Welcome to the Phoenix Aviation Thread 2022. Please continue your discussion and to post your news below.

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Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

HNY everybody!

Did I miss a memo, or did HA suspend PHX-OGG? When I was booking our trip to Hawaii for 3Q of this year, I didn't see it.

You missed the memo. It was originally planned for May 21-August 15 (2021). Nothing has been said about resuming it for this summer.

cathay747 wrote:

HNY everybody!

Did I miss a memo, or did HA suspend PHX-OGG? When I was booking our trip to Hawaii for 3Q of this year, I didn't see it.

Good morning, I figure since the route was announced in March 2021 for May 2021 start we wouldn’t see the schedule (if resuming) until January or February this year.

[twoid][/twoid]

BA744PHX wrote:

cathay747 wrote:

HNY everybody!

Did I miss a memo, or did HA suspend PHX-OGG? When I was booking our trip to Hawaii for 3Q of this year, I didn't see it.

Good morning, I figure since the route was announced in March 2021 for May 2021 start we wouldn’t see the schedule (if resuming) until January or February this year.

It’s seasonal

Wneast wrote:

[twoid][/twoid]

BA744PHX wrote:

cathay747 wrote:

HNY everybody!

Did I miss a memo, or did HA suspend PHX-OGG? When I was booking our trip to Hawaii for 3Q of this year, I didn't see it.

Good morning, I figure since the route was announced in March 2021 for May 2021 start we wouldn’t see the schedule (if resuming) until January or February this year.

It’s seasonal

Seasonal is already known, the current issue it’s not bookable for any dates in 2022, this was schedule for 4 weekly from May - September in 2021

Thanks guys, I'd forgotten it was only seasonal. Curious though that it's not in the GDS for this year...yet, anyway. You'd think they'd have it loaded already, but only WN and AA show as of now (using a date of 21MAY and the schedule shows AA from 05APR to 29OCT and WN 25APR-04JUN. So maybe it's in doubt if they'll do it again.

(current Wyoming resident who's likely moving to Phoenix area later this year)
What is there in particular to be excited about for the Phoenix area as an av-geek? Of course, I know about the AA hub and the WN "not-hub hub" but I wondered what else is interesting or "must know" for someone coming to the area.

PHX traffic seems to peak in March, October, and December, which is interesting to me, making PHX a mostly "counter-seasonal" airport.

With PHX cost per enplanement at "only" $5.80 and AZA at around $2.60
I'm wondering why Allegiant has nearly all of its operations at AZA instead. Is AZA easier and convenient to get to for a lot of people, is PHX too constrained and busy at times?
Sources: https://www.gatewayairport.com/document ... -paper.pdf
https://www.skyharbor.com/docs/default- ... ea5e9088_0

Also, I would have thought AZA served more than 1.7 million passengers in a normal year considering all the destinations Allegiant has (even at low frequency)...

I also think its interesting that the PHX master plan shows a bunch of UA aircraft in its rendering of the long term expanded West Terminal concept.
https://www.skyharbor.com/docs/default- ... 8c516889_4

It just seems like PHX isn't talked about enough on this forum considering how busy it is normally (45 million pax/year)... I know Asia flights are unlikely (especially now) even though they used to be a big staple of discussion and even a joke among some on here) but I'm interested to know anything more interesting about aviation in the Phoenix area and Arizona in general.

SumChristianus wrote:

I'm interested to know anything more interesting about aviation in the Phoenix area and Arizona in general.

If you live here, PHX can be a real easy airport to get in and out. Hopefully they can fix the east entrance because traffic gets really backed up in the mornings and people are a bunch of idiots and can’t merge. Aside from that, it’s a simple airport to navigate in and out of as a local. It’s dreadful if you need to rent a car.

You won’t understand our heat until you experience it. It’s rather hot here.

PHX is pretty quick to get to from almost anywhere in the valley. AZA is basically only more convenient if you’re in Gilbert or the fringes of Mesa. I don’t think PHX has any big congestion issues, it seems to have plenty of capacity, and it’s just far better connected, so there’s few reasons to fly out of AZA.

chrisair wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

I'm interested to know anything more interesting about aviation in the Phoenix area and Arizona in general.

