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9252fly
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:03 pm

chrisp390 wrote:

At this point it seems Porter will be the shiny target that will deliver most value to a US carrier once their Embraer operations at Pearson are in full swing. It seems likely that US partner will be AA, but who knows what can happen. Interesting times ahead.


Porter's board chairman is none other than Don Carty, that could be a hint.
 
ahj2000
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:46 pm

9252fly wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:

At this point it seems Porter will be the shiny target that will deliver most value to a US carrier once their Embraer operations at Pearson are in full swing. It seems likely that US partner will be AA, but who knows what can happen. Interesting times ahead.


Porter's board chairman is none other than Don Carty, that could be a hint.

So HN?
Delta will be in a very odd spot. The US airline for Alberta, I suppose, but not a real competitor in most of the rest of Canada for CAN POS
 
AWNP
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:54 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
DL is shaking their head watching the mess at Westjet continue... Westjet seems lost at who its target market is and what it wants to be, and I am sure DL has no interest in dealing with such an unstable partner. Can DL sell flights via Westjet in business class and even trust that in a year Westjet will still offer a business product, or even serve the route?


The big change is less Q400s in the east, you know the plane with no business class to begin with. And DL wasn't selling on the 87 to Europe, they have plenty of their own metal and a JV to do that.

Even though South America is DL priority right now, there's no way they wants to lose WS to AA. My guess is the size of the upside with populations not even comparable. Even with the E190s Porter is still much smaller than WS, and no business product or real network for half the fleet.
 
casperCA
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:58 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
DL is shaking their head watching the mess at Westjet continue... Westjet seems lost at who its target market is and what it wants to be, and I am sure DL has no interest in dealing with such an unstable partner. Can DL sell flights via Westjet in business class and even trust that in a year Westjet will still offer a business product, or even serve the route? While GOL covered Deltas needs in Brazil for a period of time it was clear they were not interested in feeding into a leisure carrier with a very different product and made it their priority to get a partnership with LATAM instead.

At this point it seems Porter will be the shiny target that will deliver most value to a US carrier once their Embraer operations at Pearson are in full swing. It seems likely that US partner will be AA, but who knows what can happen. Interesting times ahead.


I would not be as worried about how DL takes the news. Delta had a fairly extensive number of Canadian destinations. Many that it pulled out of during COVID and has yet to return to. Places like Saskatoon and Regina. WS offers reasonable connections to these destinations. The same holds for a number of even smaller communities that WS has never served. I don't think Delta is going to care all that much if the frequency of flights between Toronto and Montreal are cut in half. Especially if they are upgaged from a Q400 to 737 in the process.

Honestly the WS business product on the 737 is on par with Delta. No indication they are going to get rid of that. The economy product is on par. Swoop is a different issue.

AA use to be dating WS. When WS started to go partner more Delta, AA walked away. Today AA best bet in a new Porter once it gets its jets.
 
jimbo737
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:37 pm

Delta and WS have had a very tight relationship going on over 20 years now since WestJet brought in some DL -800’s post 9/11.

US carriers typically have a “wait and see” approach when it comes to snuggling up to new entrants; Porter’s untested non YTZ ops would be in that category for a while.

The WS Q400 experiment got way out of hand, esp in core markets, but that’s what always happens when MBA’s take over and ignore the fundamental core strengths and value proposition of the business.

Trying to compete on the eastern triangle with Q400’s vs narrow bodies was destined to fail from day one; same result as CP trying to do the same with F28’s in the late 90’s.

WS needs be very very mindful of Q400 usage in markets like YLW, YYJ, Saskatchewan to points west and most other routes with stage lengths longer than 400 miles.

Q400’s have a place in the mix; hopefully the latest management understand this and will adjust accordingly and sensibly.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:07 pm

IceCream wrote:
hollywoodcory wrote:
YYZ-BCN already appears to have been cancelled in S23. (It was there when the initial schedules were loaded a few weeks ago).

So I'm assuming schedules are already being changed right now?


Now looks like all of YHZ-Europe is not showing in S23 either. Again, it was there when then the initial schedules were loaded.

YYC-LHR/LGW/CDG/DUB/FCO
YYZ-LGW/DUB/GLA/EDI
YVR-LGW

Are all that remain scheduled. Given this is a looonnng way out, very likely to change. No changes to winter yet.

---

Also sounds like WS got winter slots at LHR, so I imagine YYC-LHR will get extended to year-round.
 
DFF
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:11 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Delta and WS have had a very tight relationship going on over 20 years now since WestJet brought in some DL -800’s post 9/11.

US carriers typically have a “wait and see” approach when it comes to snuggling up to new entrants; Porter’s untested non YTZ ops would be in that category for a while.

