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ElPistolero
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue May 24, 2022 7:19 pm

ac190 wrote:
Clearing up the recent comments on why Westjet can't get them there by using other airlines and comepensation.


Very interesting details - thanks.

ac190 wrote:
WS has rebooking agreements with other airlines. Welcome to the industry standard... AC is a partner with them however there are rules. First off being, the entire journey has to be within Canada. Second being travel has to be day of.

If I am flying YYC - YYZ - LGA and my YYC-YYZ flight is cancelled/delayed, the CSA is not allowed to rebooking using Air Canada since it includes a trans-border (same for international) segment.

So that shuts down pretty much why they couldn't be rebooked on AC using that reservation. Now there have been instances of both AC & WJ employees not playing by the rules and rebooking anyways regardless of those two rules but you're risking it.


Amazing.

I won’t pretend to know if that represents a breathtaking lack of common sense and/or an abundance of pettiness on the part of either or both carriers, or, indeed, the regulators for not noticing or addressing it, but the fact that we could theoretically have someone fly for 20 hours from the other side of the world and get stuck in a transit hub in Canada for multiple days because the only available seats are on another airline and they got onto the plane outside Canada, do not flatter the intelligence or wit of whoever came up with these rules, or - for that matter - whoever thinks they’re acceptable.

Makes one wonder: where are the grown ups? :P. “Canadian aviation” really comes across as a clown show at times.

ac190 wrote:
WestJet's rebooking, a version of Sabre is pretty garbage so just going to add not surprised that they weren't able to be rebooked on a WJ connection/flight sooner. That and they don't overbook a flight or standby confirmed passengers complicates things.

Second being compensation. According to the news article there was an issue with a broken air conditioner on the aircraft. That automatically should've entitled them to a hotel and meal vouchers until they reach their destination - YQR. So if it's 3 nights in a hotel than Westjet needs to suck it up and pay. While under the APPR last minute mechanical is classified as safety and therefor means no payout of money, it doesn't trump the fact that under Westjets tariff they are to take care of the passenger for an issue within carrier control. Pretty much every airline does that without purchase of insurance or an addon to the ticket. Hence why if the news article is 100% (never is) true Westjet did fail them this time, however rebooking on AC wasn't going to happen so going back and forth on how much frequency AC or WJ has is irrelevant unfortunately.


I think WS’ claim is that a last minute air conditioning breakdown is outside WS’ control according to the APPRs, ergo APPR says no compensation payable. Not too difficult to extrapolate from there that they owe the passenger nothing, not even accommodation at a transit point. FWIW I don’t buy into this; my experience with non-Canadian carriers - first hand - is that even with ATC and weather issues, accommodation and meals are provided at the transit hub.

Two things appear to be playing into WS’ approach.

- the APPRs, which were now formally define things which used to be viewed as being in the airlines control, as “safety issues”, and therefore consequence-free. This was a perhaps inevitable outcome of the way in which they were drafted - and whose input counted more. But not entirely surprising given some of the public discourse about conflicts of interest surrounding the CTA. They’ve somehow managed to make passenger protection worse with the APPRs. Which… is quite something.

- WS being, at its core, an LCC/ULCC as far as Y pax are concerned. It can roll out all the lounges it wants, but in keeping with its inherent LCC/ULCC mindset when it comes to Y pax, it seems to have adopted an instinctively adversarial approach. The stranded Y customer is the enemy, not a human in a jam; cede no ground regardless of how silly or unique the situation is.

The latter certainly is certainly at the fore here. While WS might not be able to “rebook” anyone on AC (because of some poorly thought out nonsense about where they got onto the plane), nothing precluded it from buying seats on the spot in a fairly non-slippery slope situation (assuming these types of multiple day delays are the exception, rather than norm at WS).
 
ac190
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue May 24, 2022 8:23 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
ac190 wrote:
Clearing up the recent comments on why Westjet can't get them there by using other airlines and comepensation.


Very interesting details - thanks.

ac190 wrote:
WS has rebooking agreements with other airlines. Welcome to the industry standard... AC is a partner with them however there are rules. First off being, the entire journey has to be within Canada. Second being travel has to be day of.

If I am flying YYC - YYZ - LGA and my YYC-YYZ flight is cancelled/delayed, the CSA is not allowed to rebooking using Air Canada since it includes a trans-border (same for international) segment.

So that shuts down pretty much why they couldn't be rebooked on AC using that reservation. Now there have been instances of both AC & WJ employees not playing by the rules and rebooking anyways regardless of those two rules but you're risking it.


Amazing.

I won’t pretend to know if that represents a breathtaking lack of common sense and/or an abundance of pettiness on the part of either or both carriers, or, indeed, the regulators for not noticing or addressing it, but the fact that we could theoretically have someone fly for 20 hours from the other side of the world and get stuck in a transit hub in Canada for multiple days because the only available seats are on another airline and they got onto the plane outside Canada, do not flatter the intelligence or wit of whoever came up with these rules, or - for that matter - whoever thinks they’re acceptable.

Makes one wonder: where are the grown ups? :P. “Canadian aviation” really comes across as a clown show at times.

ac190 wrote:
WestJet's rebooking, a version of Sabre is pretty garbage so just going to add not surprised that they weren't able to be rebooked on a WJ connection/flight sooner. That and they don't overbook a flight or standby confirmed passengers complicates things.

