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LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:47 pm

Welcome to the LOT News and Discussion Thread 2022. Please continue your discussion and to post your news below.

Link to previous thread:

LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2021
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:52 am

Looking at LO's timetable for March, seems like they are planning on boosting WAW-BEG to 11 weekly. I think this summer they had daily flights (or six weekly). BEG is expecting its passengers to grow from 3.3 (estimate) in 2021 to at least 5 million in 2022.
 
artflyer
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:44 pm

A side note:

KRK (a focus city of LO) in 2021 saw only 3,072 mln pax (compared to 8,410 mln in 2019 and 2,592 mln in 2020).

Curiosities:

1H of 2021 saw only 459,000 pax.

Best months of the year: 1) August (462,000 pax), 2) November :) (458,000 pax), 3) October (446,000 pax), 4) December (431,000 pax, 5) September (429,000 pax).

https://www.krakowairport.pl/pl/firma/b ... w-liczbach (in Polish)
 
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mercure1
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:31 am

LOT planning bring back BUD-JFK service summer 2022 3x weekly. Flights were first launched in 2018, but was suspended for 2020/2021 season.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2022-01-05-l ... 32728.html
 
LUKAS10
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:34 pm

LOT Polish Airlines announced three new destinations from its Warsaw hub within the last couple of days. Sarajevo (BiH), Mumbai (IN) and Baku (AZ).

SARAJEVO
https://www.exyuaviation.com/2022/03/lo ... n.html?m=1

MUMBAI
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... a-network/

BAKU
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... zerbaijan/
 
LUKAS10
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:37 am

LOT Polish Airlines to launch Pristina (Kosovo) flights.

https://www.exyuaviation.com/2022/04/lo ... s.html?m=1
 
artflyer
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:50 pm

On the 49th anniversary of opening JFK-WAW route a short film from the cabin.

https://twitter.com/LOTPLAirlines/statu ... iId2Zjm5Xg
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:44 am

I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?
 
LUKAS10
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:45 am

LOT Polish Airlines announced another route. Warsaw to Cairo (five weekly).

https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/lo ... ital-29741

LO149
WAW-CAI
15:00-19:00

LO150
CAI-WAW
11:00-15:15
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:48 am

That's going to be a long layover at CAI.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:32 am

Blerg wrote:
That's going to be a long layover at CAI.

Quite. And yet, it can't offer connections in WAW to many meaningful places (meaning North America), arriving at 15.15? Puzzling...
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:02 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
That's going to be a long layover at CAI.

Quite. And yet, it can't offer connections in WAW to many meaningful places (meaning North America), arriving at 15.15? Puzzling...


Are you sure? I am looking at their departures today and there is Chicago at 16.40, New York at 16.45 and Toronto at 17.00. Plus, on top of these there are many European destinations that connect onto the 15.15 arrival. That's for today, don't know if something will change by the time they launch Cairo.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:27 am

Blerg wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
That's going to be a long layover at CAI.

Quite. And yet, it can't offer connections in WAW to many meaningful places (meaning North America), arriving at 15.15? Puzzling...


Are you sure? I am looking at their departures today and there is Chicago at 16.40, New York at 16.45 and Toronto at 17.00. Plus, on top of these there are many European destinations that connect onto the 15.15 arrival. That's for today, don't know if something will change by the time they launch Cairo.

No, you are more than certainly correct. I just assumed that flights to North America depart in the morning, or early afternoon, as they usually do from most European hubs. That all makes sense, then. But it also raises the question of why LOT has these relatively late departures? While I realize that they have lots of terminating traffic to those cities, the arrival times in North America must make very few further connections available? I don't have time to check right now, but are there maybe earlier departures, too? Are these the second flights of the day to those cities?
 
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OceanAir
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:24 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Quite. And yet, it can't offer connections in WAW to many meaningful places (meaning North America), arriving at 15.15? Puzzling...


Are you sure? I am looking at their departures today and there is Chicago at 16.40, New York at 16.45 and Toronto at 17.00. Plus, on top of these there are many European destinations that connect onto the 15.15 arrival. That's for today, don't know if something will change by the time they launch Cairo.

No, you are more than certainly correct. I just assumed that flights to North America depart in the morning, or early afternoon, as they usually do from most European hubs. That all makes sense, then. But it also raises the question of why LOT has these relatively late departures? While I realize that they have lots of terminating traffic to those cities, the arrival times in North America must make very few further connections available? I don't have time to check right now, but are there maybe earlier departures, too? Are these the second flights of the day to those cities?


"While I realize that they have lots of terminating traffic to those cities, the arrival times in North America must make very few further connections available?"

All traffic to these cities is terminating.

Where would they connect to? At JFK for example, UA only flies to LAX and SFO (and only recently reinstated). LO flies to LAX so useless (unless you'd prefer a non-nonstop trip, switching to a ratty 757), and soon SFO. And at EWR, LO is not part of the transatlantic revenue sharing agreement or whatever that whole situation is (for better or worse?) If you added connecting traffic on top of O&D it simply wouldn't fit in a 787 unless they added frequencies.

"Are these the second flights of the day to those cities?"

For those three cities there are also earlier departures. I was at JFK right before the pandemic and in addition to my flight to WAW around 10/11 PM / 12 AM (I don't remember) there was also one around 7/8/9 PM, and another one leaving from EWR so 3X from NYC.
Last edited by OceanAir on Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OceanAir
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:30 pm

Blerg wrote:
I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?


