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SQ22
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Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:11 pm

Welcome to the Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread 2022. Please continue your discussion and to post your news below.

Link to previous thread:

DTW Detroit Aviation Thread - 2021
 
jplatts
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:01 pm

WN is going to be completely dropping DTW-HOU nonstop service on 6/3/2022, but WN is likely dropping DTW-HOU nonstop service (along with some other routes) due to the fleet shortages that WN is facing due to the delays in getting the 737 MAX 7 into service.

IAH will still have nonstop service out of DTW on DL, UA, and NK after WN discontinues DTW-HOU nonstop service.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am

Woo! The DTW thread resurrected itself in 2021 and made it to 2022..

The Midfield / NW Worldgateway / McNamara Terminal celebrates its 20th anniversary in February. Hard to believe what still is a very modern, clean, design has aged very well over the past two decades. Also 20 years of the 4th parallel runway (4L/22R), that already had a complete rebuild a few years ago.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:53 am

jplatts wrote:
WN is going to be completely dropping DTW-HOU nonstop service on 6/3/2022, but WN is likely dropping DTW-HOU nonstop service (along with some other routes) due to the fleet shortages that WN is facing due to the delays in getting the 737 MAX 7 into service.

IAH will still have nonstop service out of DTW on DL, UA, and NK after WN discontinues DTW-HOU nonstop service.

What has been the longevity of service for WN on DTW - DAL & HOU ?
 
jplatts
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:07 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
What has been the longevity of service for WN on DTW - DAL & HOU ?


WN had operated DTW-DAL nonstop service from August 2015 through January 2020.

WN had operated DTW-HOU nonstop service from March 2021 through June 2022.
 
umichman
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:25 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
jplatts wrote:
WN is going to be completely dropping DTW-HOU nonstop service on 6/3/2022, but WN is likely dropping DTW-HOU nonstop service (along with some other routes) due to the fleet shortages that WN is facing due to the delays in getting the 737 MAX 7 into service.

IAH will still have nonstop service out of DTW on DL, UA, and NK after WN discontinues DTW-HOU nonstop service.

What has been the longevity of service for WN on DTW - DAL & HOU ?


I see MSP-DAL is also ending on June 3rd. I recall WN dropped ATL-DTW/MSP in June of 2019. WN doesn't seem to have much luck going up against DL in MSP and DTW.
 
jplatts
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:28 am

umichman wrote:
I see MSP-DAL is also ending on June 3rd.


WN is also dropping HOU-CVG/MKE/MSP nonstop service on 6/3/2022 in addition to DTW-HOU and DAL-MSP nonstop service.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:08 am

Here's my take on it:

WN has a very niche value-prop in markets like DTW & MSP. DL has a near-monopoly on the frequent fliers / premium traffic out of those markets. DL has superior elite benefits, schedule, service, etc. than what WN offers. Going down to the next-tier, DL has a good portion of the semi-frequent travelers too, that with the AMEX credit card gets free bags and quasi-lower tier elite benefits. On the bottom end, you have NK at DTW and SY at MSP that control the ULCC market have loyalty and a offer nonstops of most key leisure markets.

So WN gets left with this small slice of the market. They offer nothing to compete for premium traffic. They have to compete against the ULCCs. Their main value prop is bags fly free and less of the ala-carte pricing than the ULCCs. The lack of change fees was a differentiator, but everyone has waived those during the pandemic. They price similar to the legacies these days and the only real differentator left these days is they have somewhat lower last-minute fares than the legacies. However, so do the ULCCs.

DTW & MSP have alot of outbound leisure traffic, but not a lot of inbound leisure traffic. So they end up pretty much relegated to being a niche player in these markets.
 
jplatts
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:58 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
WN has a very niche value-prop in markets like DTW & MSP. DL has a near-monopoly on the frequent fliers / premium traffic out of those markets. DL has superior elite benefits, schedule, service, etc. than what WN offers. Going down to the next-tier, DL has a good portion of the semi-frequent travelers too, that with the AMEX credit card gets free bags and quasi-lower tier elite benefits. On the bottom end, you have NK at DTW and SY at MSP that control the ULCC market have loyalty and a offer nonstops of most key leisure markets.