The WS Q400 experiment got way out of hand, esp in core markets, but that’s what always happens when MBA’s take over and ignore the fundamental core strengths and value proposition of the business.

Trying to compete on the eastern triangle with Q400’s vs narrow bodies was destined to fail from day one; same result as CP trying to do the same with F28’s in the late 90’s.

WS needs be very very mindful of Q400 usage in markets like YLW, YYJ, Saskatchewan to points west and most other routes with stage lengths longer than 400 miles.

Q400’s have a place in the mix; hopefully the latest management understand this and will adjust accordingly and sensibly.


There will be lots of talk about A220 - Breeze style. Is there a place for that airplane in there? Maybe. But what does a -100 get you that a -300 doesn’t - you may as well take the seats. And then you’re into a new fleet type, bumping up against the Max-7.

25+ years of jet service to those original and early cities have trained a generation to expect it.

The others guy now running CR9 into those places is also a wake up.
 
jashah
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:11 am

What’s the chance of WS running a 789 to Hawaii (HNL and/or OGG) out of YVR over the winter?
 
ACDC8
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:31 am

jashah wrote:
What’s the chance of WS running a 789 to Hawaii (HNL and/or OGG) out of YVR over the winter?

They did last year from both YYC and YVR so I could very well see it happening again this winter.
 
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Hockeyfan125
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:20 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
jashah wrote:
What’s the chance of WS running a 789 to Hawaii (HNL and/or OGG) out of YVR over the winter?

They did last year from both YYC and YVR so I could very well see it happening again this winter.



Currently I see only 4 WestJet Boeing 787 flight ✈️ routes planned for this upcoming winter so far.

Calgary YYC- London Gatwick ,UK
Calgary- Kahului OGG, Hawaii
Calgary- Toronto YYZ

Toronto- London Gatwick,UK

Though changes are still possible.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:23 am

Hockeyfan125 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
jashah wrote:
What’s the chance of WS running a 789 to Hawaii (HNL and/or OGG) out of YVR over the winter?

They did last year from both YYC and YVR so I could very well see it happening again this winter.



Currently I see only 4 WestJet Boeing 787 flight ✈️ routes planned for this upcoming winter so far.

Calgary YYC- London Gatwick ,UK
Calgary- Kahului OGG, Hawaii
Calgary- Toronto YYZ

Toronto- London Gatwick,UK

Though changes are still possible.

I wonder if the 787 stays on YYZ-LGW this winter, or if it's converted to the MAX.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:40 am

IceCream wrote:
Hockeyfan125 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
They did last year from both YYC and YVR so I could very well see it happening again this winter.



Currently I see only 4 WestJet Boeing 787 flight ✈️ routes planned for this upcoming winter so far.

Calgary YYC- London Gatwick ,UK
Calgary- Kahului OGG, Hawaii
Calgary- Toronto YYZ

Toronto- London Gatwick,UK

Though changes are still possible.

I wonder if the 787 stays on YYZ-LGW this winter, or if it's converted to the MAX.


The 787 will probably stay on YYZ-LGW.
I've heard they got LHR slots for the winter too, so maybe YYC-LHR gets extended year-round. (ACL hasn't posted the LHR report yet).

WS hasn't modified its Winter Schedule yet, so its still pretty much the 2019 pre-covid one (plus the route additions from last winter).
 
EdmFlyBoi
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:15 am

AC will just keep growing. They just added YVR-BKK and will continue to grow YVR as their transpacific gateway. The XLR’s will allow transcon lie flat J on many more routes. I live in the west and as an international traveller (both business and leisure) WS just doesn’t offer enough of a route structure or FF benefits to make them worthwhile. I guess the “home town airline” concept is appealing to some, if your travel is restricted to western North America, but when you need to go beyond that WS just doesn’t cut it.

It is interesting they hired the former CEO of Austrian, which has essentially been gutted by their parent company with Wizz eating their lunch at VIE. Austrian has hardly any wide bodies left either. Not a rip roaring success.

If they are returning to their roots (and original routes), maybe AC will take the 787’s off their hands ;-).
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:46 am

Route specific I know, but how is YYC IAH looking for WS? They seem to be 9 weekly and going to 11 weekly soon. AC does not restart until late October but I think double daily then. UA is going to one daily now and IIRC this route is one of the few JV carveouts for AC and UA.

I always fly UA on the route (and UA IAH EDM which thankfully restarts in late October) but might go free-agent and try WS on the route later this summer.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:05 am

hollywoodcory wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Hockeyfan125 wrote:


Currently I see only 4 WestJet Boeing 787 flight ✈️ routes planned for this upcoming winter so far.