If you live here, PHX can be a real easy airport to get in and out. Hopefully they can fix the east entrance because traffic gets really backed up in the mornings and people are a bunch of idiots and can’t merge. Aside from that, it’s a simple airport to navigate in and out of as a local. It’s dreadful if you need to rent a car.

You won’t understand our heat until you experience it. It’s rather hot here.

To clarify: it's hot here in the summer. LOL Right now and for a several days past, with more to come, we're having that weather where we say "THIS is why we live here!" especially when compared to the "Arctic Blast" they're getting in the mid-Atlantic and N.E. right now and what you're getting up in WY; every winter I'm reminded of a huge reason why we left the DC-area & moved here in Oct. 2014!!!

As to PHX being easy to get in & out of...well, I'd also clarify that by saying that yeah, it is, meaning the major arteries to reach it, but once you're on-property, I find the spaghetti-like maze of roadways to be a totally-confusing hot mess! When you're not a frequent traveler, trying to navigate is a nightmare in terms of trying to NOT cause an accident by trying to look at & read the signage so you know which bloody lane to get into. And I feel that in many places, there's insufficient distance for merging.

IAD...THERE is an airport that's EASY to get in and out of AND navigate thru!!! LOL

Once you're here, it's worth making an occasional trip to Goodyear and see what's there. And don't forget to get down to Marana; you can arrange a private tour that'll drive you around the flight line (at least you used to be able to; it may be suspended due to COVID).

birdup wrote:

PHX is pretty quick to get to from almost anywhere in the valley. AZA is basically only more convenient if you’re in Gilbert or the fringes of Mesa. I don’t think PHX has any big congestion issues, it seems to have plenty of capacity, and it’s just far better connected, so there’s few reasons to fly out of AZA.

PHX has runway capacity but not necessarily gate capacity (although AA's utilization of their gates is something to be desired). Also PHX is hamstrung by the flow control restrictions that Tempe has imposed on the airport.

Sky Harbor offers great non stop or one stop service to just about anywhere in the US and many places in Europe and Asia. The Airport is fairly easy to navigate once you are in the terminals. (@ cathay747 I drove a bus on property for several years and I still get confused by Sky Harbors Layout) One of the pinch points for International is the lack of gates for Customs and Immigration control. I am a bit surprised that they have never talked about GYR becoming a cargo hub. A huge amount of warehouse space is being built in the West Valley and GYR would give convenient access to those facilities. It would also bypass the central city traffic. As far as our Summers, I tell people that they are just like your Wyoming Winter you just stay in the house in front of the AC. I live near the Cardinals Stadium and PHX is 25 Miles. AZA is 56 so for me AZA is a no go. Welcome to the Valley!

Vctony wrote:

Also PHX is hamstrung by the flow control restrictions that Tempe has imposed on the airport.

There's a little more to it than that, but yeah. In any case, the City of Phoenix still agreed to a list of terms with Tempe, and they really shouldn't have...as far as I know, noting forced them into such an agreement. Ultimately it hurts both cities.

To add some detail to Vctony's point.. There are restrictions for noise abatement that allows for no more than 50% of ops in an east flow configuration (departing towards Tempe) cumulatively over a calendar month, but that is more of an annoyance than anything. However, the departure limitations are the biggest issue. I have no idea what the procedures do these days because I moved away years ago, but the old SIDs were all based off of PXR (Phoenix VORTAC). That meant that regardless of which departure runway was used, it was only possible to depart one jet at a time because they converged over the same point. Simultaneous departures require diverging courses. As far as I know, the same issue still holds true regardless of flow. There have actually been simultaneous departures for years, but only when one of the aircraft is a prop or turbo — those aircraft immediately turn north or south and don't fly a SID. Simultaneous departures are absolutely permitted with the existing runway configuration, but aren't possible due to the SIDs because of the agreement with Tempe. You'd think it would be made possible in west flow (departing towards Phoenix), but it hasn't been done for whatever reason.

Although to be honest, given that PHX is VFR 99% of the time, and most aircraft are like types, having one departure runway generally works fine. The only required separation for visual rules on divergent SIDs is 6,000ft down the runway and airborne, so the line up and wait time is pretty minimal. It's just inefficient in a departure push to only use one piece of pavement while two others sit mostly idle.