One thing differentiating WN from DL, NK, and SY on routes such as DTW-HOU, ATL-AUS/DAL/HOU, MSP-AUS/DAL/DEN/HOU, LAX-DEN/HOU/LAS, LGA-DAL/HOU, SLC-DAL/DEN/HOU, and SEA-DEN/LAS (and previously on DTW-DAL, BOS-DAL, and SEA-HOU) is that WN was offering connections through AUS, DAL, DEN, HOU, and LAS to some smaller Texas markets that aren't served by DL, NK, or SY such as AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF.

AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF will all still have 1-stop connecting service from both DTW and MSP through DFW on AA, even after WN discontinues DTW-HOU and MSP-DAL/HOU nonstop service. MSP will also have 1-stop connectivity in both directions onto WN and UA DEN-AMA/LBB/MAF nonstop flights after WN drops MSP-DAL/HOU nonstop service.

There will always be some travelers who do need to connect from DTW to smaller Texas markets that don't have DL service such as ABI, AMA, CRP, LRD, LBB, MAF, and SJT, but these travelers will continue to have 1-stop connecting options to these smaller Texas markets through DFW on AA.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:09 am

DTW is arguably WN's weakest market; during the winter, they'll be operating as few as 8 midweek departures - by far the largest (%) drop in pre-COVID capacity. The local business community has long rejected WN. In the late 1990s, WN was committed to growing DTW, and even spent its own money to extend Concourse A, even as DTW/NW was ready to open the Midfield Terminal. But instead of embracing WN, the local business community pushed tens of millions of dollars toward ProAir at DET and ultimately, WN ended up with fewer peak day departures in the 2000s than in the 1990s.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:24 am

I don't think Southwest having operations at City Airport endeared them with the traveling public.
The eastside was the wild west back then. The kind of environment that would make their clientele uneasy traveling to and from the airport.

There were several instances where the smoke from burning buildings interfered with operations.
IIRC, there were also several instances where shots were fired into the air in the area when aircraft were operating.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:11 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
I don't think Southwest having operations at City Airport endeared them with the traveling public.
The eastside was the wild west back then. The kind of environment that would make their clientele uneasy traveling to and from the airport.

There were several instances where the smoke from burning buildings interfered with operations.
IIRC, there were also several instances where shots were fired into the air in the area when aircraft were operating.


Fair points, but the local business community (lead by General Motors) pumped tens of millions into ProAir after WN exited DET. I suspect that WN's model -- no premium cabin, open seating, casual attitude -- just doesn't bond well with the legacy, conservative business culture in Metro Detroit.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:21 am

I mean IDK....WN left DET what is now 28 years ago....
I'm in my early 40s and my only recollection of WN at DET was the planes on low finals over my house growing up in Troy.
No one remember that.

Heck, almost no one probably even remembers ProAir but av-geeks like us on this forum.

The reality is that besides obviously DL having the schedule/loyalty/premium product/corporate contracts, the next best airlines for coverage to where most people want to fly out of DTW are NK & AA. WN just doesn't do much since other than a few seasonal and/or Saturday only flights to FL, they don't offer service in the biggest leisure markets from DTW. They will/would never be that relevant in DTW unless they went "all-in" on Florida markets that DL & NK have pretty much locked-up at this point.

At the end of the day, who cares. It some markets WN is big and NK doesn't exist and vice-versa.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:00 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I mean IDK....WN left DET what is now 28 years ago....
I'm in my early 40s and my only recollection of WN at DET was the planes on low finals over my house growing up in Troy.
No one remember that.

Heck, almost no one probably even remembers ProAir but av-geeks like us on this forum.

The reality is that besides obviously DL having the schedule/loyalty/premium product/corporate contracts, the next best airlines for coverage to where most people want to fly out of DTW are NK & AA. WN just doesn't do much since other than a few seasonal and/or Saturday only flights to FL, they don't offer service in the biggest leisure markets from DTW. They will/would never be that relevant in DTW unless they went "all-in" on Florida markets that DL & NK have pretty much locked-up at this point.

