From quickly looking at bookable flights in November there seem to be major reductions country wide, I don't see any increases.

IceCream wrote:

From quickly looking at bookable flights in November there seem to be major reductions country wide, I don't see any increases.

Yes & good example of it like WestJet is cutting Edmonton YEG- Yellowknife YZF route for this upcoming Fall/Winter season mostly starting after September 9 & but I see WS plans to operate few weekly YEG-YZF flights during Christmas Holidays on few select days December 23, 26, 30 & January 2 2023).

Not just WS ,Air Canada YEG - YZF remains (seasonal) too, as last flight is end of September 2022.

Although Canadian North still has daily flights on YEG- YZF this fall/winter on the Boeing 737 plane.

hollywoodcory wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Winter schedule got filed in the OAG tonight and I see the 789 scheduled on YYC-YYZ/LHR/CUN/PVR/OGG and HNL.

CDG now resumes in April instead of March.

LGW should be in there also…

I see LGW resumes April 29. CDG April 13.

Yup, my mistake, it’s not operating for the winter…

Hockeyfan125 wrote:

IceCream wrote:

From quickly looking at bookable flights in November there seem to be major reductions country wide, I don't see any increases.

Yes & good example of it like WestJet is cutting Edmonton YEG- Yellowknife YZF route for this upcoming Fall/Winter season mostly starting after September 9 & but I see WS plans to operate few weekly YEG-YZF flights during Christmas Holidays on few select days December 23, 26, 30 & January 2 2023).

Not just WS ,Air Canada YEG - YZF remains (seasonal) too, as last flight is end of September 2022.

Although Canadian North still has daily flights on YEG- YZF this fall/winter on the Boeing 737 plane.

Good news for Canadian North, they are the lifeline of the north, not just YZF, but points further onward. I could foresee them going double daily YEG - YZF for the winter with their B737 fleet of which some are Combi variants.

Winter schedule published

Also announced new six-times weekly regional service between Penticton, B.C., and Vancouver beginning on February 17, 2023 on WestJet Link along with the restart of domestic connectivity between Edmonton and Nanaimo, B.C.

Highlights from WestJet’s winter schedule release:

Sun and Leisure, Transborder and Transatlantic:

· Restart of 17 sun and leisure routes suspended since 2019

· 45 per cent increase to sun and leisure flights from winter 2021

· 60 per cent increase in transborder flights from winter 2021

· 25 per cent increase in transatlantic flights from winter 2021

WestJet’s investments in sun, transborder and leisure flying are growing across the country with:

o A 50% increase in flights from Central/Eastern Canada from winter 2021

o A 55% increase in flights from Western Canada from winter 2021

Network-wide:

· 65 per cent increase in flights to/from Winnipeg (YWG) from winter 2021

· 50 per cent increase in flights to/from Edmonton (YEG) from winter 2021

· 35 per cent increase in flights to/from Vancouver (YVR) from winter 2021

· 30 per cent increase in flights to/from Calgary (YYC) from winter 2021

· 10 per cent increase in flights to/from Toronto (YYZ) from winter 2021

Domestic:

· New domestic connection between Vancouver and Penticton, B.C., on WestJet Link

· Restart of Edmonton-Nanaimo route suspended since 2019

· 25 per cent overall increase in flights network-wide domestically from winter 2021

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/w ... 24066.html

Isn't the sun destination increase (including a lot of trans-border) largely the result of the Sunwing acquisition?

If so, I wonder what the Westjet portion of the increase is?

Skywatcher wrote:

Isn't the sun destination increase (including a lot of trans-border) largely the result of the Sunwing acquisition?

If so, I wonder what the Westjet portion of the increase is?

The acquisition hasn’t been approved or completed yet, not till later in the year. This is all Westjet flying that has been published for the winter.

CrewBunk wrote:

While all of these “increases from Winter 2021” are a step in the right direction, one has to remember that Westjet was all but shut down during Winter 21/22. By comparison, Air Canada has all but doubled/tripled capacity over last winter. (200-300%).

For a better gauge, compare the schedule to Winter 19/20 before Covid hit the world. For example, a 10% increase of YYZ operations over this low period is a little distressing. How are things at YYZ compared to Winter 19/20?

That's what I was thinking. The frequencies for this winter aren't very much. There'll be a lot of slack.

IceCream wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

While all of these “increases from Winter 2021” are a step in the right direction, one has to remember that Westjet was all but shut down during Winter 21/22. By comparison, Air Canada has all but doubled/tripled capacity over last winter. (200-300%).

For a better gauge, compare the schedule to Winter 19/20 before Covid hit the world. For example, a 10% increase of YYZ operations over this low period is a little distressing. How are things at YYZ compared to Winter 19/20?

That's what I was thinking. The frequencies for this winter aren't very much. There'll be a lot of slack.

I’m thinking they don’t want to further dump excess capacity in the market. Smart

Hopefully third time is the charm for YEG-YCD.