Calgary YYC- London Gatwick ,UK
Calgary- Kahului OGG, Hawaii
Calgary- Toronto YYZ

Toronto- London Gatwick,UK

Though changes are still possible.

I wonder if the 787 stays on YYZ-LGW this winter, or if it's converted to the MAX.


The 787 will probably stay on YYZ-LGW.
I've heard they got LHR slots for the winter too, so maybe YYC-LHR gets extended year-round. (ACL hasn't posted the LHR report yet).

WS hasn't modified its Winter Schedule yet, so its still pretty much the 2019 pre-covid one (plus the route additions from last winter).


I think we will not fully see the announced strategy modifications until Summer 2023 season, I sense it will be a phased approach over the next few months.

I hope they add year round LGW service from YVR, with the shift of the 787’s to the west.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:30 am

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
AC will just keep growing. They just added YVR-BKK and will continue to grow YVR as their transpacific gateway. The XLR’s will allow transcon lie flat J on many more routes. I live in the west and as an international traveller (both business and leisure) WS just doesn’t offer enough of a route structure or FF benefits to make them worthwhile. I guess the “home town airline” concept is appealing to some, if your travel is restricted to western North America, but when you need to go beyond that WS just doesn’t cut it.

It is interesting they hired the former CEO of Austrian, which has essentially been gutted by their parent company with Wizz eating their lunch at VIE. Austrian has hardly any wide bodies left either. Not a rip roaring success.

If they are returning to their roots (and original routes), maybe AC will take the 787’s off their hands ;-).

Yes, AC is quite successful, but why does WS have to emulate that? Obviously, it wasn't working for them based on their recent announcement. And while I understand the concerns with a few encore routes in the east being cut/consolidated, they're really not going to shrink that much at YYZ.

While a traveller like yourself (so someone who is more of the corporate, busy and sophisticated individual who needs a premium-focused airline) probably has needs that can only be fit by a larger airline like AC However, you're right that Westjet has quite a strong route network in the west (including west-->east routes) so it's quite convenient to use if you're in the west.And if you're a leisure traveller in the east there'll still be major destinations you can fly to.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:47 am

.
 
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Hockeyfan125
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:32 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
Route specific I know, but how is YYC IAH looking for WS? They seem to be 9 weekly and going to 11 weekly soon. AC does not restart until late October but I think double daily then. UA is going to one daily now and IIRC this route is one of the few JV carveouts for AC and UA.

I always fly UA on the route (and UA IAH EDM which thankfully restarts in late October) but might go free-agent and try WS on the route later this summer.


WestJet Calgary YYC- Houston IAH is doing just fine against the competition with UA/AC on the same route.

Actually looks like United Airlines has removed the Edmonton YEG-Houston IAH nonstop flights from it’s schedules indefinitely & it’s available for booking with a connection via Denver on UA YEG- DEN nonstop flights.

AC Calgary- Houston IAH is still planned to resume late October 2022.
 
EdmFlyBoi
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:44 pm

IceCream wrote:
EdmFlyBoi wrote:
AC will just keep growing. They just added YVR-BKK and will continue to grow YVR as their transpacific gateway. The XLR’s will allow transcon lie flat J on many more routes. I live in the west and as an international traveller (both business and leisure) WS just doesn’t offer enough of a route structure or FF benefits to make them worthwhile. I guess the “home town airline” concept is appealing to some, if your travel is restricted to western North America, but when you need to go beyond that WS just doesn’t cut it.

It is interesting they hired the former CEO of Austrian, which has essentially been gutted by their parent company with Wizz eating their lunch at VIE. Austrian has hardly any wide bodies left either. Not a rip roaring success.

If they are returning to their roots (and original routes), maybe AC will take the 787’s off their hands ;-).

Yes, AC is quite successful, but why does WS have to emulate that? Obviously, it wasn't working for them based on their recent announcement. And while I understand the concerns with a few encore routes in the east being cut/consolidated, they're really not going to shrink that much at YYZ.

While a traveller like yourself (so someone who is more of the corporate, busy and sophisticated individual who needs a premium-focused airline) probably has needs that can only be fit by a larger airline like AC However, you're right that Westjet has quite a strong route network in the west (including west-->east routes) so it's quite convenient to use if you're in the west.And if you're a leisure traveller in the east there'll still be major destinations you can fly to.