At the end of the day, who cares. It some markets WN is big and NK doesn't exist and vice-versa.


Well, that's not really my point. Metro Detroit was and still is a very conservative business environment. For example, until recently it was one of the last markets Big 4 required a business professional dress code - and even now its business casual policy means you can lose the tie while at your desk. WN's casual style clearly didn't bond well with the market. Meanwhile, NK developed a following by offering rock bottom fares with a product that was no worse than NW's. I'm still stunned by how many people are surprised by NK's current product, because it's not what they "remembered" - even though it's been true for 15 years or so. Just part of the culture, I guess - the same reason the market clings to local Coney Islands, whereas premium fast casual dominates the rest of the nation.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:19 am

IDK as some who started out in the Big 4 and in auto, I would agree with a lot of that up through about 2015, but a lot of the good 'ole boys, mad-men, mentality has changed a lot in the past ~5 years and finally gotten out of the 1950s. But yes, I would agree with your sentiment in the past.

Moot point now, as I'm not really sure what the recovery trajectory is for the Metro Detroit business climate, and particularly travel is going into 2022.

I was in the Ren Cen and downtown a few times in late 2021 and it was an absolute ghost town. Most large corporate offices still are at super low occupancy levels these days as much are still WFH.

Most small / medium businesses and manufacturers are back in offices, but big companies not so much these days.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I mean IDK....WN left DET what is now 28 years ago....
I'm in my early 40s and my only recollection of WN at DET was the planes on low finals over my house growing up in Troy.

I used to watch WN flying to DET below the jets turning for the DTW 21 R approach. This was before runway 22R opened.
Then watching the General Aviation aircraft flying under WN.
Not a lot of room if somebody made a mistake.

With 22R open it's rare to have DTW bound traffic make it north to 12 Mile.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:53 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I mean IDK....WN left DET what is now 28 years ago....

Time does heal many wounds.
I think the DET gig is best considered as a wasted opportunity for WN.
As opposed to building up DTW operations instead.
But clearly it isn't an issue for them.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:15 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
I don't think Southwest having operations at City Airport endeared them with the traveling public.
The eastside was the wild west back then. The kind of environment that would make their clientele uneasy traveling to and from the airport.

There were several instances where the smoke from burning buildings interfered with operations.
IIRC, there were also several instances where shots were fired into the air in the area when aircraft were operating.


Please, let's quit with the the wild west theme.

The main issue with DET was the short runway. Some WN flights were capacity restricted in order to use the runway. The city was working to expand the runway, but the only viable option was to move a cemetery. After the public outcry, the runway expansion was cancelled. Shortly thereafter, WN left.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:29 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
Please, let's quit with the the wild west theme.

The main issue with DET was the short runway. Some WN flights were capacity restricted in order to use the runway. The city was working to expand the runway, but the only viable option was to move a cemetery. After the public outcry, the runway expansion was cancelled. Shortly thereafter, WN left.

Crime whether real or perceived, was an issue with the eastside back then.
Especially with the clientele that would fly WN.

If the runway length was a real problem, why did WN start operations there in the first place?
Your best bargaining chip is to agree to move there after the runway is lengthened.
They saw opportunity there. But WN was wrong.
That's why they left.

edit to add this article link: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/05/19/Southwest-Airlines-to-pull-out-of-Detroit-City-Airport/5937737784000/
Also to add I realize the runway length was always mentioned as a factor.
The reduction of 15 DET flights added 10 to DTW giving 16 flights there. I think that kind of speaks that capacity wasn't an issue.
If anyone knows of DET load factors, that would be good info to know.
 
jplatts
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:53 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
DTW is arguably WN's weakest market; during the winter, they'll be operating as few as 8 midweek departures - by far the largest (%) drop in pre-COVID capacity. The local business community has long rejected WN. In the late 1990s, WN was committed to growing DTW, and even spent its own money to extend Concourse A, even as DTW/NW was ready to open the Midfield Terminal. But instead of embracing WN, the local business community pushed tens of millions of dollars toward ProAir at DET and ultimately, WN ended up with fewer peak day departures in the 2000s than in the 1990s.