Is it likely that WS was quite successful in sticking to some sun destination routes during the summer, that AC unusually decided to suspend flying to, such as ANU and UVF? Seems that loads and fares have been quite high on most of these routes the whole summer.

CrewBunk wrote:

Aresxerexade wrote:

IceCream wrote:

That's what I was thinking. The frequencies for this winter aren't very much. There'll be a lot of slack.

I’m thinking they don’t want to further dump excess capacity in the market. Smart

I’m not saying it’s not the right thing to do. They have the numbers, they know whether they were a success in eastern Canada.

I understand employee morale is low at Westjet. This pretend expansion over a low period might be a way to boost that.

Morale is low everywhere in the airline world.

https://www.businessinsider.com/air-can ... 2022-7?amp
"An Air Canada flight attendant of over 20 years says she's never seen employee morale this low — even after 9/11 and the peak of the pandemic"

BML87 wrote:

Hopefully third time is the charm for YEG-YCD.

First the 2015 economic western downturn did that route in. Then there was the pandemic. Yep heres hoping this time they can get a fair chance.

cirrusdragoon wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Aresxerexade wrote:

I’m thinking they don’t want to further dump excess capacity in the market. Smart

I’m not saying it’s not the right thing to do. They have the numbers, they know whether they were a success in eastern Canada.

I understand employee morale is low at Westjet. This pretend expansion over a low period might be a way to boost that.

Morale is low everywhere in the airline world.

https://www.businessinsider.com/air-can ... 2022-7?amp
"An Air Canada flight attendant of over 20 years says she's never seen employee morale this low — even after 9/11 and the peak of the pandemic"

She also spilled misinformation

CrewBunk wrote:

While all of these “increases from Winter 2021” are a step in the right direction, one has to remember that Westjet was all but shut down during Winter 21/22. By comparison, Air Canada has all but doubled/tripled capacity over last winter. (200-300%).

For a better gauge, compare the schedule to Winter 19/20 before Covid hit the world. For example, a 10% increase of YYZ operations over this low period is a little distressing. How are things at YYZ compared to Winter 19/20?

Well here’s YOW: All sun routes return to their winter 2019-20 schedule (which is a far cry from the 2015 timeframe when they also served TPA & FLL and flew double that to MCO) including:
MBJ 2x weekly
RSW 2x weekly
MCO 3x weekly

However, domestically:
YYC drops from 13x to 11x weekly (at least for the week in December I checked)
YWG drops from 6x to 3x weekly…no doubt thanks to WO now being there too.
YYZ drops BIG TIME from up to 12x daily to between 4x & 6x/day. Every day has a 737 or two with the rest DH4s.
They say they want to connect east-west better yet still can’t fly YVR-YOW (let alone YUL) year-round. I’ll believe it when I see it.

YOW certainly fares WAY better than YUL that are down to only 4x DH4 daily to YYZ and 5x weekly to YYC. So less than 1 mainline WS flight per day at YUL!

I imagine that this will roughly be the eastern triangle frequencies going forward but come summer 2023, 737s will replace the remaining DH4s.

All the angst about WS in Montreal is amusing.

If you look at any major US carriers network, you’ll figure out what’s going on.

Unless you fly from an AA hub, (ie BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX, PHX, MIA, JFK/LGA or SFO), your trip to ATL, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

In AA’s case, they don’t even operate SFO - ATL n/s.

Unless you fly from a Delta hub (ie ATL, CIN, DTW, LAX, MEM, MSP, JFK/LGA or SLC), your trip to DFW, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

Unless you fly from a UAL hub, (ORD, DEN, IAD, IAH, CLE, EWR or SFO), your flight to MIA or PHX will be one stop.

US carriers figured out the hard way that other than in mega markets, (which in Canada’s case is YYZ), trying to be all things to all people in all markets is a one way trip to Chapter 11.

As for summer 2023 scheds, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what you see published until at least mid Jan 2023.

777luver wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

I’m not saying it’s not the right thing to do. They have the numbers, they know whether they were a success in eastern Canada.

I understand employee morale is low at Westjet. This pretend expansion over a low period might be a way to boost that.

Morale is low everywhere in the airline world.

https://www.businessinsider.com/air-can ... 2022-7?amp
"An Air Canada flight attendant of over 20 years says she's never seen employee morale this low — even after 9/11 and the peak of the pandemic"

She also spilled misinformation

What misinformation?

She’s an FA, not a ground agent, so I’m assuming you aren’t referring to this since she wouldn’t be involved in it: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6544234

jimbo737 wrote:

All the angst about WS in Montreal is amusing.

If you look at any major US carriers network, you’ll figure out what’s going on.

Unless you fly from an AA hub, (ie BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX, PHX, MIA, JFK/LGA or SFO), your trip to ATL, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

In AA’s case, they don’t even operate SFO - ATL n/s.