The comment was more about WS not trying to emulate AC rather than doing what they have tried to do the last few years. They do have a loyal base in Western Canada and that should be the focus of their business (which they seem to now be doing). The 787's were probably not the right move. Canada is somewhat like Australia where Virgin Australia has rejigged their business to focus on a narrow body domestic market - it seems WS is doing the same thing. Canada, like Australia, can really only support one major international carrier, and AC is so far out in front that trying to complete with them seems the wrong thing to do. The comment about their new CEO simply referenced his track record, which doesn't seem to be great. Maybe he will have more success with WS after the change in strategy.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Hockeyfan125 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
Route specific I know, but how is YYC IAH looking for WS? They seem to be 9 weekly and going to 11 weekly soon. AC does not restart until late October but I think double daily then. UA is going to one daily now and IIRC this route is one of the few JV carveouts for AC and UA.

I always fly UA on the route (and UA IAH EDM which thankfully restarts in late October) but might go free-agent and try WS on the route later this summer.


WestJet Calgary YYC- Houston IAH is doing just fine against the competition with UA/AC on the same route.

Actually looks like United Airlines has removed the Edmonton YEG-Houston IAH nonstop flights from it’s schedules indefinitely & it’s available for booking with a connection via Denver on UA YEG- DEN nonstop flights.

AC Calgary- Houston IAH is still planned to resume late October 2022.


Very good to see
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:02 pm

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
IceCream wrote:
EdmFlyBoi wrote:
AC will just keep growing. They just added YVR-BKK and will continue to grow YVR as their transpacific gateway. The XLR’s will allow transcon lie flat J on many more routes. I live in the west and as an international traveller (both business and leisure) WS just doesn’t offer enough of a route structure or FF benefits to make them worthwhile. I guess the “home town airline” concept is appealing to some, if your travel is restricted to western North America, but when you need to go beyond that WS just doesn’t cut it.

It is interesting they hired the former CEO of Austrian, which has essentially been gutted by their parent company with Wizz eating their lunch at VIE. Austrian has hardly any wide bodies left either. Not a rip roaring success.

If they are returning to their roots (and original routes), maybe AC will take the 787’s off their hands ;-).

Yes, AC is quite successful, but why does WS have to emulate that? Obviously, it wasn't working for them based on their recent announcement. And while I understand the concerns with a few encore routes in the east being cut/consolidated, they're really not going to shrink that much at YYZ.

While a traveller like yourself (so someone who is more of the corporate, busy and sophisticated individual who needs a premium-focused airline) probably has needs that can only be fit by a larger airline like AC However, you're right that Westjet has quite a strong route network in the west (including west-->east routes) so it's quite convenient to use if you're in the west.And if you're a leisure traveller in the east there'll still be major destinations you can fly to.


The comment was more about WS not trying to emulate AC rather than doing what they have tried to do the last few years. They do have a loyal base in Western Canada and that should be the focus of their business (which they seem to now be doing). The 787's were probably not the right move. Canada is somewhat like Australia where Virgin Australia has rejigged their business to focus on a narrow body domestic market - it seems WS is doing the same thing. Canada, like Australia, can really only support one major international carrier, and AC is so far out in front that trying to complete with them seems the wrong thing to do. The comment about their new CEO simply referenced his track record, which doesn't seem to be great. Maybe he will have more success with WS after the change in strategy.


That is a very good point, but I wonder if he's able to take full responsibility for it, or if parent company Lufthansa also wanted him to go that route.
7 787's will be enough for WS to do their summer leisure Europe flights and keep a couple of year round links as well. I wonder if this was sort of their plan all along, since even when they first launched 787 TATL service in 2019 it was mostly summer leisure focused.
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:19 pm

I think the point for many of us here is - we were excited to see a full-service, global airline emerge out of WestJet, and they are instead pursuing a regional focus with leisure travel. They are focusing on sun flying and TATL leisure flying, which are exactly the markets Air Transat covers in the east. And, if they were without 789s now, I think they would have ordered them without a business cabin. As a YYC-based flier, this is frustrating, because as YYC continues to be a fortress hub for WestJet and chases out all other carriers, I am forced to route via YVR or SEA if I want a full-service airline instead of having some direct options. I am also a voracious points flier, and WestJet's loyalty program makes their seats largely inaccessible except via cash, with the notable exception of economy via Skymiles.

I am sure it makes sense for quick profitability for Onex, but for those of us who thought Sims' strategy was going to play out, it's really disappointing.
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:20 pm

IceCream wrote:
I wonder if this was sort of their plan all along, since even when they first launched 787 TATL service in 2019 it was mostly summer leisure focused.


It was not. Originally route concepts had WestJet flying to Asia, to South America, to Oceania.

They launched with TATL because it's the lowest hanging fruit. Lowest risk and easiest market to learn.
 