One issue that WN previously had in the Detroit market (and other markets outside of TX/AR/LA/NM/OK that had WN service prior to 2007) was that the through-ticketing restrictions of the Wright Amendment that were in effect prior to the enactment of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 previously prohibited WN from selling connecting flights to DAL from states that WN could not serve nonstop from DAL. WN had offered connections to DAL from DTW after the enactment of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, and WN also operated DAL-DTW nonstop service between August 2015 and January 2020.

Another issue that WN previously had in the Detroit market was that there were major markets such as ATL, CLT, and MSP that didn't have WN service 15 years ago, but WN started service out of MSP almost 13 years ago and WN inherited ATL and CLT through the WN-FL merger. WN also now has 1-stop connecting service to ATL, CLT, and MSP from DTW.

One advantage that WN had over DL in DTW after adding DTW-DAL nonstop service in August 2015 but prior to dropping DTW-DAL nonstop service in January 2020 were the connections that WN was offering through DAL to smaller Texas markets that don't have DL service such as AMA, LBB, and MAF.

WN also currently has a similar advantage over DL on DTW-HOU with the connections that WN is offering through HOU to smaller Texas markets such as CRP and MAF that don't have DL service, even though WN is going to be dropping DTW-HOU nonstop service in June 2022.

DTW can likely support the return of WN DTW-DAL nonstop service with DTW being one of the top destinations traveled to from DAL on WN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic that isn't currently served nonstop from DAL along with demand having recovered on other WN nonstop routes out of DAL.

DTW can also likely support the return of daily nonstop service to LAS on WN with (a) the strong load factors that WN was getting on DTW-LAS 3 years ago prior to WN dropping DTW-LAS nonstop service to Saturday-only in June 2019 and (b) the additional connecting opportunities that are now there through LAS to Hawaii, EUG, FAT, LGB, PSP, and SBA on WN.
 
graham697
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:25 pm

Random, but could Avelo maybe make some headway at DET? I know the runway is still materially shorter than HVN, but they seem to be building a niche in using smaller under utilized airports.
 
Seat1F
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:32 pm

I see RJ is still running some nonstops between DTW and AMM. This seems unusual for the winter months. Didn't RJ historically only run nonstop service in the summer months and then via YUL in the winter? There is actually a nonstop inbound from AMM right now.
Why the change? Anyone know?
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:44 pm

I think another factor that really hurt WN in Detroit, and some of their other short haul markets, is a combination of higher speed limits and tighter post-9/11 security at airports.

When WN began serving Detroit, the speed limit on I-94 between Detroit and Chicago was 55 MPH, strictly enforced. Now, even if you're going 75 MPH, you're unlikely to get a ticket. Also, pre-9/11, you never had to worry about waiting in line for security; you'd always be able to get through security in less than 5 minutes.

In the 1980s and 1990s, many leisure travelers would take WN from Detroit to Chicago just to spend the weekend shopping and going to nightclubs. Now, far more people will drive between the two cities because the combinations of faster speeds on I-94 and longer waits to clear security at DTW and MDW mean people save far less time by flying than they did 30 years ago.

Yes, a lot of people don't have to worry about security lines because they have Pre Check or Clear, but these people are also more likely to choose DL if they're flying to Chicago because they are Sky Miles members.
 
iluvairplanes99
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:26 pm

graham697 wrote:
Random, but could Avelo maybe make some headway at DET? I know the runway is still materially shorter than HVN, but they seem to be building a niche in using smaller under utilized airports.


I was thinking the same about Breeze, I doubt they would but I think it could be a nice northern base for them… although I’m not sure the infrastructure is there to support. Would be cool to see.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:45 pm

DET is dead for commercial service. It would not be good for anyone. There is no point either, especially with ample landside and airside capacity and ample supporting infrastructure at DTW.