All of that is why the idea of a fourth runway is superfluous. There isn't enough spacing between runways for a triple parallel approach, and LOAs prevent simultaneous turbojet departures. A fourth runway does nothing except cost a billion dollars and look pretty. That's aside from the fact that Honeywell won't move, and they're on a 100 year lease. PHX will forever be a three runway field, and I don't see the Tempe LOA changing.

^ very interesting. I love how you explain things; thank you!!

One point I'll personally agree on is the wait times for takeoff not being very long...having been in a line-up as I'm sure most of us reading this have been, it does go pretty quick. Now I know why!

Has the western extension of the SkyTrain opened to the Rental car center yet? When I drove through a few weeks ago, I believe I saw posters up on the columns in the pickup area announcing the change from buses. Getting rid of the busses will be such a relieve to the roadways!

kearnet wrote:

Has the western extension of the SkyTrain opened to the Rental car center yet? When I drove through a few weeks ago, I believe I saw posters up on the columns in the pickup area announcing the change from buses.

City is saying "early summer".

kearnet wrote:

Getting rid of the buses will be such a relieve to the roadways!

It has yet to devise an alternate plan for transportation to the RAC when the SkyTrAAn breaks or goes out for maintenance.

MO11 wrote:

kearnet wrote:

Has the western extension of the SkyTrain opened to the Rental car center yet? When I drove through a few weeks ago, I believe I saw posters up on the columns in the pickup area announcing the change from buses.

City is saying "early summer".

kearnet wrote:

Getting rid of the buses will be such a relieve to the roadways!

It has yet to devise an alternate plan for transportation to the RAC when the SkyTrAAn breaks or goes out for maintenance.

The busses still are the back up, just like they are now for when the maintenance happens between 44th and East Economy. The goal is that when doing maintenance they can get everyone to the ground trans station at Copperhead via SkyTrain and then bus from there so that there is limited impact to the terminal traffic.

When did BA switch from the 772 to the 773, is this temporary or something more permanent?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KGsRshWU70

cm642 wrote:

When did BA switch from the 772 to the 773, is this temporary or something more permanent?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KGsRshWU70

Started a week ago and is on the schedule through the end of February currently.

Still planned as a 35K for the summer.

Can I say that as a tourist there a few years ago for Spring Training, driving through the terminal area was a nightmare, it's so confusing. I have had worse experiences driving through a terminal area, but that was ICN and nearly everything is written in Korean with small English writing which is to small to see until it's too late.

Otherwise the whole Phoenix area is great for aviation, both civil and military.

LTEN11 wrote:

Can I say that as a tourist there a few years ago for Spring Training, driving through the terminal area was a nightmare, it's so confusing. I have had worse experiences driving through a terminal area, but that was ICN and nearly everything is written in Korean with small English writing which is to small to see until it's too late.

Otherwise the whole Phoenix area is great for aviation, both civil and military.

Probably a little less confusing now that T-2 is gone.

mga707 wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

Can I say that as a tourist there a few years ago for Spring Training, driving through the terminal area was a nightmare, it's so confusing. I have had worse experiences driving through a terminal area, but that was ICN and nearly everything is written in Korean with small English writing which is to small to see until it's too late.

Otherwise the whole Phoenix area is great for aviation, both civil and military.

Probably a little less confusing now that T-2 is gone.

Sadly, no, it's not. Nothing can be done about it, however, other than improving the signage and painting on the pavement itself like what's on the freeways to help you know what lane you need to be in for what. THAT is the problem; there are so many lanes, ramps, exits, etc., you don't know where to be. Again, this is for infrequent users of PHX, frequent flyers/users I'm sure have no problem, but that's from experience!

cathay747 wrote:

mga707 wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

Can I say that as a tourist there a few years ago for Spring Training, driving through the terminal area was a nightmare, it's so confusing. I have had worse experiences driving through a terminal area, but that was ICN and nearly everything is written in Korean with small English writing which is to small to see until it's too late.

Otherwise the whole Phoenix area is great for aviation, both civil and military.

Probably a little less confusing now that T-2 is gone.

Sadly, no, it's not. Nothing can be done about it, however, other than improving the signage and painting on the pavement itself like what's on the freeways to help you know what lane you need to be in for what. THAT is the problem; there are so many lanes, ramps, exits, etc., you don't know where to be. Again, this is for infrequent users of PHX, frequent flyers/users I'm sure have no problem, but that's from experience!

