Can the CF6 be modified by 2027 to satisfy the ICAO regulations then ? I mean, we are still 5 years away so time for GE to develop upgrades.

TC957 wrote:

Can the CF6 be modified by 2027 to satisfy the ICAO regulations then ? I mean, we are still 5 years away so time for GE to develop upgrades.

I would ask how far out of compliance is the current CF6, then GE could investigate a PIP to gain needed compliance. The biggest issue would be the ability to recoup their investment over a relatively small pool of engines that would be needed, which would also be orphans in a huge number of active CF6 engines. The better solution, barring a replacement aircraft, would be to gain a waiver to the new standards for a defined time period and/or a number of aircraft.

In 1995, GE developed a low emissions combustor for the CF6 at the request of UPS which improved fuel combustion and significantly reduced hydro-carbons (HC), nitrous oxide (NOx) and carbon monoxide (CO) below ICAO standards at the time. So they might be able to do something again to meet the 2028 regulations.

But as catdaddy63 noted, the investment might be too high to earn a return in the current market environment for the engine. When GE did their 1995 update, they were landing scores of orders from UPS and FedEx and the 767 was still being purchased new for passenger applications, as well.

amdiesen wrote:

UPS757Pilot wrote:

Rumor has it that our MD11s will be retired within the next 4-5 years so we shall see.

respecting the quality of your posts and potential for the rumor to be true., this doesn't make sense to me. Brown does not yet have the orders in place, nor could the airframers fulfill the replacements in that time frame. Again, tip-hat as those mechanics generally figure out the prevailing winds quickly.
data points:
- Their does appear to be a number of ERSF orders globally where the carriers have yet to be publicly announced...
- The Boeings 767f extension argument appears to be based the idea that the 763f's carbon footprint is lower than replacement options (assuming the a330 and b787)
- 5X has 8 conversions, 72 new builds and 19 orders(likely to be filled by peak 2025)
- Fedex topped_up/firmed a 767 order a few weeks after the shareholders meeting last year. An outsider looking in would project that the next top_up order would be announced by the same time next year.

Its a challenge to see the b763f replacing the MD11s at UPS., or the 'sweat the assets' ethos become malleable for a symbiotic subfleet

sincere regards <tip hat>

to add, the MD fulfills a role in UPS that will be very hard to replace.
1. they are paid off.
2. they can haul a TON of small package volume almost jumbo levels.
3. they can fit on the wings at Worldport, something that new factory freighters not already in Pullman Brown cant (a30, a350).

now the Japan restrictions to the bulk of PW powered tails are a pain, they are still a very valued fleet and will continue to be for a long time

its not the airframe that will time out the MD, it will be the engine support

747classic wrote:

N289FE, the next 767-300F for FedEx made her first (B1) flight at June 24th 2022 with callsign BOE669, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KPAE

Aircraft data : L/N 1276 C/N 63136 B767-300F N289FE FEDEX (VT669)

For a picture of N289FE, after the B1 flight, see Matt Cawby's Paine Field blog of June 24/25 : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2022/06/paine- ... -2425.html

N289FE, second test flight, KPAE, June 29th 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 1486121985

Change of plans !! : Line Numbers 1265, 1270 and 1272 have been deactivated from storage and will be delivered to Maersk beginning July 21.

See Matt Cawby's June 30th Paine Field blog : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2022/06/paine- ... ne-30.html

N289FE delivery flight towards Indianapolis (KIND) with callsign FX9037 at July 01th 2022, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KIND

N289FE, "Shiloh", KPAE, July 01th


Orignal uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 7246661633

The next for FedEx, N288FE made her (very short !) first (B1) flight at July 18th with callsign BOE 670, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KPAE

N288FE (" Zarene ") , KPAE, July 18th 2022


Original uploaded by Chris Lee at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/propandkeros ... 9098438656



Original uploaded by Chris Lee at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/propandkeros ... 4020663296

Aircraft data : L/N 1278 C/N 63137 B767-300F N288FE FEDEX (VT670) “Zarene”

N495MM (temp reg. N2013M) for Maersk Air Carco, operated by Amerijet International , delivery flight to Miami at July 22th with callsign AJT95, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N49 ... /KPAE/KMIA

N2013M, KPAE, July 22th 2022


Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/15 ... 5109357568

Aircraft data : L/N 1270 C/N 67026 B767-300F (N2013M) CHINA CENTRAL LONGHAO AIRLINES ntu (VT734), N495MM, Maersk Air Cargo / Amerijet International