EdmFlyBoi
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:15 pm

YYCFlier wrote:
I think the point for many of us here is - we were excited to see a full-service, global airline emerge out of WestJet, and they are instead pursuing a regional focus with leisure travel. They are focusing on sun flying and TATL leisure flying, which are exactly the markets Air Transat covers in the east. And, if they were without 789s now, I think they would have ordered them without a business cabin. As a YYC-based flier, this is frustrating, because as YYC continues to be a fortress hub for WestJet and chases out all other carriers, I am forced to route via YVR or SEA if I want a full-service airline instead of having some direct options. I am also a voracious points flier, and WestJet's loyalty program makes their seats largely inaccessible except via cash, with the notable exception of economy via Skymiles.

I am sure it makes sense for quick profitability for Onex, but for those of us who thought Sims' strategy was going to play out, it's really disappointing.


Fortress hub for WS yes, but certainly not the only option in YYC, and I am not sure other carriers leave due to WS's presence. AC has two transatlantic options, one of which feeds into LH's network at FRA and provides one stop service to many, many destinations. There is also the seasonal Eurowings service to FRA. Granted, WS has more nonstop options to Europe out of YYC, but you could argue YYC is pretty well served for a city its size. YYC isn't as in demand a market it was in oil's heyday. Try being located in Edmonton or Winnipeg where the options are significantly less.
 
EdmFlyBoi
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:18 pm

IceCream wrote:
EdmFlyBoi wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Yes, AC is quite successful, but why does WS have to emulate that? Obviously, it wasn't working for them based on their recent announcement. And while I understand the concerns with a few encore routes in the east being cut/consolidated, they're really not going to shrink that much at YYZ.

While a traveller like yourself (so someone who is more of the corporate, busy and sophisticated individual who needs a premium-focused airline) probably has needs that can only be fit by a larger airline like AC However, you're right that Westjet has quite a strong route network in the west (including west-->east routes) so it's quite convenient to use if you're in the west.And if you're a leisure traveller in the east there'll still be major destinations you can fly to.


The comment was more about WS not trying to emulate AC rather than doing what they have tried to do the last few years. They do have a loyal base in Western Canada and that should be the focus of their business (which they seem to now be doing). The 787's were probably not the right move. Canada is somewhat like Australia where Virgin Australia has rejigged their business to focus on a narrow body domestic market - it seems WS is doing the same thing. Canada, like Australia, can really only support one major international carrier, and AC is so far out in front that trying to complete with them seems the wrong thing to do. The comment about their new CEO simply referenced his track record, which doesn't seem to be great. Maybe he will have more success with WS after the change in strategy.


That is a very good point, but I wonder if he's able to take full responsibility for it, or if parent company Lufthansa also wanted him to go that route.
7 787's will be enough for WS to do their summer leisure Europe flights and keep a couple of year round links as well. I wonder if this was sort of their plan all along, since even when they first launched 787 TATL service in 2019 it was mostly summer leisure focused.


It would strike me that WS was trying to chase the business/premium market when the 787's were first ordered. They have refit the 737 fleet with a true business cabin, unlike the premium economy/blocked middle seat they had previously. If they were all about a leisure focus it would have made more sense to be Y and PY throughout the fleet rather than the J cabin they now have both on the 787's and 737's. I think they have recently recognised that the AC juggernaut is simply too big to overcome and they have retreated to what made them money in the past (which probably is a reasonable plan).
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:45 pm

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
Try being located in Edmonton or Winnipeg where the options are significantly less.


YEG and YWG are not in the same tier as YYC. Sorry, I know the population is similar to YEG, so is YOW, but YYC has almost as many passengers as YUL and in 2014, 2020 and 2021, surpassed YUL. Traditionally, YYC doubles YEG's passenger traffic, and YEG doubles YOW. I see YEG as a reliever airport for YYC and YOW as a reliever for YUL.

Yes, YYC has traditionally had good service, and LHR/FRA is great, as is AMS. But we used to have more, and WestJet growing chokes out other carriers like BA, HU and potentially new carriers. What I'm saying is if you are based here and were expecting Sims' version of a full-service carrier you are disappointed. If you only care about cheap economy fares to sun and Europe, then you won't be very disappointed.
Last edited by YYCFlier on Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
YYCFlier
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:48 pm

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
It would strike me that WS was trying to chase the business/premium market when the 787's were first ordered.

Exactly my point as to why the disappointment on the pivot.

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
They have refit the 737 fleet with a true business cabin, unlike the premium economy/blocked middle seat they had previously

They market is as premium economy on the 737. The soft product is not quite on par with business but it's close.

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
I think they have recently recognised that the AC juggernaut is simply too big to overcome and they have retreated to what made them money in the past (which probably is a reasonable plan).