Would be great if someone who works at LO could share any info about this. It really is uncompetitive at this point. I believe only TK still had the same seats but even they now upgraded them.

Soft product is great. Hard is retro at this point.
 
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Tinek
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:24 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Quite. And yet, it can't offer connections in WAW to many meaningful places (meaning North America), arriving at 15.15? Puzzling...


Are you sure? I am looking at their departures today and there is Chicago at 16.40, New York at 16.45 and Toronto at 17.00. Plus, on top of these there are many European destinations that connect onto the 15.15 arrival. That's for today, don't know if something will change by the time they launch Cairo.

No, you are more than certainly correct. I just assumed that flights to North America depart in the morning, or early afternoon, as they usually do from most European hubs. That all makes sense, then. But it also raises the question of why LOT has these relatively late departures? While I realize that they have lots of terminating traffic to those cities, the arrival times in North America must make very few further connections available? I don't have time to check right now, but are there maybe earlier departures, too? Are these the second flights of the day to those cities?


The evening wave is the main departure wave of LOT. Departures from around 1600h to 1800h to the "west" and long-haul are feeded by arrivals from the "east" and domestic that come in to WAW before or slightly after 1600h. During peak seasons (summer, winter holidays) ther are additional flights in an earlier wave departing. Some destinations like MIA are all year round departing around noon, and LAX is alternating between an early deaprture around 1100h and a late one just before 1700h.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:49 pm

Blerg wrote:
I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?



LOTs business class has always been one the cheapest options out there compared to the competition. LOT knows that it can’t pull the same $$$$ other carriers can charge, so why spend money you won’t get any return on for at least another decade. Poland still has catching up to do to the west.

For the same reason LOTs business class has a good average LF due to the prices. Another reason is the deal with Boeing. Will LOT go to Airbus?? Why waste money on updates when you will change aircraft. You need money for new aircraft. LOTs economy seats have been tough for a bit now too.
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:29 pm

OceanAir wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?


Would be great if someone who works at LO could share any info about this. It really is uncompetitive at this point. I believe only TK still had the same seats but even they now upgraded them.

Soft product is great. Hard is retro at this point.


I think TK has the older ones on their B777 and A330 fleet. They have a new product on their A350s and B787s. I was looking at some trip reports (recent ones) and I have to say it looked quite outdated. Food presentation also wasn't the best. There was one from ORD to WAW and they served a business class meal with some plastic covers, looked quite cheap.
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:31 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?



LOTs business class has always been one the cheapest options out there compared to the competition. LOT knows that it can’t pull the same $$$$ other carriers can charge, so why spend money you won’t get any return on for at least another decade. Poland still has catching up to do to the west.

For the same reason LOTs business class has a good average LF due to the prices. Another reason is the deal with Boeing. Will LOT go to Airbus?? Why waste money on updates when you will change aircraft. You need money for new aircraft. LOTs economy seats have been tough for a bit now too.


I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.
 
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OceanAir
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:59 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?



LOTs business class has always been one the cheapest options out there compared to the competition. LOT knows that it can’t pull the same $$$$ other carriers can charge, so why spend money you won’t get any return on for at least another decade. Poland still has catching up to do to the west.

For the same reason LOTs business class has a good average LF due to the prices. Another reason is the deal with Boeing. Will LOT go to Airbus?? Why waste money on updates when you will change aircraft. You need money for new aircraft. LOTs economy seats have been tough for a bit now too.


That's not true.

LO is always the most expensive option to pretty much anywhere in Europe from NYC. Just play around with Google flights!

LH business class is always 25% cheaper than LO AT LEAST! Sometimes even more.
 
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OceanAir
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:03 pm

Blerg wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?



LOTs business class has always been one the cheapest options out there compared to the competition. LOT knows that it can’t pull the same $$$$ other carriers can charge, so why spend money you won’t get any return on for at least another decade. Poland still has catching up to do to the west.

For the same reason LOTs business class has a good average LF due to the prices. Another reason is the deal with Boeing. Will LOT go to Airbus?? Why waste money on updates when you will change aircraft. You need money for new aircraft. LOTs economy seats have been tough for a bit now too.


I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.


And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.
 
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Alphazone
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:33 pm

Blerg wrote:

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa


I would much rather take LOT Embraer or Q400 than the hard and thin seats in AF and LH shorthaul.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:18 pm

OceanAir wrote:
Blerg wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:


LOTs business class has always been one the cheapest options out there compared to the competition. LOT knows that it can’t pull the same $$$$ other carriers can charge, so why spend money you won’t get any return on for at least another decade. Poland still has catching up to do to the west.

For the same reason LOTs business class has a good average LF due to the prices. Another reason is the deal with Boeing. Will LOT go to Airbus?? Why waste money on updates when you will change aircraft. You need money for new aircraft. LOTs economy seats have been tough for a bit now too.


I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.


And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.

Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:45 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
OceanAir wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.


And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.

Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


I would argue a much better statistic is net income after taxes in PPP. At the end of the day you are buying tickets with X amount of money in your wallet and not Y amount of money that is averaged out and before govt takes a cut. A simple look at the OECD database and cycling through the type of person being paid quickly shows that a single person making 100% of the avg annual income or a family of 2 wage earners making the same % with children yields results that are vastly different than averaged out numbers you presented.

https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=55145
 
SBAer
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:46 pm

OceanAir wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I was looking at some trip reports and I noticed that LO's business class is rather outdated. Are there any plans to improve the hard product?