First (B1) flight of N496MM for Maersk Air Cargo, to be operated by Amerijet International, at 4 August with callsign BOE735, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N49 ... /KPAE/KPAE

N496MM, KPAE, 4 August 2022


Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/15 ... 5066440704

Aircraft data : L/N 1272 C/N 67027 B767-300F CHINA CENTRAL LONGHAO AIRLINES ntu (VT735), N496MM, Maersk Air Cargo / Amerijet International

The next for FedEx, N290FE, made her first (B1) flight at 12 August with callsign BOE671, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N29 ... /KPAE/KMWH

N290FE, KPAE, 12August 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, for more pics see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 1115356162

Aircraft data : L/N 1279 C/N 63135 B767-300F N290FE FEDEX (VT671) “Aunka”

767 firing order update :

L/N 1265 C/N 67025 B767-300F CHINA CENTRAL LONGHAO AIRLINES ntu (VT733), N493MM, Maersk Air Cargo/Amerijet International
L/N 1266 C/N 66867 B767-300F N266FE FEDEX (VT666) “Laila Rae”
L/N 1267 C/N xxxxxx B767-2C 20-46077 USAF KC-46A (VH077) Lot 6, #06/12, tail 06077
L/N 1268 C/N 63131 B767-300F N294FE FEDEX (VT667) “Almin”
L/N 1269 C/N xxxxxx B767-2C 20-46078 USAF KC-46A (VH078) Lot 6, #07/12, tail 06078
L/N 1270 C/N 67026 B767-300F (N2013M) CHINA CENTRAL LONGHAO AIRLINES ntu (VT734), N495MM, Maersk Air Cargo / Amerijet International
L/N 1271 C/N xxxxxx B767-2C 20-46079 USAF KC-46A (VH079) Lot 6, #08/12, tail 06079
L/N 1272 C/N 67027 B767-300F CHINA CENTRAL LONGHAO AIRLINES ntu (VT735), N496MM, Maersk Air Cargo / Amerijet International
L/N 1273 C/N xxxxxx B767-2C 20-46080 USAF KC-46A (VH080) Lot 6, #09/12, tail 06080
L/N 1274 C/N 66254 B767-300F N281FE FEDEX (VT668) “Nikolaj”
L/N 1275 C/N xxxxxx B767-2C 20-46081 USAF KC-46A (VH081) Lot 6, #10/12, tail 06081
L/N 1276 C/N 63136 B767-300F N289FE FEDEX (VT669) “Shiloh”
L/N 1277 C/N xxxxxx B767-2C 20-46082 USAF KC-46A (VH082) Lot 6, #11/12, tail 06082
L/N 1278 C/N 63137 B767-300F N288FE FEDEX (VT670) “Zarene”
L/N 1279 C/N 63135 B767-300F N290FE FEDEX (VT671) “Aunka”
L/N 1280 C/N xxxxxx B767-2C 20-46083 USAF KC-46A (VH083) Lot 6, #12/12, tail 06083
L/N 1281 FEDEX (VT672)

All KC-46A's have sequential military registrations, however the FY of individual aircraft may be changed later.
L/N1280/ VH083 , is the last of BDS USAF LOT #6, placed at January 2021 (12X), delayed order, marked FY20
The next KC-46A will be from BDS USAF LOT #7, placed at January 2021 (15X)

N288FE delivery flight towards Indianapolis (KIND) at 18 August with callsign FX9030, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KIND

N288FE, KPAE, August 18th 2022


Original uploaded by Jennifer Schuld at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/15 ... 5791558656

UPS places repeat order with Boeing for 767 freighters

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/ups-p ... freighters

natc141 wrote:

UPS places repeat order with Boeing for 767 freighters

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/ups-p ... freighters

Does Boeing still have a space on it its order book (without production rate increase, that is), to deliver these before 2027 ICAO deadline for "non-compliant" aircraft production kicks in?

Phosphorus wrote:

natc141 wrote:

UPS places repeat order with Boeing for 767 freighters

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/ups-p ... freighters

Does Boeing still have a space on it its order book (without production rate increase, that is), to deliver these before 2027 ICAO deadline for "non-compliant" aircraft production kicks in?

These were already UPS options that have been exercised, So the relevant production slots were already allocated..
FedEx has also options, that are already allocated at the 767 FAL.

