Swiss Aviation Thread - 2022

SQ22 · Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:57 pm

Welcome to the Swiss Aviation Thread 2022. Please continue your discussion and to post your news here.

Link to previous thread:

Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

DALCE · Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:31 pm

Let’s kick off with the last delivery of 2021, HB-JDD has been deliveres to Swiss today.
Happy newyear everybody

DALCE · Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:42 am

and the next NEO for SWISS, HB-JDE will today be delivered to GVA. I wonder why delivery is into GVA, since usually delivery flights are funneled through ZRH.

Also WK will expand their A320 fleet with 2 frames, according the LH group fleet thread here on the forum, HB-JLS & HB-JLT will be transferred from LX to WK.
viewtopic.php?p=23112347#p23112347

A359bw · Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:04 am

Does anyone know what is planned for the Edelweiss long haul? The 340s are flying at the limit and more routes are to be added in the summer.

Should LX continue to help out?

DALCE · Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:07 am

I believe that LX will continue to provide crew/frames where needed. This will provide flexibility in these unstable times with restrictions and changing entry conditions on a almost daily base.
More 320's give also more room for the 340's, as last summer we saw many Med-routes operated by WK 340's.

Bhoy · Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:40 pm

DALCE wrote:
and the next NEO for SWISS, HB-JDE will today be delivered to GVA. I wonder why delivery is into GVA, since usually delivery flights are funneled through ZRH.

Also WK will expand their A320 fleet with 2 frames, according the LH group fleet thread here on the forum, HB-JLS & HB-JLT will be transferred from LX to WK.
viewtopic.php?p=23112347#p23112347

JLS and JLT are (relatively) young frames, 8-9 years old IIRC (I flew on JLS when it was pretty new in 2013). Interesting LX is keeping some older frames on their books just now awaiting more neos.

LXA340 · Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:20 pm

A359bw wrote:
Does anyone know what is planned for the Edelweiss long haul? The 340s are flying at the limit and more routes are to be added in the summer.

Should LX continue to help out?

AS LH group wants to get rid of it's A340's by around 2025 we will probably also see WK replace it's long haul fleet by then. One option could be to get 3-4 A330's from LX who would then take already a larger amount of A350's than only 5 to replace their 5 A340's. In addition WK will need planes with further range, hence 3-4 A350's could be a option. Nevertheles I think the A350 would be to big for WK and I could see them better off with the Dreamliner, or the A330 NEO but doesn't look like LH group will order it at this stage.

Not to forget the oldest A320's in WK's fleet are also slowly due to be replaced; HB-IHX,Y and Z.

DUSZRH · Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:02 pm

Bhoy wrote:
DALCE wrote:
and the next NEO for SWISS, HB-JDE will today be delivered to GVA. I wonder why delivery is into GVA, since usually delivery flights are funneled through ZRH.

Also WK will expand their A320 fleet with 2 frames, according the LH group fleet thread here on the forum, HB-JLS & HB-JLT will be transferred from LX to WK.
viewtopic.php?p=23112347#p23112347

JLS and JLT are (relatively) young frames, 8-9 years old IIRC (I flew on JLS when it was pretty new in 2013). Interesting LX is keeping some older frames on their books just now awaiting more neos.

I expect the younger CEOs to move to WK, while LX maintains a NEO fleet. So it kind of makes sense that the youngest move to WK, the oldest get retired, as new NEOs are delivered.

alphairspace · Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:31 pm

LXA340 wrote:
A359bw wrote:
Does anyone know what is planned for the Edelweiss long haul? The 340s are flying at the limit and more routes are to be added in the summer.

Should LX continue to help out?

AS LH group wants to get rid of it's A340's by around 2025 we will probably also see WK replace it's long haul fleet by then. One option could be to get 3-4 A330's from LX who would then take already a larger amount of A350's than only 5 to replace their 5 A340's. In addition WK will need planes with further range, hence 3-4 A350's could be a option. Nevertheles I think the A350 would be to big for WK and I could see them better off with the Dreamliner, or the A330 NEO but doesn't look like LH group will order it at this stage.

Not to forget the oldest A320's in WK's fleet are also slowly due to be replaced; HB-IHX,Y and Z.