That's not true.

LO is always the most expensive option to pretty much anywhere in Europe from NYC. Just play around with Google flights!

LH business class is always 25% cheaper than LO AT LEAST! Sometimes even more.


Same from LAX. LOT is hardly ever competitive
 
MalevTU134
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:11 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
OceanAir wrote:

And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.

Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


I would argue a much better statistic is net income after taxes in PPP. At the end of the day you are buying tickets with X amount of money in your wallet and not Y amount of money that is averaged out and before govt takes a cut. A simple look at the OECD database and cycling through the type of person being paid quickly shows that a single person making 100% of the avg annual income or a family of 2 wage earners making the same % with children yields results that are vastly different than averaged out numbers you presented.

https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=55145

I agree on the "income after tax" part, but not that it should be PPP. (And even the table you linked to shows Poland below Greece and significantly below Belgium, Sweden and other Western European countries.) The problem with using PPP is that a person doesn't actually earn that many USD (or its equivalent in local currency). It is a mirage in a way, made possible by lower living costs due to lower rent on property, lower cost of food, etcetera. If food, rent etcetera, in country A was cheap enough so you could buy a month's groceries and pay rent, electricity, gas...for, say 10 USD, then even a salary of 20 USD (which pays you 2 months' worth of expenses) would give a higher income in PPP than someone earning 5,000 USD in country B where paying for the same stuff costs USD 4,000, because your salary only pays 1.25 months' worth of goods and services. But in which country would you have enough money to also buy an airline ticket? In country A with the 10 dollars that you have left at the end of the month, or in country B, where you have 1,000 left? While bread, milk and gas may be considerably cheaper in country A than in country B, international airfares are priced differently, with usually just minor differences between countries.
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:12 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


The key issue for smaller carriers like LOT are the JVs. They strike me as being supremely anti competitive from a passenger's point of view, but they are a real menace for an airline that wants to create feed on both ends. Talk of switching alliances comes up every so often, but that won't solve this issue, LOT finds it hard to get in on the bigger carriers' act. They need scale, that might help, but it's a bit of a catch 22. Given Poland's large and rapidly growing domestic market, they stand a decent chance. Improving that premium product may not be a priority, but given that SU and UIA are out of the game may be net positive for them, even if it also means losing the Ukrainian market for the time being.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2420
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:19 pm

oxonrow wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


The key issue for smaller carriers like LOT are the JVs. They strike me as being supremely anti competitive from a passenger's point of view, but they are a real menace for an airline that wants to create feed on both ends. Talk of switching alliances comes up every so often, but that won't solve this issue, LOT finds it hard to get in on the bigger carriers' act. They need scale, that might help, but it's a bit of a catch 22. Given Poland's large and rapidly growing domestic market, they stand a decent chance. Improving that premium product may not be a priority, but given that SU and UIA are out of the game may be net positive for them, even if it also means losing the Ukrainian market for the time being.

I agree on JVs, but not sure I agree the Russia-Ukraine war is positive for LOT. I guess a considerable amount of their traffic was North America - Russia/Ukraine? That's all lost now. And, together with Finnair, LOT must be the airline most affected by not being allowed/able to overfly Russia and Ukraine on its way to East Asia.
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:20 am

OceanAir wrote:
Blerg wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:


LOTs business class has always been one the cheapest options out there compared to the competition. LOT knows that it can’t pull the same $$$$ other carriers can charge, so why spend money you won’t get any return on for at least another decade. Poland still has catching up to do to the west.

For the same reason LOTs business class has a good average LF due to the prices. Another reason is the deal with Boeing. Will LOT go to Airbus?? Why waste money on updates when you will change aircraft. You need money for new aircraft. LOTs economy seats have been tough for a bit now too.


I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.


And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.


Maybe in the last 2 years?? with Covid LOT is more expensive in business compared to other airlines. LOT in economy was always more expensive then other airlines. I have enough family flying back and forth to tell you that some of my rich family members are so cheap that will fly Lufthansa with an 8 hour connection to save a $100 over LOT.

But I don’t know if you guys read the news, but LOT does not have the money and will not have any for a while. They can’t afford to fix any seats, and honestly economy seats are in a bad shape.
 
User avatar
OceanAir
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:27 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:35 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


The key issue for smaller carriers like LOT are the JVs. They strike me as being supremely anti competitive from a passenger's point of view, but they are a real menace for an airline that wants to create feed on both ends. Talk of switching alliances comes up every so often, but that won't solve this issue, LOT finds it hard to get in on the bigger carriers' act. They need scale, that might help, but it's a bit of a catch 22. Given Poland's large and rapidly growing domestic market, they stand a decent chance. Improving that premium product may not be a priority, but given that SU and UIA are out of the game may be net positive for them, even if it also means losing the Ukrainian market for the time being.

I agree on JVs, but not sure I agree the Russia-Ukraine war is positive for LOT. I guess a considerable amount of their traffic was North America - Russia/Ukraine? That's all lost now. And, together with Finnair, LOT must be the airline most affected by not being allowed/able to overfly Russia and Ukraine on its way to East Asia.


No a considerable amount of their traffic is North America - Poland. You keep making baseless assumptions. They only flew to SVO and LED in Russia.
 