Second being compensation. According to the news article there was an issue with a broken air conditioner on the aircraft. That automatically should've entitled them to a hotel and meal vouchers until they reach their destination - YQR. So if it's 3 nights in a hotel than Westjet needs to suck it up and pay. While under the APPR last minute mechanical is classified as safety and therefor means no payout of money, it doesn't trump the fact that under Westjets tariff they are to take care of the passenger for an issue within carrier control. Pretty much every airline does that without purchase of insurance or an addon to the ticket. Hence why if the news article is 100% (never is) true Westjet did fail them this time, however rebooking on AC wasn't going to happen so going back and forth on how much frequency AC or WJ has is irrelevant unfortunately.


I think WS’ claim is that a last minute air conditioning breakdown is outside WS’ control according to the APPRs, ergo APPR says no compensation payable. Not too difficult to extrapolate from there that they owe the passenger nothing, not even accommodation at a transit point. FWIW I don’t buy into this; my experience with non-Canadian carriers - first hand - is that even with ATC and weather issues, accommodation and meals are provided at the transit hub.

Two things appear to be playing into WS’ approach.

- the APPRs, which were now formally define things which used to be viewed as being in the airlines control, as “safety issues”, and therefore consequence-free. This was a perhaps inevitable outcome of the way in which they were drafted - and whose input counted more. But not entirely surprising given some of the public discourse about conflicts of interest surrounding the CTA. They’ve somehow managed to make passenger protection worse with the APPRs. Which… is quite something.

- WS being, at its core, an LCC/ULCC as far as Y pax are concerned. It can roll out all the lounges it wants, but in keeping with its inherent LCC/ULCC mindset when it comes to Y pax, it seems to have adopted an instinctively adversarial approach. The stranded Y customer is the enemy, not a human in a jam; cede no ground regardless of how silly or unique the situation is.

The latter certainly is certainly at the fore here. While WS might not be able to “rebook” anyone on AC (because of some poorly thought out nonsense about where they got onto the plane), nothing precluded it from buying seats on the spot in a fairly non-slippery slope situation (assuming these types of multiple day delays are the exception, rather than norm at WS).


The agreement was made several years ago and hasn't been upgraded with the times. The idea behind restricting it to domestic and day off travel was pettiness on behalf of both carriers to not let one get an advantage of using it. In the end it seems to work out OK for both - WS rebooks on AC more out east and AC rebooks on WS more out west.

In Canada there is two types of compensation. Trip compensation/standards of treatment IE. Hotels, meal vouchers, transportation vouchers and arrival delay compensation - Money for arriving 3+ hours past paid ticket scheduled arrival.

WS can claim that an air conditioning breakdown is out it's control however it's not. Anything mechanically wrong with the aircraft is controllable obviously with some exceptions. Mechanical damage caused by passenger, weather/natural disasters or FOD all are outside of carrier control. So unless a passenger was taking a hammer to the pack's its within carrier control for safety. Therefor, the passengers are entitled to trip compensation - Hotel, meal vouchers and if need transportation vouchers but would not be entitled to money for arriving late to YQR.

Obviously I think there is more to the story however personally I think this comes down to lack of training and airport level management. More than likely the guest service manager or lead on duty didn't know or care enough to see what they are entitled to.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue May 24, 2022 9:29 pm

ac190 wrote:

The agreement was made several years ago and hasn't been upgraded with the times. The idea behind restricting it to domestic and day off travel was pettiness on behalf of both carriers to not let one get an advantage of using it. In the end it seems to work out OK for both - WS rebooks on AC more out east and AC rebooks on WS more out west.


I guess the question is - is it really working if it doesn’t actually work for international/TB pax (who account for 43% of the total aviation market)?

A significant regulatory failing, if nothing else. The CTA has a mandate to protect air consumers. It’s quite evidently failing here. Which may or may not come as a surprise.

ac190 wrote:
In Canada there is two types of compensation. Trip compensation/standards of treatment IE. Hotels, meal vouchers, transportation vouchers and arrival delay compensation - Money for arriving 3+ hours past paid ticket scheduled arrival.

WS can claim that an air conditioning breakdown is out it's control however it's not. Anything mechanically wrong with the aircraft is controllable obviously with some exceptions. Mechanical damage caused by passenger, weather/natural disasters or FOD all are outside of carrier control. So unless a passenger was taking a hammer to the pack's its within carrier control for safety. Therefor, the passengers are entitled to trip compensation - Hotel, meal vouchers and if need transportation vouchers but would not be entitled to money for arriving late to YQR.

Obviously I think there is more to the story however personally I think this comes down to lack of training and airport level management. More than likely the guest service manager or lead on duty didn't know or care enough to see what they are entitled to.


The issue is less whether air conditioning is outside WS’ control (outside of crewing/staffing issues, “outside the airlines control” might as well be a dartboard game; it’s anybody’s guess as to what actually qualifies).

In this case, WS explicitly says it’s outside their control - even after the fact. To wit - from the article:

“As these guest’s journeys were impacted by events outside of WestJet’s control, they unfortunately do not qualify for compensation under APPR”

It’s hard to see how an event can be outside WS’ control with respect to APPRs financial remedies, but within its control for non-financial/ accommodation remedies.