I doubt them getting any A330. Keep in mind that they still have 2 A330 currently flying for Eurowings Discover. I don’t know if we ever see them back in the WK livery. So WK needs at least 6 longhaul aircraft to be replaced, because leisure traffic will return to pre covid level 100% if not more as you can see that they’ve planned with more shorthaul aircrafts than ever before in summer 2022.
As you’ve mentioned there is the range issue with the A330. They could easily be the workhorse for PUJ, MCT, LAS, DEN etc. But i don’t think that its worth having a fleet of maybe 2 A330.
Btw, their A340s have over 300 seats and they’re not struggling to fill the plane. A350 would be the the logic successor and the 787 at WK would surprise me. But we‘ll see

DALCE · Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:22 pm

LX will re-activate IJL & IJQ and these will stay a little longer in the fleet to cover for the ‘loss’ of JLS & JLT.
Longhaul still has a few years, expect a decision later this year, early next year.

DALCE · Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:54 pm

To make it a little bit more clear, I meamt longhaul Edelweiss. SWISS is getting 350’s, the 787 is deemed too small for a lay-out including First Class.

alphairspace · Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:06 pm

Source? Didn't they say once that the decision will be made in May or something like that

Btw other question, as you've mentioned IJL/IJQ come back this summer in contrast to the Star Alliance tails JM/JN/JO. As a result LX has no active SA livery tails. Doesn't SA require for their membres a certain amount of the fleet in % covered with the livery.

MartijnNL · Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:07 pm

alphairspace wrote:
Btw other question, as you've mentioned IJL/IJQ come back this summer in contrast to the Star Alliance tails JM/JN/JO. As a result LX has no active SA livery tails.

That's good to hear. The Star Alliance livery looks terrible.

DALCE · Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:09 pm

The choico for 350 over 789 was mentioned in a speech by Dieter Vranckx some months ago if I recall correctly. Don’t remember the exact details anymore.

Perhaps one of the new to be delivered 320/321 Neo’s will feature Star-livery not sure. You’re right about the amount of tails that need to be in Star livery, not sure how this currently works during the pandemic. Can imagine the members have more important topics to deal with.

alphairspace · Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:44 pm

Everything looks pretty pro A350 at the moment imo. The A350 is too big for VIE and leads me to the 787 for OS. And LH hasn't that many 787 ordered and it's confirmed that there's a considerable proportion going to FRA. Although the 787 would be a good successor for all the a330 with the huge advantage of the range, because all LX a330 have no center tank and can get quite limited for some destinations. But they'll be flying around for the next decade I guess.
At the moment the A340 need to be replaced and with the new W class and the obligatory F at LX, the A350 is more logical than the 787

How many do you think they are going to get? Can't really see more than 5 tails at the moment

A359bw · Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:29 am

alphairspace wrote:
Everything looks pretty pro A350 at the moment imo. The A350 is too big for VIE and leads me to the 787 for OS. And LH hasn't that many 787 ordered and it's confirmed that there's a considerable proportion going to FRA. Although the 787 would be a good successor for all the a330 with the huge advantage of the range, because all LX a330 have no center tank and can get quite limited for some destinations. But they'll be flying around for the next decade I guess.
At the moment the A340 need to be replaced and with the new W class and the obligatory F at LX, the A350 is more logical than the 787

How many do you think they are going to get? Can't really see more than 5 tails at the moment

I think they are planning 10 a350 for LX until 2029 and 7 a350 until 2027 for WK

zkojq · Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:34 pm

alphairspace wrote:
Btw other question, as you've mentioned IJL/IJQ come back this summer in contrast to the Star Alliance tails JM/JN/JO. As a result LX has no active SA livery tails. Doesn't SA require for their membres a certain amount of the fleet in % covered with the livery.

Based on a relevant thread here a few years ago, I believe they do require it but don't seem to enforce it. I think the requirement was a minimum of one in fifty aircraft (?) and it had to be an aircraft that flew internationally. Air New Zealand has been for more than a year without a Star Alliance livery but never met the one in fifty requirement in the first place. Whatever the rules, I'm sure that flexibility will be extended to the carriers given the pandemic.

HBJZA · Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:19 am

After announcing the launch of Enfidha NBE trice weekly from GVA starting in March, easyJet Switzerland just announced the openeing of Izmir ADB also trice weekly from GVA starting in March.

PhilInBRN · Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:33 am

Some route news from Bern airport, where activities are ramping up again after the demise of Skywork.