This was always true. WestJet was never going to dethrone Air Canada. But they could have grown into a 20 plane 789 fleet with service to Europe, Asia, Oceania and South America and they could have made money doing it. But this requires long term thinking and Onex isn't about that.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:51 pm

YYCFlier wrote:
I think the point for many of us here is - we were excited to see a full-service, global airline emerge out of WestJet, and they are instead pursuing a regional focus with leisure travel. They are focusing on sun flying and TATL leisure flying, which are exactly the markets Air Transat covers in the east. And, if they were without 789s now, I think they would have ordered them without a business cabin. As a YYC-based flier, this is frustrating, because as YYC continues to be a fortress hub for WestJet and chases out all other carriers, I am forced to route via YVR or SEA if I want a full-service airline instead of having some direct options. I am also a voracious points flier, and WestJet's loyalty program makes their seats largely inaccessible except via cash, with the notable exception of economy via Skymiles.

I am sure it makes sense for quick profitability for Onex, but for those of us who thought Sims' strategy was going to play out, it's really disappointing.


I think this goes even further back to when Greg Saretsky sold the board of directors and shareholders on the global market expansion .Mind you nobody saw this black swan event of the coronavirus pandemic decimating the world. It makes sense , right now, to focus on their strengths, spend their capital wisely by focusing on their strongest markets , especially now as the world is entering into a precarious financial situation post pandemic and with global conflict affecting many factors.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:55 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
I think the point for many of us here is - we were excited to see a full-service, global airline emerge out of WestJet, and they are instead pursuing a regional focus with leisure travel. They are focusing on sun flying and TATL leisure flying, which are exactly the markets Air Transat covers in the east. And, if they were without 789s now, I think they would have ordered them without a business cabin. As a YYC-based flier, this is frustrating, because as YYC continues to be a fortress hub for WestJet and chases out all other carriers, I am forced to route via YVR or SEA if I want a full-service airline instead of having some direct options. I am also a voracious points flier, and WestJet's loyalty program makes their seats largely inaccessible except via cash, with the notable exception of economy via Skymiles.

I am sure it makes sense for quick profitability for Onex, but for those of us who thought Sims' strategy was going to play out, it's really disappointing.


I think this goes even further back to when Greg Saretsky sold the board of directors and shareholders on the global market expansion .Mind you nobody saw this black swan event of the coronavirus pandemic decimating the world. It makes sense , right now, to focus on their strengths, spend their capital wisely by focusing on their strongest markets , especially now as the world is entering into a precarious financial situation post pandemic and with global conflict affecting many factors.

Completely agreed. And once again WS is still going to maintain most of its North American and European destinations. The largest shift will be consolidating/removing encore out east. As much as this might be disappointing it's important to remember that WS will still have a very extensive North American route network in the west, and major/popular routes out east. They're not going to only do LAS or CUN runs now. Destinations like SEA, ATL, IAH, LGA etc will stay.

I'm starting to really think that 20 787's and trying to become an international airline would've been a disaster. That is a huge risk to take.
 
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Aresxerexade
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:15 pm

IceCream wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
YYCFlier wrote:
I think the point for many of us here is - we were excited to see a full-service, global airline emerge out of WestJet, and they are instead pursuing a regional focus with leisure travel. They are focusing on sun flying and TATL leisure flying, which are exactly the markets Air Transat covers in the east. And, if they were without 789s now, I think they would have ordered them without a business cabin. As a YYC-based flier, this is frustrating, because as YYC continues to be a fortress hub for WestJet and chases out all other carriers, I am forced to route via YVR or SEA if I want a full-service airline instead of having some direct options. I am also a voracious points flier, and WestJet's loyalty program makes their seats largely inaccessible except via cash, with the notable exception of economy via Skymiles.

I am sure it makes sense for quick profitability for Onex, but for those of us who thought Sims' strategy was going to play out, it's really disappointing.


I think this goes even further back to when Greg Saretsky sold the board of directors and shareholders on the global market expansion .Mind you nobody saw this black swan event of the coronavirus pandemic decimating the world. It makes sense , right now, to focus on their strengths, spend their capital wisely by focusing on their strongest markets , especially now as the world is entering into a precarious financial situation post pandemic and with global conflict affecting many factors.

Completely agreed. And once again WS is still going to maintain most of its North American and European destinations. The largest shift will be consolidating/removing encore out east. As much as this might be disappointing it's important to remember that WS will still have a very extensive North American route network in the west, and major/popular routes out east. They're not going to only do LAS or CUN runs now. Destinations like SEA, ATL, IAH, LGA etc will stay.

I'm starting to really think that 20 787's and trying to become an international airline would've been a disaster. That is a huge risk to take.