You may well be right on the fact of the matter - that it’s within WS’ control - but that would have counted for nought when the pax were stranded at the airport. The only one who can make that call is the CTA or a provincial adjudicator, and as recent cases have shown us, it is a long and gruelling process once the airline takes a stand, not something that can be resolved at the airport.

I suppose the Tariffs might shed light into this, but my money is on the CTA interpreting the WS tariffs the same way it’s management at YYZ (which is not some small remote WS station) has - that nothing (not even accommodation) is owed under the APPRs or otherwise.

The story explicitly states:

“We talked to some great people, but they said there was nothing they could do and that the issue was not WestJet’s problem, so they wouldn’t give us any vouchers for food or hotels”

And WS had the opportunity to contradict it in its statement, but didn’t. So while we can speculate about what else there is to the story, the known facts don’t change: WS washed its hands off them at one of its major stations because the delay was caused by a broken AC that - in their opinion - was outside their control.

In this situation, the pax standing across from them is SOL. Maybe CTA will make him whole again in a year or two. Maybe not. But that has no bearing on the decisions WS made that day, and the options left open to the pax when it mattered.

Which is symptomatic of a broken system as consumers go.
 
Acey
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue May 24, 2022 10:30 pm

YEGFlyer wrote:
LH, Edelweiss, AC US routes all to regional? AC capacity/freq cuts or lack of growth?

No idea why this is so controversial...West Jet is muscling out competition and I think this is a pretty obvious conclusion when you look at the market objectively?


Mostly because you say things that are completely false or straight up lies.

YEGFlyer wrote:
AC US routes all to regional?


This statement, for example, is 100% false.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue May 24, 2022 11:30 pm

Acey wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
LH, Edelweiss, AC US routes all to regional? AC capacity/freq cuts or lack of growth?

No idea why this is so controversial...West Jet is muscling out competition and I think this is a pretty obvious conclusion when you look at the market objectively?


Mostly because you say things that are completely false or straight up lies.

YEGFlyer wrote:
AC US routes all to regional?


This statement, for example, is 100% false.


In all fairness, it’s what “westjetters” have been told. Westjet has a long history of arming their employees with (ahem) “facts” and encouraging them to repeat it in social media. Sometimes, it’s kind of funny.

Remember a couple of years ago, there was a discussion about the YYZ-YYJ route. A westjet employee stated they were “eating Air Canada for breakfast” on the route. (Because that’s what he was told). AC had a daily 280 seat 767 and a daily 200 seat A321 and a 132 seat A319 five times weekly. Westjet was flying a 737-700/600 three times a week, but somehow they were “winning”. Uh yeah ….. ok.

I recently read on a statistics page that Calgary had the lowest average airfare of any city in Canada. So is westjet doing something better being dominant, or are other airlines simply using scarce resources on winning cities instead. Air Canada is the dominant carrier in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver …. let westjet have Calgary …. that is until the Alberta economy picks up again.
 
YEGFlyer
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 12:32 am

Acey wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
LH, Edelweiss, AC US routes all to regional? AC capacity/freq cuts or lack of growth?

No idea why this is so controversial...West Jet is muscling out competition and I think this is a pretty obvious conclusion when you look at the market objectively?


Mostly because you say things that are completely false or straight up lies.

YEGFlyer wrote:
AC US routes all to regional?


This statement, for example, is 100% false.

Okay, so how about saying a bunch of US routes now operated by regional. Again, is it really so wrong to make the general observation and ask where things lead? Such a question would be highly germane to the topic being discussed in this thread....
 
alo2yyz
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 1:29 am

Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
With ws it apparent they wish to align with industry standard practice in regards to compensation. They clearly want to have a consistent policy (inconsistent policies are not appealing in customer service) when it comes to these situations which quite possibly could occur more frequent during Canada’s dreary winters. It would be nice if ws would offer an insurance like Air Canada’s On my way©.

With Westjet, they are an in-transition full service carrier that is aligned with other full service carriers in not providing hotels for issues outside of carriers control. Name one major North American carrier which provides this type of coverage ?

Perhaps Flair Air will become the saviour of the aviation world and invest in taking care of its’ customers during an irregular event ( cancellations outside of their control) and put their customers in hotels.
That would certainly differentiate them from Lynx Air. That right there would make me want to switch from flying with Air Canada and Westjet or Porter.


Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital within 24 hours. Same for AC. This is a peculiarly WS outcome. For all the talk of aligning with industry standard practice, they’re not very good at operating like other industry actors, eh?

As for F8, given that they don’t offer connecting flights (which WS hacks like to deride them for), stands to reason that they have a very low likelihood of stranding someone in a city that isn’t their origin or destination. Perhaps WS should take a page out of F8’s book and stop offering connecting flights if it can’t get people from their hub to their (non-remote destination within 24 hours?

WN can't get you to SAF, JNU, HLN, TLH....ect


WN isn't a full-service network carrier like WS is (or is positioning itself as, depending on one's viewpoint). And the list of cities you chose...1) just up the road from ABQ; 2) literally an island in Alaska; 3) remote by lower 48 standards + not served by all of the US3; 4) not served by all of the US3 + would be a uni town like State College if it wasn't the state capital
 
Acey
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 1:39 am

CrewBunk wrote:
I recently read on a statistics page that Calgary had the lowest average airfare of any city in Canada. So is westjet doing something better being dominant, or are other airlines simply using scarce resources on winning cities instead. Air Canada is the dominant carrier in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver …. let westjet have Calgary …. that is until the Alberta economy picks up again.

