaps just excited as a 757 fan and Delta flyer, but starting 1/9/2022 all 8 flights daily BWI-ATL will be 757s vs the 739 they have mostly been.

757 has not really been on Delta's flights for BWI or DC area in general aside from a few DCA flights.

Either Delta has tremendous load factors in the region or they have no where else to send them.. They are running all 757s on RIC and ORF to ATL also.. Quite impressive

I think it is a mix of both, for DC area at least.
In the delta fleet thread there is talk of 757s being largely moved to shorter routes because of the fuel efficiency of 757 vs newer planes.

As to capacity, I assume DMV just has that much demand. 24 flights a day to ATL!
BWI -ATL - 8 Daily 757
DCA -ATL - 8 Daily (7× a320 and 1× 757)
IAD -ATL - 8 Daily (6×717 and 2× a320)

Just pulled from a random day in January 2023, interesting to see BWI with the most capacity...wonder if it is because no other US3 is hubbed at BWI....certainly no premium cabin competition (20 FC seats at BWI vs 12 and 16 at IAD/DCA)

You're certainly right about the premium cabin point, for a regular economy traveler they can choose from WN, F9, NK, and DL on BWI-ATL. So with that in mind, I'm not sure it's purely a competition thing.
Non-DL flights from the DMV to ATL (just pulled from today for example's sake)
IAD-ATL-------F/C/Y-------|-----DCA-ATL---------F/C/Y-----|--BWI-ATL------------------------------F/C/Y (counting big ULCC seats as C)
UA 73G x2----24/0/228--|------WN 73G x4-----0/0/572---|--WN 73G x3--------------------------0/0/429
UA 319 x1-----12/0/114--|------AA E75 x4------48/0/256-|---WN 738 x1---------------------------0/0/175
UA E75 x2-----24/0/116--|-----AA CRJ9 x1-----9/0/67----|---NK x3 (1 each 319, 320, 321)---0/26/529
WN 3M8 x1----0/ 0/175--|-----AA E70 x1-------8/0/72----|---F9 20N x1-----------------------------0/36/132
Total seats-----60/0/633-|-------------------------65/0/967--|----------------------------------------------0/62/1,265

So yes, clearly an absence of a first class product, certainly heavy Y competition though. In my experience, just about every DL BWI-ATL flight that I've flown on has been packed. Never flown WN BWI-ATL.

BWIAirport wrote:

Keith2004 wrote:

DCA350 wrote:

Either Delta has tremendous load factors in the region or they have no where else to send them.. They are running all 757s on RIC and ORF to ATL also.. Quite impressive

I think it is a mix of both, for DC area at least.
In the delta fleet thread there is talk of 757s being largely moved to shorter routes because of the fuel efficiency of 757 vs newer planes.

As to capacity, I assume DMV just has that much demand. 24 flights a day to ATL!
BWI -ATL - 8 Daily 757
DCA -ATL - 8 Daily (7× a320 and 1× 757)
IAD -ATL - 8 Daily (6×717 and 2× a320)

Just pulled from a random day in January 2023, interesting to see BWI with the most capacity...wonder if it is because no other US3 is hubbed at BWI....certainly no premium cabin competition (20 FC seats at BWI vs 12 and 16 at IAD/DCA)

You're certainly right about the premium cabin point, for a regular economy traveler they can choose from WN, F9, NK, and DL on BWI-ATL. So with that in mind, I'm not sure it's purely a competition thing.
Non-DL flights from the DMV to ATL (just pulled from today for example's sake)
IAD-ATL-------F/C/Y-------|-----DCA-ATL---------F/C/Y-----|--BWI-ATL------------------------------F/C/Y (counting big ULCC seats as C)
UA 73G x2----24/0/228--|------WN 73G x4-----0/0/572---|--WN 73G x3--------------------------0/0/429
UA 319 x1-----12/0/114--|------AA E75 x4------48/0/256-|---WN 738 x1---------------------------0/0/175
UA E75 x2-----24/0/116--|-----AA CRJ9 x1-----9/0/67----|---NK x3 (1 each 319, 320, 321)---0/26/529
WN 3M8 x1----0/ 0/175--|-----AA E70 x1-------8/0/72----|---F9 20N x1-----------------------------0/36/132
Total seats-----60/0/633-|-------------------------65/0/967--|----------------------------------------------0/62/1,265

So yes, clearly an absence of a first class product, certainly heavy Y competition though. In my experience, just about every DL BWI-ATL flight that I've flown on has been packed. Never flown WN BWI-ATL.