Unless you fly from a Delta hub (ie ATL, CIN, DTW, LAX, MEM, MSP, JFK/LGA or SLC), your trip to DFW, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

Unless you fly from a UAL hub, (ORD, DEN, IAD, IAH, CLE, EWR or SFO), your flight to MIA or PHX will be one stop.

US carriers figured out the hard way that other than in mega markets, (which in Canada’s case is YYZ), trying to be all things to all people in all markets is a one way trip to Chapter 11.

As for summer 2023 scheds, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what you see published until at least mid Jan 2023.

I live in YUL and have flown Westjet to YYZ a number of times. The Dash-8 service was generally horrible. I could have driven to Toronto quicker as it usually turned out (cancellations/delays etc.)

I also once flew Westjet to Moncton. The flight was mainline, full and problem free. I have no idea why it was dropped.

I flew them YUL-St.Lucia (pretty sure) and MCO a few years ago as well. No problems and packed flights. No idea why all leisure flights from YUL were dropped.

It is not angst about the Westjet failure east of YYZ (even that is debatable now) but more like miscomprehension. We all understand that packed flights don't necessarily mean profitability but given the endless claims that Westjet's operating costs are/were lower than AC something simply doesn't add up.

Flair/TS and AC are quite happy no doubt, especially TS who've added a lot of YUL-YVR/YYC capacity this summer. From what I understand there are a combined 8 daily flights YUL-YVR now (including 2 widebodies). Tough to understand how Canada's second largest airline doesn't even have a daily rotation to one of their strongholds (YVR) on what is likely one of the top routes (#4?) in Canada in terms of total revenue miles flown.

Skywatcher wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

All the angst about WS in Montreal is amusing.

If you look at any major US carriers network, you’ll figure out what’s going on.

Unless you fly from an AA hub, (ie BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX, PHX, MIA, JFK/LGA or SFO), your trip to ATL, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

In AA’s case, they don’t even operate SFO - ATL n/s.

Unless you fly from a Delta hub (ie ATL, CIN, DTW, LAX, MEM, MSP, JFK/LGA or SLC), your trip to DFW, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

Unless you fly from a UAL hub, (ORD, DEN, IAD, IAH, CLE, EWR or SFO), your flight to MIA or PHX will be one stop.

US carriers figured out the hard way that other than in mega markets, (which in Canada’s case is YYZ), trying to be all things to all people in all markets is a one way trip to Chapter 11.

As for summer 2023 scheds, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what you see published until at least mid Jan 2023.

I live in YUL and have flown Westjet to YYZ a number of times. The Dash-8 service was generally horrible. I could have driven to Toronto quicker as it usually turned out (cancellations/delays etc.)

I also once flew Westjet to Moncton. The flight was mainline, full and problem free. I have no idea why it was dropped.

I flew them YUL-St.Lucia (pretty sure) and MCO a few years ago as well. No problems and packed flights. No idea why all leisure flights from YUL were dropped.

It is not angst about the Westjet failure east of YYZ (even that is debatable now) but more like miscomprehension. We all understand that packed flights don't necessarily mean profitability but given the endless claims that Westjet's operating costs are/were lower than AC something simply doesn't add up.

Flair/TS and AC are quite happy no doubt, especially TS who've added a lot of YUL-YVR/YYC capacity this summer. From what I understand there are a combined 8 daily flights YUL-YVR now (including 2 widebodies). Tough to understand how Canada's second largest airline doesn't even have a daily rotation to one of their strongholds (YVR) on what is likely one of the top routes (#4?) in Canada in terms of total revenue miles flown.

For S23 , WS schedule from YVR to YUL is

Apr 30, 2023 - May 14, 2023
4x weekly

May 15, 2023 - Jun 4, 2023
5x weekly

Jun 5, 2023 - Jun 18, 2023
6x weekly

Jun 19, 2023 - Sep 3, 2023
Daily

C-FAJA over the house a couple times today here in Summerville,SC. She’s gotta be ready to be pushed out Boeing’s nest:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3EYw68365aGL6mbN8

Skywatcher wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

All the angst about WS in Montreal is amusing.

If you look at any major US carriers network, you’ll figure out what’s going on.

Unless you fly from an AA hub, (ie BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX, PHX, MIA, JFK/LGA or SFO), your trip to ATL, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

In AA’s case, they don’t even operate SFO - ATL n/s.

Unless you fly from a Delta hub (ie ATL, CIN, DTW, LAX, MEM, MSP, JFK/LGA or SLC), your trip to DFW, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

Unless you fly from a UAL hub, (ORD, DEN, IAD, IAH, CLE, EWR or SFO), your flight to MIA or PHX will be one stop.

US carriers figured out the hard way that other than in mega markets, (which in Canada’s case is YYZ), trying to be all things to all people in all markets is a one way trip to Chapter 11.