They are an international airline , it’s just the pace and size which would have been concerning going into these turbulent times, especially when the covid-19 hit.

Many carriers shift capacity during times such as these not to say that we are in a recession but probability of going into one keeps increasing.

Just looking at the recession in the early 90’s ,AC reported losses of C$74 million in 1990 and C$218 million in 1991, and it reported that it had nearly two million fewer passengers in 1991 than in the previous year and they sacked 2,900 employees. Worldways closed because of rising fuel costs; 1,100 jobs were lost. Canadian Airlines International cut several hundred staff. These failures were blamed on the effects of the economic recession and the decrease in travel due to the war in the Persian Gulf. And I recall, the bank of Canada was using a high interest-rate policy to fight inflation. Sounds similar to today.

So if one can minimize damage in that situation, why wouldn’t you? Smart efficient moves play to your strengths in times of turbulence.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:18 am

WS has obtained daily slots at LHR according to the W22 initial coordination, likely courtesy of the Russian carriers that were forced to give theirs up.

https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoi ... QwYjY3YiJ9


I’m guessing YYC-LHR will get extended to year-round.

Also be interesting to see if YVR-LGW goes year-round as well, as they have 2x daily slots for LGW.
 
Acey
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:31 am

Hockeyfan125 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
Route specific I know, but how is YYC IAH looking for WS? They seem to be 9 weekly and going to 11 weekly soon. AC does not restart until late October but I think double daily then. UA is going to one daily now and IIRC this route is one of the few JV carveouts for AC and UA.
WestJet Calgary YYC- Houston IAH is doing just fine against the competition with UA/AC on the same route.


You have no evidence of this, as you have no knowledge of the loads or yields. You should probably state this as a disclaimer before claiming a route is doing "just fine".

I can see WS' loads on everything into and out of Calgary and your statement is 100% baseless.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:25 am

Acey wrote:
Hockeyfan125 wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
Route specific I know, but how is YYC IAH looking for WS? They seem to be 9 weekly and going to 11 weekly soon. AC does not restart until late October but I think double daily then. UA is going to one daily now and IIRC this route is one of the few JV carveouts for AC and UA.
WestJet Calgary YYC- Houston IAH is doing just fine against the competition with UA/AC on the same route.


You have no evidence of this, as you have no knowledge of the loads or yields. You should probably state this as a disclaimer before claiming a route is doing "just fine".

I can see WS' loads on everything into and out of Calgary and your statement is 100% baseless.


How do you have access to this? Genuinely Curious?
 
Acey
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:39 am

cirrusdragoon wrote:
Acey wrote:
Hockeyfan125 wrote:


You have no evidence of this, as you have no knowledge of the loads or yields. You should probably state this as a disclaimer before claiming a route is doing "just fine".

I can see WS' loads on everything into and out of Calgary and your statement is 100% baseless.


How do you have access to this? Genuinely Curious?


Because I work at YYC. It just drives me wild when people just say "oh yes it's doing fine" when they legitimately have no idea. Not "I think" or "I imagine" just straight up "doing just fine" when he knows nothing at all.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:48 am

Acey wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
Acey wrote:

You have no evidence of this, as you have no knowledge of the loads or yields. You should probably state this as a disclaimer before claiming a route is doing "just fine".

I can see WS' loads on everything into and out of Calgary and your statement is 100% baseless.


How do you have access to this? Genuinely Curious?


Because I work at YYC. It just drives me wild when people just say "oh yes it's doing fine" when they legitimately have no idea. Not "I think" or "I imagine" just straight up "doing just fine" when he knows nothing at all.


Ah rightly so.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:24 pm

hollywoodcory wrote:
WS has obtained daily slots at LHR according to the W22 initial coordination, likely courtesy of the Russian carriers that were forced to give theirs up.

https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoi ... QwYjY3YiJ9


I’m guessing YYC-LHR will get extended to year-round.

Also be interesting to see if YVR-LGW goes year-round as well, as they have 2x daily slots for LGW.


Would be very nice to see YVR go year round
 
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Hockeyfan125
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:48 am

It looks like WestJet Summer seasonal flights from Calgary YYC to Quebec City YQB is ending /cut from its schedule moving forward as July 5 2022 & its available through a connection in Toronto YYZ on WS Encore.

Only Air Canada Rouge YYC - YQB Summer 2022 seasonal flights is still operating a few times weekly.

Not too surprised that YYC - YQB cut for WestJet, as couple weeks ago WS CEO has said their plans to shift focus to Western Canada & changes for Eastern Canada.

https://calgaryherald.com/business/w...an-for-airline
 
Skywatcher
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:03 pm

Hockeyfan125 wrote:
It looks like WestJet Summer seasonal flights from Calgary YYC to Quebec City YQB is ending /cut from its schedule moving forward as July 5 2022 & its available through a connection in Toronto YYZ on WS Encore.