In my experience people coming from the East have a less challenging time than people entering the airport from the West. Signage is desperately needed prior to the T3 curve as it's always a mess of people suddenly merging right to be able pick-up/drop-off at T3N. Even a simple sign that says T3 right lane, T4 left lane would help. During the holidays they had a temporary LED board up that said T4 Keep Left just past the cell phone lot and it seemed like there was a lot less traffic merging late. One of the smartest things they've currently done is close the T3 curb turnaround from East to West as that was never a fun experience for anyone and it was never clear what it was for so people would incorrectly take it or miss it if they needed to take it.

Down the road when they begin building the West Terminal they are supposed to realign Sky Harbor Blvd to be straight all the way from T4 to Copperhead/the new West Ground Trans SkyTrain station before it re-splits into Buckeye and the I-10 ramps. That should hopefully help. It's just about ten years away.

^ I'm glad to know somebody understands what I'm talking about; we're in Avondale some we come from the west.

And yeah, it figures...badly needed help/improvement 10 years away.

I have been parking off Airport for less $ and just take the shuttle from the parking company and be done with it. I see PHX is raising the parking rates again.

Note that eventually a permanent West Economy lot is supposed to be built near the Rental Car Center. The former T2 parking garage is intended to be a temporary lot until a permanent West Economy is built. The T2 parking garage should be torn down to make way for the West Terminal.

alasizon wrote:

cathay747 wrote:

mga707 wrote:

Probably a little less confusing now that T-2 is gone.

Down the road when they begin building the West Terminal they are supposed to realign Sky Harbor Blvd to be straight all the way from T4 to Copperhead/the new West Ground Trans SkyTrain station before it re-splits into Buckeye and the I-10 ramps. That should hopefully help. It's just about ten years away.

Is that even possible ? Unless they bury the road, it would cut through both the Commuter ramp and light rail.

1337Delta764 wrote:

Note that eventually a permanent West Economy lot is supposed to be built near the Rental Car Center. The former T2 parking garage is intended to be a temporary lot until a permanent West Economy is built. The T2 parking garage should be torn down to make way for the West Terminal.

Well that's massively disappointing. I love the T2 garage. Easy in and out.

cathay747 wrote:

^ I'm glad to know somebody understands what I'm talking about; we're in Avondale some we come from the west.

For what it's worth, I've lived here almost ten years and have been commuting from PHX since 2011. I still get confused with the terminal ramps at times.

When I lived in the Biltmore area, I'd always enter from the west. Even driving to the east economy garage was simple five minute experience. Now that I'm in Arcadia, entering from the east and going to the T2 garage is a massive pain in the morning, especially this time of year. If they'd stop shutting the sky train down at night, I'd just park in the east garage and be done with it, but landing at midnight and having to take a bus is so 2013.

MrPeanut wrote:

alasizon wrote:

cathay747 wrote:

Down the road when they begin building the West Terminal they are supposed to realign Sky Harbor Blvd to be straight all the way from T4 to Copperhead/the new West Ground Trans SkyTrain station before it re-splits into Buckeye and the I-10 ramps. That should hopefully help. It's just about ten years away.

Is that even possible ? Unless they bury the road, it would cut through both the Commuter ramp and light rail.

Pages 13 and 17 of the PDF linked below shows the plan. It isn't perfectly straight but it'll parallel the SkyTrain track. The commuter ramp as it stands today isn't permanent, F13 to F15 will eventually be a bus gate. No real plan on where the commuters are going as the hypothetical long term plan has WN moving to the new west terminal, AA moving their ops onto N1, N2, N3, S1, S2 and S3 (I'm skeptical that N3.5 will ever happen) with N4 and S4 being common use so perhaps somewhere on S4.

https://www.skyharbor.com/docs/default- ... 8c516889_4

Once again SkyHarbor is #4 for guns seized for 2021

The four airports where the most firearms were discovered in 2021 were the same as 2020's top four.

Screeners found 507 guns at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, followed by 317 at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport, 245 at George Bush Intercontinental Airport in Houston, 196 at Phoenix's Sky Harbor International Airport, and 163 at Nashville International Airport.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/natio ... hnzVYXIJz0

910A wrote:

Once again SkyHarbor is #4 for guns seized for 2021

The four airports where the most firearms were discovered in 2021 were the same as 2020's top four.