Interesting data!
I fly BWI-ATL alot and I can concur on the packed planes.
Looks like across the all cabins, BWI handles the largest amount of ATL traffic for the area.
I know BWI is generally the busiest airport but not by the margin this one route would suggest.
I would also imagine alot of the non-Delta traffic is O&D.

All things considered, as of 14 November, Delta is still significantly larger in WAS than in the National Capital Region's peer metro areas:

Washington: 99 daily flights
DCA: SLC (1), LAX (1), ATL (11), DTW (5), MSP (5), CVG (3), RDU (3), BOS (8), LGA (12), JFK (5), OMA (1), LEX (1), MSN (1)=57 daily flights
IAD: DTW (4), MSP (3), SLC (1), SEA (2), JFK (3), LGA (4), ATL (6)=20 daily flights
BWI: ATL (9), SLC (1), DTW (3), MSP (3), JFK (3), BOS (3)=22 daily flights

Chicagoland: 51 daily flights
ORD: BOS (5), LGA (8), JFK (4), MSP (6), DTW (6), SLC (3), SEA (3), ATL (7)=42 daily flights
MDW: ATL (3), DTW (3), MSP (3)=9 daily flights

Bay Area: 63 daily flights
SFO: MSP (4), DTW (4), ATL (7), JFK (5), BOS (2), LAX (7), SEA (5), SLC (5)=39 daily flights
SJC: SLC (5), SEA (4), LAX (5), ATL (2), MSP (1)-17 daily flights
OAK: LAX (3), SLC (4)=7 daily flights

Metroplex: 35 daily flights
DFW: ATL (7), SLC (4), JFK (2), LGA (5), BOS (2), DTW (4), MSP (4), LAX (2)=30 daily flights
DAL: ATL (5)=5 daily flights

Houston:
IAH: LAX (2), ATL (7), LGA (4), SLC (3), MSP (4), DTW (4)=24 daily flights
HOU: ATL (3)=3 daily flights

As I have said before a couple of weeks back, airlines can't be someone to everyone. AA lacks breadth on the West Coast, UA in the Southeast, and DL in Texas. WAS is one of those markets where DL has a pretty good market presence in, but simply lacks the scale and resources to compete with WN/BWI, AA/DCA, UA/IAD. It isn't possible for them to build up DCA due to the lack of slots. Building up BWI would be foolish given how low-yielding many routes are thanks to WN and NK. IAD's high costs coupled with the lack of terminal space would make a build up there unrealistic.

Even without a hub, they still provide an amazing level of frequency across all airports in the region, have a Shuttle product to NYC, and are the only carrier offering flatbed seats in the premium cabin on transcon from DCA.

I don't really see them expanding more from WAS in the future, outside of maybe an additional SLC flight to BWI or IAD, and possibly starting IAD-BOS and IAD-LAX.

graham697 wrote:

Kevinflyer wrote:

Just curious (Long time lurker, sometime poster)

Why doesn’t Delta have some sort of hub in the DC area? After all, AA has DCA and United has IAD.

Great question - market is largely served well by legacies and LCCs of all stripes between the three airports. Delta had a larger station at DCA post-NW merger, but eventually was able to get the DOT to sign off on the big slot swap between LGA/DCA with pmUS. There was a period they were going head to head with US and I moved a bunch of my flying to them. I think it was mostly them trying to get US to make more concessions which worked.

DL has bidded and was awarded some extra slots for 'unique destinations' from DCA, so they do some interesting flying mostly connection though.

I guess the extra slots are why Delta operates some non-hub to non-hub routes like Omaha to DCA, then?

I guess it makes sense for Delta not to focus on DC, considering all the effort they putting into BOS combined with other close-by hubs like ATL, DTW, and JFK, which can serve domestic and international traffic with fairly short layovers.

Kevinflyer wrote:

I guess the extra slots are why Delta operates some non-hub to non-hub routes like Omaha to DCA, then?

DL is operating DCA-LEX/MSN/OMA nonstop service using slot exemptions that cannot be used on other routes.

In addition, DL also has the GSA contracts for DCA-LEX/MSN through at least 9/30/2023.

IIRC, all three WAS airports registered mid-20s million passengers annually pre-pandemic. Industry wide, I think most projections see a return to pre-pandemic totals within three years or so. BWI seems to have come back the strongest so far, owing to its LCC and VFR focus. DCA awaits the return of business traffic, while IAD lags a bit due to its international exposure. My question to the group: which of the three airports do you think will be the first to hit 30 million passengers, and when?