The following destinations will be served in Summer season 2021:
- PMI with Helvetic E290/295 2x weekly
- HER with Helvetic E290/295 2x weekly
- RHO with 2L 1x weekly
- KGS with 2L 1x weekly
- AYT with 2L 1x weekly
- LCA with 2L 1x weekly
- Lübeck with Lübeck Air (optb Air Alsie) ATR 72 2x weekly
- Heringsdorf with Lübeck Air ATR 72 1x weekly
- Olbia with Lübeck Air Embraer 190 1x weekly
- Jerez with Lübeck Air Embraer 190 1x weekly

Flights by Lübeck Air are marketed in partnership with Bern virtual airline FlyBair.
Flights by Helvetic are offered by major Swiss tour operators.

Furthermore, weekly flights to Elba and Portoroz will be offered by Swiss Flight Services operating a King Air 350.

Antalya and Portoroz are first-time destinations from Bern.
Airport management is quite optimistic given the fact that Helvetic flights in Summer 2020 (albeit very limited) were full by 90%.

LXA340 · Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:45 pm

A359bw wrote:
alphairspace wrote:
Everything looks pretty pro A350 at the moment imo. The A350 is too big for VIE and leads me to the 787 for OS. And LH hasn't that many 787 ordered and it's confirmed that there's a considerable proportion going to FRA. Although the 787 would be a good successor for all the a330 with the huge advantage of the range, because all LX a330 have no center tank and can get quite limited for some destinations. But they'll be flying around for the next decade I guess.
At the moment the A340 need to be replaced and with the new W class and the obligatory F at LX, the A350 is more logical than the 787

How many do you think they are going to get? Can't really see more than 5 tails at the moment

I think they are planning 10 a350 for LX until 2029 and 7 a350 until 2027 for WK

The number makes sense, we have 5 A340's to replace at LX and 5 A333's that were removed from the fleet, hence depending how demand will develop the lost capacity will be compensated by new A350's. Then As of 2029 the remaining A333's would be replaced by A350's. For WK simmilar game, we will see the 4 A340's be replaced + additional capacity added with increasing demand. Nevertheless given that leasure travel is comming back much quicker to pre mandemic levels I guess we will see WK either get those 2 A333's given to EW return or other aircraft of the group to be added to increase long haul capacity.

A359bw · Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:38 am

LXA340 wrote:
A359bw wrote:
alphairspace wrote:
Everything looks pretty pro A350 at the moment imo. The A350 is too big for VIE and leads me to the 787 for OS. And LH hasn't that many 787 ordered and it's confirmed that there's a considerable proportion going to FRA. Although the 787 would be a good successor for all the a330 with the huge advantage of the range, because all LX a330 have no center tank and can get quite limited for some destinations. But they'll be flying around for the next decade I guess.
At the moment the A340 need to be replaced and with the new W class and the obligatory F at LX, the A350 is more logical than the 787

How many do you think they are going to get? Can't really see more than 5 tails at the moment

I think they are planning 10 a350 for LX until 2029 and 7 a350 until 2027 for WK

The number makes sense, we have 5 A340's to replace at LX and 5 A333's that were removed from the fleet, hence depending how demand will develop the lost capacity will be compensated by new A350's. Then As of 2029 the remaining A333's would be replaced by A350's. For WK simmilar game, we will see the 4 A340's be replaced + additional capacity added with increasing demand. Nevertheless given that leasure travel is comming back much quicker to pre mandemic levels I guess we will see WK either get those 2 A333's given to EW return or other aircraft of the group to be added to increase long haul capacity.

WK could get aircraft next year and I could imagine that they would take existing 350s from the group. The four 343s are already flying at the limit.

AntonovA330 · Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:57 am

As Premium Economy is currently being installed, the first flight will apparently take place on March 3rd to MIA. There were some ads in tabloids looking for content creators reporting about it.

Someone83 · Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:50 am

Noticed at ch-aviation that Swiss is wetleasing 2 E195-E2s. Behind a paywall so cant see any details, but assume these are coming from Helvetic?

Heavierthanair · Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:57 pm

Swiss is using a B77W to Kyiv primarily to evacuate Swiss citizens today, sadly I guess the last flight for some time

https://www.flightradar24.com/SWR2291/2ae1d6e8

mercure1 · Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:57 pm

Helvetic says it plans to operate six aircraft for Swiss in summer 2022. They says Swiss breached their wet lease contract when it decided to operate only four of eight E190.

https://aviation.direct/en/26515-2

Someone83 wrote:
Noticed at ch-aviation that Swiss is wetleasing 2 E195-E2s. Behind a paywall so cant see any details, but assume these are coming from Helvetic?