Only Air Canada Rouge YYC - YQB Summer 2022 seasonal flights is still operating a few times weekly.

Not too surprised that YYC - YQB cut for WestJet, as couple weeks ago WS CEO has said their plans to shift focus to Western Canada & changes for Eastern Canada.

https://calgaryherald.com/business/w...an-for-airline


Westjet's customer base leans towards western Canada origin. I suspect very few westerners visit YQB. It is likely that far more YQB origin passengers visit western Canada and would typically choose AC Rouge.
 
casperCA
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:36 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
Hockeyfan125 wrote:
It looks like WestJet Summer seasonal flights from Calgary YYC to Quebec City YQB is ending /cut from its schedule moving forward as July 5 2022 & its available through a connection in Toronto YYZ on WS Encore.

Only Air Canada Rouge YYC - YQB Summer 2022 seasonal flights is still operating a few times weekly.

Not too surprised that YYC - YQB cut for WestJet, as couple weeks ago WS CEO has said their plans to shift focus to Western Canada & changes for Eastern Canada.

https://calgaryherald.com/business/w...an-for-airline


Westjet's customer base leans towards western Canada origin. I suspect very few westerners visit YQB. It is likely that far more YQB origin passengers visit western Canada and would typically choose AC Rouge.


Like Vancouver, Quebec City is a cruise ship turnaround port. Depending on day there should a good number of passengers heading to/from the US. Not certain if WestJet is going after that market.
 
YEGFlyer
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:52 pm

YYC is just too small of a market to support two carriers on that route.
 
BASE10
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:02 pm

Interesting though because I thought the strategy was to move encore planes out west exclusively. If that's the case YQB will likely soon be losing YYZ flights.
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:52 pm

YEGFlyer wrote:
YYC is just too small of a market to support two carriers on that route.

With two carriers on that route one was bound to be kicked out. Kind of surprised it was WS though.
 
Dominion301
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:28 am

Hockeyfan125 wrote:
It looks like WestJet Summer seasonal flights from Calgary YYC to Quebec City YQB is ending /cut from its schedule moving forward as July 5 2022 & its available through a connection in Toronto YYZ on WS Encore.

Only Air Canada Rouge YYC - YQB Summer 2022 seasonal flights is still operating a few times weekly.

Not too surprised that YYC - YQB cut for WestJet, as couple weeks ago WS CEO has said their plans to shift focus to Western Canada & changes for Eastern Canada.

https://calgaryherald.com/business/w...an-for-airline


Easy one to cut to cull the schedules. Let’s see if it’s back next summer as part of the “well connect the east to the west more” WS claims.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:36 am

IceCream wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
YYC is just too small of a market to support two carriers on that route.

With two carriers on that route one was bound to be kicked out. Kind of surprised it was WS though.

And yet, looking at the loads on the route over the next month, AC has no problem filling it.
 
AWNP
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:48 am

CrewBunk wrote:
IceCream wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
YYC is just too small of a market to support two carriers on that route.

With two carriers on that route one was bound to be kicked out. Kind of surprised it was WS though.

And yet, looking at the loads on the route over the next month, AC has no problem filling it.


Everything is full this summer, airlines aren't cutting flights from a lack of demand.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:14 am

AWNP wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
IceCream wrote:
With two carriers on that route one was bound to be kicked out. Kind of surprised it was WS though.

And yet, looking at the loads on the route over the next month, AC has no problem filling it.


Everything is full this summer, airlines aren't cutting flights from a lack of demand.


So, why do you think WS cut YYC-YQB?
 
Acey
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:20 am

YYC-YQB is not full, that's 100% false. Rouge's flight is not full either, but doing slightly better.
 
AWNP
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:05 pm

Acey wrote:
YYC-YQB is not full, that's 100% false. Rouge's flight is not full either, but doing slightly better.


Was referring to the upcoming flights that have been cancelled. On the whole I would expect loads to be in the high 80s or low 90s this summer for all carriers in Canada, there is very little slack in the system.
 
hollywoodcory
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:55 pm

WS is only selling full-fare J W Y class bookings on YYZ-LGW after October 29th perhaps implying the route is being dropped?
 
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IceCream
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Re: The WestJet Thread - 2022

Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:55 pm

hollywoodcory wrote:
WS is only selling full-fare J W Y class bookings on YYZ-LGW after October 29th perhaps implying the route is being dropped?

Looks like that to me too. I wonder if YYC-LHR ends up getting extended year-round and YVR gets some winter LGW service too?

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