Screeners found 507 guns at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, followed by 317 at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport, 245 at George Bush Intercontinental Airport in Houston, 196 at Phoenix's Sky Harbor International Airport, and 163 at Nashville International Airport.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/natio ... hnzVYXIJz0

Hardly surprising that the two biggest TX airports were #2 and 3 and that PHX is 4. I mean, Texas...especially after the gun law they passed...don't get me started, I know this isn't a forum for political views. And PHX...where we have TV ads for a gun store mini-chain.

I'm excited to be moving to the Phoenix area in few months and hope to contribute a lot more to this thread in the near future.
For a start, some T100 LF pulls on this spreadsheet (August 2021): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... RszaoKerg/ with more to come.

Also, if anyone wants a US domestic passenger segment profile on any particular route I have a rudimentary runaround way (i.e. without MS Access) of doing it for very small pulls from DB1B data.

(Example might be who is flying TUS-PHX
Almost no local passengers with these being the largest beyond-PHX markets from TUS in Q3 2021
PDX 11.1
SMF 9.0
LAS 8.8
AUS 8.7
SAN 8.7
MSP 8.5
SAT 8.4
SLC 7.1
PHL 6.7
ONT 6.4
SEA 6.3
DCA 5.6
DFW 5.4
HNL 5.3
DEN 5.3
RNO 5.1
SJC 5.1)

A few other tidbits I found interesting:
Largest beyond market on DFW-PHX is HNL
Largest beyond market on COS-PHX is SMF
Largest beyond markets on HNL-PHX are DEN, SLC, HOU, and SAT (all around 11-14 PDEW)

SumChristianus wrote:

I'm excited to be moving to the Phoenix area in few months and hope to contribute a lot more to this thread in the near future.
For a start, some T100 LF pulls on this spreadsheet (August 2021): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... RszaoKerg/ with more to come.

Also, if anyone wants a US domestic passenger segment profile on any particular route I have a rudimentary runaround way (i.e. without MS Access) of doing it for very small pulls from DB1B data.

(Example might be who is flying TUS-PHX
Almost no local passengers with these being the largest beyond-PHX markets from TUS in Q3 2021
PDX 11.1
SMF 9.0
LAS 8.8
AUS 8.7
SAN 8.7
MSP 8.5
SAT 8.4
SLC 7.1
PHL 6.7
ONT 6.4
SEA 6.3
DCA 5.6
DFW 5.4
HNL 5.3
DEN 5.3
RNO 5.1
SJC 5.1)

A few other tidbits I found interesting:
Largest beyond market on DFW-PHX is HNL
Largest beyond market on COS-PHX is SMF
Largest beyond markets on HNL-PHX are DEN, SLC, HOU, and SAT (all around 11-14 PDEW)

Very Interesting. Thanks or posting the info.

SumChristianus wrote:

I'm excited to be moving to the Phoenix area in few months and hope to contribute a lot more to this thread in the near future.
For a start, some T100 LF pulls on this spreadsheet (August 2021): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... RszaoKerg/ with more to come.

Also, if anyone wants a US domestic passenger segment profile on any particular route I have a rudimentary runaround way (i.e. without MS Access) of doing it for very small pulls from DB1B data.

(Example might be who is flying TUS-PHX
Almost no local passengers with these being the largest beyond-PHX markets from TUS in Q3 2021
PDX 11.1
SMF 9.0
LAS 8.8
AUS 8.7
SAN 8.7
MSP 8.5
SAT 8.4
SLC 7.1
PHL 6.7
ONT 6.4
SEA 6.3
DCA 5.6
DFW 5.4
HNL 5.3
DEN 5.3
RNO 5.1
SJC 5.1)

A few other tidbits I found interesting:
Largest beyond market on DFW-PHX is HNL
Largest beyond market on COS-PHX is SMF
Largest beyond markets on HNL-PHX are DEN, SLC, HOU, and SAT (all around 11-14 PDEW)

Wow very good information! Well done!

Regarding COS-PHX this was only served for 4 months December 2019 - March 2020 and hasn't resumed. Is this a typo by any chance?