Most options have a final date included.
Before that date, it must de changed into an order, otherwise the allocated production slots can be used by another customer.

looks like another delivery today for FEDEX
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FDX ... /KPAE/KIND

interesting... FedEx and UPS don't fly their 767s far enough to benefit (cost/savings benefit analysis) from the Blended Wingtip modification that some passenger carriers installed.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

interesting... FedEx and UPS don't fly their 767s far enough to benefit (cost/savings benefit analysis) from the Blended Wingtip modification that some passenger carriers installed.

Some of UPS’s have them. They are not something Boeing is certified to install pre delivery from the factory and for whatever reason UPS stopped putting them on newer planes.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

interesting... FedEx and UPS don't fly their 767s far enough to benefit (cost/savings benefit analysis) from the Blended Wingtip modification that some passenger carriers installed.

That's only partly correct

FedEX has indeed no winglet equipped 767-300F aircraft.
UPS has most 767-300F aircraft modified with winglets (N301UP- N361UP), only the latest delivered aircaft are operated without winglets and some second purchased 767-300BCF or leased 767-BDSF/BCF. (not all)
According some sources these latest purchased aircraft will be upgraded with winglets at the first HMV, other sources claim that no decision has been taken yet.

TropicalSky wrote:

looks like another delivery today for FEDEX
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FDX ... /KPAE/KIND

N290FE, delivery flight FX9030, KPAE, 30 August 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 2267837440

The next for FedEx, N264FE, just airborne at 7 September for her first (B1) flight towards Moses Lake with callsign BOE672, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26 ... /KPAE/KMWH

Aircraft data : L/N 1281 C/N 66869 B767-300F N264FE FEDEX (VT672)

747classic wrote:

The next for FedEx, N264FE, just airborne at 7 September for her first (B1) flight towards Moses Lake with callsign BOE672, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26 ... /KPAE/KMWH

Aircraft data : L/N 1281 C/N 66869 B767-300F N264FE FEDEX (VT672)

N264FE, KPAE, 7 September 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 5809397764

N264FE delivery flight at 16 September with callsign FX9032 towards Indianapolis, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26 ... /KPAE/KIND

Next for FedEx will be N265FE.

Aircraft data : L/N 1283 C/N 66868 B767-300F N265FE FEDEX (VT673)
For a first picture of N265FE at the compass rose, see Matt Cawby's September 13th Paine Field blog : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2022/09/paine- ... er-13.html

N265FE, Jacqueline , made her First (B1) flight at 25 September with callsign BOE673, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26 ... /KPAE/KPAE

N265FE, KPAE, September 25th 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 3821937664

Aircraft data : L/N 1283 C/N 66868 B767-300F N265FE FEDEX (VT673) “Jacqueline”

The next for FedEx, N287FE, made her first (B1) flight at 01 October with callsign BOE674, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KMWH

N287FE, KPAE. landing after third test flight, October 7th 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 1005962240

Aircraft data : L/N 1285 C/N 63138 B767-300F N287FE FEDEX (VT674)

Almost missed it :

N265FE, delivery flight towards Indianapolis at 11 October 2022 with callsign FX9030, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26 ... /KPAE/KIND
N287FE, delivery flight towards Indianapolis at 11 October 2022 with callsign FX9031, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KIND

Please keep this thread on topic, possibilities of a further 767 evolution has been discussed ad nauseam in other threads recently.

Maersk Air Cargo, N493MM made her first (B1) flight at October 21th with callsigb BOE733, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N49 ... /KPAE/KMWH

N493MM, KPAE, October 21th 2022


Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/15 ... 3344203781

Aircraft data: L/N 1265 C/N 67025 B767-300F CHINA CENTRAL LONGHAO AIRLINES ntu, N493MM, Maersk Air Cargo (VT733)

Have UPS L/Ns made the firing order list yet?

Would love to see the firing order for 1Q/2Q 2023. And tentative delivery months.

Totally missed her :
N291FE, the next for FedEx, made her first (B1) flight at Oct 18th 2022 with callsign BOE675, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N29 ... /KPAE/KPAE
Delivery flight to Indianapolis at 8 November 2022 with callsign FX9035, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N29 ... /KPAE/KIND

For a video of N291FE, see : https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1uP411 ... om=seopage

Aircraft data : L/N 1287 C/N 63134 B767-300F N291FE FEDEX (VT675)

The next for FedEx, N286FE, made her first (B1) flight at November 13th with callsign BOE676, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KMWH

Aircraft data : L/N 1289 C/N 63139 B767-300F N286FE FEDEX (VT676)

No picture yet !