Yes pair of E195E2s are part of the 6 Swiss is leasing this summer.

ANITIX87 · Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:55 pm

Is there not going to be a non-stop JFK-GVA this summer? I don't see any availability in May.

a350lover · Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:17 am

The flight is already operating with a A330 3x/w at the moment. Increases to 5x/w in April and May.

ANITIX87 · Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:22 pm

a350lover wrote:
The flight is already operating with a A330 3x/w at the moment. Increases to 5x/w in April and May.

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen it not be 7x weekly in my lifetime (pandemic notwithstanding). Of course it's not operating JFK-GVA on Thursdays, when we want to fly. I guess it's JFK-ZRH for us!

YYZORD · Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:47 pm

Will LX ever launch ZRH-YYZ? I think the demand is there and they have a JV with AC thanks to the Lufthansa Group.

davidjohnson6 · Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:54 pm

Why do LX need to launch ZRH-YYZ when Air Canada already fly the route ? I'm sure there are people on a.net who will tell everybody until the day they die that Air Canada is the worst airline on earth... but to most people, Air Canada is more than competent
Perhaps LX could instead think about migrating Edelweiss' route to Vancouver across to Swiss and hopefully pick up more of the business traffic between Vancouver and central/southern Europe, and try to take more of the pax travelling for work away from OW or ST ?

stylo777 · Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:31 pm

Really not needed with A++ JV being in place. AC flies YYZ and LX covers YUL - end of story. Looking at neighbouring Lufthansa Group hub, OS even "switched" to YUL (even though they were operating to YYZ for years...) when AC decided to enter the VIE market. Distribution among all major hubs is key to success of A++

YYZORD · Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:59 pm

What if someone doesn't want to fly AC? I live in Chicago and we get UA and LX flying ORD-ZRH so I have the choice to fly LX over UA but that is not the case for YYZ. I would say YYZ is big enough to support two airlines on this route.

stylo777 wrote:
Really not needed with A++ JV being in place. AC flies YYZ and LX covers YUL - end of story. Looking at neighbouring Lufthansa Group hub, OS even "switched" to YUL (even though they were operating to YYZ for years...) when AC decided to enter the VIE market. Distribution among all major hubs is key to success of A++

runway23 · Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:27 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Perhaps LX could instead think about migrating Edelweiss' route to Vancouver across to Swiss and hopefully pick up more of the business traffic between Vancouver and central/southern Europe, and try to take more of the pax travelling for work away from OW or ST ?

AC also flies YVR-ZRH. AC/LX (WK included) have total domination on Canada to Switzerland. WK's flights are all fully codeshared with LX and their hard J product is identical to Swiss. Not to mention that LH has historically been way stronger a carrier in YVR than KL or AF (the gap widens even more if you add AC's flight to FRA).

YYZORD wrote:
Will LX ever launch ZRH-YYZ? I think the demand is there and they have a JV with AC thanks to the Lufthansa Group.

Swiss considered launching it in 2020 (it was a toss up between IAD, KIX, ICN, YYZ), the first two were chosen in the end. AC is planning YYZ-ZRH with a 787-9 this summer. There's still the possibility of upgauging the route to 77W (the route saw it before the pandemic) before you even contemplate adding LX to the mix.

YYZORD wrote:
What if someone doesn't want to fly AC? I live in Chicago and we get UA and LX flying ORD-ZRH so I have the choice to fly LX over UA but that is not the case for YYZ. I would say YYZ is big enough to support two airlines on this route.

AC's business hard product is a lot better than LX (notably every seat has direct aisle access). Most people value a non-stop flight over the airline, especially if in the same alliance. If you want to fly to ZRH-YYZ and avoid AC on the transatlantic sector then there are tons of other options via a * hub.

eurotrader85 · Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:52 am

YYZORD wrote:
What if someone doesn't want to fly AC? I live in Chicago and we get UA and LX flying ORD-ZRH so I have the choice to fly LX over UA but that is not the case for YYZ. I would say YYZ is big enough to support two airlines on this route.

stylo777 wrote:
Really not needed with A++ JV being in place. AC flies YYZ and LX covers YUL - end of story. Looking at neighbouring Lufthansa Group hub, OS even "switched" to YUL (even though they were operating to YYZ for years...) when AC decided to enter the VIE market. Distribution among all major hubs is key to success of A++

Agreed. Having done the route regularly it can certainly support an additional frequency. And, as you say, maybe some people possibly, just maybe, prefer LX to AC. Shock.