As for summer 2023 scheds, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what you see published until at least mid Jan 2023.

I live in YUL and have flown Westjet to YYZ a number of times. The Dash-8 service was generally horrible. I could have driven to Toronto quicker as it usually turned out (cancellations/delays etc.)

I also once flew Westjet to Moncton. The flight was mainline, full and problem free. I have no idea why it was dropped.

I flew them YUL-St.Lucia (pretty sure) and MCO a few years ago as well. No problems and packed flights. No idea why all leisure flights from YUL were dropped.

It is not angst about the Westjet failure east of YYZ (even that is debatable now) but more like miscomprehension. We all understand that packed flights don't necessarily mean profitability but given the endless claims that Westjet's operating costs are/were lower than AC something simply doesn't add up.

Flair/TS and AC are quite happy no doubt, especially TS who've added a lot of YUL-YVR/YYC capacity this summer. From what I understand there are a combined 8 daily flights YUL-YVR now (including 2 widebodies). Tough to understand how Canada's second largest airline doesn't even have a daily rotation to one of their strongholds (YVR) on what is likely one of the top routes (#4?) in Canada in terms of total revenue miles flown.

An all Q400 service on YUL-YYZ will not attract the sort of yield that’s required on that route. CP figured that out 25 years ago with the F28’s. You need all jets AND frequency AND a pile of dough you’re prepared to hemmorage whilst hoping to make it all work. None of the new entrants have anything close to the pockets required to make that work and Porter is taking an enormous risk operating outside of its de facto YTZ monopoly.

WS operated YUL-FLL and dropped it, even through US DoT data showed they operated it with loads in the low 90% range. If a competitor decides its in its strategic best interests to undercut, no matter what it costs them, there’s no point trying to push water uphill. Even Flair finally figured that out in BUR.

I doubt WS ever operated YUL to St Lucia N/S.

AC will always be #1 in Montreal, Transat #2. I don’t follow Sunwing but they probably do ok in the winter, thus WS’s interest in buying them.

It’s no different a situation in PHX where I live. It’s the 7th largest US metro market with a population of about 5m, which would make it Canada’s 2nd largest city. But if you want to go to CUN, PVR, SJD and just about any other traditional sun destination non stop, you have 2 choices. AA or SW. With Sunwing, Montrealers have 3. WestJet makes it 4. Why bother?

Transat and WS have some sort of an arrangement that gives both access to each other’s strengths in the market.

And let’s be clear: If Transat were based anywhere but Quebec, they’d be on a respirator right now. They are not doing well.

Correction to my earlier post. I flew YUL-St.Lucia via YYZ on Westjet. Maybe it was YUL-FLL I flew but pretty sure it was Orlando (also a huge leisure route). I fly a lot and I'm pretty old so individual flights are sometimes a bit hazy.

I believe Jimbo737 is on to something. I think Westjet has more or less conceded the YUL market to Transat with some sort of interchange deal. Westjet is hanging on to YOW by a thread I guess because Transat has such low visibility there (no traffic interchange opportunities). Atlantic Canada/YQB I suppose are largely marginal and are simply being handed to the survivor (AC). YYZ will be the interesting market to see what Westjet does.

As much as Transat is for sure on life support I suspect Westjet is bleeding cash too. Tough times in the Canadian airline biz. Is anybody earning profits? I doubt it.

Some sort of re-positioning/re-alignment was inevitable.

As a longtime WestJet flyer, I have taken a month or two to digest their shift in corporate strategy.

To me, the problems they are having gaining traction in the widebody world stem from them ordering the wrong airplane. In 2014-2015, they elected to go with the B767-300ER, instead of the A330. By happenstance, before and after that timeframe, Amazon went crazy, snatching up every used 767 they could for their Prime operation. Consequently that drove the price of used 767-300ERs up to a price point WS was not willing to pay. I don't think WS could have foreseen Amazon affected the used B767 market the way they did...

After some initial success in European operations with the B767, they looked to expand their widebody fleet and decided to order new B787s. That was doubling down on a mistake (not getting used A330s initially). WestJet does not need brand new B787s. They do need a ~250-300 seat airplane for European service and some high volume southern routes that can fly ~10-12 hours. Used A330s fit that bill much more nicely. I'd imagine for what they are paying for each of their new B787-9s, they could have multiple A330s. So imagine instead of them having 6-7 B787s like they currently have....of them having 15-20 A330s Their biggest competitors in Canada, AC and TS, have both had success in recent years with used A332s and A333s dedicated to European ops. WestJet does not need all the fancy capabilities or long range of the B787. Then tack on the delivery issues with the Dreamliner, and COVID, and you have a perfect storm disrupting their European ops. But in a hypothetical alternative universe, imagine WestJet today operating 15-20 A330s. They would have enough aircraft capacity to hit all the European tourist hot spots from all their hubs (LGW / CDG / FCO / BCN / DUB / AMS & LHR slot dependent) AND also have an aircraft versatile enough to be used for CUN / PVR / MBJ / Hawaii service in the off peak season.