I'd be curious to see this list... and what they're qualifying as a "city". There's really no way this could be true.
 
WS7M8
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 2:32 am

IceCream wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
LH, Edelweiss, AC US routes all to regional? AC capacity/freq cuts or lack of growth?

No idea why this is so controversial...West Jet is muscling out competition and I think this is a pretty obvious conclusion when you look at the market objectively?

With their ambitions to become a neo-legacy carrier, don't you think they'll keep building up frequencies? I think it is valid to talk about market shifts. Granted, UA and DEN might be in a better place than some other routes given the UA AC tie-up so you do have some feed on both ends. I could see YYC becoming more of a one-airline show in years ahead.

Edelweiss is still at YYC, LH is coming back through Eurowings, and AC US routes being regional is for one summer during the first year of recovery. AC's going to focus on their largest hubs to bring back service, just like WS is. Totally normal stuff. It's controversial because it's not completely true. That being said WS certainly drove AT out of the market.

Anyways I wonder if WS adds more Max 8 to Europe out of YYZ (could LIS, KEF, etc happen?)


KEF I would definitely expect out of WS, possibly as soon as next summer. IcelandAir is running their Maxs KEF-YYZ. FWIW, if WS starts KEF service, it may well be from YYC, as that is where they are originating a lot of their non YHZ European flying, and then spilling it over to YYZ. They may be on to something, as Calgary is pulling in a good # of US connections transiting through going and coming, and that would be an easy addition that doesn't even require a B787, of which they are short on now. KEF has become quite the tourist hotspot in the last decade or so, and I could see them originating it from both YYC and YYZ at the same time.

LIS - might be a stretch from YYZ. It is 3100 nm on the GCMap, which when you add a few zigs and zags probably makes it just a touch beyond a full Max-8's range, so it might not be worth it.

MAN - is a logical addition Max 8 to their YYZ network. Pre-COVID, they were planning YHZ-MAN. From YYZ, this is a route that I believe is just at the effective limit of the Max-8's range. They might do something like they are doing with DUB / GLA, aka offering service on different days from YYZ and YHZ.

They might also pull an oddball destination out of their hat in the Northern UK or Ireland, such as Shannon, Belfast or Newcastle, each of which would be within the Max 8's range, and are probably best suited for 2-3 times weekly service in the summer.

Here is my post, depicted on GCMap

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yhz-man-yy ... =wls&DU=nm
 
RMTAviation
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 2:39 am

Is Westjet going to convert its 10 options for the 787?
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 3:04 am

Acey wrote:
I'd be curious to see this list... and what they're qualifying as a "city". There's really no way this could be true.


It’s on a database website to which I subscribe called statista.com. I’m not sure how much you can see without a subscription, but go to the site and search on “air transportation in Canada - statistics and facts”. You may be able to see it.
 
Acey
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 3:04 am

WS7M8 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
LH, Edelweiss, AC US routes all to regional? AC capacity/freq cuts or lack of growth?

No idea why this is so controversial...West Jet is muscling out competition and I think this is a pretty obvious conclusion when you look at the market objectively?

With their ambitions to become a neo-legacy carrier, don't you think they'll keep building up frequencies? I think it is valid to talk about market shifts. Granted, UA and DEN might be in a better place than some other routes given the UA AC tie-up so you do have some feed on both ends. I could see YYC becoming more of a one-airline show in years ahead.

Edelweiss is still at YYC, LH is coming back through Eurowings, and AC US routes being regional is for one summer during the first year of recovery. AC's going to focus on their largest hubs to bring back service, just like WS is. Totally normal stuff. It's controversial because it's not completely true. That being said WS certainly drove AT out of the market.

Anyways I wonder if WS adds more Max 8 to Europe out of YYZ (could LIS, KEF, etc happen?)


KEF I would definitely expect out of WS, possibly as soon as next summer. IcelandAir is running their Maxs KEF-YYZ. FWIW, if WS starts KEF service, it may well be from YYC, as that is where they are originating a lot of their non YHZ European flying, and then spilling it over to YYZ. They may be on to something, as Calgary is pulling in a good # of US connections transiting through going and coming, and that would be an easy addition that doesn't even require a B787, of which they are short on now. KEF has become quite the tourist hotspot in the last decade or so, and I could see them originating it from both YYC and YYZ at the same time.

LIS - might be a stretch from YYZ. It is 3100 nm on the GCMap, which when you add a few zigs and zags probably makes it just a touch beyond a full Max-8's range, so it might not be worth it.

MAN - is a logical addition Max 8 to their YYZ network. Pre-COVID, they were planning YHZ-MAN. From YYZ, this is a route that I believe is just at the effective limit of the Max-8's range. They might do something like they are doing with DUB / GLA, aka offering service on different days from YYZ and YHZ.

They might also pull an oddball destination out of their hat in the Northern UK or Ireland, such as Shannon, Belfast or Newcastle, each of which would be within the Max 8's range, and are probably best suited for 2-3 times weekly service in the summer.