User avatar
OceanAir
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:27 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:39 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


The key issue for smaller carriers like LOT are the JVs. They strike me as being supremely anti competitive from a passenger's point of view, but they are a real menace for an airline that wants to create feed on both ends. Talk of switching alliances comes up every so often, but that won't solve this issue, LOT finds it hard to get in on the bigger carriers' act. They need scale, that might help, but it's a bit of a catch 22. Given Poland's large and rapidly growing domestic market, they stand a decent chance. Improving that premium product may not be a priority, but given that SU and UIA are out of the game may be net positive for them, even if it also means losing the Ukrainian market for the time being.

I agree on JVs, but not sure I agree the Russia-Ukraine war is positive for LOT. I guess a considerable amount of their traffic was North America - Russia/Ukraine? That's all lost now. And, together with Finnair, LOT must be the airline most affected by not being allowed/able to overfly Russia and Ukraine on its way to East Asia.


AY and LO are very different. AY entirely relies on transfer traffic from Europe to Northeast Asia. They are dead. They would have no long haul flights to anywhere if they relied on Helsinki. That is the complete opposite of LO.

And speaking of AY - perfect example. If airlines like AY or TP can have quality hard product so can LO. I shouldn’t even have to say it lol. Ridiculous. LO is legitimately the only real airline left east of Lufthansa. Air Berlin, finnair (dying), Malev, UIA, Aeroflot all gone or good as gone.
 
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OceanAir
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:27 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:53 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
OceanAir wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.


And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.

Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


Except… they legitimately do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fares with an outdated hard product. Lol. You care saying they can’t except they legitimately prove you wrong in the real world.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 1455
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:41 am

OceanAir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:

The key issue for smaller carriers like LOT are the JVs. They strike me as being supremely anti competitive from a passenger's point of view, but they are a real menace for an airline that wants to create feed on both ends. Talk of switching alliances comes up every so often, but that won't solve this issue, LOT finds it hard to get in on the bigger carriers' act. They need scale, that might help, but it's a bit of a catch 22. Given Poland's large and rapidly growing domestic market, they stand a decent chance. Improving that premium product may not be a priority, but given that SU and UIA are out of the game may be net positive for them, even if it also means losing the Ukrainian market for the time being.

I agree on JVs, but not sure I agree the Russia-Ukraine war is positive for LOT. I guess a considerable amount of their traffic was North America - Russia/Ukraine? That's all lost now. And, together with Finnair, LOT must be the airline most affected by not being allowed/able to overfly Russia and Ukraine on its way to East Asia.


AY and LO are very different. AY entirely relies on transfer traffic from Europe to Northeast Asia. They are dead. They would have no long haul flights to anywhere if they relied on Helsinki. That is the complete opposite of LO.

And speaking of AY - perfect example. If airlines like AY or TP can have quality hard product so can LO. I shouldn’t even have to say it lol. Ridiculous. LO is legitimately the only real airline left east of Lufthansa. Air Berlin, finnair (dying), Malev, UIA, Aeroflot all gone or good as gone.


Finnair is not dying. Their old strategy obviously won’t work as well now but they are not dying. They are trying new things - ARN long haul, India, more US routes. They are state owned and would never be left to die.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5481
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:44 am

OceanAir wrote:
Blerg wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:


LOTs business class has always been one the cheapest options out there compared to the competition. LOT knows that it can’t pull the same $$$$ other carriers can charge, so why spend money you won’t get any return on for at least another decade. Poland still has catching up to do to the west.

For the same reason LOTs business class has a good average LF due to the prices. Another reason is the deal with Boeing. Will LOT go to Airbus?? Why waste money on updates when you will change aircraft. You need money for new aircraft. LOTs economy seats have been tough for a bit now too.


I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.


And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.


Let's not get carried away please, Russia is a global super power and they will be back once the war in Ukraine is over. After all, their life was made easy by the fact that their operations in Ukraine are funded by the West and their purchases of gas and oil. Just look at the value of the Rouble. Before the war $1 was 92 Roubles, after the war started it went to 120 while this morning it's at 77.38.

So let's wait a bit more before stating that LO which doesn't even offer a dedicated business class product on its narrowbody fleet has eclipsed SU.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5481
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:47 am

Alphazone wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa


I would much rather take LOT Embraer or Q400 than the hard and thin seats in AF and LH shorthaul.


In that case I have bad news for you. Looking at their B737-8MAX cabin, seems like LO has opted for the same hard seats as their future choice. I suppose those will become the norm in their fleet once they start with their fleet renewal.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2420
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:49 am

OceanAir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
OceanAir wrote:

And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.

Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


Except… they legitimately do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fares with an outdated hard product. Lol. You care saying they can’t except they legitimately prove you wrong in the real world.

Do they? Just played around with my favourite pan-European booking engine, looking for fares in business class in May from STO, FRA, ATH, VIE to NYC, CHI, YYZ, and LO almost invariably came out being by far the cheapest (beaten by a small margin by TP and FI, respectively, on one city pair each). Admittedly, looking instead at fares from North America to Europe, LO is around the 3rd or 4th from the top on cheapest fares, so beaten by a few more airlines in this direction.
Anyway, I hope and believe LO knows what they are doing. If they could have charged enough for upgraded seats, to justify that big investment, I'm sure they would have made the investment. The fact that they haven't tells it all.
(On a side note: if they, as you claim, really "do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fare with an outdated hard product", what does that tell you about their average customer? Why wouldn't that customer pay less for a better product on another airline? I don't believe Poles are that stupid. Do you?)
 