I was surprised and disappointed that they are abandoning YYZ LGW. A third of Canada's population is within a 3 hour drive of YYZ. Plus that flight acted as a pseudo-feeder flight to Emirates, with huge numbers of passengers connecting to DXB and points onwards. I still believe it was successful - they kept it running year round last year at the depth of COVID. I do get why they are retrenching and focusing on YYC. However abandoning YYZ widebody service is detrimental to what they are trying to accomplish as they transition to a full-service carrier. There is massive demand for YYZ London service. To me, the biggest mistake WestJet has made has in not being able to mobilize quickly enough to put aircraft in the market when they had an opportunity.

WestJet does have a solid 787 on board product. However they don't need what makes the 787 such a unique and expensive airplane; the ability to fly 10-16 hours at incredible economics. YYZ LGW is what; 6.5 hours going, and maybe 7.5 hours on the return. YYC or YVR -- London start to achieve some of the aircraft's potential but barely. Same for YYC FCO or DUB, but those services are offered only 2-3 x per week, which dilutes the effectiveness. YYC - Hawaii is 6.5-7 hours, which is under the Dreamliner's sweet spot. YYC - PVR / CUN strikes me as more putting one aircraft on the route with 320 seats vs 2 x B737s (174 seats). Maybe there are efficiencies to be gained by centering the B787 ops around YYC. I don't know. Were I in route planning, I'd be trying something that utilizes the 787 the way it should, like YYC - DXB (or even YVR DXB), which is guaranteed to be successful, as EK has massive demand for Canada and nowhere near enough seats, or possibly YYC - Seoul, or YVR - SYD, which historically has high demand.

I'm looking forward to WestJet's continued widebody operations. I have watched with considerable interest as they migrated into this segment of the market. I still think that they can be successful, but their strategy will need refining in the next few years. With 6-7 B787s....you might as well have none. The fleet is so small that it almost inhibits stretching the aircraft's abilities as replacements aren't readily available in case of maintenance issues. They need to get to 10-20....but whether the new CEO wants to go in that direction or not is another things.

Fingers crossed, always, for this remarkable airline!

From January onwards YHZ-YYT is suspended, and YYZ-YXU is down to 4x weekly, YYZ-YQM is down to 3x weekly, and YYZ-YQT is down to 1x daily. YHZ-YUL is completely cut as well. I expect to see YQM and YXU cut next, I don't know what'll happen to YQT though.
Does Westjet seem to be in a cutting/shrinking phase?

Skywatcher wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

All the angst about WS in Montreal is amusing.

If you look at any major US carriers network, you’ll figure out what’s going on.

Unless you fly from an AA hub, (ie BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX, PHX, MIA, JFK/LGA or SFO), your trip to ATL, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

In AA’s case, they don’t even operate SFO - ATL n/s.

Unless you fly from a Delta hub (ie ATL, CIN, DTW, LAX, MEM, MSP, JFK/LGA or SLC), your trip to DFW, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

Unless you fly from a UAL hub, (ORD, DEN, IAD, IAH, CLE, EWR or SFO), your flight to MIA or PHX will be one stop.

US carriers figured out the hard way that other than in mega markets, (which in Canada’s case is YYZ), trying to be all things to all people in all markets is a one way trip to Chapter 11.

As for summer 2023 scheds, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what you see published until at least mid Jan 2023.

I live in YUL and have flown Westjet to YYZ a number of times. The Dash-8 service was generally horrible. I could have driven to Toronto quicker as it usually turned out (cancellations/delays etc.)

I also once flew Westjet to Moncton. The flight was mainline, full and problem free. I have no idea why it was dropped.

I flew them YUL-St.Lucia (pretty sure) and MCO a few years ago as well. No problems and packed flights. No idea why all leisure flights from YUL were dropped.

It is not angst about the Westjet failure east of YYZ (even that is debatable now) but more like miscomprehension. We all understand that packed flights don't necessarily mean profitability but given the endless claims that Westjet's operating costs are/were lower than AC something simply doesn't add up.

Flair/TS and AC are quite happy no doubt, especially TS who've added a lot of YUL-YVR/YYC capacity this summer. From what I understand there are a combined 8 daily flights YUL-YVR now (including 2 widebodies). Tough to understand how Canada's second largest airline doesn't even have a daily rotation to one of their strongholds (YVR) on what is likely one of the top routes (#4?) in Canada in terms of total revenue miles flown.

YUL-YVR is probably about #8 domestically for O&D traffic. But yeah not flying it even summer-seasonal like they do to YOW is a head-scratcher.

I forgot to mention above YOW-YHZ survives 3x weekly DH4 this winter.

3x weekly DH4, on a market like that, honestly why bother?