Kevinflyer wrote:

graham697 wrote:

Kevinflyer wrote:

Just curious (Long time lurker, sometime poster)

Why doesn’t Delta have some sort of hub in the DC area? After all, AA has DCA and United has IAD.

Great question - market is largely served well by legacies and LCCs of all stripes between the three airports. Delta had a larger station at DCA post-NW merger, but eventually was able to get the DOT to sign off on the big slot swap between LGA/DCA with pmUS. There was a period they were going head to head with US and I moved a bunch of my flying to them. I think it was mostly them trying to get US to make more concessions which worked.

DL has bidded and was awarded some extra slots for 'unique destinations' from DCA, so they do some interesting flying mostly connection though.

I guess the extra slots are why Delta operates some non-hub to non-hub routes like Omaha to DCA, then?

I guess it makes sense for Delta not to focus on DC, considering all the effort they putting into BOS combined with other close-by hubs like ATL, DTW, and JFK, which can serve domestic and international traffic with fairly short layovers.

Before the LGA slot swap with US Air, DL had even more non-hub routes out of DCA. STL comes to mind.

To the earlier question regarding the 757’s, as the A321’s came into the fleet years ago they replaced the 757’s. The A320’s are a post Covid change. The A321’s are typically back during busier times. The 75S also flies DCA-LAX offering D1 service.

As a DCA-based DL flier it’s an extremely elite and premium heavy market. Things have been a mess over the past two years due to flight reductions, but it’s still a good operation. Plus the DCA SkyClub is one of my favorites.

Also, oddly, DL has started to route more connecting flights from DCA through LGA vs DTW, MSP, ATL.

LoudounHound wrote:

IIRC, all three WAS airports registered mid-20s million passengers annually pre-pandemic. Industry wide, I think most projections see a return to pre-pandemic totals within three years or so. BWI seems to have come back the strongest so far, owing to its LCC and VFR focus. DCA awaits the return of business traffic, while IAD lags a bit due to its international exposure. My question to the group: which of the three airports do you think will be the first to hit 30 million passengers, and when?

I’m not sure how DCA gets to 30-million with the slot restrictions. It’s still an RJ heavy hub for AA. I think BWI or IAD get there first.

DCA was just under 24million in 2019. Dulles just under 25.
https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... .10.20.pdf

dcaproducer wrote:

LoudounHound wrote:

IIRC, all three WAS airports registered mid-20s million passengers annually pre-pandemic. Industry wide, I think most projections see a return to pre-pandemic totals within three years or so. BWI seems to have come back the strongest so far, owing to its LCC and VFR focus. DCA awaits the return of business traffic, while IAD lags a bit due to its international exposure. My question to the group: which of the three airports do you think will be the first to hit 30 million passengers, and when?

I’m not sure how DCA gets to 30-million with the slot restrictions. It’s still an RJ heavy hub for AA. I think BWI or IAD get there first.

DCA was just under 24million in 2019. Dulles just under 25.
https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... .10.20.pdf

30 million would be tough, but AA's choice to upgauge everything that was 50 seaters to at least E17X/CR7 adds quite a bit of capacity, and there's also a fair bit of upgauging that could happen on the mainline side. Not that it necessarily happens, but a number of frequencies to other hubs are still A319 pretty regularly (and even some CR9 to CLT). Other carriers will also have some decisions to make on scope as well. What really makes it tough is how many slots are restricted to RJs.

Agree IAD or BWI probably gets there first.

Relevant to this conversation - MWAA board docs for this week’s meeting are now posted, including this very interesting air service development presentation:

https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... Update.pdf

DCA has basically recovered all their seats; interestingly AA is pushing more connecting passengers through than in 2019.

At IAD, they have detailed data on the overall recovery, sitting at about 90% of 2019 levels. Big shifts internationally, with increases in traffic to Africa and Latin America, but obviously Asia is way down. Domestically, UA is operating a similar number of international seats, but fewer domestic seats. United’s O/D passengers are still way down, but they’ve beefed up connecting passengers; and they have some data comparing IAD to other UA hubs.

LoudounHound wrote:

IIRC, all three WAS airports registered mid-20s million passengers annually pre-pandemic. Industry wide, I think most projections see a return to pre-pandemic totals within three years or so. BWI seems to have come back the strongest so far, owing to its LCC and VFR focus. DCA awaits the return of business traffic, while IAD lags a bit due to its international exposure. My question to the group: which of the three airports do you think will be the first to hit 30 million passengers, and when?