DET's runway is not safe for modern commercial aircraft, period. The runway length at 5,000 ft is a major obstacle, but also the width as it is only 100 ft wide instead of 150 ft found at almost at every other commercial airport in the country. I can't think of another airport, even small market airports that only have RJ service that has a 100 ft. wide runway.

So, DET needs a new runway. The terminal has been vacant and basically used for GA / office purposes for decades. No jet bridges. No TSA. No meaningful parking. No rental cars. No concessions. No nothing.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:56 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DET is dead for commercial service. It would not be good for anyone. There is no point either, especially with ample landside and airside capacity and ample supporting infrastructure at DTW.

DET's runway is not safe for modern commercial aircraft, period. The runway length at 5,000 ft is a major obstacle, but also the width as it is only 100 ft wide instead of 150 ft found at almost at every other commercial airport in the country. I can't think of another airport, even small market airports that only have RJ service that has a 100 ft. wide runway.

So, DET needs a new runway. The terminal has been vacant and basically used for GA / office purposes for decades. No jet bridges. No TSA. No meaningful parking. No rental cars. No concessions. No nothing.


100% true, plus DET isn't connected to the Detroit area's freeway system, which requires motorists to drive through some of Detroit's bleakest neighborhoods to get to / from I-94. The run down neighborhoods around DET also mean people, especially women, would be reluctant to park their cars at DET.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:08 pm

Rumor is the new A43 Sky Club will be converted to a “Delta One” lounge (similar to UAs Polaris clubs) at some point.

https://viewfromthewing.com/detroit-get ... ss-lounge/
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:03 pm

Yeah that rumor actually was going around on another thread on here in regards to a new Skyclub at JFK and how some clubs at gateway hubs could become PS clubs.

I am guessing they probably will at some point but I am guessing that is at least 2023 timeframe at the earliest.

I think near term this will allow them to do renovations / refresh in portions of the main club and divert some capacity to the A43 club
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:45 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah that rumor actually was going around on another thread on here in regards to a new Skyclub at JFK and how some clubs at gateway hubs could become PS clubs.

I am guessing they probably will at some point but I am guessing that is at least 2023 timeframe at the earliest.

I think near term this will allow them to do renovations / refresh in portions of the main club and divert some capacity to the A43 club


That would make sense. In the main club, the whole adult beverage area needs a remodel, with the apparent permanent switch from self serve drinks to bartender service. It would help further if the self serve soft drinks were moved to their own area as well… though I am guessing that is obvious and probably all in the works.

Beggars can’t be choosers, but if anyone is reading this thread, the automatic swipe-to-open-door on the bathrooms installed recently in other new system SkyClubs would be a nice touch to the main club as well. :)
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:08 am

Just rebooked DTW CDG of AF and I am noticing that the 359s are replacing the 787s. Nice, especially if you are in Business class!
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:29 pm

Some interesting data that hasn't been discussed in a while is consumer airfare statistics aka PDEW. It looks like the top 3 largest unserved markets from DTW during the pandemic were Pensacola, Reno, and Tucson. I don't see any of these being added by anyone.

I am a little late for predictions this year but I was going to guess Air France would switch to the A350. I think we have a good shot for an announcement on PLAY as well. That's really it, no domestic adds, no crazy international adds, just an Air France A350, Turkish announcing a start date on a 787-9, and PLAY announcing off daily KEF service.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:44 pm

When does AF switch to the A350?
 
mikejepp
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:33 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DET is dead for commercial service. It would not be good for anyone. There is no point either, especially with ample landside and airside capacity and ample supporting infrastructure at DTW.

DET's runway is not safe for modern commercial aircraft, period. The runway length at 5,000 ft is a major obstacle, but also the width as it is only 100 ft wide instead of 150 ft found at almost at every other commercial airport in the country. I can't think of another airport, even small market airports that only have RJ service that has a 100 ft. wide runway.

So, DET needs a new runway. The terminal has been vacant and basically used for GA / office purposes for decades. No jet bridges. No TSA. No meaningful parking. No rental cars. No concessions. No nothing.