With WestJet operating such a limited schedule on the east coast for this winter, is it likely that other airlines will pick up the slack out east where WestJet suspends or significantly cuts back routes and refocusses on the west? Surely stopping service to certain markets for the whole winter (such as YQY, YFC, YDF, and especially YQB which is a fairly large city) will affect their reputation in those markets.

Dominion301 wrote:

Skywatcher wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

All the angst about WS in Montreal is amusing.

If you look at any major US carriers network, you’ll figure out what’s going on.

Unless you fly from an AA hub, (ie BOS, ORD, DFW, LAX, PHX, MIA, JFK/LGA or SFO), your trip to ATL, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

In AA’s case, they don’t even operate SFO - ATL n/s.

Unless you fly from a Delta hub (ie ATL, CIN, DTW, LAX, MEM, MSP, JFK/LGA or SLC), your trip to DFW, a competitors fortress hub, will be one stop.

Unless you fly from a UAL hub, (ORD, DEN, IAD, IAH, CLE, EWR or SFO), your flight to MIA or PHX will be one stop.

US carriers figured out the hard way that other than in mega markets, (which in Canada’s case is YYZ), trying to be all things to all people in all markets is a one way trip to Chapter 11.

As for summer 2023 scheds, I wouldn’t put too much stock in what you see published until at least mid Jan 2023.

I live in YUL and have flown Westjet to YYZ a number of times. The Dash-8 service was generally horrible. I could have driven to Toronto quicker as it usually turned out (cancellations/delays etc.)

I also once flew Westjet to Moncton. The flight was mainline, full and problem free. I have no idea why it was dropped.

I flew them YUL-St.Lucia (pretty sure) and MCO a few years ago as well. No problems and packed flights. No idea why all leisure flights from YUL were dropped.

It is not angst about the Westjet failure east of YYZ (even that is debatable now) but more like miscomprehension. We all understand that packed flights don't necessarily mean profitability but given the endless claims that Westjet's operating costs are/were lower than AC something simply doesn't add up.

Flair/TS and AC are quite happy no doubt, especially TS who've added a lot of YUL-YVR/YYC capacity this summer. From what I understand there are a combined 8 daily flights YUL-YVR now (including 2 widebodies). Tough to understand how Canada's second largest airline doesn't even have a daily rotation to one of their strongholds (YVR) on what is likely one of the top routes (#4?) in Canada in terms of total revenue miles flown.

YUL-YVR is probably about #8 domestically for O&D traffic. But yeah not flying it even summer-seasonal like they do to YOW is a head-scratcher.

I forgot to mention above YOW-YHZ survives 3x weekly DH4 this winter.

Well Vancouver YVR - Montreal YUL will have 3 airlines flying it this upcoming winter season, as Air Transat is also adding competition on it for Air Canada & Flair. Air Transat is 6 weekly in the month on November/December & from January 2023 onwards it’s 4x weekly until end of April.

It’s okay WestJet doesn’t fly the YVR - YUL in the winter, as Calgary YYC - Montreal YUL this winter is on WS is up to 5x weekly which makes sense to consolidate it through YYC.

YYC- YUL will 3 Airlines flying it too this Winter with Air Canada (AC) 3x Daily, WS up to 5x weekly mostly with additional 6 weekly flight from December 18 - January 6 2023 & the week of February 5-10th & Flair is 3x weekly.

I wonder if WS leaving YQB for the winter might make AF change their CDG-YQB flight to year-round as WS YYZ-YQB was AF's only codeshare for their flight to Paris when no direct flight were available.

F8 is already at 3x weekly on that route but WestJet can only do 5x weekly, with supposed big feed, a hub on one end, interlining and codeshares...Doesn't bode well...

YEGFlyer wrote:

F8 is already at 3x weekly on that route but WestJet can only do 5x weekly, with supposed big feed, a hub on one end, interlining and codeshares...Doesn't bode well...

I mean pre pandemic it was 6x weekly...at the end of the day YUL isn't a major market for Westjet. I don't understand what you mean by it "doesn't bode well." Westjet's not going to cease to exist or dehub YYC or something. if anything Flair is much more at risk than WS...just saying.

IceCream wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

F8 is already at 3x weekly on that route but WestJet can only do 5x weekly, with supposed big feed, a hub on one end, interlining and codeshares...Doesn't bode well...

I mean pre pandemic it was 6x weekly...at the end of the day YUL isn't a major market for Westjet. I don't understand what you mean by it "doesn't bode well." Westjet's not going to cease to exist or dehub YYC or something. if anything Flair is much more at risk than WS...just saying.

Precisely. Also Westjet will be daily in peak summer for 2023 for YUL YVR . Let us see how well F8 does in that franco Canadian market.

cirrusdragoon wrote:

IceCream wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

F8 is already at 3x weekly on that route but WestJet can only do 5x weekly, with supposed big feed, a hub on one end, interlining and codeshares...Doesn't bode well...