BA744PHX wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

I'm excited to be moving to the Phoenix area in few months and hope to contribute a lot more to this thread in the near future.
For a start, some T100 LF pulls on this spreadsheet (August 2021): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... RszaoKerg/ with more to come.

Also, if anyone wants a US domestic passenger segment profile on any particular route I have a rudimentary runaround way (i.e. without MS Access) of doing it for very small pulls from DB1B data.

(Example might be who is flying TUS-PHX
Almost no local passengers with these being the largest beyond-PHX markets from TUS in Q3 2021
PDX 11.1
SMF 9.0
LAS 8.8
AUS 8.7
SAN 8.7
MSP 8.5
SAT 8.4
SLC 7.1
PHL 6.7
ONT 6.4
SEA 6.3
DCA 5.6
DFW 5.4
HNL 5.3
DEN 5.3
RNO 5.1
SJC 5.1)

A few other tidbits I found interesting:
Largest beyond market on DFW-PHX is HNL
Largest beyond market on COS-PHX is SMF
Largest beyond markets on HNL-PHX are DEN, SLC, HOU, and SAT (all around 11-14 PDEW)

Wow very good information! Well done!

Regarding COS-PHX this was only served for 4 months December 2019 - March 2020 and hasn't resumed. Is this a typo by any chance?

WN is flying COS-PHX currently.

alasizon wrote:

BA744PHX wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

I'm excited to be moving to the Phoenix area in few months and hope to contribute a lot more to this thread in the near future.
For a start, some T100 LF pulls on this spreadsheet (August 2021): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... RszaoKerg/ with more to come.

Also, if anyone wants a US domestic passenger segment profile on any particular route I have a rudimentary runaround way (i.e. without MS Access) of doing it for very small pulls from DB1B data.

(Example might be who is flying TUS-PHX
Almost no local passengers with these being the largest beyond-PHX markets from TUS in Q3 2021
PDX 11.1
SMF 9.0
LAS 8.8
AUS 8.7
SAN 8.7
MSP 8.5
SAT 8.4
SLC 7.1
PHL 6.7
ONT 6.4
SEA 6.3
DCA 5.6
DFW 5.4
HNL 5.3
DEN 5.3
RNO 5.1
SJC 5.1)

A few other tidbits I found interesting:
Largest beyond market on DFW-PHX is HNL
Largest beyond market on COS-PHX is SMF
Largest beyond markets on HNL-PHX are DEN, SLC, HOU, and SAT (all around 11-14 PDEW)

Wow very good information! Well done!

Regarding COS-PHX this was only served for 4 months December 2019 - March 2020 and hasn't resumed. Is this a typo by any chance?

WN is flying COS-PHX currently.

Thanks for the update, I assumed the data was AA only, my mistake

BA744PHX wrote:

alasizon wrote:

BA744PHX wrote:

Wow very good information! Well done!

Regarding COS-PHX this was only served for 4 months December 2019 - March 2020 and hasn't resumed. Is this a typo by any chance?

WN is flying COS-PHX currently.

Thanks for the update, I assumed the data was AA only, my mistake

Sorry for not being clear, I didn't split it out. Until I find a MS Access alternative (or buy a new license for my new computer) my solution is kind of clunky to access/pprobe DB1B O&D data.

PHX-COS is kind of an odd-route to be unserved by AA. It seems like that should be a key-hub feeder, but is so inconsistently served by them. I wonder if, similar to PHX-OKC which went unserved by AA for awhile, it its just an awkward distance route in which flights don't fit well into hub banks at PHX?

SumChristianus wrote:

BA744PHX wrote:

alasizon wrote:

WN is flying COS-PHX currently.

Thanks for the update, I assumed the data was AA only, my mistake

Sorry for not being clear, I didn't split it out. Until I find a MS Access alternative (or buy a new license for my new computer) my solution is kind of clunky to access/pprobe DB1B O&D data.

PHX-COS is kind of an odd-route to be unserved by AA. It seems like that should be a key-hub feeder, but is so inconsistently served by them. I wonder if, similar to PHX-OKC which went unserved by AA for awhile, it its just an awkward distance route in which flights don't fit well into hub banks at PHX?

The distance is awkward but the yield of COS-West is just terrible which is why it got cut.