Definitely agreed. DET isn't going to get service. Though, there are some airports with 100ft wide runways that get mainline sized aircraft... a few that pop into my head are FNL, JQF, and EYW.

I'd think that if another airport in the Detroit area got airline service, it'd be PTK. More convenient than DTW to a sizable portion of the city and in a fairly well off, populated, part of town. Any chance this could ever happen? Allegiant?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:48 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DET is dead for commercial service. It would not be good for anyone. There is no point either, especially with ample landside and airside capacity and ample supporting infrastructure at DTW.


And FNT, too. Avelo and Breeze could add 100 flights a day next week. There is zero reason for DOT or private investment for commercial services at DET or PTK.
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:07 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DET is dead for commercial service. It would not be good for anyone. There is no point either, especially with ample landside and airside capacity and ample supporting infrastructure at DTW.


And FNT, too. Avelo and Breeze could add 100 flights a day next week. There is zero reason for DOT or private investment for commercial services at DET or PTK.


I get what your point is but the theoretical cap for the current gates at FNT would probably be about 70 flights per day. Especially if you're talking mainline as gates 1,2,10, 11 and the ground board gates can really only do 50 seaters.
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:32 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
When does AF switch to the A350?


One just landed today
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:10 am

dtw9 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
When does AF switch to the A350?


One just landed today


Scheduled? I’m seeing AF378 as a 789

edit: It was the YYZ flight that diverted.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:18 am

The schedule shows 1.5 to 2x daily service for DTW-CDG. On the 2x days, one flight is operated by DL and the other by AF.

On the schedule, I am seeing the 359 as the DL metal for the route, beginning in March (switching over from the 330 which is operating currently). I am also still seeing the 787 on AF metal scheduled through the summer. Wouldn’t be surprised to see AF use a 359, but again don’t see it on the schedule yet.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:43 am

mikejepp wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DET is dead for commercial service. It would not be good for anyone. There is no point either, especially with ample landside and airside capacity and ample supporting infrastructure at DTW.

DET's runway is not safe for modern commercial aircraft, period. The runway length at 5,000 ft is a major obstacle, but also the width as it is only 100 ft wide instead of 150 ft found at almost at every other commercial airport in the country. I can't think of another airport, even small market airports that only have RJ service that has a 100 ft. wide runway.

So, DET needs a new runway. The terminal has been vacant and basically used for GA / office purposes for decades. No jet bridges. No TSA. No meaningful parking. No rental cars. No concessions. No nothing.


Definitely agreed. DET isn't going to get service. Though, there are some airports with 100ft wide runways that get mainline sized aircraft... a few that pop into my head are FNL, JQF, and EYW.

I'd think that if another airport in the Detroit area got airline service, it'd be PTK. More convenient than DTW to a sizable portion of the city and in a fairly well off, populated, part of town. Any chance this could ever happen? Allegiant?

Nope. PTK is not suited for airline service and no one advocating for it, and in fact more would be opposed to it. PTK is a busy GA airport with some cargo ops. There is zero infrastructure for scheduled airline service nor is there any desire to build any of that (e.g., terminals, parking, TSA, concessions, rental carts, ARFF, etc.)
The de-facto second airport for the region, is FNT. G4 is building up is operations there, vacating the hole left with FL/WN left, and now that DL has indefinitely left in the pandemic era. There is zero need or reason to thing ops at PTK would make sense with so much available air-side and landside capacity at DTW & FNT. The reality is for door-to-door, with far superior highway access to FNT, a PTK operation might save 10-20 minutes for anyone in Oakland County. That is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Leisure travels to Florida are not a "JIT" operation. You can wait in TSA lines longer than a few more minutes on I-75 or US-23 to FNT.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:29 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DET is dead for commercial service. It would not be good for anyone. There is no point either, especially with ample landside and airside capacity and ample supporting infrastructure at DTW.

DET's runway is not safe for modern commercial aircraft, period. The runway length at 5,000 ft is a major obstacle, but also the width as it is only 100 ft wide instead of 150 ft found at almost at every other commercial airport in the country. I can't think of another airport, even small market airports that only have RJ service that has a 100 ft. wide runway.