Based on where things were trending in 2019 and the airport that is recovering first, BWI. Especially if leisure keeps growing faster than business travel.
Strictly guessing with the when:

BWI - 2028
IAD - 2032
DCA - unlikely with slot restrictions

blockski wrote:

Relevant to this conversation - MWAA board docs for this week’s meeting are now posted, including this very interesting air service development presentation:

https://www.mwaa.com/sites/mwaa.com/fil ... Update.pdf

DCA has basically recovered all their seats; interestingly AA is pushing more connecting passengers through than in 2019.

At IAD, they have detailed data on the overall recovery, sitting at about 90% of 2019 levels. Big shifts internationally, with increases in traffic to Africa and Latin America, but obviously Asia is way down. Domestically, UA is operating a similar number of international seats, but fewer domestic seats. United’s O/D passengers are still way down, but they’ve beefed up connecting passengers; and they have some data comparing IAD to other UA hubs.

Africa, Latin America and the Middle East way above 2019 levels. Europe is at 92% of 2019 levels. Europe will probably be above 2019 numbers by Summer 2023. Perhaps with their new partnership with EK United will bring back IAD-DXB.

https://viewfromthewing.com/new-chase-s ... on-dulles/

Given that this says it's going to be a two-story lounge, I would expect this to go in the old Etihad lounge space on A.

It's fascinating how many credit card accessible lounges IAD has/will have, when an airport like ORD virtually has none other than a sole outpost in the international terminal. Then again, I guess that the only way international carriers can afford to have their own dedicated lounges at small outstations like IAD is by earning extra revenue by allowing PP (et al.) members to enter. I can't imagine Virgin's lounge at Dulles would be financially feasible without PP.

USAirALB wrote:

https://viewfromthewing.com/new-chase-sapphire-lounge-coming-to-washington-dulles/

Given that this says it's going to be a two-story lounge, I would expect this to go in the old Etihad lounge space on A.

It's fascinating how many credit card accessible lounges IAD has/will have, when an airport like ORD virtually has none other than a sole outpost in the international terminal. Then again, I guess that the only way international carriers can afford to have their own dedicated lounges at small outstations like IAD is by earning extra revenue by allowing PP (et al.) members to enter. I can't imagine Virgin's lounge at Dulles would be financially feasible without PP.

I don't know how the economics work on the back end (and this wouldn't apply to VS anyway), but it's no accident that a lot of the lounges at IAD are *A carriers, and access to them is pretty easy if you're a *A elite as they share across carriers. So the TK lounge, for example, is often full of SK, AV, TP, ET, and CM customers.

LoudounHound wrote:

IIRC, all three WAS airports registered mid-20s million passengers annually pre-pandemic. Industry wide, I think most projections see a return to pre-pandemic totals within three years or so. BWI seems to have come back the strongest so far, owing to its LCC and VFR focus. DCA awaits the return of business traffic, while IAD lags a bit due to its international exposure. My question to the group: which of the three airports do you think will be the first to hit 30 million passengers, and when?

I don’t think we see DCA ever get 30 million just due to how the limits imposed on it. AA would need to have a lot more mainline gates to upgauge more of their current flights along with probably upgauging their current mainline flights from A319s to A321s. On top of that, they’d also need some more slots to add more flights and destinations. And the perimeter rule doesn’t help either.

I think IAD is the first of the three to get to 30 million for a few reasons.
A. Fewer and fewer 50 seaters are being used by UA and they’re being upgauged to 70/76 seaters.
B. There’s also a lot more mainline being used on a bunch of domestic routes that UA has not used mainline on before. I suspect that trend will only grow as UA gets their hand on more mainline jets.
C. UA has mentioned several times the possibility of adding 1-2 more banks at the IAD hub which would likely add at least 100 additional daily flights. If that happens, it could be enough for IAD to hit 30 million.
D. There’s still growth coming on the international side. Several new carriers are launching IAD and UA is adding more transatlantic routes.

BWI has seemed a bit stagnant recently but I suspect WN will continue to grow there once their shortage is sorted out. Wouldn’t surprise me to see a few more international flights from there as well. They’ll eventually get to 30 million.

Does anyone know if they have released an exact date for Silver Line Phase 2? Everything online just says “Later in fall 2022.”