Here is my post, depicted on GCMap

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yhz-man-yy ... =wls&DU=nm


WS does interline with FI but man I'd be shocked if they launched it next summer. My position on a KEF-YYC is definitely more of a "within the physical capability of the 7M8" as opposed to "expecting it".
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 3:27 am

YEGFlyer wrote:
Okay, so how about saying a bunch of US routes now operated by regional. Again, is it really so wrong to make the general observation and ask where things lead? Such a question would be highly germane to the topic being discussed in this thread....


I’m guessing this is sort of a sore spot over at teal HQ in YYC. Westjet has nothing between the Q400 and 737-700 in size. This limits where it can go. And ….. there’s only so many times you’re going to get a businessman on a prop for a flight from YYZ-YOW/YUL or YYZ-ORD.

By comparison, Air Canada Express is flying 25 76 seat E175s, 35 76 seat CRJ-900s and 15 50 seat CRJ-200s. Westjet really needs an operation like that to add frequency. Using YYC-DEN as an example, three times a week is ok, but until you up it to at least three times daily, you’ll never be a threat to United. And face it, westjet doesn’t have the mass for three 737s a day from YYC to DEN.

Where is this leading? Well, Air Canada is pulling A319/320s out of the desert, just ordered a batch more A321s and converted A220 options to orders. I’d say, things were leading away from regionals. And btw, approximately only 23% of Air Canada’s trans-border seat miles are operated by Air Canada Express.
 
WS7M8
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed May 25, 2022 3:30 am

Acey wrote:
WS7M8 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Edelweiss is still at YYC, LH is coming back through Eurowings, and AC US routes being regional is for one summer during the first year of recovery. AC's going to focus on their largest hubs to bring back service, just like WS is. Totally normal stuff. It's controversial because it's not completely true. That being said WS certainly drove AT out of the market.

Anyways I wonder if WS adds more Max 8 to Europe out of YYZ (could LIS, KEF, etc happen?)


KEF I would definitely expect out of WS, possibly as soon as next summer. IcelandAir is running their Maxs KEF-YYZ. FWIW, if WS starts KEF service, it may well be from YYC, as that is where they are originating a lot of their non YHZ European flying, and then spilling it over to YYZ. They may be on to something, as Calgary is pulling in a good # of US connections transiting through going and coming, and that would be an easy addition that doesn't even require a B787, of which they are short on now. KEF has become quite the tourist hotspot in the last decade or so, and I could see them originating it from both YYC and YYZ at the same time.

LIS - might be a stretch from YYZ. It is 3100 nm on the GCMap, which when you add a few zigs and zags probably makes it just a touch beyond a full Max-8's range, so it might not be worth it.

MAN - is a logical addition Max 8 to their YYZ network. Pre-COVID, they were planning YHZ-MAN. From YYZ, this is a route that I believe is just at the effective limit of the Max-8's range. They might do something like they are doing with DUB / GLA, aka offering service on different days from YYZ and YHZ.

They might also pull an oddball destination out of their hat in the Northern UK or Ireland, such as Shannon, Belfast or Newcastle, each of which would be within the Max 8's range, and are probably best suited for 2-3 times weekly service in the summer.

Here is my post, depicted on GCMap

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yhz-man-yy ... =wls&DU=nm


WS does interline with FI but man I'd be shocked if they launched it next summer. My position on a KEF-YYC is definitely more of a "within the physical capability of the 7M8" as opposed to "expecting it".


That is a good point you make.

As much as I am a YYC resident and huge WS fan, they do have a long history of breaking up with interline partners. And it goes back a long way at the company, and has been well documented, from the Air Transat subcontract for data which was used to head to southern destinations and ultimately form WestJet vacations, to more recent years where they have split off from partnerships with BA and AA among others, presumably with the data to know that London would be a successful market from anywhere, whereas the American hubs of DFW and ORD would not be.

They have been interlining with FI for years - in fact IcelandAir used to do YEG KEF (which hasn't returned), with feed from numerous Western Canadian cities carried by WS. YYC only adds a few more miles to the route, but within the WS world it is optimized for connections. They'll have everything east of YWG to draw from, as well as LAX/SFO/PDX/SEA/PHX/LAS/GEG, which should provide ample connection opportunities and fill the airplane. Have it departing YYC at the same time as their Euro bank and it will fit in seamlessly at the international terminal. A 2800 nm route is well within the Max's capabilities, and it really should compliment the kind of hub they are trying to build in YYC.

If anything, FI has to be expecting this, as illustrated that they aren't back in Edmonton. The competition would be good. Although I do believe there is room for both carriers in various Canada - KEF markets, as WS would be selling to Canadian tourists, whereas FI carries a lot of European connections as well as visitors.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu May 26, 2022 2:12 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital within 24 hours. Same for AC. This is a peculiarly WS outcome. For all the talk of aligning with industry standard practice, they’re not very good at operating like other industry actors, eh?

As for F8, given that they don’t offer connecting flights (which WS hacks like to deride them for), stands to reason that they have a very low likelihood of stranding someone in a city that isn’t their origin or destination. Perhaps WS should take a page out of F8’s book and stop offering connecting flights if it can’t get people from their hub to their (non-remote destination within 24 hours?