LUKAS10
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:54 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:13 am

Blerg wrote:
OceanAir wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I understand all that but LO has changed over the past decade and I am sure their brand is much stronger now. The stronger the brand, the stronger your command of yields can be.

Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa but they can still offer an affordable and improved product. You have many smaller carriers with a decent premium product.


And Poland already overtook Greece (many years ago) and Portugal (2020) in per capita income, not to mention all of Eastern Europe long ago. And that's GDP per capita. National GDP (the actual economy) is larger than many countries in Western Europe (except UK, France, Germany, some others). You also have by far the largest population in the area.

So none of this makes any sense.

As for "Naturally, they will never be premium like Air France, Aeroflot or Lufthansa"

Uhh.. Russia is gone... DEEPLY gone. Most Russians will never be able to afford flying again, let alone will have an opportunity to step on an Airbus or Boeing again...

So I think it's safe to say they've eclipsed SU.


Let's not get carried away please, Russia is a global super power and they will be back once the war in Ukraine is over. After all, their life was made easy by the fact that their operations in Ukraine are funded by the West and their purchases of gas and oil. Just look at the value of the Rouble. Before the war $1 was 92 Roubles, after the war started it went to 120 while this morning it's at 77.38.

So let's wait a bit more before stating that LO which doesn't even offer a dedicated business class product on its narrowbody fleet has eclipsed SU.



Well, I don't believe SU will be able to compete with LO as Russia is going to remain being isolated for a long time. Additionally, the currency is only strong as long as you can trade it internationally. It's basically impossible to get Russian rubles in any bank or money exchange abroad. So Russia will not be back on track soon, especially SU connecting EU and Asia (with stolen airplanes?). The threat of LO and AY is TK at the moment as Turkish Airlines now provides the smoothest connections between the EU and Asia. Russia's future looks simply bad and the quality of life in Russia will decline even more. By the way, Russia is no longer any superpower; the only global superpower is the US, followed by global powers China, France, UK and a group of hemispheric powers (such as Germany or Australia). Russia is in the fourth category of Regional powers (along with India, Italy or Korea). The country has became irrelevant and now they aspire to harm themselves even more.

Additionally, LO (and Poland) itself still has a long journey ahead if it wants to reach the level of LH, AF, KL. It's going to be a relevant regional player with some global presence but I don't think it's going to happen to be a real global player. I enjoy flying with LOT but the airline needs to invest a lot in its product, branding etc.
 
User avatar
Tinek
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:55 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:00 am

OceanAir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:

The key issue for smaller carriers like LOT are the JVs. They strike me as being supremely anti competitive from a passenger's point of view, but they are a real menace for an airline that wants to create feed on both ends. Talk of switching alliances comes up every so often, but that won't solve this issue, LOT finds it hard to get in on the bigger carriers' act. They need scale, that might help, but it's a bit of a catch 22. Given Poland's large and rapidly growing domestic market, they stand a decent chance. Improving that premium product may not be a priority, but given that SU and UIA are out of the game may be net positive for them, even if it also means losing the Ukrainian market for the time being.

I agree on JVs, but not sure I agree the Russia-Ukraine war is positive for LOT. I guess a considerable amount of their traffic was North America - Russia/Ukraine? That's all lost now. And, together with Finnair, LOT must be the airline most affected by not being allowed/able to overfly Russia and Ukraine on its way to East Asia.


No a considerable amount of their traffic is North America - Poland. You keep making baseless assumptions. They only flew to SVO and LED in Russia.


Yes, but Ukraine was a major market for LOT as well. Especially as a feed to/from the west and TATL. Pre pandemic flights to Kiev, LWO, ODS, OZH, HRK. Pre-war, Ukrainian destinations were one of the first ones to see growth in flight number in comparison to pre-pandemic levels.
Generally the close "east" was a big feeder for LO, that goes for Ukraine, as well as MSQ/Moscow (DME/SVO)/LED.
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 am

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:05 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Just played around with my favourite pan-European booking engine, looking for fares in business class in May from STO, FRA, ATH, VIE to NYC, CHI, YYZ, and LO almost invariably came out being by far the cheapest (beaten by a small margin by TP and FI, respectively, on one city pair each).


LO doesn’t even fly to ATH though. Unless you mean an A3/LO routing with a connection in WAW.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2420
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:24 am

OlympicATH wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Just played around with my favourite pan-European booking engine, looking for fares in business class in May from STO, FRA, ATH, VIE to NYC, CHI, YYZ, and LO almost invariably came out being by far the cheapest (beaten by a small margin by TP and FI, respectively, on one city pair each).


LO doesn’t even fly to ATH though. Unless you mean an A3/LO routing with a connection in WAW.

Probably, it must have been, I don't remember, just put in those 12 city pairs and looked at what airlines came up on top when sorting low-to-high for fares. It may have included codeshares or connecting flights from ATH, but it was always longhaul on LOT.
 
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chrisnh
Posts: 4245
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:51 am

A beautiful sight yesterday as a LOT 789 flew right over my house in Summerville, SC…only 25 minutes from CHS and Boeing. It might be nearing delivery?
 
marcinGDN
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:51 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:45 am

I do concur that LOT has an outdated product. Being based out of WAW and *A SEN I stick to *A and my options are limited to mostly LH. Their product is totally outdated. Even their First Class product is so old. The soft product and crews are average (crew from FRA even more so).
Here LO beats the 5 star airline.