Most recent attempt was 2x pro-rate CR2 at launch and then added a contract CR7 and then eventually went 2x CR2 and 1x 319 followed by 1x CR7 and 1x 319 - it just never generated the yield to sustain the market. I think part of it is the demand is just to markets with lots of competition and it just ends up occupying seats that would make more money when filled with connections from other outstations.

alasizon wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

BA744PHX wrote:

Thanks for the update, I assumed the data was AA only, my mistake

Sorry for not being clear, I didn't split it out. Until I find a MS Access alternative (or buy a new license for my new computer) my solution is kind of clunky to access/pprobe DB1B O&D data.

PHX-COS is kind of an odd-route to be unserved by AA. It seems like that should be a key-hub feeder, but is so inconsistently served by them. I wonder if, similar to PHX-OKC which went unserved by AA for awhile, it its just an awkward distance route in which flights don't fit well into hub banks at PHX?

The distance is awkward but the yield of COS-West is just terrible which is why it got cut.

Most recent attempt was 2x pro-rate CR2 at launch and then added a contract CR7 and then eventually went 2x CR2 and 1x 319 followed by 1x CR7 and 1x 319 - it just never generated the yield to sustain the market. I think part of it is the demand is just to markets with lots of competition and it just ends up occupying seats that would make more money when filled with connections from other outstations.

This is the first I've heard the yields were terrible on COS-PHX for AA. Just curious where that data is coming from? There was a quote from one of the AA execs a couple months ago that AA considered COS and DEN the same market and they didn't want to put seats into COS and risk losing some passengers out of DEN. I thought that was a pretty ridiculous statement because I can assure you COS and DEN are not the same market.

OKCDCA wrote:

alasizon wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

Sorry for not being clear, I didn't split it out. Until I find a MS Access alternative (or buy a new license for my new computer) my solution is kind of clunky to access/pprobe DB1B O&D data.

PHX-COS is kind of an odd-route to be unserved by AA. It seems like that should be a key-hub feeder, but is so inconsistently served by them. I wonder if, similar to PHX-OKC which went unserved by AA for awhile, it its just an awkward distance route in which flights don't fit well into hub banks at PHX?

The distance is awkward but the yield of COS-West is just terrible which is why it got cut.

Most recent attempt was 2x pro-rate CR2 at launch and then added a contract CR7 and then eventually went 2x CR2 and 1x 319 followed by 1x CR7 and 1x 319 - it just never generated the yield to sustain the market. I think part of it is the demand is just to markets with lots of competition and it just ends up occupying seats that would make more money when filled with connections from other outstations.

This is the first I've heard the yields were terrible on COS-PHX for AA. Just curious where that data is coming from? There was a quote from one of the AA execs a couple months ago that AA considered COS and DEN the same market and they didn't want to put seats into COS and risk losing some passengers out of DEN. I thought that was a pretty ridiculous statement because I can assure you COS and DEN are not the same market.

Anyone who thinks COS and DEN are the same market has clearly never been to COS.

The data came to me originally from someone that was on the revenue management team and the last I saw, the T100/DB1B data also backed it up. It's just a matter of all the big markets out of COS already have direct service and it just doesn't yield well (don't ask me why - on paper it should).

Does anybody know the history of Lufthansa’s flight school in the Phoenix area? Why Arizona? How long has it been around? And are the students all German?

sea13 wrote:

Does anybody know the history of Lufthansa’s flight school in the Phoenix area? Why Arizona? How long has it been around? And are the students all German?

I don't know all of the details, but they've trained their pilots in Phoenix going back to the 60s. Some WWII vets opened a flight school (I think at Falcon) that trained pilots for Pacific Southwest. Lufthansa and JAL started sending their pilots there in the late 60s. For a while in the 70s and 80s, I'm pretty sure ASU was also involved in the program before ASU opened the East Campus (now Polytechnic) in 1996 at the old Williams AFB (now Phoenix-Mesa Gateway). Lufthansa bought the old PSA program in the early 90s and moved it to Goodyear, where they opened the large academy they have today, along with the dormitory complex and cafeteria.

If you've ever spent time in Germany and Phoenix (I lived in both for several years), it's quickly apparent why they chose Arizona — the weather! Arizona offers the most amount of uninterrupted flight training opportunities, and the valley has long had the aviation infrastructure to support extensive flight training. That's why pilots from all over the world end up in Phoenix.