Firing order update :

L/N 1281 C/N 66869 B767-300F N264FE FEDEX (VT672) “Mathis”
L/N 1282 USAF KC-46A (VH084) Lot 7, #1/15,
L/N 1283 C/N 66868 B767-300F N265FE FEDEX (VT673) “Jacqueline”
L/N 1284 USAF KC-46A (VH085) Lot 7, #2/15
L/N 1285 C/N 63138 B767-300F N287FE FEDEX (VT674) “Aubrey”
L/N 1286 USAF KC-46A (VH086) Lot 7, #3/15
L/N 1287 C/N 63134 B767-300F N291FE FEDEX (VT675)
L/N 1288 USAF KC-46A (VH087) Lot 7, #4/15
L/N 1289 C/N 63139 B767-300F N286FE FEDEX (VT676)
L/N 1290 JASDF KC-46A (VH403)

The third Maersk Air Cargo 767-300F, N493MM, to be operated by Amerijet International, delivery flight at 18 November towards Miami, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N49 ... /KPAE/KMIA

N493MM, KPAE, 18 November 2022


Original uploaded by baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 1429295105

N286FE delivery flight to Indianapolis at November 29th with callsign FX9035, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KIND

N286FE, pictured at a customer acceptance flight at Nov 23th, see Matt Cawby's Paine field blog : http://paineairport.com/images/kpae20349b.png

N285FE, the next for FedEx, made her first (B1) flight at 04 December with callsign BOE677, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KPAE

Aircraft data : L/N 1291 C/N 63140 B767-300F N285FE FEDEX (VT677)

747classic wrote:

N285FE, the next for FedEx, made her first (B1) flight at 04 December with callsign BOE677, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KPAE

Aircraft data : L/N 1291 C/N 63140 B767-300F N285FE FEDEX (VT677)

N285FE, returning to Paine Field after the second test flight, 12 December 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 7761805313

The next for FedEx, N284FE, made her first (B1) flight with callsign BOE678, just after N285FE at the same day (Dec 12th), see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28 ... /KPAE/KPAE

N284FE, KPAE, 12 December 2022


Original uploaded by Baqir at twitter, see : https://mobile.twitter.com/Baqir_KPAE/s ... 1802508288

Aircraft data : L/N 1292 (?) C/N 63141 B767-300F N284FE FEDEX (VT678)

? = L/N not verified, only one source

Is ANA going to retire the whole 767 fleet in a couple years? The reason I'm asking is that they just got rid of one (JA620A) that is barely 12 years old. Most of the retirements were 15-20 years old until now.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4

SEAorPWM wrote:

Is ANA going to retire the whole 767 fleet in a couple years?

ANA have stated they planned to retire three 767-300ERs this year.

https://airinsight.com/ana-optimistic-a ... this-year/

TC957 wrote:

Can the CF6 be modified by 2027 to satisfy the ICAO regulations then ? I mean, we are still 5 years away so time for GE to develop upgrades.

what exactly are the shortcomings of the CF6 that they cannot meet ICAO?

strfyr51 wrote:

TC957 wrote:

Can the CF6 be modified by 2027 to satisfy the ICAO regulations then ? I mean, we are still 5 years away so time for GE to develop upgrades.

what exactly are the shortcomings of the CF6 that they cannot meet ICAO?

There need not to be any specific shortcomings of the CF6 itself. It's just past 2027, a 767, powered with CF6 (among all 767 engine options, as well), will not comply with ICAO standard, announced at this point:
https://www.icao.int/Newsroom/Pages/ICA ... craft.aspx
Otherwise, CF6 is a very good engine. Except you cannot commercially operate a 767 with CF6, if the airframe build date is past 2027...

Phosphorus wrote:

strfyr51 wrote:

TC957 wrote:

Can the CF6 be modified by 2027 to satisfy the ICAO regulations then ? I mean, we are still 5 years away so time for GE to develop upgrades.

what exactly are the shortcomings of the CF6 that they cannot meet ICAO?

There need not to be any specific shortcomings of the CF6 itself. It's just past 2027, a 767, powered with CF6 (among all 767 engine options, as well), will not comply with ICAO standard, announced at this point:
https://www.icao.int/Newsroom/Pages/ICA ... craft.aspx
Otherwise, CF6 is a very good engine. Except you cannot commercially operate a 767 with CF6, if the airframe build date is past 2027...

None of that matters, these aren’t post-2027 airframes.

strfyr51 wrote:

what exactly are the shortcomings of the CF6 that they cannot meet ICAO?