Thus I prefer to take LO non stop or if does not work - connect and take an UA Dreamliner instead of a 20+ year old A343 by LH.
 
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OceanAir
Posts: 32
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Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:58 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
OceanAir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Here we go again... This pops up here every now and then, and the Polish here unfailingly bash me for it, but I will just remind you that Poland's total GDP is roughly the same size as that of Belgium. If you compare it to a country in Western Europe similar in size and population, then that would be Spain. Poland's GDP is 40% that of Spain. But anyway, this is largely irrelevant, because total GDP doesn't indicate how much money people or corporations have for spending on flying, be it for leisure or business; GDP per capita is a far better indicator. There are 2 metrics for this: GDP (PPP or Purchase Price Parity) and GDP Current US$, and the latter is what's relevant for buying goods or services whose price doesn't vary considerably from country to country, such as flights. So, here goes the raw data from the World Bank:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... L-PT-BE-SE

As you can see, Poland's per capita GDP Current US$ is lower than that of Greece or Portugal, is roughly 35% of that of Belgium and 30% of that of Sweden, just to compare a few countries. Figures are for 2020, but not much will have happened to 2021.

So, in fact, it does make sense. LOT simply doesn't have the big and affluent home market required to consistently (not just during parts of the year, or to one or two destinations) fill premium cabins at top dollar fares. Ii think LOT's strategy to charge less, offer a not-the greatest-out-there product, but fill the premium cabins, is the correct one for its position in the marketplace.

And for Russia: Tens of thousands of Russians are "stepping on an Airbus or a Boeing" each and every day, even if they only do that for domestic flights, and mostly on stolen aircraft. But your point on Russia is well taken, of course, but what I think was meant by the reference to Aeroflot was that they had, until recently, a big home market with enough wealthy individuals and corporations to fill a good and decently updated premium cabin on a regular basis.


Except… they legitimately do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fares with an outdated hard product. Lol. You care saying they can’t except they legitimately prove you wrong in the real world.

Do they? Just played around with my favourite pan-European booking engine, looking for fares in business class in May from STO, FRA, ATH, VIE to NYC, CHI, YYZ, and LO almost invariably came out being by far the cheapest (beaten by a small margin by TP and FI, respectively, on one city pair each). Admittedly, looking instead at fares from North America to Europe, LO is around the 3rd or 4th from the top on cheapest fares, so beaten by a few more airlines in this direction.
Anyway, I hope and believe LO knows what they are doing. If they could have charged enough for upgraded seats, to justify that big investment, I'm sure they would have made the investment. The fact that they haven't tells it all.
(On a side note: if they, as you claim, really "do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fare with an outdated hard product", what does that tell you about their average customer? Why wouldn't that customer pay less for a better product on another airline? I don't believe Poles are that stupid. Do you?)


(On a side note: if they, as you claim, really "do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fare with an outdated hard product", what does that tell you about their average customer? Why wouldn't that customer pay less for a better product on another airline? I don't believe Poles are that stupid. Do you?)

It’s not a claim, it’s a fact. SQ was recently offering round trip fares from NYC to SIN in premium economy, on the worlds longest nonstop flight, on a “5 star airline”, for less than LO charges in premium economy from NYC to WAW. Hundreds less. What does that tell you.

It tells me that their average customer is not looking for the cheapest fare and clearly values convenience - flight time, departure/arrival hours, nonstop - more. A radical thought *sarcasm*
 
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Polot
Posts: 13311
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:13 pm

OceanAir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
OceanAir wrote:

Except… they legitimately do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fares with an outdated hard product. Lol. You care saying they can’t except they legitimately prove you wrong in the real world.

Do they? Just played around with my favourite pan-European booking engine, looking for fares in business class in May from STO, FRA, ATH, VIE to NYC, CHI, YYZ, and LO almost invariably came out being by far the cheapest (beaten by a small margin by TP and FI, respectively, on one city pair each). Admittedly, looking instead at fares from North America to Europe, LO is around the 3rd or 4th from the top on cheapest fares, so beaten by a few more airlines in this direction.
Anyway, I hope and believe LO knows what they are doing. If they could have charged enough for upgraded seats, to justify that big investment, I'm sure they would have made the investment. The fact that they haven't tells it all.
(On a side note: if they, as you claim, really "do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fare with an outdated hard product", what does that tell you about their average customer? Why wouldn't that customer pay less for a better product on another airline? I don't believe Poles are that stupid. Do you?)


(On a side note: if they, as you claim, really "do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fare with an outdated hard product", what does that tell you about their average customer? Why wouldn't that customer pay less for a better product on another airline? I don't believe Poles are that stupid. Do you?)

It’s not a claim, it’s a fact. SQ was recently offering round trip fares from NYC to SIN in premium economy, on the worlds longest nonstop flight, on a “5 star airline”, for less than LO charges in premium economy from NYC to WAW. Hundreds less. What does that tell you.

It tells me that their average customer is not looking for the cheapest fare and clearly values convenience - flight time, departure/arrival hours, nonstop - more. A radical thought *sarcasm*

Actually it tells me it is radically harder to fill a flight to Asia than Europe at the moment.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2420
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:16 pm

OceanAir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
OceanAir wrote:

Except… they legitimately do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fares with an outdated hard product. Lol. You care saying they can’t except they legitimately prove you wrong in the real world.