WN can't get you to SAF, JNU, HLN, TLH....ect


Makes it highly unlikely, then, that WN will sell tickets to those destinations and strand pax in third cities in between.

To be clear, that wasn’t about WS not being able to get pax to YFB (which WS - and AC - don’t serve); that was about YQR, which both theoretically serve.

All besides the point. I was responding to "Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital within 24 hours. " only. That stament was not right.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu May 26, 2022 2:17 am

alo2yyz wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital within 24 hours. Same for AC. This is a peculiarly WS outcome. For all the talk of aligning with industry standard practice, they’re not very good at operating like other industry actors, eh?

As for F8, given that they don’t offer connecting flights (which WS hacks like to deride them for), stands to reason that they have a very low likelihood of stranding someone in a city that isn’t their origin or destination. Perhaps WS should take a page out of F8’s book and stop offering connecting flights if it can’t get people from their hub to their (non-remote destination within 24 hours?

WN can't get you to SAF, JNU, HLN, TLH....ect


WN isn't a full-service network carrier like WS is (or is positioning itself as, depending on one's viewpoint). And the list of cities you chose...1) just up the road from ABQ; 2) literally an island in Alaska; 3) remote by lower 48 standards + not served by all of the US3; 4) not served by all of the US3 + would be a uni town like State College if it wasn't the state capital

I wasn't making a value statement. Just correcting a factual stament that was wrong. Of course there are reasons WN can't do it. I wasn't criticizing WN.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu May 26, 2022 3:36 am

Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
WN can't get you to SAF, JNU, HLN, TLH....ect


Makes it highly unlikely, then, that WN will sell tickets to those destinations and strand pax in third cities in between.

To be clear, that wasn’t about WS not being able to get pax to YFB (which WS - and AC - don’t serve); that was about YQR, which both theoretically serve.

All besides the point. I was responding to "Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital within 24 hours. " only. That stament was not right.


Ah okay.

Apologies, I’ll correct it to:

“Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital that it serves, within 24 hours”.

Hopefully that mitigates any gaps in … errr…. comprehension.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu May 26, 2022 5:04 pm

WestJet’s flight dispatchers ratified their latest contract with the company, represented by the Canadian Airline Dispatchers Association (CALDA). The membership voted more than 90 per cent in favour of a 10-year agreement.

This ratified agreement starts June 1, 2022 and expires on May 31, 2032.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu May 26, 2022 7:49 pm

WestJet announces today, that the airline is donating domestic flights to assist displaced Ukrainians with onward domestic connections upon their arrival in Canada.

To assist Ukrainians in need of air travel, WestJet has provided 500 domestic one-way flights to any WestJet destination in Canada to ensure they reach their final destinations across the country with ease. The airline will also waive all taxes, third party and baggage fees associated with these vouchers.

Upon arrival in Canada, Ukrainians seeking to be relocated to other cities or provinces, will be provided with free domestic flights. This generous donation of WestJet is coordinated by CISSA-ACSEI and the provincial/territorial network of settlement agencies on the ground.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri May 27, 2022 12:58 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Makes it highly unlikely, then, that WN will sell tickets to those destinations and strand pax in third cities in between.

To be clear, that wasn’t about WS not being able to get pax to YFB (which WS - and AC - don’t serve); that was about YQR, which both theoretically serve.

All besides the point. I was responding to "Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital within 24 hours. " only. That stament was not right.


Ah okay.

Apologies, I’ll correct it to:

“Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital that it serves, within 24 hours”.

Hopefully that mitigates any gaps in … errr…. comprehension.

"Priciple" hub gives you some wiggle room, but I got stuck for over 24 hours in SFO once on a UA EUG-SFO-IAH-BNA itinerary and only got where I was going in under 48 hours because I took their offer of a AA flight to TYS.

Stuff happens.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri May 27, 2022 1:51 am

Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
All besides the point. I was responding to "Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital within 24 hours. " only. That stament was not right.


Ah okay.

Apologies, I’ll correct it to:

“Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital that it serves, within 24 hours”.

Hopefully that mitigates any gaps in … errr…. comprehension.

"Priciple" hub gives you some wiggle room, but I got stuck for over 24 hours in SFO once on a UA EUG-SFO-IAH-BNA itinerary and only got where I was going in under 48 hours because I took their offer of a AA flight to TYS.

Stuff happens.


Interesting.

Was the reason within or outside UA’s control?

Did UA provide accommodation and/or food vouchers?

Part of the issue here is that WS evidently offered neither on the basis that the delay - a broken AC - was out of their control.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 702
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sun May 29, 2022 2:30 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Ah okay.

Apologies, I’ll correct it to:

“Can’t think of any US carrier that wouldn’t be able to transport someone from its principal hub to a state capital that it serves, within 24 hours”.

Hopefully that mitigates any gaps in … errr…. comprehension.

"Priciple" hub gives you some wiggle room, but I got stuck for over 24 hours in SFO once on a UA EUG-SFO-IAH-BNA itinerary and only got where I was going in under 48 hours because I took their offer of a AA flight to TYS.

Stuff happens.


Interesting.

Was the reason within or outside UA’s control?

Did UA provide accommodation and/or food vouchers?