The CO2 emissions are in excess of what the ICAO rules allow on new-build airframes post-2027. As the CF6 is the only engine offered on the 767-300F (at least it is the only engine ever ordered), Boeing cannot offer commercial 767-300F airframes with the CF6 after 2027.

That being said, the PW4000 used on the KC-46A does not meet ICAO standards, either, so it would not be an option (the KC-46A is exempt as it is a military frame).

Stitch wrote:

strfyr51 wrote:

what exactly are the shortcomings of the CF6 that they cannot meet ICAO?

The CO2 emissions are in excess of what the ICAO rules allow on new-build airframes post-2027. As the CF6 is the only engine offered on the 767-300F (at least it is the only engine ever ordered), Boeing cannot offer commercial 767-300F airframes with the CF6 after 2027.

That being said, the PW4000 used on the KC-46A does not meet ICAO standards, either, so it would not be an option (the KC-46A is exempt as it is a military frame).

Thank you for going through the trouble of spelling that out.

So, 767-300F is legal for commercial operations, if built before 31.12.2027, and illegal, if built after 01.01.2028, correct?

Do we know the legal definition of "built" in these circumstances?
Handed over to customer? First flight performed? First taxi? Full body join? Number appearing on FAA registry? Builder's plate manufactured? Some components manufactured?

747classic wrote:

N495MM (temp reg. N2013M) for Maersk Air Carco, operated by Amerijet International , delivery flight to Miami at July 22th with callsign AJT95, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N49 ... /KPAE/KMIA

N2013M, KPAE, July 22th 2022


Original uploaded by Matt Cawby at twitter, see : https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/15 ... 5109357568

Aircraft data : L/N 1270 C/N 67026 B767-300F (N2013M) CHINA CENTRAL LONGHAO AIRLINES ntu (VT734), N495MM, Maersk Air Cargo / Amerijet International

That is a sweet looking airplane! I say leave it all white

Phosphorus wrote:

Stitch wrote:

strfyr51 wrote:

what exactly are the shortcomings of the CF6 that they cannot meet ICAO?

The CO2 emissions are in excess of what the ICAO rules allow on new-build airframes post-2027. As the CF6 is the only engine offered on the 767-300F (at least it is the only engine ever ordered), Boeing cannot offer commercial 767-300F airframes with the CF6 after 2027.

That being said, the PW4000 used on the KC-46A does not meet ICAO standards, either, so it would not be an option (the KC-46A is exempt as it is a military frame).

Thank you for going through the trouble of spelling that out.

So, 767-300F is legal for commercial operations, if built before 31.12.2027, and illegal, if built after 01.01.2028, correct?

Do we know the legal definition of "built" in these circumstances?
Handed over to customer? First flight performed? First taxi? Full body join? Number appearing on FAA registry? Builder's plate manufactured? Some components manufactured?

Between the recession, increasing cost of credit, reduced demand for cargo,... the availability for production slots becomes unconstrained.
Think with regards to the impact of sovereign debt costs and the persistence of inflation for the foreseeable future as these themes have yet to become part of the broad consciousness and discussions.

*of course this is a projection, but it’s based on analytics of a mosaic of data

amdiesen wrote:

Phosphorus wrote:

Stitch wrote:

The CO2 emissions are in excess of what the ICAO rules allow on new-build airframes post-2027. As the CF6 is the only engine offered on the 767-300F (at least it is the only engine ever ordered), Boeing cannot offer commercial 767-300F airframes with the CF6 after 2027.

That being said, the PW4000 used on the KC-46A does not meet ICAO standards, either, so it would not be an option (the KC-46A is exempt as it is a military frame).

Thank you for going through the trouble of spelling that out.

So, 767-300F is legal for commercial operations, if built before 31.12.2027, and illegal, if built after 01.01.2028, correct?

Do we know the legal definition of "built" in these circumstances?
Handed over to customer? First flight performed? First taxi? Full body join? Number appearing on FAA registry? Builder's plate manufactured? Some components manufactured?

Between the recession, increasing cost of credit, reduced demand for cargo,... the availability for production slots becomes unconstrained.
Think with regards to the impact of sovereign debt costs and the persistence of inflation for the foreseeable future as these themes have yet to become part of the broad consciousness and discussions.

*of course this is a projection, but it’s based on analytics of a mosaic of data

Lol what? Inflation isn’t yet part of broad discussions? It certainly is.

Is Boeing still actively seeking 767F orders or is the current backlog taking them to the end-2027 deadline already ?