The pilots are mostly German, but it's based on who the airline hires. I had a couple of friends go through the program and have now gone through the Lufthansa pipeline for several years. They're hired off the street with no prior experience. Only around 10% of applicants are granted interviews, and only around 10% of them are hired. One friend of mine is German, although he mostly grew up in the US/UK. They spend roughly a year in Goodyear before returning to Germany to complete the remainder of their training. They're then assigned to an LH subsidiary — my friends started at CityLine on the E-190/195, then went to Germanwings on the Airbus, then were promoted to mainline LH. These days, they'd probably go through Eurowings. They're probably also spending more time at subsidiaries with lower wages, because LH has been shifting more and more capacity onto CL/EW for both short and long haul. The academy also trains other LH Group subsidiaries (Austrian, Swiss, and presumably Brussels?), so they'd end up in those segments of the company at the completion of their training. They're also presumably nationals of those respective countries, but since those subsidiaries are comparably much smaller, they wouldn't send nearly as many pilots for training.

sea13 wrote:

Does anybody know the history of Lufthansa’s flight school in the Phoenix area? Why Arizona? How long has it been around? And are the students all German?

This may provide more insight:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/lufthansa-pilot-training-phoenix/

Up until a year ago, it owned a private airfield in the desert with a full ILS.

MO11 wrote:

sea13 wrote:

Does anybody know the history of Lufthansa’s flight school in the Phoenix area? Why Arizona? How long has it been around? And are the students all German?

This may provide more insight:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/lufthansa-pilot-training-phoenix/

Up until a year ago, it owned a private airfield in the desert with a full ILS.

Fascinating article, thanks for the link to it. I had no idea that ANA trains there! I figured LH Group airlines i.e. OS, LX did, but not ANA.

Looks like the Condor route between PHX and FRA is starting up again in May. Interesting note from article is that the pre-COVID daily AA route to LHR doesn't have a confirm start date but looking at AA website, it will also start around the May time frame using the 777-200ER, while British Airways will use the A350-1000. Fingers crossed that we get a non-stop Asia flight this year or next with all the tech companies moving here.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/new ... rning.html

plnguye1 wrote:

Fingers crossed that we get a non-stop Asia flight this year or next with all the tech companies moving here.

Pretty sure the SR30 freeway will be completed before we see any service to Asia.

MO11 wrote:

plnguye1 wrote:

Fingers crossed that we get a non-stop Asia flight this year or next with all the tech companies moving here.

Pretty sure the SR30 freeway will be completed before we see any service to Asia.

Yep. There have been a lot of people wishing for a route to Asia on this forum for 15+ years. Tech companies or not, I wouldn't be surprised if it took another 15 years. Covid alone has set it back years, never mind all of the other factors that have kept it from happening.

MO11 wrote:

Pretty sure the SR30 freeway will be completed before we see any service to Asia.

It will happen sooner than you think.

Taiwan Semiconductor (TSMC) is building their $12 billion chip manufacturing facility in Phoenix. It will be their largest facility outside of Asia. This comes on the heels of Intel investing $20 billion on two expansion projects.

When completed, the metro Phoenix area will be home to Intel’s largest chip manufacturing center in the world as well as TSMC largest facility outside Asia. For those who are not familiar with TSMC, it has a market cap 3X the size of Intel.

This doesn’t even begin to address the EV / AV companies that have HQ’s or large presences here now such as Lucid, Nikola, and Waymo.

It’s pretty much a lock Phoenix will have direct Asia service once both facilities are completed.

MrPeanut wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Pretty sure the SR30 freeway will be completed before we see any service to Asia.

It will happen sooner than you think.

Taiwan Semiconductor (TSMC) is building their $12 billion chip manufacturing facility in Phoenix. It will be their largest facility outside of Asia. This comes on the heels of Intel investing $20 billion on two expansion projects.

When completed, the metro Phoenix area will be home to Intel’s largest chip manufacturing center in the world as well as TSMC largest facility outside Asia. For those who are not familiar with TSMC, it has a market cap 3X the size of Intel.

It’s pretty much a lock Phoenix will have direct Asia service once both facilities are completed.

Why though? Are there going to be 100+ people flying back and forth because there's a factory? Most likely no. Without a substantial corporate contract, it wouldn't even be a factor, because without it, such a flight is neither sustainable nor profitable.