Do they? Just played around with my favourite pan-European booking engine, looking for fares in business class in May from STO, FRA, ATH, VIE to NYC, CHI, YYZ, and LO almost invariably came out being by far the cheapest (beaten by a small margin by TP and FI, respectively, on one city pair each). Admittedly, looking instead at fares from North America to Europe, LO is around the 3rd or 4th from the top on cheapest fares, so beaten by a few more airlines in this direction.
Anyway, I hope and believe LO knows what they are doing. If they could have charged enough for upgraded seats, to justify that big investment, I'm sure they would have made the investment. The fact that they haven't tells it all.
(On a side note: if they, as you claim, really "do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fare with an outdated hard product", what does that tell you about their average customer? Why wouldn't that customer pay less for a better product on another airline? I don't believe Poles are that stupid. Do you?)


(On a side note: if they, as you claim, really "do fill their premium cabins at top dollar astronomical fare with an outdated hard product", what does that tell you about their average customer? Why wouldn't that customer pay less for a better product on another airline? I don't believe Poles are that stupid. Do you?)

It’s not a claim, it’s a fact. SQ was recently offering round trip fares from NYC to SIN in premium economy, on the worlds longest nonstop flight, on a “5 star airline”, for less than LO charges in premium economy from NYC to WAW. Hundreds less. What does that tell you.

It tells me that their average customer is not looking for the cheapest fare and clearly values convenience - flight time, departure/arrival hours, nonstop - more. A radical thought *sarcasm*

Yes, let's pretend that transpacific travel isn't dead, and that that SQ fare was a normal fare. Or, even better, let's just pretend that Poland is the richest country this side of the Ring Nebulosa, and that LOT can command just any fare they like on NYC-WAW, even though the consensus is that seats are less than stellar. But whatever, any of us here can spend 5 minutes on a travel website of our liking and see the fares for ourselves.
Oh, and btw... I'm sure you'll get a bargain fare in business class, on a 5-star airline, to Tokyo or Shanghai as well right now, probably cheaper than what LO charges NYC-WAW....but good luck getting into the country.
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:44 pm

Looked at a flight for my mom from ORD to KRK at end of June 2022 and return at end of Luly, and LOT had economy seats for $790 round trip!!! It would have been unheard off before Covid and this war for prices like that in the middle of summer, especially to Krakow. My friend almost paid that to visit us in Salt Lake City from Chicago, and I told him he was nuts. I remember when buying a LOT economy ticket for $1,300 at end of May few years back, and LOT business seats were usually a $1000 more then economy, and ecoplus was almost just as expensive.

I really like LOT, and the whole 787 and 737Max saga has been a huge disappointment. I always looked foreword whenever LOT made some advancement, but it has fallen back, and yeah LH, and others fallen just as much if not more. I'm not sure which way LOT is going to go now, if new replacement aircraft will be the answer, or a deal with Boeing. But LOT has to update not just the business class, but also economy, especially in the 787!! The sidewalls are almost falling off and the seats are in bad shape. God knows how bad the 787s look now on the inside.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5481
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:12 am

SRQLOT wrote:
Looked at a flight for my mom from ORD to KRK at end of June 2022 and return at end of Luly, and LOT had economy seats for $790 round trip!!! It would have been unheard off before Covid and this war for prices like that in the middle of summer, especially to Krakow. My friend almost paid that to visit us in Salt Lake City from Chicago, and I told him he was nuts. I remember when buying a LOT economy ticket for $1,300 at end of May few years back, and LOT business seats were usually a $1000 more then economy, and ecoplus was almost just as expensive.

I really like LOT, and the whole 787 and 737Max saga has been a huge disappointment. I always looked foreword whenever LOT made some advancement, but it has fallen back, and yeah LH, and others fallen just as much if not more. I'm not sure which way LOT is going to go now, if new replacement aircraft will be the answer, or a deal with Boeing. But LOT has to update not just the business class, but also economy, especially in the 787!! The sidewalls are almost falling off and the seats are in bad shape. God knows how bad the 787s look now on the inside.


A friend of mine flew from WAW to ORD on the B789 about a week ago and she said that the plane inside was a bit worn out but that the crew and and food was good. Load factor was around 50% on that flight.
Actually, she is not the first one to complain about this. I heard many people do the same. Maybe LO is taking its time with refurbishing their planes as they are not sure if they will keep them.

Would love to see LO make the switch to the A339 but I don't think it will happen. Airbus would probably give them a very sweet deal.
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:52 am

Blerg wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Looked at a flight for my mom from ORD to KRK at end of June 2022 and return at end of Luly, and LOT had economy seats for $790 round trip!!! It would have been unheard off before Covid and this war for prices like that in the middle of summer, especially to Krakow. My friend almost paid that to visit us in Salt Lake City from Chicago, and I told him he was nuts. I remember when buying a LOT economy ticket for $1,300 at end of May few years back, and LOT business seats were usually a $1000 more then economy, and ecoplus was almost just as expensive.

I really like LOT, and the whole 787 and 737Max saga has been a huge disappointment. I always looked foreword whenever LOT made some advancement, but it has fallen back, and yeah LH, and others fallen just as much if not more. I'm not sure which way LOT is going to go now, if new replacement aircraft will be the answer, or a deal with Boeing. But LOT has to update not just the business class, but also economy, especially in the 787!! The sidewalls are almost falling off and the seats are in bad shape. God knows how bad the 787s look now on the inside.