So, DET needs a new runway. The terminal has been vacant and basically used for GA / office purposes for decades. No jet bridges. No TSA. No meaningful parking. No rental cars. No concessions. No nothing.


Definitely agreed. DET isn't going to get service. Though, there are some airports with 100ft wide runways that get mainline sized aircraft... a few that pop into my head are FNL, JQF, and EYW.

I'd think that if another airport in the Detroit area got airline service, it'd be PTK. More convenient than DTW to a sizable portion of the city and in a fairly well off, populated, part of town. Any chance this could ever happen? Allegiant?

Nope. PTK is not suited for airline service and no one advocating for it, and in fact more would be opposed to it. PTK is a busy GA airport with some cargo ops. There is zero infrastructure for scheduled airline service nor is there any desire to build any of that (e.g., terminals, parking, TSA, concessions, rental carts, ARFF, etc.)
The de-facto second airport for the region, is FNT. G4 is building up is operations there, vacating the hole left with FL/WN left, and now that DL has indefinitely left in the pandemic era. There is zero need or reason to thing ops at PTK would make sense with so much available air-side and landside capacity at DTW & FNT. The reality is for door-to-door, with far superior highway access to FNT, a PTK operation might save 10-20 minutes for anyone in Oakland County. That is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Leisure travels to Florida are not a "JIT" operation. You can wait in TSA lines longer than a few more minutes on I-75 or US-23 to FNT.


Although PTK is closer to many parts of the Detroit area than DTW or FNT, it has one major flaw: it's not connected to the Detroit area's freeway grid, and because there are lots of traffic lights on M-59 and Telegraph Road, the drive to PTK is more time consuming than people think. 9 years ago, I flew on Lakeshore Express' short lived PTK-MDW route, just to log both PTK and Lakeshore Express. The drive from my parents' house on the west side of B'ham to PTK on a Sunday afternoon took about as long as the drive from their house to DTW does.

50 years ago, there were plans to make M-59 a freeway from I-94 in Mount Clemens through Pontiac to I-96 in Howell. The western extension of the M-59 freeway would have interchanged with a northerly extension of I-275 which would have extended from Clarkston to I-275's current end point in Novi. Had these freeway extensions been built, PTK would have had excellent ground access not just for people in Oakland County, but also for people in Macomb and Livingston counties, too.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:19 pm

Between all the DTW discussion on TATL & TPAC, one international area not often discussed is international flying south of the border (Mexico, Latin America, Caribbean ).

This winter, DTW is seeing 6 nonstop flights to this area on DL, with 4 to Mexico (MEX, SJD, PVR, CUN) and only 2 to the Caribbean (PUJ, MBJ). No DTW flights to Central or South America. SJU in Puerto Rico also is off the schedule (was offered last winter). Of those 6, only MEX and CUN are offered year round, though MTY is coming back on the schedule in the spring (on AM).

I guess my question is whether DTW will be able to pick up any new nonstop flights in this region for winter 22/23, particularly in the Caribbean or Central America. For comparison, DL is scheduled to serve the following nonstop destinations in February 2022 from other hubs:

Caribbean & Central America (Excluding Mexico & South America)
DTW: MBJ, PUJ
BOS: MBJ, PUJ, STT, AUA
MSP: MBJ, PUJ, SJU, BZE, LIR
JFK: MBJ,PUJ,SJU,STT,AUA,SAL,PTY,NAS,PLS,STI,SDQ,SXM
ATL: a bunch more :)
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:25 pm

IIRC there used to be a flight to GRU on the B763 and maybe A332 for a bit. Not sure if that will make a return.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:34 pm

kavok wrote:
Between all the DTW discussion on TATL & TPAC, one international area not often discussed is international flying south of the border (Mexico, Latin America, Caribbean ).

This winter, DTW is seeing 6 nonstop flights to this area on DL, with 4 to Mexico (MEX, SJD, PVR, CUN) and only 2 to the Caribbean (PUJ, MBJ). No DTW flights to Central or South America. SJU in Puerto Rico also is off the schedule (was offered last winter). Of those 6, only MEX and CUN are offered year round, though MTY is coming back on the schedule in the spring (on AM).