Part of the issue here is that WS evidently offered neither on the basis that the delay - a broken AC - was out of their control.

No hotel or food voucher. The reason for the delay was fog, but...when it became apparent that we weren't going to make the connection I asked them to put us on AS to SEA connecting to UA SEA-ORD-BNA. They refused and said they wouldn't put us on another airline until after we had already missed the connection (which they did). ☹️

Inccedently, there is another active thread in which someone related an over 24 hour DL delay on a NYC connection on the way to RIC.
 
casperCA
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sun May 29, 2022 2:48 am

Aliqiout wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
"Priciple" hub gives you some wiggle room, but I got stuck for over 24 hours in SFO once on a UA EUG-SFO-IAH-BNA itinerary and only got where I was going in under 48 hours because I took their offer of a AA flight to TYS.

Stuff happens.


Interesting.

Was the reason within or outside UA’s control?

Did UA provide accommodation and/or food vouchers?

Part of the issue here is that WS evidently offered neither on the basis that the delay - a broken AC - was out of their control.

No hotel or food voucher. The reason for the delay was fog, but...when it became apparent that we weren't going to make the connection I asked them to put us on AS to SEA connecting to UA SEA-ORD-BNA. They refused and said they wouldn't put us on another airline until after we had already missed the connection (which they did). ☹️
..... .


Refusing to primitively resolve problems is a pragmatic way is a major problem with both WS and other airlines. These airlines have lost sight of their responsibility. They made a commitment to get people to their destination in a timely fashion. Sometimes that is not possible, and that is fine. When they can proactively and pragmatically resolve or minimize the impact then there is a fundament problem. This is where consumer protection laws are required and they need to pro-actively empower front line staff to solve problems.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:42 am

https://brandirectory.com/rankings/airlines/
According to this group Westjet has the strongest airline brand in the world.
 
777luver
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:38 am

IceCream wrote:
https://brandirectory.com/rankings/airlines/
According to this group Westjet has the strongest airline brand in the world.


Created a separate thread for this topic already
 
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Aresxerexade
Posts: 202
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:23 am

Happy Flight Attendant Appreciation Day WS Cabin Crew! https://youtu.be/LmqrHlJJ8ps
 
Breathe
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:24 pm

WestJet has launched it's first commercial flight to Edinburgh

https://www.heraldscotland.com/business ... -launched/

Canadian airline WestJet’s inaugural flight from Edinburgh has departed for Toronto, marking the start of a three times per week seasonal service which will run until October.

Flights will depart on Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays on a Boeing 737 Max.

Edinburgh Airport declared the “non-stop service means famous attractions like the CN Tower, the Distillery District and Niagara Falls – albeit a wee bit further – are now just a flight away due to the direct connectivity”.

The airport added that the new service also strengthens Edinburgh’s connectivity to North America, “opening up other areas and destinations through hub connections”.


There's a video of the arrival here, complete with bagpipes:

https://twitter.com/EDI_Airport/status/ ... 06/video/1
 
WS7M8
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:00 am

How are the WestJet Cargo freighters doing?

I've observed a few of them during daytime hours on the ramp at my home airport (Calgary). Are they flying routes across Canada or elsewhere yet?
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:48 am

[url][/url]
WS7M8 wrote:
How are the WestJet Cargo freighters doing?

I've observed a few of them during daytime hours on the ramp at my home airport (Calgary). Are they flying routes across Canada or elsewhere yet?


Not flying yet, later in the summer was last I heard. Not sure what the hold up is, something to do with certification.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:35 pm

Decided to do a mock booking on YYC-FCO for tonight for fun and to see how expensive fares get when buying last minute and it looks like there are only 3 seats left on the entire flight.
 
Daviation22
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:39 pm

Flew on westjet last night. Pilot looked really young and we had an aborted landing. Maybe someone can look at the logs to see what went wrong. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA ... Z/tracklog
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:47 pm

Westjet today announced a new partnership with Aero Design Labs to modify the airline's 737-700 NG aircraft for greater reduced emissions and improved fuel efficiency with a first of its kind technology. It's anticipated that the modifications will reduce overall fuel burn through drag reduction and lead to long-term cost savings and reduced carbon emissions on the 737-700 aircraft.

First approved modified 737-700 aircraft to take flight as early as Fall 2022


The Aero Design Labs team created the Aerodynamic Drag Reduction System (ADRS 1) for the Boeing 737-700 fleet. WestJet was a key partner in the installation, certification and validation of the product. The airline and Aero Design Labs worked together to gather data and findings which drove additional modifications and feedback on the technology, which will be added to the aircraft once approved and validated by Transport Canada for commercial use.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:06 am

Daviation22 wrote:
Flew on westjet last night. Pilot looked really young and we had an aborted landing. Maybe someone can look at the logs to see what went wrong. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA ... Z/tracklog


Nothing “went wrong” go arounds happen often and can be for any numbers of reasons. Crews train for it all the time.
 
SPREE34
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:28 pm

Daviation22 wrote:
Flew on westjet last night. Pilot looked really young and we had an aborted landing. Maybe someone can look at the logs to see what went wrong. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA ... Z/tracklog


"Pilot looked really young." Inference much? Go Arounds happen daily all over the world for reasons varying from wind gusts, ATC issued, animals wondering onto the runway, onboard warning systems and more. No need to vilify, infer, or suggest incompetence over something you don't understand.
 