I mean pre pandemic it was 6x weekly...at the end of the day YUL isn't a major market for Westjet. I don't understand what you mean by it "doesn't bode well." Westjet's not going to cease to exist or dehub YYC or something. if anything Flair is much more at risk than WS...just saying.

Precisely. Also Westjet will be daily in peak summer for 2023 for YUL YVR . Let us see how well F8 does in that franco Canadian market.

The domestic Canada market (non-Florida USA too) is not necessarily "franco" from YUL. If anything anglo Quebecers, "rest of Canada" anglos and other nationalities are the predominant passengers on these types of flights based on the many such flights I've been on over the years. What I'm saying is that there is no overwhelming inherent benefit for TS or AC on these particular routes (YUL-YYC/YVR/YEG/YWG/YHZ etc).

cirrusdragoon wrote:

IceCream wrote:

YEGFlyer wrote:

F8 is already at 3x weekly on that route but WestJet can only do 5x weekly, with supposed big feed, a hub on one end, interlining and codeshares...Doesn't bode well...

I mean pre pandemic it was 6x weekly...at the end of the day YUL isn't a major market for Westjet. I don't understand what you mean by it "doesn't bode well." Westjet's not going to cease to exist or dehub YYC or something. if anything Flair is much more at risk than WS...just saying.

Precisely. Also Westjet will be daily in peak summer for 2023 for YUL YVR . Let us see how well F8 does in that franco Canadian market.

Imagine thinking that a 3x weekly route somehow shows that the second largest airline of a country is entering dark times? If anything YVR/YYC-YUL will have capacity bumps next summer, like the example you brought up.

Now that I think about it WS is being very pragmatic with its winter schedule especially in these more turbulent times.

IceCream wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

IceCream wrote:

I mean pre pandemic it was 6x weekly...at the end of the day YUL isn't a major market for Westjet. I don't understand what you mean by it "doesn't bode well." Westjet's not going to cease to exist or dehub YYC or something. if anything Flair is much more at risk than WS...just saying.

Precisely. Also Westjet will be daily in peak summer for 2023 for YUL YVR . Let us see how well F8 does in that franco Canadian market.

Imagine thinking that a 3x weekly route somehow shows that the second largest airline of a country is entering dark times? If anything YVR/YYC-YUL will have capacity bumps next summer, like the example you brought up.

Now that I think about it WS is being very pragmatic with its winter schedule especially in these more turbulent times.

Let us not forget about the new APPR rules taking effect in September. I have my popcorn ready to go for this winters show! Hah

Here is the WestJet Tentative Summer 2023 schedule

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220806-wsns23eu

I still do not understand why they are dropping YYZ LGW. On some days in the Summer 2022 schedule, they were scheduled 2 x B787 service - whether that was adjusted downwards for 787s that were not delivered is another thing. However, to go from 2 B787s to nothing....is disappointing. At least put a Max 8 or two on the route - and I know that they are taking plenty of Max 8s in the next year.

Also - somewhat pleased to see them tread water, what with maintaining DUB / EDI / GLA from YYZ, although all 3 are Max 8s. DUB is 4 x weekly for May 2023, and then daily from June 1st, while GLA remains 4x weekly and EDI stays 3x weekly.

I'm somewhat surprised they didn't add MAN. That is within the Max 8's range, and it would be an easy addition, plus something that they'd planned on doing pre COVID, in Summer 2020, from YHZ. It should work much much better from YYZ.

WS7M8 wrote:

Here is the WestJet Tentative Summer 2023 schedule

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220806-wsns23eu

I still do not understand why they are dropping YYZ LGW. On some days in the Summer 2022 schedule, they were scheduled 2 x B787 service - whether that was adjusted downwards for 787s that were not delivered is another thing. However, to go from 2 B787s to nothing....is disappointing. At least put a Max 8 or two on the route - and I know that they are taking plenty of Max 8s in the next year.

Also - somewhat pleased to see them tread water, what with maintaining DUB / EDI / GLA from YYZ, although all 3 are Max 8s. DUB is 4 x weekly for May 2023, and then daily from June 1st, while GLA remains 4x weekly and EDI stays 3x weekly.

I'm somewhat surprised they didn't add MAN. That is within the Max 8's range, and it would be an easy addition, plus something that they'd planned on doing pre COVID, in Summer 2020, from YHZ. It should work much much better from YYZ.

I am sure there will be more information come January 2023 for S23. Far too early to draw certain conclusions.

cirrusdragoon wrote:

I am sure there will be more information come January 2023 for S23. Far too early to draw certain conclusions.

Very true!