A friend of mine flew from WAW to ORD on the B789 about a week ago and she said that the plane inside was a bit worn out but that the crew and and food was good. Load factor was around 50% on that flight.
Actually, she is not the first one to complain about this. I heard many people do the same. Maybe LO is taking its time with refurbishing their planes as they are not sure if they will keep them.

Would love to see LO make the switch to the A339 but I don't think it will happen. Airbus would probably give them a very sweet deal.



LOT is definitely taking their time, I’m guessing the war in Ukraine has a lot to do with this. Once it’s over I’m betting they will go in big into Ukraine. They are finally getting over WAW as the only real airport in Poland, they are going to start new routes from regional airports. Gdańsk is going to get a few, including longhaul as part of Rainbow Tours.

We are still waiting to hear who is the winner of that big announcement from late last year. 50 regional jets, it’s been what 6 months!?!? So even before LOT gets to the wide bodies it needs a decision on the regional jet side.

Also a new one, an E-190 arrived in WAW for LOT as a lease from NAC, ex Azul. We know what happened with that huge lease, but maybe it’s a trickle now?? This will be the 5th one.

https://www.rynek-lotniczy.pl/mobile/ko ... 14294.html
 
Blerg
Posts: 5481
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:53 am

SRQLOT wrote:
Blerg wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Looked at a flight for my mom from ORD to KRK at end of June 2022 and return at end of Luly, and LOT had economy seats for $790 round trip!!! It would have been unheard off before Covid and this war for prices like that in the middle of summer, especially to Krakow. My friend almost paid that to visit us in Salt Lake City from Chicago, and I told him he was nuts. I remember when buying a LOT economy ticket for $1,300 at end of May few years back, and LOT business seats were usually a $1000 more then economy, and ecoplus was almost just as expensive.

I really like LOT, and the whole 787 and 737Max saga has been a huge disappointment. I always looked foreword whenever LOT made some advancement, but it has fallen back, and yeah LH, and others fallen just as much if not more. I'm not sure which way LOT is going to go now, if new replacement aircraft will be the answer, or a deal with Boeing. But LOT has to update not just the business class, but also economy, especially in the 787!! The sidewalls are almost falling off and the seats are in bad shape. God knows how bad the 787s look now on the inside.


A friend of mine flew from WAW to ORD on the B789 about a week ago and she said that the plane inside was a bit worn out but that the crew and and food was good. Load factor was around 50% on that flight.
Actually, she is not the first one to complain about this. I heard many people do the same. Maybe LO is taking its time with refurbishing their planes as they are not sure if they will keep them.

Would love to see LO make the switch to the A339 but I don't think it will happen. Airbus would probably give them a very sweet deal.



LOT is definitely taking their time, I’m guessing the war in Ukraine has a lot to do with this. Once it’s over I’m betting they will go in big into Ukraine. They are finally getting over WAW as the only real airport in Poland, they are going to start new routes from regional airports. Gdańsk is going to get a few, including longhaul as part of Rainbow Tours.

We are still waiting to hear who is the winner of that big announcement from late last year. 50 regional jets, it’s been what 6 months!?!? So even before LOT gets to the wide bodies it needs a decision on the regional jet side.

Also a new one, an E-190 arrived in WAW for LOT as a lease from NAC, ex Azul. We know what happened with that huge lease, but maybe it’s a trickle now?? This will be the 5th one.

https://www.rynek-lotniczy.pl/mobile/ko ... 14294.html


I think I caught that E90 on its delivery flight yesterday on FR24, it was operating KEF-WAW.

Do you mind telling us what routes is LO launching outside of WAW? I know in the past they operated some out of KRK but I think they were 4 or 5 destinations including ORD.
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: LOT News and Discussion Thread - 2022

Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:53 am

Blerg wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Blerg wrote:

A friend of mine flew from WAW to ORD on the B789 about a week ago and she said that the plane inside was a bit worn out but that the crew and and food was good. Load factor was around 50% on that flight.
Actually, she is not the first one to complain about this. I heard many people do the same. Maybe LO is taking its time with refurbishing their planes as they are not sure if they will keep them.

Would love to see LO make the switch to the A339 but I don't think it will happen. Airbus would probably give them a very sweet deal.



LOT is definitely taking their time, I’m guessing the war in Ukraine has a lot to do with this. Once it’s over I’m betting they will go in big into Ukraine. They are finally getting over WAW as the only real airport in Poland, they are going to start new routes from regional airports. Gdańsk is going to get a few, including longhaul as part of Rainbow Tours.

We are still waiting to hear who is the winner of that big announcement from late last year. 50 regional jets, it’s been what 6 months!?!? So even before LOT gets to the wide bodies it needs a decision on the regional jet side.

Also a new one, an E-190 arrived in WAW for LOT as a lease from NAC, ex Azul. We know what happened with that huge lease, but maybe it’s a trickle now?? This will be the 5th one.

https://www.rynek-lotniczy.pl/mobile/ko ... 14294.html


I think I caught that E90 on its delivery flight yesterday on FR24, it was operating KEF-WAW.

Do you mind telling us what routes is LO launching outside of WAW? I know in the past they operated some out of KRK but I think they were 4 or 5 destinations including ORD.


Well I was going thru a list, unfortunately a good number of them were to Ukraine. I will have to look into polish articles, because not many English ones. Honestly might have to wait for an update. Who knows how many of them will actually start in the current environment.

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