AntonovA330 · Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:52 pm

Seems like after BOM also DEL has been reopened just recently.

Does anybody have the schedule and freq on the TLL route for S22?

PHB1997 · Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:55 pm

HB-JBA (A221) has been at Maastricht now since the 3rd Jan for maintenance. Any idea what it’s in for?

stylo777 · Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:48 pm

AntonovA330 wrote:
Does anybody have the schedule and freq on the TLL route for S22?

up to 5x weekly with a combination of A221/A223/E95-2.
non-operating days are Fri/Sun.

stylo777 · Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:02 pm

PHB1997 wrote:
HB-JBA (A221) has been at Maastricht now since the 3rd Jan for maintenance. Any idea what it’s in for?

SAMCO at MST is doing heavy maintenance checks on the LX A220 fleet.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... aastricht/

davidjohnson6 · Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:05 pm

At the end of 2021, Swiss announced some new routes, one of which was Odesa in Ukraine
https://swiss.newsmarket.com/english/pr ... 3013064b13
Swiss were also flying to Kyiv already

It seems very unlikely that Odesa, and possibly also Kyiv, will be flown in summer 2022. Anyone know what will be done with the aircraft capacity intended to be used for this route(s) ? Just an extra 1x weekly on a few other high frequency routes instead ?

mercure1 · Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:53 am

Swiss auctioning off surplus B777-300ER economy seats.

The surplus seats are being sold in three-seat sets through auction house Ricardo.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... omy-seats/

SQ22 · Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:39 pm

Anyone in the know about why LX was changing equipment again on some long-haul routes, example LX 180/181 to BKK was changed from B77W to A343 in summer. I guess to lower demand. On some dates its back to 77W. Is it due to freight demand?

stylo777 · Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:31 pm

SQ22 wrote:
Anyone in the know about why LX was changing equipment again on some long-haul routes, example LX 180/181 to BKK was changed from B77W to A343 in summer. I guess to lower demand. On some dates its back to 77W. Is it due to freight demand?

I would rather see your answer in the post just one above: back-to-back PE installation in the 77W fleet.

DALCE · Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:55 pm

Both are correct, it’s the combination of demand changes and the extra downtime in the 777 fleet due to the premium economy installation.

AntonovA330 · Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:50 am

HB-JCU is on its way to YUL as LX5050, currently over Scotland. Any idea why?

LSZH34 · Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:00 pm

AntonovA330 wrote:
HB-JCU is on its way to YUL as LX5050, currently over Scotland. Any idea why?

Airbus has partnered with Swiss to charter one of their A220 for a promo tour in North and South America.
The aircraft will also be in SCL for a static display at a local airshow for five days.

caribb · Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:16 pm

Ah that explains it. I just saw it over Montreal an hour ago. Was wondering why it was landing at YUL.

UA173 · Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:22 pm

Does anyone know when or if LX will start services to IAD, I’m hoping they start next year, but I don’t know.

eurotrader85 · Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:45 am

I can't see any new widebody destinations from LX until its WB replacement is worked out. Whether LH decides to allocate some of its 789 order to LX, or as mentioned above a 359 is made for allocation to LX. Do not see LX shifting capacity from another long haul route to a destination already served on LX codeshare by UA. Understand they cancelled the route in 2020 but this was in conjunction with KIX, so can't see them adding it again until demand is back to 2019 levels.

DALCE · Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:22 am

quite correct, LX has even closed down some longhaul destinations : NBO,KIX,DAR,MCT , some are being picked up in a lower frequency by WK though. Since IAD never really started, I assume it will take a while before it will be considered again. But.....in aviation you never know....

alphairspace · Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:52 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Do not see LX shifting capacity from another long haul route to a destination already served on LX codeshare by UA. Understand they cancelled the route in 2020 but this was in conjunction with KIX, so can't see them adding it again until demand is back to 2019 levels.

This argument is also only partially correct. United for example intended to start ORD-ZRH as an addition to the 2 daily codeshared LX flights in 2020.

Now they start it 2 years later although the demand is not on 2019 level. So it's definitely possible.
LX doesn't need the capacities for China flights and don't resume some other destinations for the moment. Why not shifting them to North America, where the demand isnt that bad and almost on 2019 according to the available and provided flights.

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