Although as many many folks have noted, the YHZ - Europe B737 flying appears to have been axed. The other side of that equation was they had set up YHZ as a nice connecting hub for Canada - Europe flights. They had mainline flights from YYC / YEG / YWG & even YVR + Encore flights from YYT / YQX / YQY / YOW / YUL meeting in YHZ in the early evening, enabling smooth transitions to DUB / GLA / LGW / CDG. Literally any connection at YHZ is a 5 minute walk, maximum, the airport is spacious and has good food options (aka the opposite of YYZ - people who live in Canada and have transited there will understand). Unfortunately all this - which one could trace back to the YYT - DUB route that they started in the summer of 2014, appears to be gone.

Fingers crossed for WestJet!

Fingers crossed they’re still figuring out YHZ TATL routes and something will come back next summer, it would be such a shame to lose them…especially going from four destinations to none. I have friends who flew on a few of these this summer and reported the aircraft were pretty full, though of course that’s a small sample size that doesn’t speak to a yields or opportunity costs.

I wonder why YHZ-LGW was ended early? Last flight was yesterday.

Good food options? Post security we are talking about?

So imagine if there were YHZ-DUB/GLA/LGW/CDG it gets super crowded the amount of concessions is not enough. But I guess with a smaller terminal things are a bit easier to get around.

WS7M8 wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

I am sure there will be more information come January 2023 for S23. Far too early to draw certain conclusions.

Very true!

Although as many many folks have noted, the YHZ - Europe B737 flying appears to have been axed. The other side of that equation was they had set up YHZ as a nice connecting hub for Canada - Europe flights. They had mainline flights from YYC / YEG / YWG & even YVR + Encore flights from YYT / YQX / YQY / YOW / YUL meeting in YHZ in the early evening, enabling smooth transitions to DUB / GLA / LGW / CDG. Literally any connection at YHZ is a 5 minute walk, maximum, the airport is spacious and has good food options (aka the opposite of YYZ - people who live in Canada and have transited there will understand). Unfortunately all this - which one could trace back to the YYT - DUB route that they started in the summer of 2014, appears to be gone.

Fingers crossed for WestJet!

dr1980 wrote:

Fingers crossed they’re still figuring out YHZ TATL routes and something will come back next summer, it would be such a shame to lose them…especially going from four destinations to none. I have friends who flew on a few of these this summer and reported the aircraft were pretty full, though of course that’s a small sample size that doesn’t speak to a yields or opportunity costs.

At one point YHZ was quite the mini hub for WS in the summer. Unfortunately, I don't think those flights are coming back, it just seems unlikely that they'd cut every tatl route if they wanted to keep Europe flying, and it aligns with their new strategy. Yields might have been low?

Just flew W on a 787 from YVR to LGW and it was a great experience. Definitely better than what I have experienced on AC. I would say W on AC is an upgraded Y product whereas W on WS is more of a downgraded J product.

I’m disappointed that WS is “pausing” future 787 deliveries as I would say they offer an solid overseas travel experience. Hopefully, this is really just a pause and they can expand their overseas routes in the future.

Looks like WestJet 787 will be operating on Vancouver YVR - Peurto Vallarta PVR from October 30 2022- end of April 2023 & similar to the Calgary YYC -PVR in Western Canada service on the WS 787 .

WS 787 service for YVR is now year round.

WestJet in Northern winter 2022/23 season plans to expand capacity on Vancouver – Puerto Vallarta route, through the schedule of Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner aircraft. 1 of 2 daily service will be operated by Boeing 787 instead of 737, from 30OCT22 to 29APR23.

The following schedule is effective from the month of January 2023.

WS2152 YVR0835 – 1532PVR 737 D
WS2154 YVR1020 – 1650PVR 789 D

WS2153 PVR1625 – 1941YVR 737 D
WS2155 PVR1850 – 2141YVR 789 D

The carrier’s Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner will once again operate Calgary – Puerto Vallarta route one round-trip flight a day, from 30OCT22 to 29APR23.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220815-wsnw22yvrpvr

Hockeyfan125 wrote:

WS 787 service for YVR is now year round.

WS had 787 service from YVR last winter too.

The yields WestJet commands on intercontinental flying must be pretty bad for them to use such a capable and “premium” aircraft to Mexico.

Thomaas wrote:

The yields WestJet commands on intercontinental flying must be pretty bad for them to use such a capable and “premium” aircraft to Mexico.

Welcome to Canada in the winter- wide bodies on sun routes is very common as everyone wants to leave the cold. AC has multiple A330s (configured even more premium than WS’s 787) on YYZ-FLL this winter, a route almost half the length of this Mexican route.

Polot wrote:

Thomaas wrote:

The yields WestJet commands on intercontinental flying must be pretty bad for them to use such a capable and “premium” aircraft to Mexico.

Welcome to Canada in the winter- wide bodies on sun routes is very common as everyone wants to leave the cold. AC has multiple A330s (configured even more premium than WS’s 787) on YYZ-FLL this winter, a route almost half the length of this Mexican route.

Also, air cargo becomes a thing during the winter; Mexico is a major source of produce during the winter months.