Acey
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:32 pm

Even if there was some kind of incident, he expects armchair quarterbacks on an online forum to deduce it based on inaccurate and periodic updates from FlightAware? What a bizarre post on so many levels.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:34 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
Daviation22 wrote:
Flew on westjet last night. Pilot looked really young and we had an aborted landing. Maybe someone can look at the logs to see what went wrong. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA ... Z/tracklog


Nothing “went wrong” go arounds happen often and can be for any numbers of reasons. Crews train for it all the time.


Indeed.

A go-around is the sign of a well trained, disciplined pilot. Be very wary of one who says he’s never done a go-around.
 
WJtter
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:23 pm

WestJet will be making an announcement within the next few hours, some drastic changes will be announced.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:26 pm

WJtter wrote:
WestJet will be making an announcement within the next few hours, some drastic changes will be announced.

Well, I hope it's not bad. Drastic doesn't sound very nice.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:02 pm

Announcement , press? Intrigued….. please skyteam……
 
markabcan
Posts: 207
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:13 pm

Perhaps this:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... NewsSearch

Basically, refocusing on the narrowbody fleet as well as their presence in the west.
Last edited by markabcan on Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
hollywoodcory
Posts: 416
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:13 pm

WS has again requested and obtained sots for DXB in the Winter.

https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoi ... QwYjY3YiJ9

Destination listed as ZZF in the report. They've previously requested slots for W20 / S21 and W21.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:21 pm

So looks like WS will stay at their 10 787's for now and significantly focus on the west. I wonder what this will look like in 2023 then.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:29 pm

markabcan wrote:
Perhaps this:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... NewsSearch

Basically, refocusing on the narrowbody fleet as well as their presence in the west.


Thank you for this! Interesting line from the article “WestJet is working toward another substantial narrow-body order to further expand this segment.”

I wonder if they will be adding a different narrowbody type or ordering more MAX?
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:30 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
markabcan wrote:
Perhaps this:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... NewsSearch

Basically, refocusing on the narrowbody fleet as well as their presence in the west.


Thank you for this! Interesting line from the article “WestJet is working toward another substantial narrow-body order to further expand this segment.”

I wonder if they will be adding a different narrowbody type or ordering more MAX?

Looks like they'll only take one more 787 for a total of 7 as well.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:37 pm

IceCream wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
markabcan wrote:
Perhaps this:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... NewsSearch

Basically, refocusing on the narrowbody fleet as well as their presence in the west.


Thank you for this! Interesting line from the article “WestJet is working toward another substantial narrow-body order to further expand this segment.”

I wonder if they will be adding a different narrowbody type or ordering more MAX?

Looks like they'll only take one more 787 for a total of 7 as well.


I wonder if they are preparing to switch to airbus
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:56 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
IceCream wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:

Thank you for this! Interesting line from the article “WestJet is working toward another substantial narrow-body order to further expand this segment.”

I wonder if they will be adding a different narrowbody type or ordering more MAX?

Looks like they'll only take one more 787 for a total of 7 as well.


I wonder if they are preparing to switch to airbus

I'm hearing that they'll put all the 787's at YYC. I don't think they're buying more long haul planes. In terms of airbus for narrowbody they seem very focussed on low cost and simple operations, so maybe not yet?
 
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Aresxerexade
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:01 pm

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2022 ... ble-westje

Growth as a low-cost carrier that is friendly, reliable and modern
Shifting resources to significantly grow its presence and network in the West, fostering its undisputed status as the home-team carrier of Western Canada offering more direct, non-stop flights to communities
Investing further in leisure and sun flying as a priority across Canada, including through the acquisition of Sunwing, following regulatory approval
Investing in technology and radical digitalization to improve guest experience and simplify internal processes to ensure meaningful and engaging jobs for its people
Redoubling efforts to maintain its successful and highly productive low-cost structure and culture, to ensure relentless competitiveness and affordability for guests
 
Whiteguy
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Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:41 pm

IceCream wrote:
So looks like WS will stay at their 10 787's for now and significantly focus on the west. I wonder what this will look like in 2023 then.


Stay at 6, maybe 7 if delivered, other 3 will not be delivered for now.
 
Juju2004
Posts: 126
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:59 pm

Reallocating Westjet Encore planes to the West and running a "complementary" service with Swoop.. sounds to me like they're admitting to be threatened by Flair and Lynx as they should be. You can't justify charging 5x the price for a similar cabin product only to get free peanuts and hand luggage (and not even free seat selection?)

Will they allow Swoop to cannibalize their revenues from YYC or YVR to better compete with the ULCCs and let some routes get completely Swooped like what happened to YEG-YOW?
Last edited by Juju2004 on Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:01 pm

Surprising one, that.

Notwithstanding the positive sounding language, sounds like they’re retreating to regional carrier status and suspending the international expansion for at least a few years.

COVID has evidently taken a serious toll on the financial front, because this reads like a retreat under financial pressure - there’s a significant emphasis on “cost-conscious” and “low-cost” throughout it.

Not sure that ceding even more ground to AC will do them any favours (not to mention the new ULCCs setting up base in YEG and YYC), but probably a prudent proactive posture given the economic mess descending across the country.

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