I guess my question is whether DTW will be able to pick up any new nonstop flights in this region for winter 22/23, particularly in the Caribbean or Central America.


Maybe DL will re-start DTW-GRU again someday. I think the route operated from October 2010 to March 2019.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:24 pm

I think the DTW-GRU flight was made possible because of 1) DL’s former partnership with GOL, 2) coupled with some of the automakers former operations in Brazil (much of which no longer exists), and 3) DTW being a somewhat good connection point for South America to Asia flights (obviously Asia demand is down). Given that 1 is not there, and 2&3 are greatly diminished, I doubt GRU returns anytime soon unfortunately.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:54 pm

kavok wrote:
Between all the DTW discussion on TATL & TPAC, one international area not often discussed is international flying south of the border (Mexico, Latin America, Caribbean ).

This winter, DTW is seeing 6 nonstop flights to this area on DL, with 4 to Mexico (MEX, SJD, PVR, CUN) and only 2 to the Caribbean (PUJ, MBJ). No DTW flights to Central or South America. SJU in Puerto Rico also is off the schedule (was offered last winter). Of those 6, only MEX and CUN are offered year round, though MTY is coming back on the schedule in the spring (on AM).

I guess my question is whether DTW will be able to pick up any new nonstop flights in this region for winter 22/23, particularly in the Caribbean or Central America. For comparison, DL is scheduled to serve the following nonstop destinations in February 2022 from other hubs:

Caribbean & Central America (Excluding Mexico & South America)
DTW: MBJ, PUJ
BOS: MBJ, PUJ, STT, AUA
MSP: MBJ, PUJ, SJU, BZE, LIR
JFK: MBJ,PUJ,SJU,STT,AUA,SAL,PTY,NAS,PLS,STI,SDQ,SXM
ATL: a bunch more :)


IMO, I don't think so. I think there's a couple of things at play. First, DL is just not a big carrier in the Caribbean or Central America. That is really AA territory (and B6, NK from a discount airline perspective). Second, DL is pretty clear they go after higher yielding routes, which I doubt the Caribbean or Central America fall into.

With that said, it makes sense ATL gets the service because it's a mega-hub and the connections can fill the flights. My guess is New York gets the service because of it's population. For DTW and the other cities, DL is going to cherry-pick the best routes and leave the rest to connections.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:29 pm

Yep......the morning departures to ATL and the evening returns from ATL during spring break season are always chock-full of people connecting to/from the Caribbean and other sun destinations (e.g, Florida). Lots of tans / sunburns / shorts / flip-flops on those evening ATL-DTW flights from Mid-Feb through April.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:59 am

Not gonna lie but the DTW thread these days is the most realistic and rational one on here these days.

Some of these other city/airport specific threads are getting downright delusional with International aspirations.....
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:07 am

I'm still curious why Delta slings an AMS frequency to KL at other hubs but not DTW. Why AF and not KL?

I'd like to see KL return because I prefer their J product.
 
DaveMetroD
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:23 am

Now many years ago, I took a trip to UVF-St Lucia via ATL.
I was on the first flight out of DTW on Delta to Atlanta.
Good choice since a prediction of a little snow became a foot.
Much delayed leaving DTW, about 2 hours due to ramp not plowed and deicing was not ready.
Delta tried to get a line cut for approach to ATL without success.
However they moved the arrival gate from T to E.
The entire flight was people heading to the Caribbean, many of which were Saturday only.
Delta held the flights they could.
Some they didn't.
Back then the International flights left from E.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Detroit (DTW) Aviation Thread - 2022

Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:20 am

reasonable wrote:
I'm still curious why Delta slings an AMS frequency to KL at other hubs but not DTW. Why AF and not KL?

I'd like to see KL return because I prefer their J product.


My guess is JV contract limitations. I believe a certain percentage of TATL flights (either in total or to/from each others hubs) has to be operated each airline.
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